Vaccines

mrspark812

Ckorines said:

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!

This...I was literally just typing the exact same thing

kelckings

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Mamamads

kelckings said:

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Quick question, how is my healthy child hurting anyone? Nobody has addressed the fact that children or adults who are not vaccinated do not carry every single disease around with them.

asherk

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

THANK YOU. this is everything i wanted to say but was having trouble articulating. i also have a degree in microbiology and genetics, and it completely baffles me as to why people will discredit SCIENCE as something that must be outlandish and false.

Mamamads

Ckorines said:

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!

Strange I didn't see any sources cited? Also please don't believe that there is zero money being made from vaccines that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this issue. I'm not saying this is a huge conspiracy to give everyone cancer and get rich but pharmaceutical companies ARE making money, this is America. Things are done for profit.

kelckings

@mamamads your healthy child isn't hurting anyone and I don't think that you carry every disease around with you. But, the unvaccinated do add to the # of people possible of carrying these diseases that are otherwise preventable.

Ckorines

True. No actual citations, but her degree in microbiology, immunology, and biotechnology gave me a sense of credibility. I have a total respect for professionals who dedicate their lives to this stuff and I don't pretend to know more than them. My husband suffers from a lymphatic auto-immune disease and doctors have warned us of him being exposed to high risk situations. I'm hypersensitive to the spread of unnecessary things. But again, I stand corrected. She did not actually cite any sources.

sschwege

kelckings said:

Mamamads said:

@sschwege‌ The point is by taking your child in public especially to a day care(petridish) you are putting them at risk for getting sick. If you don't see a problem with mingling an infant with loads of people at a place like Disneyland then how is that anyone else's fault but your own? It isn't. They are your kids they are your responsibility. Like I said when mine is ill I would Keep them home, otherwise she isn't harming anyone.

We arent talking about the common cold here, we are talking about debilitating and deadly diseases. I agree at childcare you are at risk for your child getting a snotty nose but not polio. measles, etc. Just a problem I have with your argument here. Also, these deadly viruses have an incubation period just like less deadly viruses such as the cold. Therefore, you may not know your unvaccinated child had the measles until it was already spread to a bunch of infants under 1 year.

And if I may just add, 'debilitating and deadly diseases' which are also PREVENTABLE! 

Mamamads said:

@kelckings‌ I'm afraid you have misconstrued what I was saying. I don't wish anyones child to get sick. Nowhere did I say that. All I am saying is this. If your child is old enough to be vaccinated then under your logic they are protected from these disease/my child. If your child is very young chances are you are avoiding crowded areas full of germs Etc for the most part because you are protecting their weak immune systems. I am also saying bottom line I am not willing to possibly harm or kill my child to be part of the theoretical "herd" and make other parents feel better. People will make decisions you don't agree with or that you believe to be harmful but just by living your life and leaving the house you take risks every day and will be in contact with these people, that's just life. All you can do is what you think is best for your kid and make good choices, what you can't do is tell other parents what choices to make regardless of how beneficial you think it is to your children.

Some daycare centers take babies as young as 6 weeks so your argument about avoiding crowded areas full of germs doesn't hold water.  Oh and the daycare center I am referring to, all 5 of the children infected with measles are under the age of 1. 

JennyJensing

There are some very passionate people expressing some passionate ideas on both sides of this argument. What I don't see, however, are people citing sources for the "arguments" that they are making. I don't claim to know a ton about vaccines, but yet I am a vaccinator. My child's doctor knows what's best for her and is trained to do so. I trust him to do his job and treat my daughter according to the most up-to-date scientific evidence in his field. I wouldn't pretend to know everything about cases of law and defend myself in court either--I would let a lawyer do his job!

No one can ever be 100% right. Whenever I've been medically treated for ANYTHING before, there is a small risk that something can go wrong. But, if a doctor feels that the benefits outweigh the risks, I'm all for it and follow his advice.

Andplusalso:

Mamamads

@sschwege‌ When did I say daycares won't take young infants? I'm saying most people know to avoid taking newborns/infants to germy spots. I'm
not making any argument simply saying it's not my responsibility to keep your child healthy. I keep my
Child home if they are sick and that's really all there is to that. I'm not willing to play Russian roulette with vaccines so that you have a false sense of security. If that makes me a cruel person in your eyes well, I can live with that. But in reality I am just doing what's best for my child even if you think it's harmful.

sschwege

Mamamads said:

@sschwege‌ When did I say daycares won't take young infants? I'm saying most people know to avoid taking newborns/infants to germy spots. I'm not making any argument simply saying it's not my responsibility to keep your child healthy. I keep my Child home if they are sick and that's really all there is to that. I'm not willing to play Russian roulette with vaccines so that you have a false sense of security. If that makes me a cruel person in your eyes well, I can live with that. But in reality I am just doing what's best for my child even if you think it's harmful.

Well when you make statements such as:
"The point is by taking your child in public especially to a day care(petridish) you are putting them at risk for getting sick."

So perhaps people know the dangers of bringing their babies to crowded places and yet still have to bring them to a 'petridish' or what most people refer to as a day care center so they can go to work.  I just don't appreciate you putting the blame on the parents when their children end up sick with the measles.  

Mamamads

sschwege said:

Mamamads said:

@sschwege‌ When did I say daycares won't take young infants? I'm saying most people know to avoid taking newborns/infants to germy spots. I'm
not making any argument simply saying it's not my responsibility to keep your child healthy. I keep my
Child home if they are sick and that's really all there is to that. I'm not willing to play Russian roulette with vaccines so that you have a false sense of security. If that makes me a cruel person in your eyes well, I can live with that. But in reality I am just doing what's best for my child even if you think it's harmful.

Well when you make statements such as:
"The point is by taking your child in public especially to a day care(petridish) you are putting them at risk for getting sick."

So perhaps people know the dangers of bringing their babies to crowded places and yet still have to bring them to a 'petridish' or what most people refer to as a day care center so they can go to work.  I just don't appreciate you putting the blame on the parents when their children end up sick with the measles.  


Well are you not putting them at risk for getting sick? Yes you are regardless of if its to work or go on a trip to Vegas it's still a risk you as a parent place your child in care knowing. The media placing blame on unvaccinated children for this "outbreak" is jumping the gun a bit considering they have yet to identify the source and that immunized people have been affected.

mrspark812

Mamamads said:

kelckings said:

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Quick question, how is my healthy child hurting anyone? Nobody has addressed the fact that children or adults who are not vaccinated do not carry every single disease around with them.

How do you know your child is healthy? With so many of these disease people are contagious prior to showing symptoms.

Measles is contagious 4 days prior to the rash developin. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2014/chapter-3-infectious-diseases-related-to-travel/measles-rubeola)

Polio patients can be the most contagious 7-10 days prior to the appearance of symptoms. (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/poliomyelitis/fact_sheet.htm)

Even the good old common flu can be contagious one day prior to the on set of symptoms. (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/clinical.htm?mobile=nocontent)

Small pox is the only one I just researched that is deemed not contagious prior to the on set of symptoms. And they still could possible run the risk of being contagious right a the beginning of their symptoms which can mirror a really bad flu. (https://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp)

My point being is....you say you keep your kid home when s/he is sick, great good for you that is exactly what you should do. I just stayed home for a week with a sick baby for that exact reason. But your child could be sick with a potential deadly disease and you wouldn't have the slightest idea about it because there are no symptoms. And when you take him/her to the park you therefore endanger the lives of those people (infants, cancer patients, the elderly) that have compromised immune systems. But it's everyone else's fault that they were exposed because they were in a public place?

Mamamads

mrspark812 said:

Mamamads said:

kelckings said:

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Quick question, how is my healthy child hurting anyone? Nobody has addressed the fact that children or adults who are not vaccinated do not carry every single disease around with them.

How do you know your child is healthy? With so many of these disease people are contagious prior to showing symptoms.

Measles is contagious 4 days prior to the rash developin. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2014/chapter-3-infectious-diseases-related-to-travel/measles-rubeola)

Polio patients can be the most contagious 7-10 days prior to the appearance of symptoms. (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/poliomyelitis/fact_sheet.htm)

Even the good old common flu can be contagious one day prior to the on set of symptoms. (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/clinical.htm?mobile=nocontent)

Small pox is the only one I just researched that is deemed not contagious prior to the on set of symptoms. And they still could possible run the risk of being contagious right a the beginning of their symptoms which can mirror a really bad flu. (https://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp)

My point being is....you say you keep your kid home when s/he is sick, great good for you that is exactly what you should do. I just stayed home for a week with a sick baby for that exact reason. But your child could be sick with a potential deadly disease and you wouldn't have the slightest idea about it because there are no symptoms. And when you take him/her to the park you therefore endanger the lives of those people (infants, cancer patients, the elderly) that have compromised immune systems. But it's everyone else's fault that they were exposed because they were in a public place?

Way to blow my initial comment way out of context. I said If you take your newborn child to Disneyland and they get any sort of illness Then I personally think you are kind of an idiot for taking that risk on yourself and then wondering why your child
Got sick. Because most people know not to be shoving their newborn babies into crowds of people from all over the world full of who knows what germs etc. I am talking about that instance in particular of these measles cases. Now in regards to my child being healthy, right now she is. If there is a time she isn't then obviously I would avoid public places. And the thing is your vaccinated child could also be sick with a potentially deadly disease and you not have any clue while they are passing it around because ya know them not being 100% effective and all. People who are predisposed to illness, infants, people with weak immune systems know they are taking a risk when going to these places regardless of who it is Getting them ill.

Sanine

The media isn't covering all of the measels in the US right now. In Ohio there is an outbreak in the hundreds amung the Amish community.
https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015/02/04/disneyland-measles-cases-still-trail-ohio-amish-outbreak-as-largest-in-recent-history/

There was also an outbreak in Florida a few years ago that started at one of the parks in Orlando didn't get passed 5 people. https://www.m.webmd.com/children/news/20150206/measles-theme-parks?ecd=soc_fb_news_taleof2outbreaks

The differences and maybe why we aren't hearing so much about them is the risk they posed for everyone else. The Amish outbreak is just in the Amish community. It shouldn't spread farther than that. And the one in Florida was only between 5 people who exposed hundreds, but because of heard immunity it didn't spread past those 5. I do think the media is sensationalizing more than they need to.

I am for vaccines like I posted earlier, and I don't understand why schools are relaxed on in forcing vaccinations. I was almost kicked out of middle school because my mom kept forgetting to make an appointment for me to get the MMR shot. I got it and was allowed back in school.

Ckorines

@mamamads I don't think you are selfish!!! I think you believe you are doing what is best and that is commendable in itself. No judgment here! We can agree to disagree.

Mamamads

cdseno said:

You ladies are so nice and civil. I for one stumbled upon this and find @Mamamads‌ to be a selfish twat for thinking that she doesn't need to consider the health of the public. Vaccinate your fucking kids! You can't fight science. You don't need to reply. I won't be back to fight your fucking stupidity. #BANHAMMER

Aww you're cute for banhammering yourself.

Mamamads

Haha @moonrisemama called it. There's always someone who can't have a conversation like a big girl. 

mrspark812

Mamamads said:

mrspark812 said:

Mamamads said:

kelckings said:

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Quick question, how is my healthy child hurting anyone? Nobody has addressed the fact that children or adults who are not vaccinated do not carry every single disease around with them.

How do you know your child is healthy? With so many of these disease people are contagious prior to showing symptoms.

Measles is contagious 4 days prior to the rash developin. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2014/chapter-3-infectious-diseases-related-to-travel/measles-rubeola)

Polio patients can be the most contagious 7-10 days prior to the appearance of symptoms. (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/poliomyelitis/fact_sheet.htm)

Even the good old common flu can be contagious one day prior to the on set of symptoms. (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/clinical.htm?mobile=nocontent)

Small pox is the only one I just researched that is deemed not contagious prior to the on set of symptoms. And they still could possible run the risk of being contagious right a the beginning of their symptoms which can mirror a really bad flu. (https://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp)

My point being is....you say you keep your kid home when s/he is sick, great good for you that is exactly what you should do. I just stayed home for a week with a sick baby for that exact reason. But your child could be sick with a potential deadly disease and you wouldn't have the slightest idea about it because there are no symptoms. And when you take him/her to the park you therefore endanger the lives of those people (infants, cancer patients, the elderly) that have compromised immune systems. But it's everyone else's fault that they were exposed because they were in a public place?

Way to blow my initial comment way out of context. I said If you take your newborn child to Disneyland and they get any sort of illness Then I personally think you are kind of an idiot for taking that risk on yourself and then wondering why your child
Got sick. Because most people know not to be shoving their newborn babies into crowds of people from all over the world full of who knows what germs etc. I am talking about that instance in particular of these measles cases. Now in regards to my child being healthy, right now she is. If there is a time she isn't then obviously I would avoid public places. And the thing is your vaccinated child could also be sick with a potentially deadly disease and you not have any clue while they are passing it around because ya know them not being 100% effective and all. People who are predisposed to illness, infants, people with weak immune systems know they are taking a risk when going to these places regardless of who it is Getting them ill.

My response had absolutely nothing to do with your original post...I was speaking directly to your question "how is my healthy kid hurting anyone?" And I answered by saying s/he can hurt people by not being vaccinated and possibly being contagious. But you still did not answer my question....how do you know your child is healthy? Do you do daily blood tests to determine s/he is not sick? You have no way of knowing. At least my child is 90% more likely not to be carrying a potentially deadly disease. Yes it is possible that my vaccinated child could have measles or Polio or whatever and get someone else sick because she doesn't have symptoms but the chances of that are way less than your child. I feel comfortable saying that there is at least a 90% chance my child is perfectly healthy. Can you say that?

In my personal opinion bring a a child who not vaccinated to a public place like a park is just like bringing a loaded gun to that same park. There is a chance that nothing happens because the gun is carried by a responsible citizen with years of training in handling guns. Your child could be perfectly healthy when you enter that park. Yet all it takes is one time for something to go wrong. All it takes is one contagious unvaccinated child to get the wrong person sick and someone could die. But according to you that person should have stayed home because s/he has cancer and runs the risk of getting sick? Why don't we just lock away all the people who are immune compromised then so they don't get sick?

I told myself I wouldn't get into this but I just couldn't take your arrogance any longer. I believe you are an extremely selfish person who clearly could care less about other people. Shame on you.


Disclaimer: I have nothing against guns. I come from a family of hunters and have been around guns and have known gun safety my entire life. But that's a whole different fight. I was just using it as an example of public safety and welfare.

Mamamads

mrspark812 said:

@mamamads actually I cant fully protect my child even if she is fully vaccinated because most vaccines (it varies) have 10% that the vaccines do not fully protect their child. Although, if everyone vaccinates this rate stays at 10%. I am glad you wouldnt wish to hurt anothers kid, although in my opinion you are hurting everyone, not just kids (cancer pts, the elderly who have weakened immune systems and the chronically ill,etc). We are not JUST talking about infants under the age of 1, although thats obviously my concern since I am goin to have one. Youre right, I cant make anyone do anything but I can however educate others/stand up for what I think is right just as you can.

Quick question, how is my healthy child hurting anyone? Nobody has addressed the fact that children or adults who are not vaccinated do not carry every single disease around with them.

How do you know your child is healthy? With so many of these disease people are contagious prior to showing symptoms. Measles is contagious 4 days prior to the rash developin. (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/yellowbook/2014/chapter-3-infectious-diseases-related-to-travel/measles-rubeola) Polio patients can be the most contagious 7-10 days prior to the appearance of symptoms. (https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/poliomyelitis/fact_sheet.htm) Even the good old common flu can be contagious one day prior to the on set of symptoms. (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/clinical.htm?mobile=nocontent) Small pox is the only one I just researched that is deemed not contagious prior to the on set of symptoms. And they still could possible run the risk of being contagious right a the beginning of their symptoms which can mirror a really bad flu. (https://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/disease-facts.asp) My point being is....you say you keep your kid home when s/he is sick, great good for you that is exactly what you should do. I just stayed home for a week with a sick baby for that exact reason. But your child could be sick with a potential deadly disease and you wouldn't have the slightest idea about it because there are no symptoms. And when you take him/her to the park you therefore endanger the lives of those people (infants, cancer patients, the elderly) that have compromised immune systems. But it's everyone else's fault that they were exposed because they were in a public place?

Way to blow my initial comment way out of context. I said If you take your newborn child to Disneyland and they get any sort of illness Then I personally think you are kind of an idiot for taking that risk on yourself and then wondering why your child Got sick. Because most people know not to be shoving their newborn babies into crowds of people from all over the world full of who knows what germs etc. I am talking about that instance in particular of these measles cases. Now in regards to my child being healthy, right now she is. If there is a time she isn't then obviously I would avoid public places. And the thing is your vaccinated child could also be sick with a potentially deadly disease and you not have any clue while they are passing it around because ya know them not being 100% effective and all. People who are predisposed to illness, infants, people with weak immune systems know they are taking a risk when going to these places regardless of who it is Getting them ill.

My response had absolutely nothing to do with your original post...I was speaking directly to your question "how is my healthy kid hurting anyone?" And I answered by saying s/he can hurt people by not being vaccinated and possibly being contagious. But you still did not answer my question....how do you know your child is healthy? Do you do daily blood tests to determine s/he is not sick? You have no way of knowing. At least my child is 90% more likely not to be carrying a potentially deadly disease. Yes it is possible that my vaccinated child could have measles or Polio or whatever and get someone else sick because she doesn't have symptoms but the chances of that are way less than your child. I feel comfortable saying that there is at least a 90% chance my child is perfectly healthy. Can you say that? In my personal opinion bring a a child who not vaccinated to a public place like a park is just like bringing a loaded gun to that same park. There is a chance that nothing happens because the gun is carried by a responsible citizen with years of training in handling guns. Your child could be perfectly healthy when you enter that park. Yet all it takes is one time for something to go wrong. All it takes is one contagious unvaccinated child to get the wrong person sick and someone could die. But according to you that person should have stayed home because s/he has cancer and runs the risk of getting sick? Why don't we just lock away all the people who are immune compromised then so they don't get sick? I told myself I wouldn't get into this but I just couldn't take your arrogance any longer. I believe you are an extremely selfish person who clearly could care less about other people. Shame on you. Disclaimer: I have nothing against guns. I come from a family of hunters and have been around guns and have known gun safety my entire life. But that's a whole different fight. I was just using it as an example of public safety and welfare.

No I do not do daily blood tests on my child to be sure she is healthy, like your kid she is healthy until she is not. And like your child she runs the risk of getting people sick without me knowing. If it's selfish of me to want to protect my child from harmful/deadly side effects than it's selfish of you for thinking everyone should take those risks to protect your child. Do you feel bad? No I didn't think so and neither do I. I'm doing whats best for my family and no it is not my responsibility to keep your family healthy. I think anyone who says they care about some strangers child more than their own is lying to you, I'm a good person but I'm not a saint. I'm not going to do something that goes against every fiber of my being for the "greater good" especially when I truly believe it is not serving my child or family with any good. Honestly, it sounds like you are being argumentative just to be. If someone is extremely unwell and likely to catch any illness in their vicinity then they would stay home or in a hospital, I mean really.

asherk

@mamamads you keep mentioning 'deadly side effects' and i'm curious...i haven't seen any examples of death that was caused conclusively by vaccines. the worst i have seen have been some severe cases of anaphylaxis due to an allergy to something in the vaccine. there are plenty of examples where people have claimed vaccine immunity, but i haven't seen any that were proven to be definitely 100% caused by vaccines. i guess i'm looking to see if there are any injuries/deaths/etc that are conclusively linked to vaccinations. 

i know the CDC has the disclaimer that in extremely rare instances vaccines can cause death, but i haven't seen much evidence to suggest that that's anything more than a CYA statement.

o_so_in_love

Not trying to spark another controversial debate, undoubtedly there are strong opinions, but is anyone selective in the vaccines they use because they are pro-life?

tibi5

I think the bottom line is that if everybody gets the MMR vaccine (or even just 95%), then measles are essentially eradicated....like they were since the 80s.... It is pretty crazy that due to misinformation being spread, a previously eradicated disease has broken through again.

Mamamads

@asherk‌ here is some of the claims that got approved from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. These were all proved in court to have been a result of vaccines and are just a few over a short period of times You can find more on this if you look into the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program or VAERS. I didn't look at this list for "death" in particular but SIDS is listed as a side effect for some vaccines and I personally know someone who lost their child the morning following routine vaccines.

Mamamads

@asherk

kelckings

@mamamads SIDS has no known cause. It's terrible that she lost her child but plenty of babies die from SIDS not related to vaccines. I don't know for sure what that evidence is but I don't think it's reasonable to post that vaccines can cause SIDS.

asherk

@mamamads thanks for sharing; i'll have to check that out a little bit more (for now my exhaustion is getting the best of me and it's off to bed i go!). sometimes i'm wary of using court cases/settlements as a reliable source, because we americans like to pursue legal action for everything, and people/companies often settle to avoid a lengthy and expensive court battle, but it's good information to have and be able to look through. i'm a scientist; i always need cold, hard, scientific facts before i can really form an educated opinion.

and i'm so sorry for your friend who lost her baby; that's an awful thing to have to go through.

Mamamads

kelckings said:

@mamamads SIDS has no known cause. It's terrible that she lost her child but plenty of babies die from SIDS not related to vaccines. I don't know for sure what that evidence is but I don't think it's reasonable to post that vaccines can cause SIDS.

Vaccines can cause SIDS. It is listed on the insert as a possible side effect. If I can find the insert and which vaccines in particular I will share that. I'm surprised you weren't aware of this to be honest.

asherk

kelckings said:

@mamamads SIDS has no known cause. It's terrible that she lost her child but plenty of babies die from SIDS not related to vaccines. I don't know for sure what that evidence is but I don't think it's reasonable to post that vaccines can cause SIDS.

agreed. SIDS hasn't been conclusively linked to vaccines, or anything else for that matter. from the research that i've seen there's no distinctive correlation to vaccination and SIDS. the best explanation that we have is that, for whatever reason, there's a delay in the development of the portion of the brain that regulates heart and lung function while sleeping (and they've been able to see this through examining the brain stems of children who have unfortunately passed from SIDS).

asherk

regarding SIDS and vaccines, direct quote from the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/sids_faq.html):

"From 2 to 4 months old, babies begin their primary course of vaccinations. This is also the peak age for sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). The timing of these two events has led some people to believe they might be related. However, studies have concluded that vaccinations are not a risk factor for SIDS."

CassHerbert

b

tibi5

Don't you think if there was truly a real correlation betweens SIDS and vaccines, that we would all be advised to avoid them? Doctors aren't evil geniuses trying to trick and kill our children....

CassHerbert

Mamamads said:

Ckorines said:

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!

Strange I didn't see any sources cited? Also please don't believe that there is zero money being made from vaccines that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this issue. I'm not saying this is a huge conspiracy to give everyone cancer and get rich but pharmaceutical companies ARE making money, this is America. Things are done for profit.

Sorry I was writing this at work. I didn't have access to my list of bookmarks I keep on my phone. Most of my knowledge on the subject I pick up reading articles and what I know about immunology from work and school. However, I find this really helpful. It has all its sources listed.https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c

Also, I got disease side effects off the cdc website.

As for Big Pharma, I live in Canada. All childhood vaccines are covered and given to us in school. Beyond that, I get my flu shot for free and my work covers optional vaccines like hep a and b. The pharmaceutical companies are more likely to make money off patients if they are hospitalized vs vaccinated. Vaccines make money but it's considerable smaller than the other drugs they sell. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6307a3.htm?mobile=nocontent
Thanks for calling me out on my lack of sources

CassHerbert

Ckorines said:

True. No actual citations, but her degree in microbiology, immunology, and biotechnology gave me a sense of credibility. I have a total respect for professionals who dedicate their lives to this stuff and I don't pretend to know more than them. My husband suffers from a lymphatic auto-immune disease and doctors have warned us of him being exposed to high risk situations. I'm hypersensitive to the spread of unnecessary things. But again, I stand corrected. She did not actually cite any sources.

I have responded to my lack of sources and citations. I can include my diploma too if anyone is interested. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read my argument. Pregnancy has turned me into a pro vaccine nut ball. I never used to think to much about it. Everyone I knew had been vaccinated. I just knew that that's what people did. I knew how important they were for community health. When I heard that people thought they were dangerous, I couldn't understand why. Why would something that every single kid I went to school with got be bad? We all turned out pretty okay on average. Sore arms mostly. Honestly, pick up a book at the Library... A real scientific book. Stay off Google.... The Internet is a place where you can say whatever you want.

Mamamads

CassHerbert said:

Mamamads said:

Ckorines said:

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!

Strange I didn't see any sources cited? Also please don't believe that there is zero money being made from vaccines that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this issue. I'm not saying this is a huge conspiracy to give everyone cancer and get rich but pharmaceutical companies ARE making money, this is America. Things are done for profit.

Sorry I was writing this at work. I didn't have access to my list of bookmarks I keep on my phone. Most of my knowledge on the subject I pick up reading articles and what I know about immunology from work and school. However, I find this really helpful. It has all its sources listed.https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c

Also, I got disease side effects off the cdc website.

As for Big Pharma, I like in Canada. All childhood vaccines are covered and given to us in school. Beyond that, I get my flu shot for free and my work covers optional vaccines like hep a and b. The pharmaceutical companies are more likely to make money off patients if they are hospitalized vs vaccinated. Vaccines make money but it's considerable smaller than the other drugs they sell. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6307a3.htm?mobile=nocontent
Thanks for calling me out on my lack of sources

I'm not sure how things are in Canada but if a medication or procedure is covered that just means it's being paid for by someone else, in our case insurance companies. The companies making these vaccines are making money that's all I was pointing out because you said they weren't. They don't make and distribute these things out of the goodness of their hearts or for a fun side hobby.

CassHerbert

Mamamads said:

CassHerbert said:

Mamamads said:

Ckorines said:

CassHerbert said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
 Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.

Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!

Strange I didn't see any sources cited? Also please don't believe that there is zero money being made from vaccines that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this issue. I'm not saying this is a huge conspiracy to give everyone cancer and get rich but pharmaceutical companies ARE making money, this is America. Things are done for profit.

Sorry I was writing this at work. I didn't have access to my list of bookmarks I keep on my phone. Most of my knowledge on the subject I pick up reading articles and what I know about immunology from work and school. However, I find this really helpful. It has all its sources listed.https://medium.com/@visualvaccines/graphic-proof-that-vaccines-work-with-sources-61c199429c8c

Also, I got disease side effects off the cdc website.

As for Big Pharma, I like in Canada. All childhood vaccines are covered and given to us in school. Beyond that, I get my flu shot for free and my work covers optional vaccines like hep a and b. The pharmaceutical companies are more likely to make money off patients if they are hospitalized vs vaccinated. Vaccines make money but it's considerable smaller than the other drugs they sell. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6307a3.htm?mobile=nocontent
Thanks for calling me out on my lack of sources

I'm not sure how things are in Canada but if a medication or procedure is covered that just means it's being paid for by someone else, in our case insurance companies. The companies making these vaccines are making money that's all I was pointing out because you said they weren't. They don't make and distribute these things out of the goodness of their hearts or for a fun side hobby.

Oh I am aware. I just don't think that's a huge money making thing for Pharmaceutical companies. I could be wrong on this but I bet they make more money on things Viagra, Hormones, and anti. Depressants

sschwege

Car seat manufacturers make money too, should we disregard their importance because a company is making a profit?

My understanding is that while pharmaceutical companies make money off their vaccines it isn't much when you compare it to some of the other drugs they turn out.  What does it matter if they make money, wouldn't they have to, or why would they do it?  It doesn't dimish their importance!

tibi5

But medical researchers do work tirelessly to develop cures or immunity to diseases that kill people. There are scientists and doctors devoting their lives to trying to find cures for cancer, and vaccines for diseases that wipe out populations (Ebola!). I am not so cynical to believe that they are doing that purely for money, or that they could care less about dangerous side effects. The conspiracy theories behind the anti-vaccine movement are mind boggling.

sschwege

tibi5 said:

But medical researchers do work tirelessly to develop cures or immunity to diseases that kill people. There are scientists and doctors devoting their lives to trying to find cures for cancer, and vaccines for diseases that wipe out populations (Ebola!). I am not so cynical to believe that they are doing that purely for money, or that they could care less about dangerous side effects. The conspiracy theories behind the anti-vaccine movement are mind boggling.

Amen to this!

The CDC also encourages good hand washing practices as a way of avoiding illnesses.  Maybe they are in bed with the soap companies!

mrspark812

If we really think about it big Pharm would make more money off of medication for the symptoms of these disease than they would make by completely eradicating them. If there are no more disease then they wouldn't make a dime because no one would need medicine any more.