Vaccines

Mamamads · February 2015

mrspark812 said:

Also I find it interesting that I have not sent peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated.
This is a wonderful point. Why can't my son eat peanuts, which are perfectly safe for him and therefore a good match for him but kids who are not vaccinated, because their parents decided that was the right thing for them, okay to be there when they can be just as dangerous to other kids as peanuts to kids who are allergic? I am one of the "provaxxers" and don't want my children around kids who are not vaccinated until mine are done with their immunizations so they stand a chance if they are exposed but I do my best not to make anyone feel judged. But really why should I have to worry about my child going places? Someone mentioned it's the parents fault for bringing a child in public if they get infected by an unvaccinated child. But why should that child be forced to be a "shut in" and not allowed to go places like Disneyland or daycare or the doctors etc. but I should be understanding that an unvaccinated child has the right to do these things and leave their home with no regard to the safety of others. That doesn't make sense. With that mentality why can't other kids just stay away from peanuts? Ultimately I just want to know if anyone sees the difference and I'm just missing it. My kids who are too young for certain vaccines can't go anywhere, same with the ones who can't medically do it, because the unvaccinated child has the right to go places but mine doesn't have a right to eat PB&J.
You didn't miss anything. That is what the PP stated. That it is not her responsibility to protect the health of others and those with compromised immunities should either stay inside or know they risk getting sick going into public therefore it's their fault if they get sick. So yes your young children who are too young for certain vaccines should not go to Disneyland and you are an irresponsible parent for taking someone at risk to a public place like that.

Nope that is not what I said. I said if you bring an infant to Disneyland and they get ill that is your fault because you should know their immune systems can not take being in an environment like that. But you are correct it is not my responsibility to protect the health of others. To say that your child is more important than mine or that I should risk my child for the sake of others is ludicrous. The truth is your toddler with the constantly running nose and sniffles is just as much of a threat to the child with cancer so really it's time to stop villainizing people when you are just as able to unknowlingly harm someone with a compromised immune system or otherwise.

mrspark812 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

mrspark812 said:

grlplz said:

irelandsangel81 said:
Also I find it interesting that I have not sent peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated.
This is a wonderful point. Why can't my son eat peanuts, which are perfectly safe for him and therefore a good match for him but kids who are not vaccinated, because their parents decided that was the right thing for them, okay to be there when they can be just as dangerous to other kids as peanuts to kids who are allergic?

I am one of the "provaxxers" and don't want my children around kids who are not vaccinated until mine are done with their immunizations so they stand a chance if they are exposed but I do my best not to make anyone feel judged. But really why should I have to worry about my child going places? Someone mentioned it's the parents fault for bringing a child in public if they get infected by an unvaccinated child. But why should that child be forced to be a "shut in" and not allowed to go places like Disneyland or daycare or the doctors etc. but I should be understanding that an unvaccinated child has the right to do these things and leave their home with no regard to the safety of others. That doesn't make sense. With that mentality why can't other kids just stay away from peanuts?

Ultimately I just want to know if anyone sees the difference and I'm just missing it. My kids who are too young for certain vaccines can't go anywhere, same with the ones who can't medically do it, because the unvaccinated child has the right to go places but mine doesn't have a right to eat PB&J.
You didn't miss anything. That is what the PP stated. That it is not her responsibility to protect the health of others and those with compromised immunities should either stay inside or know they risk getting sick going into public therefore it's their fault if they get sick.

So yes your young children who are too young for certain vaccines should not go to Disneyland and you are an irresponsible parent for taking someone at risk to a public place like that.

Nope that is not what I said. I said if you bring an infant to Disneyland and they get ill that is your fault because you should know their immune systems can not take being in an environment like that. But you are correct it is not my responsibility to protect the health of others. To say that your child is more important than mine or that I should risk my child for the sake of others is ludicrous. The truth is your toddler with the constantly running nose and sniffles is just as much of a threat to the child with cancer so really it's time to stop villainizing people when you are just as able to unknowlingly harm someone with a compromised immune system or otherwise.

OMG! YOU JUST SAID IT AGAIN!!! Do you not read what you post?!?!

"I said if you bring an infant to Disneyland and they get ill that is your fault because you should know their immune systems can not take being in an environment like that."

No one should go to Disneyland and catch the measles because there were unvaccinated people there. That has nothing to do with "their immune systems can not take being in an environment like that" No one's immune system can prevent catching the measles of exposed regardless of age. If we were discussing a common cold then ok fine...shame on the parents. They should have known better because "kids are germy little creatures" as you said in a different post. But we are talking about preventable, potentially deadly diseases that are only an issue in today's society because people don't get vaccinated. Plain and simple. Going to Disneyland and catching the measles is not the parent's fault.

But in all honesty you did not just refer to Disneyland. You have referred to parks and daycare as well. Places that it is expected to have young child at. I will be more than happy to go back and find your previous posts stating this once I am off mobile and have access to my computer.

Honestly I could give a rats ass if you don't vaccinate your kid. That's all on you. I think it is reckless and stupid but I can't force you to do anything. I will just keep my kid away from yours. And pray your child doesnt get someone sick or worse kill someone. Thats all I can do. My problem is your attitude about it. It sounds like you have no regard for others. You won't even admit that you are putting others at risk. Instead you place the blame on other parents for taking the risk. That's BS in my opinion. What about the danger and the risk you are creating? I have a friend who doesn't vaccinate...I think she's stupid and reckless too but at least she admits that what she is doing is potentially putting others at risk. She isn't arrogant or ignorant to the fact that her child is a potential walking danger to others.

At the beginning of this thread I respected your decision, didn't agree with it but respected it. Until you blamed others for their kids getting sick. You lost every bit of respect when you made those remarks and then have continued to defend them. It is selfish of you.

Edited to fix typos.

Mamamads · February 2015

@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.

grlplz · February 2015

I'll answer this. I personally don't care if people vaccinate their children or not. I don't feel like someone said that they are protecting my child and that I pray everyone vaccinates so they continue to provide "herd immunity" for my child. Definitely don't feel that way. As far as this peanut butter thing people think they are so clever pointing out. There is most likely children at your kids school who are allergic and should it somehow get to them there is a guaranteed reaction. Sending an unvaccinated child to school is not a gurantee harm when other kids come into contact with them. An unvaccinated child poses just as much of a threat as a vaccinated child to someone with a compromised immune system because even a simple cold could put them in the hospital. Would I feel bad if my child got someone ill? Of course, just as I'm sure you would if your child got someone ill. But unfortunately it's the risks you take sending your child to preschool/school because kids are germy little creatures.

Okay first, I have not been rude, I have tried to understand everyone's point of view, and tried to just learn something from this conversation. So don't insult my intelligence by sarcastically calling me clever. Asking why some kids health is worth more than another's is a fair point. Yes food allergies can be dangerous - I know that from experience. But there is no more of a guarantee that my child will make him have contact with peanuts than there is an unvaccinated child will pass measles (just because that's the one that's in the news right now) onto a child with a compromised immune system. If you put an allergy kid next to another eating peanuts and a child with measles next to one who is battling cancer there is a huge chance the peanuts and measles will be passed on. I simply asked someone to explain to me why. I get peanuts are more common than measles and allergies are more common than cancer but what else? What makes one alright but not the other? They can both be incredibly dangerous but one is considered a right based on parents decision and the other is a flat out no.

Mamamads · February 2015

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.

"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Mamamads · February 2015

grlplz said:

I'll answer this. I personally don't care if people vaccinate their children or not. I don't feel like someone said that they are protecting my child and that I pray everyone vaccinates so they continue to provide "herd immunity" for my child. Definitely don't feel that way. As far as this peanut butter thing people think they are so clever pointing out. There is most likely children at your kids school who are allergic and should it somehow get to them there is a guaranteed reaction. Sending an unvaccinated child to school is not a gurantee harm when other kids come into contact with them. An unvaccinated child poses just as much of a threat as a vaccinated child to someone with a compromised immune system because even a simple cold could put them in the hospital. Would I feel bad if my child got someone ill? Of course, just as I'm sure you would if your child got someone ill. But unfortunately it's the risks you take sending your child to preschool/school because kids are germy little creatures.

Okay first, I have not been rude, I have tried to understand everyone's point of view, and tried to just learn something from this conversation. So don't insult my intelligence by sarcastically calling me clever. Asking why some kids health is worth more than another's is a fair point. Yes food allergies can be dangerous - I know that from experience. But there is no more of a guarantee that my child will make him have contact with peanuts than there is an unvaccinated child will pass measles (just because that's the one that's in the news right now) onto a child with a compromised immune system. If you put an allergy kid next to another eating peanuts and a child with measles next to one who is battling cancer there is a huge chance the peanuts and measles will be passed on. I simply asked someone to explain to me why. I get peanuts are more common than measles and allergies are more common than cancer but what else? What makes one alright but not the other? They can both be incredibly dangerous but one is considered a right based on parents decision and the other is a flat out no.

Sorry I wasn't directing that at you, I have seen that comparison all over Facebook. The reason is because a child with peanuts is more likely to harm someone than an unvaccinated child, that is the difference. You basically said it, allergies are more common than the measles or other diseases in the U.S.

p_and_a · February 2015

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and the vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.

Mamamads · February 2015

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.

As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

p_and_a · February 2015

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.

Mamamads · February 2015

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.

What I am saying is your and the publics idea of herd immunity is a huge misconception. It was founded by a scientist named A W Hedrich who studied the epidemiology of measles in America from 1900-1931 and what herd immunity was based on is the people who were truly immune from a disease by having the disease. The pharmaceutical companies then took that data and applied it to the artificial (if any) immunity given by vaccines. What would have happened if people refused vaccines is several outbreaks would have been avoided that were caused by vaccines and the diseases would have continued to decrease as many were before vaccines even became available. Polio for example from 1923 to 1953, before the vaccine was introduced the death rate in the U.S. Had declined on its own by 47% and in England by 55%. Statistics show similar decline in other European countries as well. When the vaccine became available Europe questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens, yet polio epidemics also ended in their countries. And today other countries with poor nutrition and terrible sewage system who regularly get the polio vaccines STILL get polio. In 1976 Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus polio vaccine(used almost exclusively in the U.S from 1960's-2000)claimed it was the "principal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. Since 1961. In 1992, the CDC acknowledged that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. during this time frame. I have books full of examples of these type of outbreaks with credible citations, most from the CDC. As far as the measles in the U.S, in 2014 there had been 585 cases, no cases of encephalitis and no death. In 2013 there were 189 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2012 there were 54 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2011 there were 22 cases and you guessed it no encephalitis or death. As of March 2012 there were 842 serious injuries following the MMR vaccine and 56 DEATHS. Since 1900 there have been more than 6,058 serious adverse events reported to VAERS. Also keep in mind that only 1-10% of cases are actually reported on this database. Measles can cause blindness, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause encephalitis, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause pneumonia, so can the MMR vaccine. It is time to stop trivializing the negative effects of vaccines just because they aren't blasted all over the headlines and forced into your brain by the media.

The thing is this information isn't easily available because it hurts someone's bottom line to know things like this. Yes it makes it easier to believe these magic shots cured us of diseases and aren't harmful because it makes it easier to continue getting them for your loved ones. The truth is you and anyone else who thinks a) information is not hidden from you b) vaccines are the sole reason behind disease decline and c) that the media isn't incredibly skilled at manipulating you and shutting up people who dare question vaccines or come forward with information discrediting them are living in a fairy wonderland. Open your eyes. So as you can see I give no credit to vaccines, I see ZERO benefit to them so you saying things like "imagine if people refused vaccines or stopped getting vaccines" means nothing to me. I don't picture a disease filled apocalypse with everyone dying because lets face it we live in a time and place where that simply wouldn't be the case.

irelandsangel81 · February 2015

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.

So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.

Mamamads · February 2015

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.

If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely

sschwege · February 2015

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that? It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours. I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely

How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines? @mamamads

irelandsangel81 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely

From my personal teaching experience the kids who are not vaccinated in my classroom are absent with illnesses the most. Im glad your children aren't experience this but to group all non vaccinated children together as being "healthy" is not accurate. I'm also not saying vaccinated kids aren't absent at all or that the vaccinated kids aren't the ones bringing the colds in I'm simply stating that the students who are not vaccinated take longer to recover from illnesses. Based on my personal classroom experience in the past two years where we were notified which students were not vaccinated.

Mamamads · February 2015

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely
From my personal teaching experience the kids who are not vaccinated in my classroom are absent with illnesses the most. Im glad your children aren't experience this but to group all non vaccinated children together as being "healthy" is not accurate. I'm also not saying vaccinated kids aren't absent at all or that the vaccinated kids aren't the ones bringing the colds in I'm simply stating that the students who are not vaccinated take longer to recover from illnesses. Based on my personal classroom experience in the past two years where we were notified which students were not vaccinated.

Ima call bs on that one or perhaps that really is how it is in your school. But from my experience every vaccinated child I have worked with is constantly ill, my vaccinated friends children are always ill as well as my family(cousins, nieces and nephews.) Constantly needing antibiotics, constant runny noses and it is them who takes much longer to recover because their immune systems are weak. But everyone experiences different things and surely we can't make any serious conclusions based off of these experiences. Just know that parents of unvaccinated children wouldn't bat an eye at separate classrooms for reasons I've stated.

irelandsangel81 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely
From my personal teaching experience the kids who are not vaccinated in my classroom are absent with illnesses the most. Im glad your children aren't experience this but to group all non vaccinated children together as being "healthy" is not accurate. I'm also not saying vaccinated kids aren't absent at all or that the vaccinated kids aren't the ones bringing the colds in I'm simply stating that the students who are not vaccinated take longer to recover from illnesses. Based on my personal classroom experience in the past two years where we were notified which students were not vaccinated.
Ima call bs on that one or perhaps that really is how it is in your school. But from my experience every vaccinated child I have worked with is constantly ill, my vaccinated friends children are always ill as well as my family(cousins, nieces and nephews.) Constantly needing antibiotics, constant runny noses and it is them who takes much longer to recover because their immune systems are weak. But everyone experiences different things and surely we can't make any serious conclusions based off of these experiences. Just know that parents of unvaccinated children wouldn't bat an eye at separate classrooms for reasons I've stated.

I just wanted to point out that it's unfair to claim that all unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children, and vice versa, that was my only point. It is in fact true in my particular school the unvaccinated children hold the highest absences. While my vaccinated 3 year old has only needed prescribed medicine (breathing treatments) twice in her life and that was asthma related. And she is exposed to other children with illnesses through various classes she takes and her babysitter.

sschwege · February 2015

@mamamads are you just ignoring my question?

Mamamads · February 2015

sschwege said:

Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that?

It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours.

I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely

How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines?

Small pox had already stopped infecting people in more than 8 out of 10 countries throughout the world when the WHO launched a worldwide vaccination campaign against small pox in 1967. At that time, only 131,000 were reported (in the world) yet they credited their global initiative with eliminating the diseas. Scarlet fever and the plague also killed millions of people and vaccines were never developed for these diseases yet they DISAPPEARED. Several historians credit multiple health activities such as nutrition and sanitation with reducing the incidence and severity of early problematic diseases. These include smallpox, plauge, dysentery, scarlet fever, typhoid and cholera. During the times these diseases were at their peak there was unsanitary and crowded living conditions and it took some time for them to implement street cleaning, trash removal, construct sewage systems, properly dispose of human waste, drain swamps and marshes, purify water supply and clear roads so food could be transported while still fresh. Prior to compulsory vaccine legislation small pox outbreaks were regional and self limiting. The most severe epidemics occurred following mandatory shots. In England from 1870 to 1872 after more than 15 years and a 98% vaccination rate the largest epidemic of smallpox ever recorded maimed and killed thousands of people.

irelandsangel81 · February 2015

Testing...the page is showing someone commented but I'm not able to read the comments. Just want to see if my post shows or if my phone is acting up.

Mamamads · February 2015

sschwege said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that? It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours. I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely

How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines? @mamamads

I wrote out an explanation on this and it somehow evaporated in thin air, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Smallpox had already stopped infecting people in more than 8 out of 10 countries throughout the world when WHO launched a worldwide campaign against small pox in 1967. At that time there were only 131,000 cases worldwide yet the organization still took credit for eliminating the disease. Scarlet fever and the plague infected millions of people, vaccines were never developed for these disease yet the disappeared as well. Several reputable historians credit multiple health activities with reducing incidence and severity of the early problematic diseases including, small pox, plague, dysentery, scarlet fever, typhoid and cholera.These health activities included cleaning streets, backyards and stables, trash removal, construct sewage systems ans properly dispose of human waste, draining swamps, marshes and stagnant pools, purifying water supply and improving roads so food could arrive fresh. Prior to compulsory vaccine legislation small pox outbreaks were regional and self limiting. The most severe epidemic following mandatory shost. In England, from 1870 and 1872, after more than 15 years of forced immunizations and a 98% vaccination rate the largest epidemic of small pox ever recorded maimed and killed thousands of people.This is one of many instances were mass inoculation produced an outbreak, I think I gave an example of this happen with the polio vaccine earlier.

Mamamads · February 2015

sschwege said:
Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that? It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours. I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely
How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines? @mamamads

I wrote out an explanation on this and it somehow evaporated in thin air, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Smallpox had already stopped infecting people in more than 8 out of 10 countries throughout the world when WHO launched a worldwide campaign against small pox in 1967. At that time there were only 131,000 cases worldwide yet the organization still took credit for eliminating the disease. Scarlet fever and the plague infected millions of people, vaccines were never developed for these disease yet the disappeared as well. Several reputable historians credit multiple health activities with reducing incidence and severity of the early problematic diseases including, small pox, plague, dysentery, scarlet fever, typhoid and cholera.These health activities included cleaning streets, backyards and stables, trash removal, construct sewage systems ans properly dispose of human waste, draining swamps, marshes and stagnant pools, purifying water supply and improving roads so food could arrive fresh. Prior to compulsory vaccine legislation small pox outbreaks were regional and self limiting. The most severe epidemic following mandatory shots. In England, from 1870 and 1872, after more than 15 years of forced immunizations and a 98% vaccination rate the largest epidemic of small pox ever recorded maimed and killed thousands of people.This is one of many instances were mass inoculation produced an outbreak, I believe I gave an example of this happening with the polio vaccine in an earlier post.

p_and_a · February 2015

Mamamads said:
sschwege said:
Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that? It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours. I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely
How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines? @mamamads

I wrote out an explanation on this and it somehow evaporated in thin air, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Smallpox had already stopped infecting people in more than 8 out of 10 countries throughout the world when WHO launched a worldwide campaign against small pox in 1967. At that time there were only 131,000 cases worldwide yet the organization still took credit for eliminating the disease. Scarlet fever and the plague infected millions of people, vaccines were never developed for these disease yet the disappeared as well. Several reputable historians credit multiple health activities with reducing incidence and severity of the early problematic diseases including, small pox, plague, dysentery, scarlet fever, typhoid and cholera.These health activities included cleaning streets, backyards and stables, trash removal, construct sewage systems ans properly dispose of human waste, draining swamps, marshes and stagnant pools, purifying water supply and improving roads so food could arrive fresh. Prior to compulsory vaccine legislation small pox outbreaks were regional and self limiting. The most severe epidemic following mandatory shots. In England, from 1870 and 1872, after more than 15 years of forced immunizations and a 98% vaccination rate the largest epidemic of small pox ever recorded maimed and killed thousands of people.This is one of many instances were mass inoculation produced an outbreak, I believe I gave an example of this happening with the polio vaccine in an earlier post.

Sources?

p_and_a · February 2015

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.

What I am saying is your and the publics idea of herd immunity is a huge misconception. It was founded by a scientist named A W Hedrich who studied the epidemiology of measles in America from 1900-1931 and what herd immunity was based on is the people who were truly immune from a disease by having the disease. The pharmaceutical companies then took that data and applied it to the artificial (if any) immunity given by vaccines. What would have happened if people refused vaccines is several outbreaks would have been avoided that were caused by vaccines and the diseases would have continued to decrease as many were before vaccines even became available. Polio for example from 1923 to 1953, before the vaccine was introduced the death rate in the U.S. Had declined on its own by 47% and in England by 55%. Statistics show similar decline in other European countries as well. When the vaccine became available Europe questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens, yet polio epidemics also ended in their countries. And today other countries with poor nutrition and terrible sewage system who regularly get the polio vaccines STILL get polio. In 1976 Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus polio vaccine(used almost exclusively in the U.S from 1960's-2000)claimed it was the "principal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. Since 1961. In 1992, the CDC acknowledged that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. during this time frame. I have books full of examples of these type of outbreaks with credible citations, most from the CDC. As far as the measles in the U.S, in 2014 there had been 585 cases, no cases of encephalitis and no death. In 2013 there were 189 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2012 there were 54 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2011 there were 22 cases and you guessed it no encephalitis or death. As of March 2012 there were 842 serious injuries following the MMR vaccine and 56 DEATHS. Since 1900 there have been more than 6,058 serious adverse events reported to VAERS. Also keep in mind that only 1-10% of cases are actually reported on this database. Measles can cause blindness, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause encephalitis, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause pneumonia, so can the MMR vaccine. It is time to stop trivializing the negative effects of vaccines just because they aren't blasted all over the headlines and forced into your brain by the media.

The thing is this information isn't easily available because it hurts someone's bottom line to know things like this. Yes it makes it easier to believe these magic shots cured us of diseases and aren't harmful because it makes it easier to continue getting them for your loved ones. The truth is you and anyone else who thinks a) information is not hidden from you b) vaccines are the sole reason behind disease decline and c) that the media isn't incredibly skilled at manipulating you and shutting up people who dare question vaccines or come forward with information discrediting them are living in a fairy wonderland. Open your eyes. So as you can see I give no credit to vaccines, I see ZERO benefit to them so you saying things like "imagine if people refused vaccines or stopped getting vaccines" means nothing to me. I don't picture a disease filled apocalypse with everyone dying because lets face it we live in a time and place where that simply wouldn't be the case.

As you so eloquently said in a post, "I call BS." Give me legitimate, proven sources.

mrspark812 · February 2015

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.

What I am saying is your and the publics idea of herd immunity is a huge misconception. It was founded by a scientist named A W Hedrich who studied the epidemiology of measles in America from 1900-1931 and what herd immunity was based on is the people who were truly immune from a disease by having the disease. The pharmaceutical companies then took that data and applied it to the artificial (if any) immunity given by vaccines. What would have happened if people refused vaccines is several outbreaks would have been avoided that were caused by vaccines and the diseases would have continued to decrease as many were before vaccines even became available. Polio for example from 1923 to 1953, before the vaccine was introduced the death rate in the U.S. Had declined on its own by 47% and in England by 55%. Statistics show similar decline in other European countries as well. When the vaccine became available Europe questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens, yet polio epidemics also ended in their countries. And today other countries with poor nutrition and terrible sewage system who regularly get the polio vaccines STILL get polio. In 1976 Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus polio vaccine(used almost exclusively in the U.S from 1960's-2000)claimed it was the "principal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. Since 1961. In 1992, the CDC acknowledged that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. during this time frame. I have books full of examples of these type of outbreaks with credible citations, most from the CDC. As far as the measles in the U.S, in 2014 there had been 585 cases, no cases of encephalitis and no death. In 2013 there were 189 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2012 there were 54 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2011 there were 22 cases and you guessed it no encephalitis or death. As of March 2012 there were 842 serious injuries following the MMR vaccine and 56 DEATHS. Since 1900 there have been more than 6,058 serious adverse events reported to VAERS. Also keep in mind that only 1-10% of cases are actually reported on this database. Measles can cause blindness, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause encephalitis, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause pneumonia, so can the MMR vaccine. It is time to stop trivializing the negative effects of vaccines just because they aren't blasted all over the headlines and forced into your brain by the media.

The thing is this information isn't easily available because it hurts someone's bottom line to know things like this. Yes it makes it easier to believe these magic shots cured us of diseases and aren't harmful because it makes it easier to continue getting them for your loved ones. The truth is you and anyone else who thinks a) information is not hidden from you b) vaccines are the sole reason behind disease decline and c) that the media isn't incredibly skilled at manipulating you and shutting up people who dare question vaccines or come forward with information discrediting them are living in a fairy wonderland. Open your eyes. So as you can see I give no credit to vaccines, I see ZERO benefit to them so you saying things like "imagine if people refused vaccines or stopped getting vaccines" means nothing to me. I don't picture a disease filled apocalypse with everyone dying because lets face it we live in a time and place where that simply wouldn't be the case.

As you so eloquently said in a post, "I call BS." Give me legitimate, proven sources.

This is the second post I wanted to say thank you too...she is constantly giving out numbers and statistics without any sources. In the world of academia she would be deemed uncredible and therefore her statements would be disregarded. Whether it's science, history, anthropology or whatever field you want to choice you cannot make statements such as these with our sold credible sources supporting them.

$10 she says again that all her sources are books and she doesn't want to type everything out. But how hard is it to provide a citation for the book? I wrote a 45 page thesis so I know it is not hard at all.

I think this is probably the 10th time she has been asked for sources and I think she gave a source once after being asked.

p_and_a · February 2015

@mrspark812 Amen lady.

Mamamads · February 2015

mrspark812 said:

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.
What I am saying is your and the publics idea of herd immunity is a huge misconception. It was founded by a scientist named A W Hedrich who studied the epidemiology of measles in America from 1900-1931 and what herd immunity was based on is the people who were truly immune from a disease by having the disease. The pharmaceutical companies then took that data and applied it to the artificial (if any) immunity given by vaccines. What would have happened if people refused vaccines is several outbreaks would have been avoided that were caused by vaccines and the diseases would have continued to decrease as many were before vaccines even became available. Polio for example from 1923 to 1953, before the vaccine was introduced the death rate in the U.S. Had declined on its own by 47% and in England by 55%. Statistics show similar decline in other European countries as well. When the vaccine became available Europe questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens, yet polio epidemics also ended in their countries. And today other countries with poor nutrition and terrible sewage system who regularly get the polio vaccines STILL get polio. In 1976 Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus polio vaccine(used almost exclusively in the U.S from 1960's-2000)claimed it was the "principal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. Since 1961. In 1992, the CDC acknowledged that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. during this time frame. I have books full of examples of these type of outbreaks with credible citations, most from the CDC. As far as the measles in the U.S, in 2014 there had been 585 cases, no cases of encephalitis and no death. In 2013 there were 189 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2012 there were 54 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2011 there were 22 cases and you guessed it no encephalitis or death. As of March 2012 there were 842 serious injuries following the MMR vaccine and 56 DEATHS. Since 1900 there have been more than 6,058 serious adverse events reported to VAERS. Also keep in mind that only 1-10% of cases are actually reported on this database. Measles can cause blindness, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause encephalitis, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause pneumonia, so can the MMR vaccine. It is time to stop trivializing the negative effects of vaccines just because they aren't blasted all over the headlines and forced into your brain by the media.
The thing is this information isn't easily available because it hurts someone's bottom line to know things like this. Yes it makes it easier to believe these magic shots cured us of diseases and aren't harmful because it makes it easier to continue getting them for your loved ones. The truth is you and anyone else who thinks a) information is not hidden from you b) vaccines are the sole reason behind disease decline and c) that the media isn't incredibly skilled at manipulating you and shutting up people who dare question vaccines or come forward with information discrediting them are living in a fairy wonderland. Open your eyes. So as you can see I give no credit to vaccines, I see ZERO benefit to them so you saying things like "imagine if people refused vaccines or stopped getting vaccines" means nothing to me. I don't picture a disease filled apocalypse with everyone dying because lets face it we live in a time and place where that simply wouldn't be the case.
As you so eloquently said in a post, "I call BS." Give me legitimate, proven sources.
This is the second post I wanted to say thank you too...she is constantly giving out numbers and statistics without any sources. In the world of academia she would be deemed uncredible and therefore her statements would be disregarded. Whether it's science, history, anthropology or whatever field you want to choice you cannot make statements such as these with our sold credible sources supporting them. $10 she says again that all her sources are books and she doesn't want to type everything out. But how hard is it to provide a citation for the book? I wrote a 45 page thesis so I know it is not hard at all. I think this is probably the 10th time she has been asked for sources and I think she gave a source once after being asked.

Here are some sources on the information on measles, polio and small pox. Not sure if you consider the World Health Organization or CDC reliable sources though.

No I haven't provided sources for every thing but these are the ones I have handy. You guys can take the time to pick them apart to discredit them or whatever you have to do to make yourselves feel better about this information like I know you will. Because I have never encountered someone (besides my husband and mother) who are open minded enough to realize a lot of what they know about vaccines is total B.S. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else tells you because ultimately you will believe what you want and that is fine with me because it's not my responsibility to change your minds or make you see a different point of view.

Source for 1996 measles outbreaks occurring mostly among vaccinated children. CDC "U.S Childhood Update:Measles."(March 1997)

Source about Dr.Salk. Washington Post(September 24,1976)

Source for the facts about Polio: WHO "Fifty Years of the World Health Organization in the Western Pacific Region-Report of the Regional Director of the Regional Committee for the Western Pacific: Chapter 27 smallpox."

As documented by the CDC and World Health Organization

Bayne-Jones, S. The Evolution of Preventative Medicine in the United States Army, 1607-1939 (Washington, DC: Office of the Surgeon General, Dept. of the Army, 1968) p. 21

Shelton M.H Vaccine and Serum Evils(San Antonio, Texas: Health Research, 1966) p.23 Citing official statistics from England

In 1992, CDC published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. American Academy of Pediatrics, Report of the Committee of Infectious diseases: 1986(Elk Grove Village, Illinois: AAP), pp 284-85

p_and_a · February 2015

@Mamamads‌ I still call bs. You need to apply proper citations for the sources you have listed to your earlier posts. I'm not going to do all the hard work when you're not will to do our due diligence to prove a point.

Mamamads · February 2015

@p_and_a

Here ya go, that's as good as it's gunna get because like I said before it won't change your mind and you'll believe what you want to, I'm done putting effort into this discussion.

Source for 1996 measles outbreaks occurring mostly among vaccinated children. CDC "U.S Childhood Update:Measles."(March 1997)

Source about Dr.Salk admitting his live virus vaccine was the principal or sole cause of polio cases in U.S Washington Post(September 24,1976)

Source for small pox not infecting 8 out of 10 countries prior to the vaccine. WHO "Fifty Years of the World Health Organization in the Western Pacific Region-Report of the Regional Director of the Regional Committee for the Western Pacific: Chapter 27 smallpox."

There only being 131,00 cases of small pox prior to vacines. As documented by the CDC and World Health Organization

Information on what really eradicated small poxes like sewage etc.Bayne-Jones, S. The Evolution of Preventative Medicine in the United States Army, 1607-1939 (Washington, DC: Office of the Surgeon General, Dept. of the Army, 1968) p. 21

The biggest small pox outbreak being cause by the vaccine. Shelton M.H Vaccine and Serum Evils(San Antonio, Texas: Health Research, 1966) p.23 Citing official statistics from England

In 1992, CDC published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. American Academy of Pediatrics, Report of the Committee of Infectious diseases: 1986(Elk Grove Village, Illinois: AAP), pp 284-85

kelckings · February 2015

Edited because my grandma taught me that even in the face of ignorance, if you dont have something nice to say, don't say it at all. Keep up the good provaccine public service ladies. I can't handle it anymore:)

mrspark812 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

mrspark812 said:

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

Mamamads said:

p_and_a said:

Mamamads said:

@mrspark812 This excerpt from a recent article I read titled A Letter to the Parent of the Immunocompromised Child Who Thinks My Kid is a Threat explains it much better than I can.
"Although I sympathize with your situation, pray healing for your child, and wish your circumstance on no one, that does not give anyone the grounds to trump my parental rights. My obligation as a parent is to my children, not yours and I will always (always) put them first. Don't take it personally. I'm just a little tired of my children being used as the scapegoat of emotional arguments and misguided assertions."

Herd immunity is not about making other people's children an obligation ahead of your own; it's about making sure the health of everyone's children is an obligation (which I laid out in an earlier post). Heard immunity reduces the risk of exposure of deadly diseases for everyone in the community, including families who refuse vaccines. However, when too many healthy people forgo vaccinations and vaccination rate drops below 92%, measles (and other infectious diseases) can proliferate. The unvaccinated become kindling for the fire. And it makes it that much more difficult for someone like Benjamin Luzader to have a fighting chance at normal life.

Image posted in the following article.
As I said much Earlier in this discussion herd immunity was founded on the idea of how many are protected from others having true immunity (actually getting a disease) And your idea of herd immunity is putting another child's well being ahead of my own when you say things like "what about the kid with cancer" "what about the newborn who can't be vaccinated" you are essentially saying it's my job/duty/whatever to put something potentially harmful in my child to keep others safe. And as I've said multiple times in multiple ways that is not my responsibility. It's really quite simple.

Death from a horrible disease really isn't that simple. I never said that "my idea" of herd immunity was to put another child's well being ahead of your own. It's about everyone looking out for one another (including those with compromised immune systems). Herd immunity is the idea put forth by countless medical professionals and proven effective through the years.

What would the world be like today if people had refused the polio or small pox vaccine when those diseases were rampant? Without the polio and small pox vaccines (or the willingness to have them administered), we would be having an entirely different discussion.

As I mentioned before in my discussion of measles, the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines.

Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Hopefully anyone who reads this will compare the facts with the unfounded fears and make the right call for themselves and their family.

What I am saying is your and the publics idea of herd immunity is a huge misconception. It was founded by a scientist named A W Hedrich who studied the epidemiology of measles in America from 1900-1931 and what herd immunity was based on is the people who were truly immune from a disease by having the disease. The pharmaceutical companies then took that data and applied it to the artificial (if any) immunity given by vaccines. What would have happened if people refused vaccines is several outbreaks would have been avoided that were caused by vaccines and the diseases would have continued to decrease as many were before vaccines even became available. Polio for example from 1923 to 1953, before the vaccine was introduced the death rate in the U.S. Had declined on its own by 47% and in England by 55%. Statistics show similar decline in other European countries as well. When the vaccine became available Europe questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens, yet polio epidemics also ended in their countries. And today other countries with poor nutrition and terrible sewage system who regularly get the polio vaccines STILL get polio. In 1976 Dr. Jonas Salk, creator of the killed-virus polio vaccine(used almost exclusively in the U.S from 1960's-2000)claimed it was the "principal if not sole cause" of all reported polio cases in the U.S. Since 1961. In 1992, the CDC acknowledged that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. during this time frame. I have books full of examples of these type of outbreaks with credible citations, most from the CDC. As far as the measles in the U.S, in 2014 there had been 585 cases, no cases of encephalitis and no death. In 2013 there were 189 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2012 there were 54 cases, no encephalitis and no death. In 2011 there were 22 cases and you guessed it no encephalitis or death. As of March 2012 there were 842 serious injuries following the MMR vaccine and 56 DEATHS. Since 1900 there have been more than 6,058 serious adverse events reported to VAERS. Also keep in mind that only 1-10% of cases are actually reported on this database. Measles can cause blindness, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause encephalitis, so can the MMR vaccine. Measles can cause pneumonia, so can the MMR vaccine. It is time to stop trivializing the negative effects of vaccines just because they aren't blasted all over the headlines and forced into your brain by the media.
The thing is this information isn't easily available because it hurts someone's bottom line to know things like this. Yes it makes it easier to believe these magic shots cured us of diseases and aren't harmful because it makes it easier to continue getting them for your loved ones. The truth is you and anyone else who thinks a) information is not hidden from you b) vaccines are the sole reason behind disease decline and c) that the media isn't incredibly skilled at manipulating you and shutting up people who dare question vaccines or come forward with information discrediting them are living in a fairy wonderland. Open your eyes. So as you can see I give no credit to vaccines, I see ZERO benefit to them so you saying things like "imagine if people refused vaccines or stopped getting vaccines" means nothing to me. I don't picture a disease filled apocalypse with everyone dying because lets face it we live in a time and place where that simply wouldn't be the case.

As you so eloquently said in a post, "I call BS." Give me legitimate, proven sources.

This is the second post I wanted to say thank you too...she is constantly giving out numbers and statistics without any sources. In the world of academia she would be deemed uncredible and therefore her statements would be disregarded. Whether it's science, history, anthropology or whatever field you want to choice you cannot make statements such as these with our sold credible sources supporting them.

$10 she says again that all her sources are books and she doesn't want to type everything out. But how hard is it to provide a citation for the book? I wrote a 45 page thesis so I know it is not hard at all.

I think this is probably the 10th time she has been asked for sources and I think she gave a source once after being asked.

Here are some sources on the information on measles, polio and small pox. Not sure if you consider the World Health Organization or CDC reliable sources though.

No I haven't provided sources for every thing but these are the ones I have handy. You guys can take the time to pick them apart to discredit them or whatever you have to do to make yourselves feel better about this information like I know you will. Because I have never encountered someone (besides my husband and mother) who are open minded enough to realize a lot of what they know about vaccines is total B.S. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else tells you because ultimately you will believe what you want and that is fine with me because it's not my responsibility to change your minds or make you see a different point of view.

Source for 1996 measles outbreaks occurring mostly among vaccinated children. CDC "U.S Childhood Update:Measles."(March 1997)

Source about Dr.Salk. Washington Post(September 24,1976)

Source for the facts about Polio: WHO "Fifty Years of the World Health Organization in the Western Pacific Region-Report of the Regional Director of the Regional Committee for the Western Pacific: Chapter 27 smallpox."

As documented by the CDC and World Health Organization

Bayne-Jones, S. The Evolution of Preventative Medicine in the United States Army, 1607-1939 (Washington, DC: Office of the Surgeon General, Dept. of the Army, 1968) p. 21

Shelton M.H Vaccine and Serum Evils(San Antonio, Texas: Health Research, 1966) p.23 Citing official statistics from England

In 1992, CDC published an admission that the live-virus vaccine had become the dominant cause of polio in the U.S. American Academy of Pediatrics, Report of the Committee of Infectious diseases: 1986(Elk Grove Village, Illinois: AAP), pp 284-85

Thank you for at providing this. But in the future please include your sources with the post in which you are referencing it on. Again that is how it is done in academia.

From the beginning of this tread I was asking you for sources because I wanted to actually read it and learn yet you didn't. So by not sharing your sources immediately you the therefore discredited yourself. Youre sources may be legit yet you harmed your argument and position by not sharing them with your original posts. Again in the academic world your would not be taken seriously.

I had a professor make a student cry for not providing enough credible sources to support his argument. Granted this professor was an ass but he was dead on when he said the student's paper was a joke because it lacked credible sources. Disclaimer he was the best professor I ever had and I am a 1000x better researcher and writter because of him.

Mamamads · February 2015

@mrspark812 I'm sorry if you can't connect these citations to the information I gave which was literally 4 or so posts up AND I put the facts/information in front of each citation, maybe you should go back to that school you're talking about. I didn't give any statistics or information that warranted citations until the last few pages of this thread but whatever you need to say to discredit the facts I've provided.

jesicabrennan · February 2015

Mamamads said:
sschwege said:
Mamamads said:

irelandsangel81 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 When I first said that I was referring to that situation in particular. And you are right infants shouldn't have to go to Disneyland and get measles but NEWS FLASH there are people from all over the world there, are there not? Also please share the details on them finding out the start of this outbreak was indeed from someone who chose not to vaccinate. Oh that's right they haven't been able to conclusively identify the source of the outbreak. And yes I referred to parks and day cares because someone else brought those up in examples. I do hope being the responsible and outstanding citizen you are that you keep your children at home following vaccines that have live viruses because they are a threat to infants and people with weak immune systems for several weeks, but I bet you don't because CNN didn't tell you. Here is the thing I will break it down real easy and simple for you. My child is what matters to me and I do not need to inject her/him with something I view as poisonous and unnecessary (even if you think it isn't) to keep your or anyone else's kids safe. Who are you to tell me someone else's life is more valuable than my child's? As a mother you should know you will do anything to protect your children from harm and that is exactly what I am doing and I don't just do that by not vaccinating, I have eliminated the typical toxins and crap American families have no problem giving to their children. So excuse me if I don't see it as my job to sacrifice my child for the sake of the public's health but I will take being selfish over harming my children any day of the week.
So if everyone decided to agree with you or suddenly no one vaccinated their children would U feel ur child was more at risk of catching these diseases? Would you be ok with that? It seems like a bit of a Catch 22. Those who don't vaccinate their children essentially rely on the rest of us to continue vaccinations so that their child benefits from herd immunity. In my honest opinion if you are truly anti vaccines then you should be trying to convince everyone not to vaccinate their children instead of relying on our children to protect yours. I truly hope someday they are able to create vaccinated and unvaccinated classrooms. I don't care if that means the unvaccinated kids are discriminated against. Their parents can explain to them why.
If you read my previous post I'm basically saying I don't believe in vaccines nor do I think they are necessary to keep diseases away. So no I don't care if everyone didn't vaccinate, we would be a whole lot healthier as a society if we didn't. Would there still be disease? Of course, there always will be but people won't be dying daily in this crazy apocalypse scenario you envision because death isn't always or even usually the outcome of most of these diseases. I truly hope someday vaccines are exposed for the scam that they are and honesty segregated classrooms are a great idea. So while your kids are shedding live viruses they won't infect mine and while they have their 6 or so colds or other illnesses a year they wont be getting my kid sick. But that's theoretical because my children will be home schooled most likely
How do you explain the erradiction of small pox if you don't 'believe' in vaccines? @mamamads

I wrote out an explanation on this and it somehow evaporated in thin air, hopefully it doesn't happen again. Smallpox had already stopped infecting people in more than 8 out of 10 countries throughout the world when WHO launched a worldwide campaign against small pox in 1967. At that time there were only 131,000 cases worldwide yet the organization still took credit for eliminating the disease. Scarlet fever and the plague infected millions of people, vaccines were never developed for these disease yet the disappeared as well. Several reputable historians credit multiple health activities with reducing incidence and severity of the early problematic diseases including, small pox, plague, dysentery, scarlet fever, typhoid and cholera.These health activities included cleaning streets, backyards and stables, trash removal, construct sewage systems ans properly dispose of human waste, draining swamps, marshes and stagnant pools, purifying water supply and improving roads so food could arrive fresh. Prior to compulsory vaccine legislation small pox outbreaks were regional and self limiting. The most severe epidemic following mandatory shots. In England, from 1870 and 1872, after more than 15 years of forced immunizations and a 98% vaccination rate the largest epidemic of small pox ever recorded maimed and killed thousands of people.This is one of many instances were mass inoculation produced an outbreak, I believe I gave an example of this happening with the polio vaccine in an earlier post.

I just need to point out that scarlet fever, plague, dysentery, cholera and typhoid are all TREATABLE diseases in this day and age and that's why people aren't dying from them anymore (in first world countries)! NOT because they've magically disappeared, my niece had scarlet fever. Measles and polio and smallpox have no treatment this the need for vaccines to these and not the others.

mrspark812 · February 2015

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 I'm sorry if you can't connect these citations to the information I gave which was literally 4 or so posts up AND I put the facts/information in front of each citation, maybe you should go back to that school you're talking about. I didn't give any statistics or information that warranted citations until the last few pages of this thread but whatever you need to say to discredit the facts I've provided.

I never once said i couldnt connect the information you just posted "four posts up" I just said in the future please include your sources with your posts. It makes everything easier for everyone.

And if I'm not mistaken in my last post I was thanking you. I guess saying thank you is a way of discrediting your facts? All I said was your arguments would have been stronger had you included this information from the get go. It would have made this whole go a lot smoother. Again like I said on my last post I genuinely wanted to read your sources so I can know more. But once again I guess that is just wanting to discredit your facts again? But I'm just an idiot who can't read and needs to go back school.

And in fact you did give statements that warranted citations this entire thread. You stated that vaccines shed for a month..I asked for that source, still nothing. You also made statements that are not considered common knowledge. If a statement is not considered common knowledge it then requires a citation. No one needs to cute that the sky is blue because everyone knows that; but if you begin to explain the science behind why the sky is blue you do need to cite that information because more than 50% of people may not know that information.

But once again "maybe you should go back to that school [I was] talking about" because I don't know anything. Yet a 45 page research thesis and a degree in history (a field that is 100% researched based) mean nothing to you I guess.

p_and_a · February 2015

Ladies, does this misguided view sound familiar?

https://boingboing.net/2015/02/08/having-the-brakes-removed-from.html

Scientists may say that brakes save lives, but virtually every car-wreck co-occurs with panicked braking -- did you know that in the old days, cars didn't have brakes? It's true: engine braking was once the norm. And back then, I've heard there were a lot fewer automotive fatalities (and there were none involving brakes, because there weren't any brakes!). Mechanics get paid to service our brakes; they make our cars sick (brakes can warp your rotors) and then charge us money to repair them. Everyone knows that mechanics, as a class, are crooked -- why wouldn't they do this if they could get away with it? The government wants to force you to have brakes, but brakes or no brakes is a personal decision. Do your research and make your own decision, for you and your family.

So I talked to my Mechanic about taking the brakes off my car and I was disgusted by how poorly he treated me. He accused me of being ignorant, when I was the one that looked up how much rotational torque brakes can put on your rotors. He didn’t even know how much torque a rotor can take before being warped!!! He said “rotors are designed to be compressed, that it isn’t actually a problem” just completely dismissing me. Then he had the NERVE to say that my personal choice had consequences, that I would affect everyone around me. Well I’ve had it with him, I’m looking for a new mechanic. The problem is that so many mechanics are bought and paid by the automotive industry that ALL of them are insistent about my car having brakes. Most of them won’t even look at my car for other reasons, saying that a brakeless car could cause damage to their shop and other cars. What a bunch of bullshit, they just don’t like those who believe in alternative braking techniques. Now of course big government is getting involved, saying that I *MUST* have brakes. That this isn’t just about me, and that I could hurt people. What happened to personal freedom? What happened to liberty?

Mamamads · February 2015

mrspark812 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 I'm sorry if you can't connect these citations to the information I gave which was literally 4 or so posts up AND I put the facts/information in front of each citation, maybe you should go back to that school you're talking about. I didn't give any statistics or information that warranted citations until the last few pages of this thread but whatever you need to say to discredit the facts I've provided.
I never once said i couldnt connect the information you just posted "four posts up" I just said in the future please include your sources with your posts. It makes everything easier for everyone.

And if I'm not mistaken in my last post I was thanking you. I guess saying thank you is a way of discrediting your facts? All I said was your arguments would have been stronger had you included this information from the get go. It would have made this whole go a lot smoother. Again like I said on my last post I genuinely wanted to read your sources so I can know more. But once again I guess that is just wanting to discredit your facts again? But I'm just an idiot who can't read and needs to go back school.

And in fact you did give statements that warranted citations this entire thread. You stated that vaccines shed for a month..I asked for that source, still nothing. You also made statements that are not considered common knowledge. If a statement is not considered common knowledge it then requires a citation. No one needs to cute that the sky is blue because everyone knows that; but if you begin to explain the science behind why the sky is blue you do need to cite that information because more than 50% of people may not know that information.

But once again "maybe you should go back to that school [I was] talking about" because I don't know anything. Yet a 45 page research thesis and a degree in history (a field that is 100% researched based) mean nothing to you I guess.

Trust me, me giving sources for every single thing I said wouldn't have made anything go smoother. And props to you for changing the subject so effortless to avoid the things I pointed out. Oh well, at least you have a few small tid bits on the sham that is vaccines and hopefully you can further your research on them. And for the record a lot of things I said should be common knowledge.. You should know your child sheds vaccines that are live viruses. I forget sometimes that people are blinded by the lies they are told and norm they are supposed to follow so I do apologize for not having citations handy for every single thing I know about vaccines. Will work on this in the future to help speed this conversation up.

mrspark812 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

mrspark812 said:

Mamamads said:
@mrspark812 I'm sorry if you can't connect these citations to the information I gave which was literally 4 or so posts up AND I put the facts/information in front of each citation, maybe you should go back to that school you're talking about. I didn't give any statistics or information that warranted citations until the last few pages of this thread but whatever you need to say to discredit the facts I've provided.
I never once said i couldnt connect the information you just posted "four posts up" I just said in the future please include your sources with your posts. It makes everything easier for everyone.

And if I'm not mistaken in my last post I was thanking you. I guess saying thank you is a way of discrediting your facts? All I said was your arguments would have been stronger had you included this information from the get go. It would have made this whole go a lot smoother. Again like I said on my last post I genuinely wanted to read your sources so I can know more. But once again I guess that is just wanting to discredit your facts again? But I'm just an idiot who can't read and needs to go back school.

And in fact you did give statements that warranted citations this entire thread. You stated that vaccines shed for a month..I asked for that source, still nothing. You also made statements that are not considered common knowledge. If a statement is not considered common knowledge it then requires a citation. No one needs to cute that the sky is blue because everyone knows that; but if you begin to explain the science behind why the sky is blue you do need to cite that information because more than 50% of people may not know that information.

But once again "maybe you should go back to that school [I was] talking about" because I don't know anything. Yet a 45 page research thesis and a degree in history (a field that is 100% researched based) mean nothing to you I guess.
Trust me, me giving sources for every single thing I said wouldn't have made anything go smoother. And props to you for changing the subject so effortless to avoid the things I pointed out. Oh well, at least you have a few small tid bits on the sham that is vaccines and hopefully you can further your research on them. And for the record a lot of things I said should be common knowledge.. You should know your child sheds vaccines that are live viruses. I forget sometimes that people are blinded by the lies they are told and norm they are supposed to follow so I do apologize for not having citations handy for every single thing I know about vaccines. Will work on this in the future to help speed this conversation up.

How did I change the subject? I responded to exactly what your post said?

And if you remember I did say I knew vaccines shed, I just said I just had never heard it to last for a month...that is why I asked for your source because it contradicted what I had read and wanted to make sure I know all the facts. And yes things discussed here should be common knowledge but they aren't therefore as the holder of that information you should want to share your resources. It would have allowed people to read the information themselves and make educated decisions. Isn't that what you just said you hope will happen?

But please accuse someone who is asking for more information to be blinded by the lies. That's just makes you sound like an ass.

MeegePVchick · February 2015

Hep B can be contracted from any bodily fluid not just sex or sharing needles.

JennyJensing · February 2015

@mrspark812‌ This person you are going back and forth with is a master manipulator of discussions. Before all of the "mean girls" left, she was shut down several times for trying to start arguments when it wasn't even warranted. Funny that she accused you of changing the subject when that's what she does constantly. She picks and chooses what she wants to respond to and will ALWAYS have the last word. Honestly, after several days, I can't believe this thread is still going. Kudos to you! Edited to fix my tag. I didn't realize TB was having technical issues at the time

petrichor14 · February 2015

For those getting weary of banging your heads against this wall, I wanted to drop a link to a blog post I read recently that sheds a little light on what's going on in the minds of the anti-vax folks. Much as they'll surely deny it, I think you'll find it rings true: https://www.skepticalob.com/2015/01/what-everyone-gets-wrong-about-anti-vaccine-parents.html

(Basically, you can ignore all the bizarre distorting of facts and reference-less claims and supposed shelves of books that never even get named- it's not about the science and it never has been. It's about feeling educated, empowered, and in control, and blinding distrusting authority as a means to build up one's own ego. If it weren't such a deadly serious subject with actual harm being done, it wouldn't merit more than a "bless your heart" and a pat on the head.)

I'll show myself out.

Mamamads · February 2015

JennyJensing said:
@Katie Park‌ This person you are going back and forth with is a master manipulator of discussions. Before all of the "mean girls" left, she was shut down several times for trying to start arguments when it wasn't even warranted. Funny that she accused you of changing the subject when that's what she does constantly. She picks and chooses what she wants to respond to and will ALWAYS have the last word. Honestly, after several days, I can't believe this thread is still going. Kudos to you!

For those of you just tuning in aka YOU. This has been an informative adult conversation with very little arguing as far as vaccine debates go. I've simply answered people's questions regarding my views and reasoning for them. So settle down and stop acting like a wk. And changing the subject constantly? What are you even talking about. Also where was the memo saying we had to respond to every single post or question. Hmm must have missed that one.

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