Vaccines

Mamamads · February 2015

mrspark812 said:
If we really think about it bug Pharm would make more money off of medication for the symptoms of these disease than they would make by completely eradicating them. If there are no more disease then they wouldn't make a dime because no one would need medicine any more.

But somehow among all these vaccines and medications we are sicker than ever. Autoimmune diseases, allergies, cancers, asthma to name a few. Big pharma is making more money by keeping everyone ill.

And @sschwege‌ the only reason I mentioned them making money is because someone flat out said they didn't, which is a ludicrous statement.

grlplz · February 2015

Mamamads said:

I studied this in university and have a degree in microbiology, immunology, & biotechnology. I can't even fathom why people think vaccines are harmful or unnecessary. There have been large amounts Scientific studies and case studies that monitor the short term and long term effects of vaccines. The studies quoted by anti vaccine propagandy websites have been thoroughly disproven or are based on pseudoscience. There has been an expontential decrease in the mortalilty and incidence rate of most preventable chilhood diseases since the introduction of vaccines starting in the 1950s. Mortality rates are a poor way to judge vaccine effieciency.
Life Long Side effects of Polio: Paralysis
Life Long Side Effects of Measles: hearing loss and mental issues
Life Long Side Effects of Mumps: Infertility
The list goes on......I don't think that the miniscule change of your child having a reaction to the vaccine should be enough to prevent you from seriously considering the full schedule of vaccinations. I also believe that a healthy community is important. People think this is a personal choice but it is not! I know tons of people with compromised immune systems: Pregnant women, seniors, babies, people with auto-immune disorders such as lupus, cancer patients, etc. There are also people that do not vaccinate due to allergies to ingredients in the vaccines. I have heard of people dealing with it as an adult because they would rather be vaccinated than have an allergic reaction. The point is that we don't live miles apart, we live right next door to eachother. Our families use the same schools, grocery stores, banks, hospitals....There is no way to avoid viruses and bacteria in these situations. A healthy community with good vaccination records will not have a problem with preventable diseases. All in all, I would recommend that you check your vaccine titres as well. Chickenpox or rubella can lead to miscarriage or damage to your baby. I even recommend the flu shot while pregnant. My aunt got pneumonia while pregnant and spent a week in the hospital and went into early labour. Please think about how your decisions affect the lives of others. There is a reasons why it is mandatory to wear seatbelts and have brakes in your car. Big Pharm isn't out to get you. They don't make money giving you cures.
Beautiful answer! You are the first person to cite their opinion/information with credible sources. Thanks for sharing!!!!
Strange I didn't see any sources cited? Also please don't believe that there is zero money being made from vaccines that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on this issue. I'm not saying this is a huge conspiracy to give everyone cancer and get rich but pharmaceutical companies ARE making money, this is America. Things are done for profit.

No she did not cite and sources but she does have a higher understanding and knowledge of it than most of us on here. That's what I got out of what she meant anyway. But no one has been citing anything so I don't think it matters. IMO what she meant wasn't that pharmaceuticals are making vaccines for free but that they would make more money getting everyone sick and providing them with meds and ways to take care of the symptoms.

mrspark812 · February 2015

Mamamads said:

mrspark812 said:
If we really think about it bug Pharm would make more money off of medication for the symptoms of these disease than they would make by completely eradicating them. If there are no more disease then they wouldn't make a dime because no one would need medicine any more.
But somehow among all these vaccines and medications we are sicker than ever. Autoimmune diseases, allergies, cancers, asthma to name a few. Big pharma is making more money by keeping everyone ill.

And @sschwege‌ the only reason I mentioned them making money is because someone flat out said they didn't, which is a ludicrous statement.

Where is your research tha vaccines are causing these things....in my opinion it sounds like there is a correlation between the two not a causation and in the medical/scientific world correlation does not equal causation.

There are so many other things now a days that could be contributing to these increased aliments. I have not done any specific research so I will not speak to anything in particular but there a lot more things in the world today than there were in the past. There are always multiple variables to consider that could be affecting our health.

Edited to fix dumb typos...thanks auto correct!

p_and_a · February 2015

DH found an interesting link that addresses many of the points that have been brought up in our thread:

https://pediatrics.about.com/od/immunizations/tp/Anti-Vaccine-Myths-and-Misinformation.htm

Here's a list of the 50 points discussed:

1. Vaccines cause autism.

2. No one else is at risk if I don't vaccinate my kids.

3. Shedding after vaccines gets people sick.

4. Most people who get sick during outbreaks are vaccinated.

5. Vaccines don't really work.

6. Vaccine-preventable diseases aren't really that serious.

7. Big Pharma

8. Vaccines contain more mercury now than ever.

9. A selective or alternative immunization schedule is safer.

10. Many people don't vaccinate their kids.

11. Vaccines are made with aborted fetal tissue.

12. Too many too soon - overloading the immune system.

13. Natural immunity is better than immunity from vaccination.

14. Vaccines are not vigorously tested before being approved by the FDA.

15. Herd immunity isn't real.

16. I use PubMed to do my vaccine research.

17. 10 vaccines in the 1980s ballooned into 36 in 2008 and into 49 now.

18. Package Inserts

19. More vaccines are linked to higher infant mortality rates.

20. Most adults aren't up to date on boosters.

21. Sick people should just stay home.

22. The media is just scaring people about measles and whooping cough.

23. You can not sue if your child is injured by a vaccine.

24. Vaccines go against some or most religions.

25. Most vaccine side effects aren't reported by doctors.

26. Many experts are against vaccines.

27. Vaccinated kids are the cause of most outbreaks.

28. Vaccines cause shaken baby syndrome.

29. The chicken pox vaccine is creating a surge in shingles cases.

30. The U.S. gives more vaccines than other developed countries.

31. The anti-vax movement is growing.

32. Vaccines aren't tested together.

33. I'm pro-safe vaccine. I'm not anti-vaccine.

34. It is safer to wait until your kids are older before getting them vaccinated.

35. Vaccine court has paid out billions to vaccine-injured children.

36. Vaccines are creating resistance in viruses and bacteria

37. Unvaccinated Kids are Healthier than Vaccinated Kids

38. People didn't use to worry about vaccine-preventable diseases.

39. One more study

40. The one-size fits all immunization schedule.

41. Doctors don't learn anything about vaccines.

42. Parents are not legally obligated to vaccinate their kids.

43. Aren't vaccines made for adults?

44. The HPV vaccine just encourages kids to have sex.

45. Doctors don't vaccinate their own kids.

46. Why are we still injecting toxins into our kids?

47. Babies don't need an STD vaccine!

48. Correlation equals causation

49. Vaccinations are not Immunizations

50. I did my research...

As quoted from point #6, here's what life was like in the pre-vaccine era:

there were regular outbreaks of polio in the United States causing 13,000 to 20,000 cases of paralytic poliomyelitits each year and about 1,000 deaths. In even larger polio epidemics in the 1940s and 1950s there were up to 3,145 deaths.
there were about 500,000 cases of measles in the United States, with at least 500 to 1,000 deaths and 500 cases of measles encephalitis. As late as 1989-1991, there were 55,622 cases and 123 deaths in the US.
there were up to 200,000 cases of diphtheria and 15,000 deaths each year
the Haemophilus influenzae type b bacteria caused life-threatening infections, includingmeningitis, epiglottitis, and pneumonia, in up to 20,000 young children each year. Many were infants, and up to 5% died. Among those who survived their Hib infection, up to 30% had hearing impairment or neurologic complications.
there were about 270,000 cases of pertussis and 10,000 deaths each year in the United States
20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome during an severe epidemic of rubella in 1964 (12.5 million cases). An additional 2,100 newborns died and there were at least 11,250 surgical and spontaneous abortions in women with rubella while pregnant. The 1964 rubella epidemic is thought to have affected at least 1% of all pregnancies. These severe rubella epidemics were thought to have occurred every 6 to 9 years, with smaller epidemics in 2 to 4 year cycles.

"Even today, about 200,000 children die each year from pertussis and at least 122,000 die from measles around the world. Vaccine-preventable diseases are clearly serious. We should also not overlook the fact that they would be just as deadly today if we stopped vaccinating our children and allowed them to come back in the United States."

And from point #19:

"Anti-vaccine folks often try to link infant mortality rates (the number of deaths per 1,000 live births) together with the number of vaccines that a country gives its children.
If vaccines weren't dangerous, they claim, then why would the infant mortality rate in the United States be higher than the infant mortality rate in some countries that don't protect their children from as many vaccine-preventable diseases?
Not surprisingly, infant mortality rates and vaccines are things that you can't really link together. For one thing, many experts have pointed out that simply comparing infant mortality rates between different countries isn't reliable because they don't all count live births the same.
And most experts have found that one factor, premature births, is behind the higher infant mortality rates in the United States. They believe that preterm-related causes of death are more important for our higher infant mortality rates than other possible causes, such as birth defects, SIDS, maternal health complications, or unintentional accidents.
And why, you might ask, have infant mortality rates decreased by at least 12% in the United States since 2005 if kids continue to get more vaccines?"

Food for thought.

ellie9933 · February 2015

@mamamads just curious what your reasoning for not vaccinating is? I saw you wrote because vaccines can kill but so can diseases . Look at resources when you say vaccine death is higher than vaccines because that is just not true - I would be skeptical of trusting a .com website

Ckorines · February 2015

CassHerbert said:

Ckorines said:
True. No actual citations, but her degree in microbiology, immunology, and biotechnology gave me a sense of credibility. I have a total respect for professionals who dedicate their lives to this stuff and I don't pretend to know more than them. My husband suffers from a lymphatic auto-immune disease and doctors have warned us of him being exposed to high risk situations. I'm hypersensitive to the spread of unnecessary things. But again, I stand corrected. She did not actually cite any sources.
I have responded to my lack of sources and citations. I can include my diploma too if anyone is interested. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to read my argument. Pregnancy has turned me into a pro vaccine nut ball. I never used to think to much about it. Everyone I knew had been vaccinated. I just knew that that's what people did. I knew how important they were for community health. When I heard that people thought they were dangerous, I couldn't understand why. Why would something that every single kid I went to school with got be bad? We all turned out pretty okay on average. Sore arms mostly. Honestly, pick up a book at the Library... A real scientific book. Stay off Google.... The Internet is a place where you can say whatever you want.

Never doubted you momma! We are in the same boat. I agree with yo completed. But thank you!

UTMissy · February 2015

Because VAERS was mentioned Id like to point out that no Vaccine injury compensation claim EVER goes to an actual court unless they denied them (which occurs 2 out of 3 times on average and even those that do get compensation doesn't mean the vaccine caused it just that it is one possibility of cause). The entire point of the program is to acknowledge that we live in a world that isn't perfect. There is always a risk no matter what we do in our every day life. They know that sadly there will be a small percentage harmed due to various reasons such as allergies and rather than put the families through further harm by going through court proceedings there is a fund set to settle. Anybody can claim a vaccine injury and they keep record of all claims however a committee decides if it's a valid claim. VAERS is a poor source of information and really doesn't prove anything as they request any injuries be reported whether it is or isn't believed to be vaccine related. They want to be able to catch if there is something wrong with a vaccine after all!

asherk · February 2015

UTMissy said:

Because VAERS was mentioned Id like to point out that no Vaccine injury compensation claim EVER goes to an actual court unless they denied them (which occurs 2 out of 3 times on average and even those that do get compensation doesn't mean the vaccine caused it just that it is one possibility of cause). The entire point of the program is to acknowledge that we live in a world that isn't perfect. There is always a risk no matter what we do in our every day life. They know that sadly there will be a small percentage harmed due to various reasons such as allergies and rather than put the families through further harm by going through court proceedings there is a fund set to settle. Anybody can claim a vaccine injury and they keep record of all claims however a committee decides if it's a valid claim. VAERS is a poor source of information and really doesn't prove anything as they request any injuries be reported whether it is or isn't believed to be vaccine related. They want to be able to catch if there is something wrong with a vaccine after all!

i did spend some time going through the claims, and yea, there's not a single one that can conclusively blame vaccines for the injuries or deaths reported. like i said earlier, you can make claims for anything and take it to court, so i don't really view that as a reliable resource, and i don't think it should be used as support for the anti-vaccination movement. i can slip down the icy stairs on my front porch and sue my work for not closing due to the weather, but that in no way means it's their fault.

i understand that when something goes wrong, parents want someone to blame. i get that. but there are literally thousands of things that can go wrong when infants and children as still developing, and most of them cannot be isolated to a single cause. so unless you have solid, evidential proof that vaccines are definitely causing these illnesses and deaths, then you can't place the blame there, no matter how much peace of mind it gives you. correlation does not equal causation. vaccines are overwhelmingly considered to be safe by medical professionals and scientists alike, and there is TONS of scientific evidence to support to widespread use of them. there is next to nothing to definitively support that vaccines are 'deadly and dangerous.'

Mamamads · February 2015

ellie9933 said:
@mamamads just curious what your reasoning for not vaccinating is? I saw you wrote because vaccines can kill but so can diseases . Look at resources when you say vaccine death is higher than vaccines because that is just not true - I would be skeptical of trusting a .com website

My reason for not vaccinating is because it's unnecessary. I trust in my immune system and don't need to pump myself full of chemicals even though I'm being reassured by the people giving them they are "safe" Do you think they do trials on actual people/Infants to see the immediate effects or effects in 10,20,30 years? I'm fortunate to have access to clean water, healthy food and if needed medical care. Many of these things weren't available when people died from some of these diseases. You are scared of the diseases I am scared of the lasting effects of vaccines that aren't always immediate, once you vaccinate you can't unvaccinate.
You asked my reasons so I gave them to you, this wasn't written to be challenged by anyone because it won't change my mind nor do I want to debate this issue. It's my choice as vaccinating is yours.
And for what it's worth I don't get my information from blogs or the huff post.
Also, the Mmr vaccine has injured and killed more people in the last few years (in America) than measles has.. So well there Ya go. If I can find that source I will glady provide it. I have a library of book on this issues, have discussed with doctors as well. To those saying "science" can't prove vaccine caused a death etc. Tell
That to the parents whose babies were healthy one minute and gone the next with the only change being vaccines. It's a tiny pure immune system being bombarded by like 6 shots on their first visit and so on, how is it not surprising that can be harmful on someone?

Mamamads · February 2015

asherk said:

UTMissy said:

Because VAERS was mentioned Id like to point out that no Vaccine injury compensation claim EVER goes to an actual court unless they denied them (which occurs 2 out of 3 times on average and even those that do get compensation doesn't mean the vaccine caused it just that it is one possibility of cause). The entire point of the program is to acknowledge that we live in a world that isn't perfect. There is always a risk no matter what we do in our every day life. They know that sadly there will be a small percentage harmed due to various reasons such as allergies and rather than put the families through further harm by going through court proceedings there is a fund set to settle. Anybody can claim a vaccine injury and they keep record of all claims however a committee decides if it's a valid claim. VAERS is a poor source of information and really doesn't prove anything as they request any injuries be reported whether it is or isn't believed to be vaccine related. They want to be able to catch if there is something wrong with a vaccine after all!

i did spend some time going through the claims, and yea, there's not a single one that can conclusively blame vaccines for the injuries or deaths reported. like i said earlier, you can make claims for anything and take it to court, so i don't really view that as a reliable resource, and i don't think it should be used as support for the anti-vaccination movement. i can slip down the icy stairs on my front porch and sue my work for not closing due to the weather, but that in no way means it's their fault.

i understand that when something goes wrong, parents want someone to blame. i get that. but there are literally thousands of things that can go wrong when infants and children as still developing, and most of them cannot be isolated to a single cause. so unless you have solid, evidential proof that vaccines are definitely causing these illnesses and deaths, then you can't place the blame there, no matter how much peace of mind it gives you. correlation does not equal causation. vaccines are overwhelmingly considered to be safe by medical professionals and scientists alike, and there is TONS of scientific evidence to support to widespread use of them. there is next to nothing to definitively support that vaccines are 'deadly and dangerous.'

That makes sense, I just stumbled upon that and thought I would share with you. I have much more conclusive examples but most is in my books so I'm not really going to type it all out for you. But, do you think a baby dying from an MMR vaccine or a teen dying from a flu shot is going to make headlines on CNN? No, you know why? Because then people would freak out much like they are doing now with the measles outbreak and eventually start demanding safer vaccines or denying them all together. Yes vaccine injuries are pretty rare, I mean we are all here to talk about it. But on this thread there are two women who have had reactions and one woman's child who had a life altering reaction. So to believe that they don't cause reactions and that nobody can prove vaccines caused them is honestly just you fooling yourself. In some cases maybe they can't prove it, maybe they had underlying health issues that could be to blame but there are cases when vaccines are 100% the culprit.

tabbiekat13 · February 2015

audi681 said:
I am pro-vaccination. I understand it is a choice, and my choice is to vaccinate. I also think Jenny McCarthy is a terrible person and preached nonsense to the public regarding something she knew little about. Vaccinations do not cause autism. Enough said about that.

I had the chicken pox when I was a child... 12 to be exact. When my husband and I started IVF, I was required to get the vaccination before they would proceed. I did not have the antibodies in my system. So yes, you can have the chicken pox and not be immune.

I am still undecided on the topic of vaccines. However, since you pointed out having chicken pox and still not being immune to it now. I have to say I got the chicken pox vaccine as a child in 1995, and upon getting pregnant found out I wasn't immune to it either. So ultimately neither of us were immune in two different scenarios where we both should have been according to doctors. This is why I am so confused on the topic.

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads well if you think not getting vaccinated isn't hurting everyone else you're fooling yourself. Also, spreading lies and scare tactics to other moms isn't helping. You trust your immune system?? Tell that to the thousands of people who got polio in the 1900s and have lived with terrible disabilities and poor quality of life. Tell that to the infants sick with measles in the US right now. It's irresponsible and unhealthy to say these things and frankly you are a danger to our society. Needed to get that off my chest. Hopefully I can be done now but I'm sure you'll reply with some terrible evidence to support your terrible opinion .

p_and_a · February 2015

@kelckings @mamamads Regarding the dangers of measles, here is a heartbreaking letter written in 1986 by one of my favorite authors, Roald Dahl. His daugher Olivia died from measles encephalitis in 1962.

------------------------------------------------------------

Roald Dahl on Olivia, writing in 1986

"MEASLES: A dangerous illness.

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn't do anything.

'Are you feeling all right?' I asked her.

'I feel all sleepy,' she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.

On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.

It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk. In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.

Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die.

LET THAT SINK IN.

Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.

So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?

They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.

So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised.

The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.

Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was James and the Giant Peach. That was when she was still alive. The second was The BFG, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children."

Mamamads · February 2015

@p_and_a‌ that's heart breaking. But were you aware measles and encephalitis are listed as side effects of the mmr vaccine? The thing is someone whose child died from a disease is just as distraught and heartbroken as a parent whose child died from a vaccine. I am a part of a group of families who share their stories of their children who are either suffering life long disabilities or are gone and it's absolutely gut wrenching listening to their stories.
@kelckings‌ We can just agree to disagree. The "scare tactics" you speak of are truths and honestly you are not doing anything different. I'm not trying to convince anyone they shouldn't vaccinate just sharing why I don't because someone asked. I think it's just as irresponsible to tell someone to go shoot up their newborns without batting an eye or asking questions. Again, a majority of people with a brain won't make their health decisions from reading an online forum, let's hope they speak with their doctors and do what's right for them and their families.

legwarmer · February 2015

Geez. I am genuinely confused about whether to vaccinate or not. The more I read and learn, the more I just see the pros and cons on both sides of the debate. I think I am both for and against vaccinating. I wish there were better terms being used than the back and white 'provaxxer' and 'antivaxxer' - there must be others like me who sit somewhere in the middle and are just genuinely undecided? I think I might be leaning towards delayed and selective vaccinations. Anybody on here gone with this option?

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads "death" is a side effect of almost every medication. So maybe my grandfather who has been taking life saving medications for the last 10 years should just stop. I don't really care what you do but I think people who advocate for others to not vaccinate by telling why they don't is wrong and dangerous. I mean come on, the original person who write vaccines are "dangerous" publically apologized. So yeah let's tell the parents of new babies we are "shooting up poisons into infants," when that's not the objective here. These " poisons" have eradicated terrible diseases. I don't think it's right to blab about why these things are so awful when there is no true evidence so I am going to continue and argue with you. We can agree to disagree however, I am still going to advocate for vaccines because that's what being a nurse is. An advocate for those who are not sure about a topic and giving them the most up to date evidence based practice. It's the right thing to do and what you're doing is wrong. I'm sorry I'm sure you're a very nice and mostly reasonable person and obviously a great mother to your ability. But don't post anything else about " side effects" of vaccines. Again, almost every medication I give daily has a "side effect" of death. So should I hold every med and pray the person with a failing organ magically lives?? You're argument is invalid and not supported by current medicine.

kelckings · February 2015

@legwarmer‌ don't listen to a single thing said by me or anyone else. You need to talk to your healthcare provider for your baby. He or she went to school for 8+ years and has the best and most up to date advice and knowledge.

Mamamads · February 2015

@kelcking 1) Obviously giving someone life saving medication is beneficial so that is a ridiculous comparison. What we are talking about has nothing to do with medicating dying individuals. We are talking about injecting numerous ingredients into the blood stream of healthy individuals in hopes it might prevent diseases. 2) If you are a nurse and know so much about medication/science you would know science is never "concluded." The reality is our understanding of disease and treatment are constantly evolving and being updated. Something that was raved as beneficial and amazing twenty years ago can be dangerous and taken off the market today. So when someone such as yourself speaks as though the verdict is in on vaccines that they are amazing and pose zero risk because.. you know science and your doctor told you so, you are missing the point that studies are always being reviewed/updated and medicine is constantly improving and changing. 3.) I have every right to speak up about my views and what I have learned over the years and will continue to do so, I urge everyone to speak with their doctors, do research from valid sources and trust your gut. I won't be silenced because it's scary to you, sorry but I'm not sorry.

Let me add; If you are going to take on the stance that every medication has side effects then acknowledge that vaccines are no different and quit saying there is "No true evidence" that they are harmful because that's asinine.

Mamamads · February 2015

legwarmer said:

Geez. I am genuinely confused about whether to vaccinate or not. The more I read and learn, the more I just see the pros and cons on both sides of the debate. I think I am both for and against vaccinating. I wish there were better terms being used than the back and white 'provaxxer' and 'antivaxxer' - there must be others like me who sit somewhere in the middle and are just genuinely undecided? I think I might be leaning towards delayed and selective vaccinations. Anybody on here gone with this option?

I know quite a few people who delayed vaccines and/or did selective ones. That is sort of the in between area, maybe look around for a natural minded pediatrician in your area and speak to them about what they suggest. Good luck with whatever you decide.

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads I'm not silencing you. Obviously I can't do that. However what you're saying is false and I think it's important someone replies to you and says what you're saying is false. And you ARE comparing it to life saving medications that are made and manufactured by the same people who made these life saving and world changing vaccines. By saying you cannot compare vaccines to life saving medicines you are then saying that vaccines don't save lives? I would like to see you say that because it is clearly ridiculous. Obviously science is never conclusive yet we still use the most up to date evidence based practice in medicine and as of now that is to continue vaccine regimen. So, therefore science says it is the correct and safest thing to do and I encourage all my patients to vaccinate and will be lobbying to force vaccinations in public schools, because again, it is the best evidence we have at this time and it obviously works as these diseases have been prevented for over 50 years. I also think it's crazy that kids whose parents don't vaccinate then will eventually have to be vaccinated anyways if they want to do anything in the healthcare field. You will not be permitted to work in most hospitals if you are unvaccinated. And they don't make exceptions. By the way, as children get older they are more likely to become allergic to things in these "poisons." So by delaying these vaccines you're putting your child at a higher risk later in life. Just a side note. Anyways I really don't have time for this although it is the ONLY thing I ever argue with people about as I usually believe things are a parents choice. In this case, it needs to be argued about because it isn't something to toss aside.

MeegePVchick · February 2015

Vaccine shedding is a myth. When you look it up the only "evidence" is on anti-vax sites

Mamamads · February 2015

Vaccine shedding is a myth. When you look it up the only "evidence" is on anti-vax sites

Nope it's on the cdc website as well as a list of people who should stay away from immune compromised individuals.

Does anyone know hot to post links? I am trying to post the CDC link about shedding but it won't stay

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads my point on saying that there is evidence that every medication has a side effect is not asnine, it's true. Jergens baby hand lotion has a side effect. Vaccines have a side effect, however those side effect are at such a low risk and some haven't even been proven to be caused by the vaccine itself and the consequences of NOT vaccinating are much higher then the miniscule chance that something could happen. Without Tylenol, a baby could die of a fever, without mmr, lots of kids (and adults) will die of measles and etc. It's an exact comparison, not asnine. It's not just "scary" it's a whole lot more complicated then my fear, it's a society problem.

Mamamads · February 2015

@kelckings You misunderstood me. You previously said there is no evidence that vaccine can harm/kill people and then said every medication has side effects. This is what is asinine, if you are going to say all medications have side effects than at least acknowledge vaccines are no different. Literally nothing I am saying is false. You are acting like I am saying the sky is green, I am saying people die and are harmed by vaccines (which is a fact regardless of how many) and that I choose not to. That's really all there is to it for me and no need to discuss it any further.

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads I did not misunderstand and I replied to your comment about vaccines having "side effects". I replied saying multiple times that what you're saying to do is okay for people to do and it's not. It's not what the best evidence based practice says and its not okay to tell people that kind of information when you're not giving numbers. Saying that vaccines kill people is scaring people when the statistic for that was not given. I can guarantee more people would be dead if we stopped vaccinating versus people who have had "death related to vaccines." So don't say that not vaccinating is an awesome and positive thing to do when it's not what's the best evidence and practice by HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS, not just random people on an antivax website.I'm glad you're done so I can stop replying to you.

kelckings · February 2015

@legwarmer‌ delaying vaccines is a better alternative than not vaccinating although the longer you wait the longer your child could run into a kid who was not vaccinated at all and get sick. Overall, if your healthcare provider has a degree and has went to school and isn't just some random person posing as a doctor, they will tell you to vaccinate your child 100%. It's the safest and smartest thing to do in medicine today. Although again, don't listen to anything on here completely, talk to a liscensed healthcare professional.

irelandsangel81 · February 2015

I have a question for those who are strongly anti vaccines, do you feel no one should vaccinate their child? I was just wondering if since most claim that the side effects of the vaccine are very dangerous do U wish no one vaccinated?

Also I find it interesting that I have not send peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated. Would you feel bad or guilty if ur unvaccinated child was exposed to measles and U sent them to school no knowing they were carrying the disease and they affected a medically sensitive child?

kelckings · February 2015

Also, this is only for those of you tuning in and NOT antivax, I have to tell my cousin who does not vaccinate her kiddos that I don't want my child around hers until mine is completely vaccinated. This is going to tear my family apart but just as she thinks she is doing what is right for her kids, so am I. I can't run the risk of her kids being sick and giving it to my child because she will be too young to be vaccinated. It's really sad that I have to do this when it could all be avoided if people just listened to their doctor. Anyways any suggestions?? I thought maybe a letter would be good explaining respectfully my wishes?? Good/bad??

jennywi83 · February 2015

We selective/delay and now are on hold. My 3.5yo has a possible vaccine injury and I'm not comfortable moving forward until I have some answers.

My newborn/infant/toddler isn't going to be having sex or sharing needles so Hep B at a few days old is silly. I'm more comfortable with a natural immunity to chicken pox than the vaccine.

I'm having twins who will most likely be born preterm and might have health concerns. I plan on holding off all vaccines until I'm comfortable with how they are doing and also if we figure out what happened with my son.

I'm not pro-vaxx or anti-vaxx. I'm pro personal choice. I have a lot of friends who's children were hurt by vaccines. It really makes you concerned and worry the pharmaceutical companies aren't giving you all the information.

kelckings · February 2015

@jennywi83 lucky for you, hopefully, most kids who do not have the same situation as you (kids that should not/cannot be vaccinated) can vaccinate to keep your kids safe. There is room in the picture for people in your situation to where you can't vaccinate for medical reasons. Again, luckily we still have an 90+% vaccination rate so your kids will most likely be protected by me and others vaccinating our kids. As long as the vaccination rates don't decrease significantly you're kids will be fine:)

sschwege · February 2015

irelandsangel81 said:

I have a question for those who are strongly anti vaccines, do you feel no one should vaccinate their child? I was just wondering if since most claim that the side effects of the vaccine are very dangerous do U wish no one vaccinated? Also I find it interesting that I have not send peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated. Would you feel bad or guilty if ur unvaccinated child was exposed to measles and U sent them to school no knowing they were carrying the disease and they affected a medically sensitive child?

I was going to ask something similar. I've always thought that if I wasn't going to vaccinate my child, I wouldn't tell a soul how awful I thought they were. Because I would be praying like hell everyone else did vaccinate since it would be the 'herd immunity' my children would be relying upon. So I would be hoping my neighbors, friends, family were all vaccinating. In fact in Dr. Sear's Vaccine Book he writes something to that effect, like if you aren't planning to vaccinate don't encourage others to follow you, keep it to yourself.

In case anyone is just tuning in, I am very vocal about vaccinations being a social responsibility and my children are fully vaccinated, I'm merely speaking hypothetically to illustrate my question.

jennywi83 · February 2015

Sadly most people don't think like you @kelckings‌

I will say the few people I know who don't vaccinate at all are more educated in the disease, it's symptoms and treatment than people who vaccinate. Most of which are highly educated and have supportive doctors. I don't know anyone who made this decision without lots of discussion, research and consideration.

For me it's not black & white, my family lives the grey zone. I think vaccines are great. If I wasn't worried about harming my child I would jump on the vax train in a heart beat. If polio started spreading outside of Pakistan and Afghanistan (the only places it currently is) I would be totally fine giving the vaccine to all 3 of my kids. If I knew we had a possible measles exposure we would go on lock down and stay home until it was all clear. If I'm not able to breastfeed and share pertussis antibodies with the twins, I will consider giving dtap.

I live in the heart of the current measles shitstorm in California. Truthfully I'm far more worried about the hatred and division among the parenting community than actual measles, which is just sad.

p_and_a · February 2015

Mamamads said:

@p_and_a‌ that's heart breaking. But were you aware measles and encephalitis are listed as side effects of the mmr vaccine? The thing is someone whose child died from a disease is just as distraught and heartbroken as a parent whose child died from a vaccine. I am a part of a group of families who share their stories of their children who are either suffering life long disabilities or are gone and it's absolutely gut wrenching listening to their stories. @kelckings‌ We can just agree to disagree. The "scare tactics" you speak of are truths and honestly you are not doing anything different. I'm not trying to convince anyone they shouldn't vaccinate just sharing why I don't because someone asked. I think it's just as irresponsible to tell someone to go shoot up their newborns without batting an eye or asking questions. Again, a majority of people with a brain won't make their health decisions from reading an online forum, let's hope they speak with their doctors and do what's right for them and their families.

@Mamamads Any death is heartbreaking. But what's even more heartbreaking is the fact that at one point there were about 500,000 cases of measles in the United States, with at least 500 to 1,000 deaths and 500 cases of measles encephalitis. As late as 1989-1991, there were 55,622 cases and 123 deaths in the US.

A pediatric oncologist sent me a CDC publication titled "Update: Vaccine Side Effects, Adverse Reactions, Contraindications, and Precautions Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)." Below are a few relevant excerpts from that publication regarding the MMR vaccine.

Reports of illnesses following mumps vaccination have mainly been episodes of parotitis (inflammation of the salivary glands) and low-grade fever. Allergic reactions including rash, pruritus, and purpura have been temporally associated with mumps vaccination but are uncommon and usually mild and of brief duration. The reported occurrence of encephalitis within 30 days of receipt of a mumps-containing vaccine (0.4 per million doses) is not greater than the observed background incidence rate of CNS dysfunction in the normal population.

Meaning the occurrence of encephalitis among those who were vaccinated was the exact same as any random person on the street. This is similar to saying that the chances of getting struck by lightning are the same for those who get the MMR vaccine and those who do not. Extremely unlikely, but it may happen to those in both groups regardless of vaccine status.

...
Hypersensitivity reactions rarely occur after the administration of MMR or any of its component vaccines. Most of these reactions are minor and consist of a wheal and flare or urticaria at the injection site. Immediate, anaphylactic reactions to MMR or its component vaccines are extremely rare. Although greater than 70 million doses of MMR vaccine have been distributed in the United States since VAERS [Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System] was implemented in 1990, only 33 cases [0.000047%] of anaphylactic reactions that occurred after MMR vaccination have been reported. Furthermore, only 11 of these cases a) occurred immediately after vaccination and b) occurred in persons who had symptoms consistent with anaphylaxis (CDC, unpublished data).

If you look the pre-vaccine era when polio, diphtheria, pertussis and rubella were common place diseases, the numbers were completely devastating.

From point #6:

there were regular outbreaks of polio in the United States causing 13,000 to 20,000 cases of paralytic poliomyelitits each year and about 1,000 deaths. In even larger polio epidemics in the 1940s and 1950s there were up to 3,145 deaths.
there were about 500,000 cases of measles in the United States, with at least 500 to 1,000 deaths and 500 cases of measles encephalitis. As late as 1989-1991, there were 55,622 cases and 123 deaths in the US.
there were up to 200,000 cases of diphtheria and 15,000 deaths each year
the Haemophilus influenzae type b bacteria caused life-threatening infections, includingmeningitis, epiglottitis, and pneumonia, in up to 20,000 young children each year. Many were infants, and up to 5% died. Among those who survived their Hib infection, up to 30% had hearing impairment or neurologic complications.
there were about 270,000 cases of pertussis and 10,000 deaths each year in the United States
20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome during an severe epidemic of rubella in 1964 (12.5 million cases). An additional 2,100 newborns died and there were at least 11,250 surgical and spontaneous abortions in women with rubella while pregnant. The 1964 rubella epidemic is thought to have affected at least 1% of all pregnancies. These severe rubella epidemics were thought to have occurred every 6 to 9 years, with smaller epidemics in 2 to 4 year cycles.

"Even today, about 200,000 children die each year from pertussis and at least 122,000 die from measles around the world. Vaccine-preventable diseases are clearly serious. We should also not overlook the fact that they would be just as deadly today if we stopped vaccinating our children and allowed them to come back in the United States."

To me, this says that the injury/death rate as a result of the measles itself is far greater than the injury/death rate as a result the MMR vaccine (500,000 cases of measles per year and 500 cases of encephalitis vs. 0.00047% cumulative over 25+ years). Imagine the comparison for other diseases and their respective vaccines. Yes, I have some concern when it comes to the extremely rare and minor side effects of vaccines (as one would with any medication), however I am far more terrified by what can happen if these diseases are allowed to make a come back to the point of an epidemic.

Mamamads · February 2015

@kelckings‌ Lol at "if a doctor has a degree and isn't some person off the street" they will tell you to vaccinate. I had a friends doctor tell her that she doesn't recommend the flu shot while pregnant and didn't get one herself while pregnant (certified ob) My naturopath I'm pretty sure also went to med school, haha Not to mention the cardiologist from Arizona who is in the news right now for saying he flat out doesn't recommend any vaccines. Majority of doctors recommend the typical schedule.. yes. Every doctor with an actual degree.. No.

This just made me chuckle.

kelckings · February 2015

@mamamads we aren't even discussing flu shot while pregnant and that wasn't addressed. That's for different reasons and I can see why a doctor would say that based on the reasons behind them. Although actually getting the flu while pregnant can cause the death of the fetus but that's besides the point. So you basically just agreed with me saying that the overall majority of physicians will tell you to vaccinate. I'm really glad you're chuckling at something so serious. It's really responsible.

grlplz · February 2015

irelandsangel81 said:
Also I find it interesting that I have not sent peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated.

This is a wonderful point. Why can't my son eat peanuts, which are perfectly safe for him and therefore a good match for him but kids who are not vaccinated, because their parents decided that was the right thing for them, okay to be there when they can be just as dangerous to other kids as peanuts to kids who are allergic?

I am one of the "provaxxers" and don't want my children around kids who are not vaccinated until mine are done with their immunizations so they stand a chance if they are exposed but I do my best not to make anyone feel judged. But really why should I have to worry about my child going places? Someone mentioned it's the parents fault for bringing a child in public if they get infected by an unvaccinated child. But why should that child be forced to be a "shut in" and not allowed to go places like Disneyland or daycare or the doctors etc. but I should be understanding that an unvaccinated child has the right to do these things and leave their home with no regard to the safety of others. That doesn't make sense. With that mentality why can't other kids just stay away from peanuts?

Ultimately I just want to know if anyone sees the difference and I'm just missing it. My kids who are too young for certain vaccines can't go anywhere, same with the ones who can't medically do it, because the unvaccinated child has the right to go places but mine doesn't have a right to eat PB&J.

rock2blu · February 2015

I won't be vaccinating my infant. When they want to vaccinate our newborns for hep b (a sexually transmitted disease)on the first day of life I doubt the integrity of vaccine manufacturing company's and drs that don't support my choices. My baby isn't going to catch a sexually transmitted disease. Also I am against a few other vaccines and will opt out, others I will delay. My baby will be breastfeeding and not in a childcare situation. This is what I did with my other 2 children and they are happy healthy dudes.
Every situation, parent, and baby are different as long as you're doing what you believe is right

we shouldn't be judging each other for loving our kids.
A wonderful resource written by a pro vaccine Dr.
The Vaccine book by Robert W Sears

rock2blu · February 2015

Vaccines expire or wear out if you will at about age 15. How many of you pregnant women have sent in your loved ones for an MMR booster?

mrspark812 · February 2015

grlplz said:

irelandsangel81 said:
Also I find it interesting that I have not sent peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated.
This is a wonderful point. Why can't my son eat peanuts, which are perfectly safe for him and therefore a good match for him but kids who are not vaccinated, because their parents decided that was the right thing for them, okay to be there when they can be just as dangerous to other kids as peanuts to kids who are allergic?

I am one of the "provaxxers" and don't want my children around kids who are not vaccinated until mine are done with their immunizations so they stand a chance if they are exposed but I do my best not to make anyone feel judged. But really why should I have to worry about my child going places? Someone mentioned it's the parents fault for bringing a child in public if they get infected by an unvaccinated child. But why should that child be forced to be a "shut in" and not allowed to go places like Disneyland or daycare or the doctors etc. but I should be understanding that an unvaccinated child has the right to do these things and leave their home with no regard to the safety of others. That doesn't make sense. With that mentality why can't other kids just stay away from peanuts?

Ultimately I just want to know if anyone sees the difference and I'm just missing it. My kids who are too young for certain vaccines can't go anywhere, same with the ones who can't medically do it, because the unvaccinated child has the right to go places but mine doesn't have a right to eat PB&J.

You didn't miss anything. That is what the PP stated. That it is not her responsibility to protect the health of others and those with compromised immunities should either stay inside or know they risk getting sick going into public therefore it's their fault if they get sick.

So yes your young children who are too young for certain vaccines should not go to Disneyland and you are an irresponsible parent for taking someone at risk to a public place like that.

Mamamads · February 2015

irelandsangel81 said:

I have a question for those who are strongly anti vaccines, do you feel no one should vaccinate their child? I was just wondering if since most claim that the side effects of the vaccine are very dangerous do U wish no one vaccinated? Also I find it interesting that I have not send peanut butter to school with my daughter because it might cause another student to have an allergic reaction BUT parents can send their unvaccinated children to school who might be carrying a deadly disease that will affect students who medically can't be vaccinated. Would you feel bad or guilty if ur unvaccinated child was exposed to measles and U sent them to school no knowing they were carrying the disease and they affected a medically sensitive child?

I'll answer this. I personally don't care if people vaccinate their children or not. I don't feel like someone said that they are protecting my child and that I pray everyone vaccinates so they continue to provide "herd immunity" for my child. Definitely don't feel that way. As far as this peanut butter thing people think they are so clever pointing out. There is most likely children at your kids school who are allergic and should it somehow get to them there is a guaranteed reaction. Sending an unvaccinated child to school is not a gurantee harm when other kids come into contact with them. An unvaccinated child poses just as much of a threat as a vaccinated child to someone with a compromised immune system because even a simple cold could put them in the hospital. Would I feel bad if my child got someone ill? Of course, just as I'm sure you would if your child got someone ill. But unfortunately it's the risks you take sending your child to preschool/school because kids are germy little creatures.

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