Covid Thread

doula-mama

This is the place to talk all things Covid, and to ask for and share (evidence based, peer reviewed) information. Covid and pregnancy can be scary to navigate, so let's support each other through our pandemic pregnancies. 

This thread is NOT for political debates about vaccines, mandates, etc. 

doxiemoxie212

I asked my OB at my appt on Friday about a third dose/booster of the mRNA vaccines, and she said she'd definitely recommend it, but if I'm able to be careful (mask, social distance, etc), she'd like to try to push as close to third trimester as possible so there's a higher chance I can pass some antibodies onto baby. I got mine in April, so I'll be at the 8 month mark in December. So would just be pushing that ever so slightly to wait until January for the booster. I'm really happy there's an opportunity to get a third shot while I'm pregnant! 

loveanddatadriven

Some good news came out this week of a study showing the Covid vaccine does not increase risk of miscarriage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117969/

loveanddatadriven

@doxiemoxie212 I love the idea of getting a third tri booster since I’ll be due for one as well. I’m going to ask about it at my next appointment.

doxiemoxie212

@loveanddatadriven yeah I figure it's never too early to ask because last time there was such a mad dash, I don't want to be waiting for my OB to reply to an email or something while I'm trying to get a booster slot or something. (You'd think it wouldn't have to be that way again, but they took down almost all of our vaccine infrastructure here since we're at 97% partially vaccinated and 90% fully vaccinated among those eligible here so I imagine it'll be nuts again). 

aloha_mama

The CDC hasn’t authorized a third dose for the general population yet, and not only am I pregnant but I’m nine months from my series completion, so I’m vulnerable. Trying not to be super anxious about it, but at least our state now has the restaurants, bars, etc requiring proof of vaccination to enter. That at least is a relief but we have so many tourists that just self-centeredly run over all our guidelines that it might not make a difference anyways. 

kiwi2628

So I’ll be due for the booster mid-November. I will probably ask my midwife what she thinks I should do. My state and especially my county have really right vaccine rates so I might try to push a bit closer to third tri

Ivorytower2

It would be great to get a third tri booster to try to get some immunity for baby. Ugh, I got decently high fevers with both doses so I definitely would want to wait until I’m feeling better/closer to third tri.

monstera13

I’m due for my booster at the end of this month. I think I’ll probably take the shot as soon as it’s available rather than waiting til the third trimester because I work in a big inpatient setting and would rather have more immunity to COVID as soon as possible. It’s hard to decide though! Looking forward to talking about it with my new OB. 

Avrilmai

@monstera13 I’m in a similar situation. My 8 month mark is the end of this month and I have direct patient care. I’d rather have that extra protection for me and baby. 
I asked my OB at my initial visit and she was like as soon as you can get it get. They actually offer it in their office, but since it hasn’t been fully approved yet as a booster the nurse couldn’t schedule me. 

shlecks

I'm going to talk to my OB about it.  One of my clients is an ICU doctor and he said that they've started sort of discouraging healthy people from getting boosters because of how effective the initial vaccine actually is.  I'm not sure if it's preservation of supply or what, but I hadn't heard that before yesterday so I thought it was interesting.

doula-mama

We're only giving booster shots to severely immunocompromised people here (BC), so it doesn't look like that'll be an option for me

zamoraspin

I got the J&J back in March and I’m hoping boosters will become available later this year mostly so I can pass on increased immunity to these two. I think partly the reason boosters are not yet being offered is many people in the world have yet to get access to even a first round of shots, meanwhile the US is poised to offer boosters (does not look great) AND kids under 12 may be able to get Pfizer before year end which will will take up a lot of doses. I feel pretty good about the protection I have but am masking in any public indoor spaces and DS2 is as well. He is getting so good about his mask but I do wish all adults would wear them because it definitely helps him. We are in TN and are leading the country in all the terrible statistics (including really high cases among kids).

shlecks

@zamoraspin2 I'm in TN too.  Gotta be #1 at something!  😒

doxiemoxie212

Our county still requires masks indoors for anyone 2y+ and everyone abides, and our county is extremely vaccinated (90% fully, 97% partially for those eligible). But also in my other bmb alone I know 3 people who got pretty bad (not hospitalized but definitely the worst cold of their lives) breakthrough infections despite full mrna vaccination. My FIL takes arthritis meds and he got ZERO immunity from the first two mrna vaccines. Thankfully he did a sneaky booster back in May and did end up receiving immunity from it. He only discovered it because he has smoldering myeloma so his doctor does regular bloodwork and he lives in NYC so there was a lot of antibody testing infrastructure. 

bien-aimee

97% partially vaccinated and 90% full?? Where do you live 😭 I'm in AZ and we are barely pulling in at 50% fully vaxxed. It's been so divisive in our community, it's exhausting. I'll be eligible for a booster in Jan, will probably get it in February so I'm fully in 3rd trimester and hopefully pass on some antibodies to baby.

meow719

No kidding @bien-aimee!!! I live in Indiana and we are barely at 50%. It is beyond frustrating at his point. 

doxiemoxie212

@bien-aimee California lol 

SmashJam

Is anyone planning on asking docs and nurses where they give birth about their views on covid? I've heard lots of news lately involving docs and nurses that are anti vax or believe in treating with ivermectin or think the pandemic is a hoax and I think I'd have a hard time trusting the judgement of people making decisions about my life if they thought current medical science was bullshit and we're coughing on people in picket lines in their spare time. I dunno how honest people would be but just something I'm (over)thinking about, lol.

aloha_mama

@SmashJam I don’t know about other hospitals but where I work, we aren’t allowed to treat patients based on personal beliefs or conspiracy theories. Everything is very strictly moderated by government agencies and regulations. And most— if not all— hospitals will require their employees to be vaccinated by the time we get to April, with very few exceptions. Both my hospitals have begun terminating employment for staff that are refusing the vaccine. If a hospital isn’t following evidence-based practice, CDC and FDA guidelines, and up-to-date technology and medication protocols, then they shouldn’t be in business and you would definitely hear about that stuff ahead of time because it would just be a shit hospital anyways.

With that being said, this is totally within the realm of appropriate conversations to be having with your OB or CNM. I’m not sure how much you’d be able to talk with the nurses about it because there are usually a whole lot of them and you won’t know who will be on when you deliver. 

doxiemoxie212

@SmashJam I would if they didn't require vaccination at our hospital. I think anyone who is crazy would be honest about it because they wouldn't realize they're nuts. 

robbenson

@bien-aimee I'm in AZ too and I can't believe it. Our government is actually protecting us for free and people won't do it.  With it being hot here I want to do indoor stuff with my almost 3 year old son but I don't feel comfortable at the Phoenix Children's Art Museum or Giggles with all of the people who just don't care.

loveanddatadriven

I just found out that the hospital at which I’m planning to deliver now mandates Covid vaccination for staff (enforced with termination of employment starting next month).

bluecampanula

@loveanddatadriven ours already did that. They were about a month ahead of the state-wide mandate.  Not even legit medical exemptions were accepted. Overall the hospital took a significant hit with staff, in an already short staffed time. But I don’t think labor & delivery was affected because it’s such a coveted position. All the midwives at the free standing birth center in town are also vaccinated. 

taylorz8912

My midwife told me to absolutely not get it while pregnant. How do we know long term side effects yet ? It hasn’t even been a year . Also, they use to prescribe zofran for pregnant woman and that has been removed as safe for pregnancy due to heart defects when babies were born . We’re all human , just because the government said so doesn’t mean it’s safe . Not trying to get into a debate just sharing my midwifes comments . Also want to mention I’m not antivaxx . I just think people should have their own medical freedom and not feel persecuted for it 

kiwi2628

@taylorz8912 actually these types of vaccine have been around for a decade.  Plus, vaccines work differently than medications from a pharmico-physiologic standpoint and have been largely proven to be overwhelmingly safe during pregnancy over the past century, especially outside the first trimester. Not trying to convince you- that’s not my job. Just giving you some other perspective. My midwives, RE, OB and doula all are pro-vaccine in second and third tri. 

taylorz8912

@kiwi2628 The actual vaccine hasn’t been around for decades or else they would have rolled it out as soon as covid started happening . They have been researching for a vaccine for a bit now without being successful until about a year ago  . My mother is a nurse so I hear some crazy stories as far as covid and the vaccines . Once again not trying to stir anything up as I respect everyone’s opinions and decisions . 

kiwi2628

@taylorz8912 no of course the vaccine for this specific coronavirus wasn’t made but the technology of vaccines has been in its modern existence for 100 years and in primitive forms for 300 years. But the specific mRNA vaccines were made around a decade ago for other types of coronavirus strains (SARS).  That’s why they were able to make the vaccines so quickly for this coronavirus- because they already had the template. They just needed the specific language of the virus, so to speak.

My friend worked on the vaccines so that’s why I know quite a bit (Pfizer) about it and why I feel pretty confident with it. 

doula-mama

@taylorz8912 I’d be asking your midwife some serious questions. What she is telling you is going against the position of the American College of Nurse-Midwives (assuming you’re American), the ACOG, and many other professional colleges, in a whole range of countries.  https://www.acog.org/news/news-releases/2021/08/statement-of-strong-medical-consensus-for-vaccination-of-pregnant-individuals-against-covid-19

If she isn’t following standard practice for this because of her personal beliefs (because it doesn’t sound like she gave you any scientific evidence?), I’d be questioning what other areas she doesn’t follow standards of care. 

It’s definitely your decision, but please make sure you are armed with appropriate, evidence based and peer reviewed, scientific information. There are very scary stats about the complications for the fetus from Covid during pregnancy, including placental failure, IUGR, and preterm birth. There’s also strong evidence showing that vaccination in pregnancy passes antibodies to the baby, as well as via breastmilk if you choose to nurse. Happy to share some links if you want, but didn’t want to overwhelm you. 

Ivorytower2

Speaking of vaccines, really positive Pfizer news today for kids ages 5-11. How are you all feeling about getting your kids vaccinated assuming the FDA approves it within the next few weeks?

monstera13

@Ivorytower2 That’s such good news! DS3 (almost 4) is not old enough but I’ll be having him get it as soon as his age group is approved. 

doula-mama

@Ivorytower2 My little ones are 1.5 and almost 3; as soon as they can get it, they will be!

kiwi2628

My kids are too young for it (3 and 19 months), but once one is approved for their age group I will be first on line. 

doxiemoxie212

taylorz8912 said:

My midwife told me to absolutely not get it while pregnant. How do we know long term side effects yet ? It hasn’t even been a year . Also, they use to prescribe zofran for pregnant woman and that has been removed as safe for pregnancy due to heart defects when babies were born . We’re all human , just because the government said so doesn’t mean it’s safe . Not trying to get into a debate just sharing my midwifes comments . Also want to mention I’m not antivaxx . I just think people should have their own medical freedom and not feel persecuted for it 

This is bad medical advice. ACOG has recommended it for pregnant women. If Covid did not affect pregnant women then maybe it would be worth waiting to see, but we know that Covid has worse outcome for pregnant women, and that the risk of stillbirth is very high if women get Covid. It's like not wearing a seatbelt while pregnant because you're afraid the seatbelt might hurt the baby in a car crash - the car crash without a seatbelt will hurt baby more. If you'd like more information Doctor Mama Jones and Dr. Marta Perez on IG are both board certified OBGYNs who have done a lot of work producing information about the covid vaccine and pregnancy. 

zamoraspin

@Ivorytower2 My son is 2 and as soon as they approve it for his age group I will get him an appt to be vaccinated. His pedi thought it would be early next year for 2-5 but I do hope they are able to give approval/emergency use this year given the terrible surge we’re seeing in kids. 

zamoraspin

@taylorz8912 I hesitate to say anything because the other ladies have said a lot of what I would encourage you to consider and I don’t want you to feel anyone is “ganging up.” But also please understand that as a pregnant person we know that you are at significantly increased risk of complications from COVID-19. 

On the other hand, we know that in every case of vaccines that have ever been studied for long term effects, there are none. Vaccine reactions happen soon after administration of a vaccine. Here is a write-up by a large children’s hospital on this issue, but it’s one of many resources that explain why “waiting to see what the long-term effects are” is actually moot. 

https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine

As others have pointed out the mRNA vaccines for COVID are based on existing vaccines that have been around for years. If you are uncomfortable with mRNA vaccines J&J is available in the US and is a viral vector vaccine, for people outside the US I think many countries have access to another viral vector vaccine. 

aloha_mama

taylorz8912 said:

My midwife told me to absolutely not get it while pregnant. How do we know long term side effects yet ? It hasn’t even been a year . Also, they use to prescribe zofran for pregnant woman and that has been removed as safe for pregnancy due to heart defects when babies were born . We’re all human , just because the government said so doesn’t mean it’s safe . Not trying to get into a debate just sharing my midwifes comments . Also want to mention I’m not antivaxx . I just think people should have their own medical freedom and not feel persecuted for it 

I’m going to try not to say much because everything I want to say has pretty much been covered, but I would love to know where your midwife is getting their information from since it doesn’t correlate with any EBP or current rigorous medical research. I am a nurse and I work directly with unvaccinated COVID positive mothers and their babies when they go to the NICU, so I see firsthand the effects COVID has on newborns. I also work in a COVID vaccine clinic. I have not heard or experienced any “crazy” stories about the vaccine. And as stated in the original post of this thread, this is not the place to be debating vaccine efficacy or the politics involved.

loveanddatadriven

@taylorz8912 I’m sorry you feel persecuted for sharing how you feel about Covid-19 vaccination while pregnant. And I’m not surprised you feel the way you do when your trusted care provider is giving you guidance that contradicts the opinions of people you don't necessarily trust. I mostly wanted to say that I hope you hang with us and we can continue respectfully sharing thoughts, opinions, and experiences. (Not necessarily about Covid if you don't want.)

This got long:

I’m a scientist, and I have a PhD in a relevant field. I design clinical trials to evaluate the safety and efficacy of medicine and devices. I read the trial design and results of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines cover to cover. I’m not saying this to convince you I know better than most, just that I don’t give a shit what the government thinks of the vaccines and that I didn’t get my info from a press release. I personally think the majority of pregnant women and their unborn children are safer getting Covid-19 vaccinated for all of the reasons previously discussed in other responses.

I absolutely defend your right to medical autonomy. People are healthier when they engage in their own healthcare. I hope you are able to arrive at all of your healthcare decisions with full, high-quality information on your side and without coercion or bullying.

I hope you found the responses on this thread supportive, and I am interested in your reaction. Feel free to PM me. I thought you were brave to disclose your feelings in a group of people that support Covid vaccination. I also really admire the thoughtfulness you are putting into the healthcare of yourself and your sweet baby. ❤️

To everyone else:

I'm interested to see where this conversation goes, even if it's (borderline?) too political, to see if it produced more good than bad. People like taylorz8912 who are distrustful but not outright dismissive of Covid-19 vaccination are an important part of our community and they are often too quiet given fear of 'persecution'. Their concerns deserve to be heard and respected. I also learned a lot during this conversation myself.

aloha_mama

@loveanddatadriven Very well said. I have the unfortunate tendency to get upset and make hot-headed replies to people that are completely unwarranted. Your post was really thoughtful and well written.

@taylorz8912 I apologize profusely if I added to your feelings of being attacked and bullied. Medical autonomy is important regardless of circumstances. You seem to be a careful, thoughtful person that is just trying to do what’s best for you and your baby, which is all we can really do. This is a weird time in our lives for many reasons and we’re all trying to navigate as best we can, and I applaud you for your bravery in speaking up and hope I/we didn’t drive you away.

doxiemoxie212

@loveanddatadriven tone is difficult to convey on the internet, so I want to preface this by saying that I appreciate the sentiment, and I don't feel any ill will toward Taylor or anything, but I want to point out that there's this rhetoric about accepting alternative viewpoints about things like vaccines, etc., but no one ever says, "We have to let the flat earth people have their say, they're valuable members of our society." And at some point there *is* a line between truth and misinformation. The situation we're in right now is like contagious drunk driving - it's different than a personal choice (like drinking and just staying inside your own house might be). Every human life is important, but their viewpoints, if those viewpoints harm others, are not. And I'm not saying Taylor's viewpoints are at that line, but her midwife's probably are. 

doula-mama

@loveanddatadriven I have to say, I agree with @doxiemoxie212 on this. Although we should be supportive and definitely not attack one another over choices around this, I think as a community we should engage in discussions and education. As you well know, the evidence is overwhelmingly strong that pregnant people are at high risk of complications, and that the vaccines are generally safe. (Side note - Yes, I know that there is a small group of people who will have adverse reactions. The same happens with food and other medications, but we would never not give a life-saving drug to someone based on a rare adverse reactions, with no reason to think the patient would have an allergy.) In the same way, if someone in the group posted a picture with the baby unsafely in a car seat - we should support and educate them. I'm not saying we should shame anyone for not knowing better (about the vaccine, covid risks, car seat safety, etc.), but we should educate each other, and not leave them ignorantly unsafe. 

Also - this isn't something that affects just the person making the decision. A misinformed decision puts both that person and those around them at risk. A recent mandate that I saw was a hospital in Ontario, that won't allow unvaccinated partners/support people in the hospital with the birthing person. It was posted in a doula group, and was met with a lot of outrage - but at the same time, yes, they have the right to make their choice to not get vaccinated, but that choice has consequences, and an individual's 'medical freedom' does not include the right to put others (in this case, the care team for the birth, which also cascades down to other patients on the ward) at risk. 

I will also agree that tone is hard to read on the internet - my impression so far is that the responses to Taylor have all be civil and respectful (and yours most definitely was). None of this is a criticism, just my opinion that although engaging people who are hesitant is definitely a good thing, handling them with kid gloves doesn't necessarily help.