Sensitive Subject - Not keeping baby with (certain) disabilities?

Maria Agnesa

*MrsGraphine*:

Mentally or physically abled/disabled I am in love! 

 

This is what makes it such a selfish thing. so YOU are in love...it doesnt mean that child would be in love with being genetically mutated. Besides, some people have other beliefs such as reincarnation, and may believe that baby would come back in a proper body next time. Thus making abortion a way of setting it free. Dont be so closed minded as to only think of what you would love, or how you would feel.

Honestly? Having Downs would be a part of that child... I would teach them acceptance and Love.   "Normal" children  can grow up hating themselves, being depressed and commiting suicide... So, not sure where your going with that.

So, your saying Reincarnation and religions that believe in that encourage killing because that person MIGHT be born in a PROPER body next time.  Hmmm... so if you have Cancer, overweight, if you are handicapped or if you have any other issues with your body, Kill yourself, you might get a PROPER body next time around. 

  

bstrangely

LCB34:

hollowstar:

I have seen that and it IS very emotional - I am sure I at least choked up reading it - but it cemented my views. I have to admit that I would be heartbroken and honestly a bit disgusted if my baby was placed into my arms and I realized it had Down Synd. I am sure many of you will find that heartless but it is my gut reaction.

This comment officially confirms, IMO, you are not mature enough to be a parent.

What is your mentally *perfect* child wants to be a greeter?  Will you throw then to the wolves b/c they aren't living up to everything you dreamed they would be.

I am just to disgusted with you right now it is probably best that I leave this thread for good.

 

 

i'm sure you did leave this thread at some point, but honestly, this is the same reaction i had when you described your potential disappointment at a child who didn't stick to their gender roles. you want to dress your little girl up every day, but what if she fights you? what if she'd rather wear overalls for a whole month and throws the cute little hats you buy her on the floor? obviously you can't know if she will or not through prenatal testing, but these things really happen, to lots of people, all the time.

 

kids are who they are. i genuinely don't know what i would do if i had a child with any kind of birth defect, but i think it's really odd for you to stand there and judge someone who has these thoughts about children who "aren't living up to everything you dreamed they would be."

 

i think it's far more mature to try to honestly assess the depth of your feelings before you have the child.

Spenjamins

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It makes perfect sense.  My friends and I are very close and we have been through hard times and good times. We disclose things candidly so yes, my friends would have said so. The point in my remark was that you must not have many friends...I should have clarified by adding "close friends". My fault, anyhow my friends were not repulsed. Scared, worried, scattered, unsure...yes. Repulsed, never!

If you think even your closest friend have shared all of their secrets with you, you are kidding yourself.

 

 *

Spenjamins

femmegem:

Kimmy1836:

At1stsight:

DH is a pedi and one poor child was delivered very very early due to a terminal genetic malformation. The parents knew the baby would die very shortly after birth. They were in pain about it and didn't want to see the child because it was so hard. DH and his coworker shared time holding this baby for 3 hours until he passed on. They could have set it aside in a warmer/crib to die on its own, but they both believed that no baby should have to die alone and untouched. Why'd they do it? It was disfigured, it's mental capacity was surely impaired, etc. They did it because every living human deserves respect.

That is such a beautiful and simple act of kindness. 

This kills me. I don't care how painful it is, how could any parent not see their living child before it passed on?

This kind of thing happens all the time - it isn't an isolated incident. Never say never.

ABColeslaw

Wow this post has reached two other boards that I know of.  I just want to say this....I did not read all the responses....theres like 10 pages.  I'm a special needs teacher.  I happen to work with small children, some slightly disabled and some severly disabled.  This post makes me sad, because all of the kids I have worked with are wonderful and I can't imagine anyone not wanting them. 

With that said, I have been in a situation or two where I was uncomfortable around adults with disabilities.  But serioulsy, its called compassion.  So I'm uncomfortable for a few seconds......I deal with it, with more than just dealing with it....in a way that allows  the other person to have dignity.  If I'm uncomfortable its an issue within myself that I need to work on.  I will teach my child to have more than just tolerance, but empathy, and compassion and hopefully he will more comfortable of people with differences than I am.  I would be extrememly careful saying you would allow your children to just voice thier thoughts blindly.....it will spread beyong just this subject area, you don't want your kid getting beat up because they have something on thier mind about race, religion, or gender.  We live in a society made up of all sorts of people.  Your kids need to be able to live in that society.  Part of that is called "code switching"  Meaning they will talk differently to you than they will to people outside the house.  You need to teach them how to do this or you are failing them. 

TriciaJoy

And P.S. I AM the mother of a child with special needs. No, it's not all rainbows and puppy dog tails. Yes, sometimes it sucks.

But the things I worry about aren't about ME. They are about HIM.

What would you do if your child were injured in a car accident and disfigured or suffered brain trauma? Dump him at the nearest hospital and run as fast as you could so no one sees you with a less than perfect child?

 

News flash: Your child won't be perfect. He might be genetically just fine, but maybe he'll have autism. Or maybe nothing major but will just turn out to be a little brat. He'll throw food and scream in public and embarrass you.

I'm afraid you're in for a very rude awakening.

Shlei

Spenjamins: I'm not kidding myself. They may not have shared every single thing but yes there are people out there that would rather confide in their friends rather then talk to some quack of a therapist or psychologist.

jlthompson19

Shlei:

It makes perfect sense.  My friends and I are very close and we have been through hard times and good times. We disclose things candidly so yes, my friends would have said so. The point in my remark was that you must not have many friends...I should have clarified by adding "close friends". My fault, anyhow my friends were not repulsed. Scared, worried, scattered, unsure...yes. Repulsed, never!

I do have some very close friends, but even so, I don't think any woman would let anyone else know if she felt repulsed by her own child.  It's so incredibly taboo, I think it's one of those things they wouldn't share with anyone other than a therapist or doctor, if even them. 

*MrsGraphine*

Maria Agnesa:

*MrsGraphine*:

Mentally or physically abled/disabled I am in love! 

 

This is what makes it such a selfish thing. so YOU are in love...it doesnt mean that child would be in love with being genetically mutated. Besides, some people have other beliefs such as reincarnation, and may believe that baby would come back in a proper body next time. Thus making abortion a way of setting it free. Dont be so closed minded as to only think of what you would love, or how you would feel.

Honestly? Having Downs would be a part of that child... I would teach them acceptance and Love.   "Normal" children  can grow up hating themselves, being depressed and commiting suicide... So, not sure where your going with that.

So, your saying Reincarnation and religions that believe in that encourage killing because that person MIGHT be born in a PROPER body next time.  Hmmm... so if you have Cancer, overweight, if you are handicapped or if you have any other issues with your body, Kill yourself, you might get a PROPER body next time around. 

  

 

lol, if you are overweight you may as well kill yourself since its something that you did to yourself anyway. gross.

I wasnt talking about killing, I was talking about abortion.

Shlei

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

In case it was misunderstood, I tried to explain that if my child came out with a disability I would have a decision to make whether or not adoption would be a better choice. Nowhere have I said that newborns or adults with disabilities shouldn't live once they are here, only that I would opt to terminate if I found out early enough.

So you don't believe in unconditional love either?

So you're saying giving up a baby means you don't love them? Do you say that to other moms considering giving up babies for adoption, or just me?

I may be young but I am adult enough to know my limitations. Giving up a baby is a personal choice and one I would not take lightly regardless of circumstance.

I would love my child forever, and advocate for and care for them as long as they were in my care.

No I am not saying giving up a baby means you don't love them but I think that if you are willing to terminate if you find out your child has  Down Syndrome but then turn around and say that later on if something is wrong you would be their advocate is kind of an oxymoron.  I read that as if you find out now you would terminate but if they were born with something you would adopt out BUT if at 2 or 3 years of age they are diagnosed with something else you would be their advocate.  What is the difference if its now, at birth, or years down the road?   I'm just looking for more clear of an understanding.

For me, I wouldn't KNOWINGLY bring a child in to the world to suffer. How is that so hard to understand?

Any woman with a special needs child who doesn't admit to some feelings of sadness, guilt, anger, even repulsion....is lying.

That's messed up. Of course a mixture of feelings will come about but repulsion? Wow! I know several special needs mothers that never felt repulsion. Suffer? Who are you to say they suffer. We all have trials and tribulations in this life...they just vary from person to person. 

 

I'm so sure your friends would tell you that they felt repulsion.  But maybe, just maybe they've told Spenjamins, considering she's a Psychiatrist.

Please, you don't have many friends do you?

This makes absolutely no sense.

It makes perfect sense.  My friends and I are very close and we have been through hard times and good times. We disclose things candidly so yes, my friends would have said so. The point in my remark was that you must not have many friends...I should have clarified by adding "close friends". My fault, anyhow my friends were not repulsed. Scared, worried, scattered, unsure...yes. Repulsed, never!

I do have some very close friends, but even so, I don't think any woman would let anyone else know if she felt repulsed by her own child.  It's so incredibly taboo, I think it's one of those things they wouldn't share with anyone other than a therapist or doctor, if even them. 

 

Maybe not your friends but my friends would. You have no idea what we have been through nor our relationships. Being candid is nothing new to us. 

EliseB0323

Hollowstar -- I have a feeling you posted this to get people to notice the link to your web site. At least I HOPE that's the reason.

Spenjamins

Shlei:

Spenjamins: I'm not kidding myself. They may not have shared every single thing but yes there are people out there that would rather confide in their friends rather then talk to some quack of a therapist or psychologist.

Sure but then they might be close enough to you to "get" that your response to their very real and normal emotions would be judgemental and....not tell you. 

melodylb

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

disbride061103

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

jlthompson19:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It makes perfect sense.  My friends and I are very close and we have been through hard times and good times. We disclose things candidly so yes, my friends would have said so. The point in my remark was that you must not have many friends...I should have clarified by adding "close friends". My fault, anyhow my friends were not repulsed. Scared, worried, scattered, unsure...yes. Repulsed, never!

If you think even your closest friend have shared all of their secrets with you, you are kidding yourself.

 

 *

And if you think that all mothers of special needs children are repulsed by them, you are a joke of a doctor.

Shlei

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins: I'm not kidding myself. They may not have shared every single thing but yes there are people out there that would rather confide in their friends rather then talk to some quack of a therapist or psychologist.

Sure but then they might be close enough to you to "get" that your response to their very real and normal emotions would be judgemental and....not tell you. 

Reality is, I know they wouldn't hide their feelings even if it were repulsion. That is what I know. Anyhow, this diverts from the topic at hand. You're not going to convince me otherwise as I will not convince you otherwise. I stand by what I say.

MattysGirl81

At1stsight:

Kimmy1836:

At1stsight:

DH is a pedi and one poor child was delivered very very early due to a terminal genetic malformation. The parents knew the baby would die very shortly after birth. They were in pain about it and didn't want to see the child because it was so hard. DH and his coworker shared time holding this baby for 3 hours until he passed on. They could have set it aside in a warmer/crib to die on its own, but they both believed that no baby should have to die alone and untouched. Why'd they do it? It was disfigured, it's mental capacity was surely impaired, etc. They did it because every living human deserves respect.

That is such a beautiful and simple act of kindness. 

Thank you - I was so proud of DH that day.

You should be proud!  That story just breaks my heart.  Who wouldn't want to hold their precious newborn - defects or not?  I can't even imagine. 

MSC03

MattysGirl81:

At1stsight:

Kimmy1836:

At1stsight:

DH is a pedi and one poor child was delivered very very early due to a terminal genetic malformation. The parents knew the baby would die very shortly after birth. They were in pain about it and didn't want to see the child because it was so hard. DH and his coworker shared time holding this baby for 3 hours until he passed on. They could have set it aside in a warmer/crib to die on its own, but they both believed that no baby should have to die alone and untouched. Why'd they do it? It was disfigured, it's mental capacity was surely impaired, etc. They did it because every living human deserves respect.

That is such a beautiful and simple act of kindness. 

Thank you - I was so proud of DH that day.

You should be proud!  That story just breaks my heart.  Who wouldn't want to hold their precious newborn - defects or not?  I can't even imagine. 

Someone who can't cope with the horrific situation they've been put into.

How someone deals with grief after delivering their dead or dying baby shouldn't be judged.

Spenjamins

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

lanie30

I feel like we've entered eugenics territory with this discussion. And I'm shocked at how many are pro eugenics.

 

Maria Agnesa

*MrsGraphine*:

Maria Agnesa:

*MrsGraphine*:

Mentally or physically abled/disabled I am in love! 

 

This is what makes it such a selfish thing. so YOU are in love...it doesnt mean that child would be in love with being genetically mutated. Besides, some people have other beliefs such as reincarnation, and may believe that baby would come back in a proper body next time. Thus making abortion a way of setting it free. Dont be so closed minded as to only think of what you would love, or how you would feel.

Honestly? Having Downs would be a part of that child... I would teach them acceptance and Love.   "Normal" children  can grow up hating themselves, being depressed and commiting suicide... So, not sure where your going with that.

So, your saying Reincarnation and religions that believe in that encourage killing because that person MIGHT be born in a PROPER body next time.  Hmmm... so if you have Cancer, overweight, if you are handicapped or if you have any other issues with your body, Kill yourself, you might get a PROPER body next time around. 

  

 

lol, if you are overweight you may as well kill yourself since its something that you did to yourself anyway. gross.

I wasnt talking about killing, I was talking about abortion.

Wow, you've reached a new level.  I REALLY hope your being sarcastic... the fact that you are procreating scares me. NFT

MSC03

femmegem:

Kimmy1836:

At1stsight:

DH is a pedi and one poor child was delivered very very early due to a terminal genetic malformation. The parents knew the baby would die very shortly after birth. They were in pain about it and didn't want to see the child because it was so hard. DH and his coworker shared time holding this baby for 3 hours until he passed on. They could have set it aside in a warmer/crib to die on its own, but they both believed that no baby should have to die alone and untouched. Why'd they do it? It was disfigured, it's mental capacity was surely impaired, etc. They did it because every living human deserves respect.

That is such a beautiful and simple act of kindness. 

This kills me. I don't care how painful it is, how could any parent not see their living child before it passed on?

Some of these malformations aren't pretty and can be hard for parents to see.

Seriously, people... If you haven't been put in this situation, you should not speculate on it.

Shlei

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Spenjamins

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Stages of grief. Google it.  HTH. 

MirandaLea29

gtown_bride:

disbride061103:

jlthompson19:

I'll be an outsider with you.  Sure, some people with Downs can live great lives, but many, many don't.  Many are NOT the high functioning people you see working at your grocery store. 

Do you have statistics to back up this claim?

I know my sister. She doesn't have Down's, but she has another birth defect that has a very wide range of effects, from high-functioning to needing to be under 24/7 care. She's in the second group. My experience with her affects me MUCH more than any statistics ever would, or what random strangers on the internet say.

 

My brother also has a disability (Fragile X) that has a wide range of effects. He's more high functioning than my uncle who also has it. I'll have to take care of him when my mother passes. I made sure my husband was all right with this before we got married because there was no way I was going to marry someone who would not support my decision to take care of my brother. I love my brother and, although he's more high functioning (he is a bagger at a grocery store---which he loves doing, thank goodness! The work helps him to be more responsible) I'll have to take care of him for the rest of my life, or his. I don't really have a problem with this though. 

We had to seriously consider what we would do if our baby had Fragile X. It took a lot of talking it out, but we decided we'd keep the baby. I couldn't imagine not having my brother in my life. I might feel differently if he were not so high functioning. As it is, I was tested for Fragile X and didn't have the gene, thank God! 

I do think that this decision is a difficult one. As it is, I wouldn't abort due to having Down Syndrome, Fragile X or Cystic Fibrosis. I would consider aborting due if the fetus had a condition that would not support life outside the womb. I wouldn't want to do that to a child. And I'm mostly a pro-lifer. 

MegGary

hollowstar:

his1stmy4th:

hollowstar:

In case it was misunderstood, I tried to explain that if my child came out with a disability I would have a decision to make whether or not adoption would be a better choice. Nowhere have I said that newborns or adults with disabilities shouldn't live once they are here, only that I would opt to terminate if I found out early enough.

So you don't believe in unconditional love either?

So you're saying giving up a baby means you don't love them? Do you say that to other moms considering giving up babies for adoption, or just me?

I may be young but I am adult enough to know my limitations. Giving up a baby is a personal choice and one I would not take lightly regardless of circumstance.

I would love my child forever, and advocate for and care for them as long as they were in my care.

You realize that being a parent starts when you are pregnant. That being their advocate & caring for them starts now & not when they are born.

Shlei

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Stages of grief. Google it.  HTH. 

 Hah, those are not rules just guidelines. Your insolent tone gives you away by the way.

I think she has been honest through her "stages of grief". Have you taken the time to read her entire blog? 

Jeremy'sMom

hollowstar:

This. If your special needs child outlives you, they typically become a burden either on another family member or the system. That isn't fair to anyone.

My thoughts on abortion have probably shifted since becoming pregnant but I would still rather no child than a severely mentally disabled child. What does a mentally disabled person contribute to the world? Honestly, they might brighten their family's life, but I want my baby to at least have the chance to grow up to be president or an engineer or a writer... not a greeter.

I also find mentally disabled persons extremely uncomfortable to be around for non family members. A "man" with Down Syndrome insisted on hugging me once while I was shopping. My high school had a large program for disabled kids and there were kids that barked, that drooled, that were overly touchy and had no sense of boundaries. Ego is an important part in human development from an evolutionary standpoint and without that filter it is all but impossible to function in society.

I didn't mean that I didn't want everyone's opinion, but more pointing out that I was looking for people who share my views and concerns versus trying to start an argument.

As for asking what I have against "sick" children, I would not just love but FIGHT for my child if they were mentally normal but physically ill.

Ok, I really try to be nice to everyone on here, but you are disgusting.

And yes, I would keep a baby even if he/she had Downs.  When I was pregnant with DS, I didn't get the NT scan done because I really, really wanted this baby, and I knew the chances were really small, (plus my insurance didn't cover it). 

As it turns out, when I was about 8 months pregnant, my OB thought that DS had a condition, I can't remember the name now, but basically she thought his kidney was too big.  I looked up information on the condition, and it's prevalent in people with Downs.  I would be lying if I didn't pray that he would be born healthy, but I knew I loved him and would keep him no matter what happened. 

bunny731

Purposely ending the life of another being (be it a baby, or a fetus, or whatever you want to call it), for whatever reason, is killing.

Then who sets the standard of 'genetically' perfect? If the Nazi's had their way they would have created a world standard of perfect. But that would not have been enough, because everyone would have been virtually the same, and in that case we would have had to find something else to separate us. Maybe a Final Solution for those with freckles?   

Selfish is the mother who cannot get over her own expectations of her child to find/define/write the avenues for her child to live a rich and fulfilling life. I trust that I am a resourceful and loving enough to teach my child to set the standard and screw the rest that try.

nic326

SuperCuteBenz:

nic326:

Does anyone remember Buckets on 12-24? Her unborn baby (and forgive me, I cant remember exact details, chime in if you do) would have been severely disabled and only survive to the teen years and need extensive care. She made the choice to terminate her pregnancy. Her story was an amazing one of a strong woman who made an extremely difficult choice. While every child born with a disability/impairment is different it must be a very difficult choice and I think until you are in that situation its hard to say what you would or wouldnt do

I don't think this is true. If I remember correctly Bucket's baby was originally given only a few years to survive. However, at birth they told her that the problems were much more severe than expected and the baby would have not survived.

Did not know that, thanks for chiming in.

MegGary

hollowstar:

Spenjamins:

For me, I wouldn't KNOWINGLY bring a child in to the world to suffer. How is that so hard to understand?

Any woman with a special needs child who doesn't admit to some feelings of sadness, guilt, anger, even repulsion....is lying.

This.

Once the baby is born, it's here. So I will love it and make a tough decision regarding whether or not I am up to the challenge of the disability and either adopt or not. Later on I'd be much more attached. Least attached to fetus, more attached to baby, and much too attached to an older child to give it up despite any disadvantages. It's not complicated. You do what you can when you can. Whether termination, adoption or keeping the child, the love is the same. I love this baby in me already. But you can love someone and still feel the emotions listed above, including repulsion.

I honestly feel like I'm more of an adult for being honest about my feelings and not falling back on the classic "All babies are a gift from God". Ever heard of postpartum depression? Birth and children come with a wide range of complicated issues and not all are pretty.

WTF does what you've been saying have to do with PPD? You really need to just stop now.

baloneydisc

I'm not going to give my opinion on this subject, but I did find an article that talks about the 90% aborting.  FYI, OP that study was just in Europe.  It's not worldwide, or even the US.

https://www.brianskotko.com/images/stories/Files/adcskotkofinalarticle.pdf

I tried to look up the referenced article, but couldn't find it anywhere.

WinesNotWhines

AleciaMarie:

I would just like to state that while I would consider terminating a DS pregnancy, I in no way agree with Hollowstars sentiments toward the disabled.

HS- You need to realize how offensive your attitude toward the disabled has been in this post. You may just want to log off now.

Ditto. I was offline for a few hours and this post went to hell in a handbasket.

jay.otter

I'm pro-choice, but I would not abort because of Down's Syndrome. We didn't get any extra testing for just this reason. Knowing wouldn't change our plans and I wasn't at risk anyway.

There are a lot of factors to consider though. A Down's Syndrome child needs much more than the regular child. Can you afford the extra medical costs, having a parent at home or a child care situation where the child gets mostly one on one attention? Do you have other children to consider?

We only planned to have one child, and if need be we could cope with the costs, and I would be a SAHM. Many people don't have these choices available to them. I don't blame anyone for making the difficult choice to terminate their pregnancy. 

nostangchick

Wow this thread is extremely long!! OK here is my 2 cents ...

I dont know what I would honestly do. I can admit that and it scares me to know that it could be a possible thing that I have to consider in the future but I pray I never have to.

Everyone says go work with your local special olympics and see how happy these kids are but those people are the ones not seeing the entire picture in my opinion. In order to give a good opinion I think you need to spend time with special children and adults. Go to your local psy. ward in any hospital or facility in your town most of those people have some sort of mental disability. I would also be interested in looking into the suicide rates of those with mental disabilities. Children may be carefree and happy no matter what but are the adults happy also? I wouldnt want to make that big of a decision without knowing the answers to all of these questions.

Spenjamins

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Stages of grief. Google it.  HTH. 

 Hah, those are not rules just guidelines. Your insolent tone gives you away by the way.

I think she has been honest through her "stages of grief". Have you taken the time to read her entire blog? 

Now you are making no sense.  Rules vs. guidelines? Huh? I have read her Blog - it's lovely.

bunny731

There was a woman who shared her repulsion of her disabled child in O Magazine a few years back. Lamenting, at first, that she gave her child a name she should have given a perfect child.

According to the story, one day she confided in her husband how much she hated her child, something her husband said to her changed her mind. Words to the affect, "You feed, care for him, hold him, rock him, change his diapers, day in and day out" a mother who hates her child would do none of that. She had realized that her repulsion, or dislike, was merely about mourning her own expectations, and developing new rules and expectations. It was a very moving, and very emotionally raw article.

melodylb

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Stages of grief. Google it.  HTH. 

 Hah, those are not rules just guidelines. Your insolent tone gives you away by the way.

I think she has been honest through her "stages of grief". Have you taken the time to read her entire blog? 

Now you are making no sense.  Rules vs. guidelines? Huh? I have read her Blog - it's lovely.

Here's the deal. No one knows if she is being honest or not. But if she is not, she sure put a lot out there that could be taken the wrong way.

I get it, you would kill your unborn child if they had a disability. IIII would not. To each their own. I can promise you that I  would not regret my decision in 20 years. Would YOU?

Shlei

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

Shlei:

Spenjamins:

melodylb:

"I've been thinking about perfection lately. I've stared at Nella so many late nights and marveled at her perfection. Because she is...perfect. And I wonder what it is about different that makes us think it's not perfect? Why is it that we set the bar higher and higher and expect ourselves, our children to be flawless? What is it we strive for and once we reach it--this perfection--what have we acheived? It's never enough. Even the razor I used in the shower this morning tries to outdo itself with now six blades layered to give a more perfect shave because apparently the five-bladed prior model didn't quite master the hairless perfection we're attempting to achieve.

It's just that I have learned so much about this perfection thing these past weeks, and I am finding myself cozily curling up with a new me. A me that has been cultivating for years, but is truly arriving to the place it's needed to be. The concept of perfect is not flawless or four-point-oh. It's happiness. Happiness with all its messiness and not-quite-there-ness. It's knowing that life is short, and the moments we choose to fill our cup with should be purposeful and colorful. And that's perfection. And our Nella--what the world may view far from perfection--has begun to teach me that."

This is taken from https://www.kellehampton.com/

Maybe you should read and really take it in. She has been honest with the whole situation. It is beautiful to read.

How do you know she is being honest? 

How do you know she isn't being honest? Are you so jaded as to think that everyone lies and feels ashamed? 

Stages of grief. Google it.  HTH. 

 Hah, those are not rules just guidelines. Your insolent tone gives you away by the way.

I think she has been honest through her "stages of grief". Have you taken the time to read her entire blog? 

Now you are making no sense.  Rules vs. guidelines? Huh? I have read her Blog - it's lovely.

 The point I am making is that the stages of grief do not apply to everyone. Not everyone will follow each and every stage.  Therefore they are the guidelines of what a person can go through but will not necessarily follow to a tee.

miesl

Mainer-in-Texas:

miesl:

DH and I would abort a child with CF.  See the sig, so yes, we know all too well what CF is.  The one lady with CF you know died at 27!  That is not a full life, no matter how much living you cram into it. 

As someone who has CF, I find this to be absolutely ridiculous and and offense. 

I know many people with CF and I have NEVER heard anyone say they haven't lived a full life, and I would bet all the money I have that you would be hard pressed to find someone say that.  Would your DH say that?

Taken in the perspective of "Have you enjoyed your life and gotten everything you could have done up until now done even though you've had to deal with CF." Yes, a full life.

In the perspective of "Will I be able to grow old with my wife and watch the children I'm struggling to have grow up and have children of their own?" Not so much.

Or "Have I lost more lung function this clinic visit?  I'm struggling to keep my FEV1 at 50% as it is."

Or "Will have have to go on IVs and take STD again?"

Or "What if I run out of FMLA time?"

Or "I'm resistant to most antibiotics what treatment options do I have left?" (and forbid we had a child with CF who caught one of his pan-resistant PA strains as a baby).

Also, not so much.

Or "Will the poor quality of TESE sperm and PGD (both CF related issues) take away my hope for having a biological child?" 

Yeah, the moment I had to hold my DH when he realized that CF might take away his dream of having a biological child...  "I've never hated having CF as much as I do right now."  and "I can't let it take this from me too."  Yes, CF massively contributes to a full and healthy life.

No matter how wonderful life is and how many glasses of lemonade are made out of the lemons life hands you... a mean life expectancy of 38 sucks when compared to the 70+ life expectancy for others.

Also, from my perspective... statistics say I will be a young widow.  There's nothing wonderful and filling about that.  In the end that means DH and I aren't willing to subject CF on another person.  (FYI, his much healthier older brother, also with CF, isn't willing to have a CF child either.)  It doesn't mean I love him less... but I wish he didn't have CF.

miesl

In_It_4_Good:

miesl:

I'll join the outsider club as well.  DH and I would abort a child with CF.  See the sig, so yes, we know all too well what CF is. 

So, basically you're saying you think your DH should've been aborted. Right?

He is not willing to bring a child into this world with CF.  Neither am I.  His parents should not have chosen to have another child after they knew it was a 25% chance of having a baby with CF. 

I love him dearly and cannot imagine life without him, but that is not the point.  You're trying to play to the emotions I have tied to DH at this point in time.  I wouldn't know any different had he never been born.  It doesn't make me love him any less to say that I wouldn't subject another person to the heartache that is CF.