IF Testing & Treatment w/o 4.26

optimistgardener · April 2021

@bumblebee0210 aww! So sorry you've been feeling down about it. I can completely understand why but I guess just know that from afar you seem pretty rock star (in a fertility board kind of way). I'm thinking back on my medicated cycles and trying to recall if I had pms symptoms but I guess if I had any they were thoroughly cloaked by the full-body weirdness of progesterone supps, and then whenever I'm depressed at the end of my cycle I always blame it on the ubiquitous BFN. I'm sure it must be a quite novel experience to be feeling the full hormonal rollercoaster but without the usual "but maybe I'm pregnant?" mental stuff.

keikilove · April 2021

Never did my check-in for this week. Work has been a heavy load.

Diagnosis (if you've been): RPL/RIF, DQ Alpha match, blood-clotting disorders, AMA, DOR

Status (WTO/TWW/TTA): TWW, half-heartedly

What are you doing this cycle? (Testing? Treatment?): We did another IUI last week. I was supposed to be benched this cycle in order to do another endometrial biopsy for my RI, but my RE was like “Time is of the essence and your insurance now covers IUIs so let’s knock these out so we know if you need to do another round of IVF.” So I’ve been a bit stressed about when to do the endometrial biopsy. If MH’s sperm is still terrible next month I think we will skip that IUI, be truly benched, and do that biopsy. I also asked my RE about doing a laparoscopy, which is the only invasive thing I haven’t done yet, so maybe that will be next month as well. (Lap would be to see if I have silent endo/adenomyosis.)

How are things going?: OK. Work has been a little overwhelming so have been making efforts to keep my stress levels down.

Any questions?: NATM

GTKY: Do you have any good luck charms, things you interpret as good omens, or good luck rituals? My entire family believes that when we see red cardinals that it is our mom stopping by to say hi. She loved red cardinals. // This may sound silly, but last year I signed up for a fertility finance coach and she advised us to respect all money no matter how small the amount. She said that when we see coins on the ground, be sure to pick them up. She said that it’s the Universe reminding us that there is plenty/abundance for all, and that the finances will always work themselves out. Ever since then I find coins on the ground almost every time I leave my house.// I’ve also said the exact same prayer for many years that I made up for when my plane is taking off.

lizzi97 · April 2021

Diagnosis (if you've been): unexplained infertility

Status (WTO/TWW/TTA): currently post egg retrieval; genetic testing is getting done on the embryos, should get results early next week

What are you doing this cycle? (Testing? Treatment?): hanging out and waiting for results

How are things going?: pretty good, still feeling crummy 10 days post egg retrieval

Any questions?: I'm new and can't figure out many of the acronyms!

GTKY: not really, but when I get shots in my belly, I squeeze a throw pillow and shove my face in it. Does that count as a ritual?

photographerwife · April 2021

@kiki047 I felt really good when I did keto too. I was surprised at how quickly our bodies adapt to not craving the sugar and extra carbs. I keep saying I should do it again, but im just being lazy. I have a few keto cookbooks by marie emmerich, that you should check out if you're still looking for recipes! hope everything is going well with the bc and starting stims.

@acleverusername Im glad youve had alot to occupy your mind! I know you're a researcher on all this stuff, so i bet its a relief! AND your dog is adorable!!! Im glad your cycle with Dr. Aimee was beneficial, she sounds awesome! And im glad youre getting those answers on the genetic thing. Hopefully with all of that, your IVF cycle will go smoothly.

@optimistgardener Im not sure about the doxy either. My doc gave it to me after my HSG too and said it was probably overkill, so maybe theyre just being extra cautious for your cycle? Hope your dog is okay now! that sounds terrible! Love the rainbows!

@laura-kay hope your work week hasnt been too bad!

@BusinessWife hope your cycle goes well! sending love!

@bumblebee0210 Fx for you that your embies are doing well and that you dont have to do too many more ERs. sending love!

@inthewoods23 *violent waving*

@bows22 hope your biopsy goes well!! And that your insurance coverage is good! Its BS that people have to pay oop for infertility! It sounds like we'll both be moving into similar cycles soon. FX for you!

Diagnosis (if you've been): unexplained secondary infertility, one fallopian tube

Status (WTO/TWW/TTA): TWW

What are you doing this cycle? (Testing? Treatment?): Nothing this cycle, i didnt even track. Just taking my vitamins.

How are things going?: Good! We had our appt with our RE yesterday. He went over my history and has suggested that we start with IUI, with low dose Clomid, and he will monitor me throughout to make sure I have at least one follicle? on my left side where my remaining tube is, before proceeding with IUI. I really should have recorded our convo. I was so stressed yesterday that I barely ate, and had a stress headache by the time we were seen. 😬My BCBS insurance requires a pre-authorization beforehand, so he sent that off yesterday, and once it is back he wants to see me again to check my egg reserve, and to do an ultrasound. Im glad that we went ahead and did the hsg and SA with my OB so we wont be wasting anymore time. And hopefully my ovaries cooperate with Clomid, Im assuming if there isnt a follicle on the left side then we could skip that cycle.. and that seems like alot potential ups and downs and appointments. I dont think we will be able to start this next cyle because i should start AF any day now, and they expect the pre-auth to take about a week. So heres to hoping that this all moves along quickly and that my body cooperates! In the meantime, im going to get my covid vaccines. Hope you guys have a good weekend!

Any questions?: Not really, unless you have any input on the above.

GTKY: Do you have any good luck charms, things you interpret as good omens, or good luck rituals?
I used to look for all the good luck charms with ttc. bell pepper babies, special dates and all that, but now im jaded and angry.

😅
edit spelling

keikilove · April 2021

@kiki047 @optimistgardener Glad that both of you are able to get this party started! FX that your lining is thick enough, Kiki, and that you won’t feel stressed about it. Also, @kiki047 I just read an article last night that made me think of you. It was about using Neupogen as a uterine wash to thicken the lining very quickly. Great results with IVF, and it helps embryo development through the first 6 weeks. I can’t find the link now but there are lots of articles online about using it this way. There was also this article on Tacrolimus, not sure if it applies to you. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268280770_Immunosuppression_with_Tacrolimus_Improved_Reproductive_Outcome_of_Women_with_Repeated_Implantation_Failure_and_Elevated_Peripheral_Blood_Th1Th2_Cell_Ratios

@acleverusername That is so great that you have Dr. Aimee to consult with when your new RE makes recommendations. Best of luck with it!

@bumblebee0210 Hooray for a couple more embryos! I love @BusinessWife’s analogy about the grading as it would relate to kindergarteners.

@bows22 That is amazing that the cost is coming down to 1/10th of what you expected!!! The universe is lining things up for you.😉

@businesswife I’d never heard of laser acupuncture, so no studies to answer your question. But I have seen quality studies that cited regular acupuncture as making a distinct improvement on IVF outcomes. Hope this helps somewhat.

@optimistgardener Doxy is super common in IVF cycles. Basically, some doctors use it as a precaution when a catheter is inserted, since the catheter itself could potentially introduce infection. Some doctors will put you on Doxy only before transfer to make sure you don’t get an infection at such a crucial time. Others will put you on it 30 days in advance to make sure that any hidden infections have been wiped out of your system before retrieving eggs. Sometimes the doctor will prescribe the AAA protocol: antibacterial, anti fungal, antiviral. They do that very commonly at CNY Fertility, an affordable chain of IVF clinics across the East Coast and Colorado.

ETA:
@lizzy97 Welcome! Hope you start to feel better, that seems like a long time to feel crummy after your ER. There is an acronym list somewhere in the Intro to TTGP threads at the top of the board. They are a lot to get used to at first.

@photographerwife Congrats on completing that first meeting with your RE! There’s always so much to remember in those first appointments. FX your pre-auth comes through fast so you can begin your first IUI cycle. Excited for you!

inthewoods23 · April 2021

@keikilove cardinals were my grandma's favorite bird so now every time I see them I believe she and my grandpa are watching me!

@photographerwife *violently waves back* I am DYING over your violent wave. I had to make sure I read it right because I thought maybe it said violet and I was being dyslexic.

bumblebee0210 · April 2021

@optimistgardener. Knowing I am for sure not KU is actually the *best* part of this whole ordeal. It has been so long on the monthly roller coaster and just being like "nope this is just how my body feels, I am not taking it as a secret signal of anything" has been weirdly refreshing.

@keikilove. That's such a weird spot to be in-- where you are just knocking out IUIs even though it may not be the best treatment for you. Who knows maybe you'll be a *just relax*-er in the end and it will work!

@lizzi97 Welcome! Sorry you're still feeling crummy-- I agree with @keikilove I think that's a pretty long time to still feel bad. Is it GI? Or more systemic? If you fell *really* bad it might be an infection, so I would let someone know, but if it's just the blues it might be the withdrawal from hormones. It's like hyper-PMS.

@photographerwife. Sounds like you are handling the calm before the storm pretty well. Fx all the bureaucracy stuff goes smoothly!

lizzi97 · April 2021

@bumblebee0210 @keikilove thanks for the concern, but no, it's not serious; more like an awful case of the blues, fatigue, and bloating. I still can't fit comfortably into normal pants

optimistgardener · April 2021

@lizzi97 I am probably just *that* annoying patient who over-reports all her symptoms to the doctor, but if you're still feeling pretty bloated a week and a half after retrieval it doesn't hurt to let the clinic know what's up.

@bumblebee0210 I sort of figured that might be the case. I imagine I would/will feel much the same.

bows22 · April 2021

@keikilove ugh that is stressful about fitting in the biopsy. I don’t want YH’s sperm to be terrible but I want you to be able to fit in so I don’t know what to hope for (so I’m just going to hope that this cycle is successful and none of it matters!)

@photographerwife oh yay if you do your IUI next cycle (and assuming I’m able to do mine too) we will probably be doing them at about the same time! It will be nice to have a cycle buddy for that!

AFM my insurance does in fact have unlimited IUI coverage! Bring on all the IUIs!

kiki047 · April 2021

@optimistgardener omg your dog!! Holy smokes that's a lot to go through in a short time. And oof, sorry about the withdrawal bleed - it kicked my ass this week but I think it's finally starting to ease up.
@bows22 that's great news about your biopsy, and about the costs too. And you're definitely not being impatient, I don't think anyone sees it that way at all! and YAY for insurance coverage!!
@bumblebee0210 ah yes, the post-ER hormone crash. Not super looking forward to that....
@keikilove your quote from your fertility finance coach gave me chills. I like that. My mom believes that finding dimes is a sign from my grandfather too, and so it doesn't help that I've had the same dime on my front porch for like a year and I'm pretty sure she thinks it's a new one every time she comes over. After your comment now I think I'll go finally pick it up lol. And thank you for that tip on the neupogen and the link. I'll take a look!
@lizzi97 hi! Welcome! Sorry you find yourself here but it sounds like you've found us at the right time. Did YH (your husband) do your shots for you? How did your ER go (other than feeling crummy now)? I also took a while to get back to normal post-ER, and then my period that cycle was so bad I actually threw up and had to stay home from work.
@photographerwife I've had a couple cheat days and I felt super shitty after I ate bread but the days we've had rice/rice noodles neither one of us gained any weight or even got kicked out of ketosis so I think we're onto something lol. Meaning when we cheat it should be sushi, yay! LOL. Thanks for the recommendation on the cookbook, I'll check it out! Glad your mtg with your RE went well. I know the feeling about it just being a blur. Write down questions as you think of them after the fact so you can follow up!

AFM, things are going well. My RE is "pleased" with how I'm progressing, though I don't actually get an update on AFC and follicle development until tomorrow. He's re-considering his plan again and now wants to try to push me a little harder because he's happy with what he's seeing on my scans (right now I'm only on .05cc of Lupron, 75iu Gonal-F and 37.5iu of Menopur). What this means is I probably then won't be able to do a fresh transfer. I'm a little bummed about that but also swayed by the idea of possibly getting more eggs. Trying to temper my expectations since I know things can still change. Especially since I'm having another adverse reaction to the menopur so we may have to cut that out entirely which is adding a new layer of stress. My brain is in overdrive - what if I need the menopur? They're just welts, maybe it's not so bad? There isn't really another product on the market like menopur (combined FSH and LH) and he doesn't want to muck around with the gonadotropins by doubling up on Gonal-F (FSH) and adding Luveris (LH) if I'm just going to react to that too. *shrug* In the end, I trust his instincts so we will take it one day at a time.

bows22 · April 2021

@kiki047 ugh that would stress me out too about the menopur. But you’re right, you have a great RE who seems really invested in your journey so I don’t think he would steer you wrong. But it’s stressful. I’ll be waiting to see your official update after you get it tomorrow!

[Deleted User] · April 2021

@kiki047 glad the eating is going well! I have not been as strict this past week, and I'm okay with that. Luckily my cheats have been whole foods, so I don't feel like garbage lol although maybe I shouldn't tell you we had sushi last weekend 😬 I'm sorry about all the stimming stress and maybe no fresh transfer. I always feel like the bad news I can handle, it's the LIMBO stuff, not knowing, that's the hardest. ❤️

@bows22 lol Give me alllll the iuis! 🤣 I have always said that, if IUI had even been on the table, we would have just done a million of them until it worked lol Hopefully it doesn't take *that* many...

keikilove · April 2021

@kiki047 Oh that is too funny about the dime on your porch & your mom probably thinking it’s a new one every time. Girl, go pick up that dime and be .10c richer!😄 Also, sorry to hear about your reaction to the Menopur and how the new plan eliminates a fresh cycle. Can I ask why it will make a fresh transfer impossible? Is it because you will have too many hormones built up by that time? Last, I’m not sure if this is helpful, but when I did IVF in MX they gave me a stimming med called Pergoveris in place of Menopur. Not sure whether you have access to it in Canada, but it’s another FSH/LH combo med.

@bows22 That is excellent news about your IUI coverage!!! 💃🏼 Happy dance 💃🏼 What a relief that you now have this option, and that you’re going to save so much moolah. Let’s make it an IUI party every month! 🎊 Orrrrr, let’s hope that your first one is successful!🤞🏽

@inthewoods23 Aaaawww, you gotta love those sweet cardinals coming around.❤️ P.S. I love it when you pop in here like old times.😉

kiki047 · April 2021

@bows22 if it was anyone else I'd probably stress more but my RE seems to really "get" me, he even offered to do my shot for me in case maybe I was just doing something wrong lol. You should see the circle he drew on my belly, it looks like a 3 year old did it

@businesswife oh I definitely cheated last weekend, lol. We were helping BIL and SIL move/clean and all they offered us to eat was donuts and pizza so... I ate some. And then had some sushi for my dad's birthday the next day. Meh. It was fine, took me a couple days to get back on track but I don't think there was any harm done.
@keikilove Yeah it's because of my hormone levels and the possibility of being borderline hyperstimulated. And like, he's suuuper conservative in the first place, when he says he wants to "push" me he's talking maybe 8-10 eggs as opposed to 4-5. Thanks for the tip on the Pergoveris. We don't even have Clomid up here so while I can see it is approved by health canada, it doesn't come up in my pharmacy search. :'( Canada sucks that way. It's ok, he doubled my Gonal-F today and worse case scenario we just add the menopur back in closer to my ER date. Last time I only took it the last 3 days leading up to trigger.

laura-kay · May 2021

@acleverusername Have a blessed Holy Saturday and Pascha!

acleverusername · May 2021

Holy wow busy thread this week!

@bows22 so excited to hear about your unlimited IUIs!!! Bring it on! Does insurance cover injectables too? Btw, I totally get the sentiment “we weren’t ready before now.” Same for MH and I... the cycle with Dr Aimee gave us the info we needed to say “okay, this won’t work so let’s pivot.” It’s actually a great feeling cause feeling like you’ve wasted time can add so much stress! Also happy that you’ll hopefully have a cycle buddy in
@photographerwife.

@optimistgardener did you get the green light from your RE to start stimming? Or are they having you come in tomorrow before giving the green light? Also, re: you dog... wow! Poor you guys! I had struggled with my decision of whether or not to get pet insurance for ours and after hearing stories like yours, just ran towards it!

@kiki047 I love that your RE is so hands on and flexible about changing your protocol. Also cute that he offered to do your shot for you! That sucks about not having all the meds allowed in Canada. So bizarre especially about Clomid that’s been on the market for decades! Ah well, there are some stuff that’s available in Canada but not in the US too, though I haven’t come across many things wrt to fertility yet. I hope you get good news on tour scan today!!! 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 More eggs! More eggs! (PS I’m also really surprised at how low the dosages your RE is using but I guess it makes sense given PCOS. And also, given the raging pandemic in ON, you don’t want to be going to the hospital with OHSS right now.)

@keikilove good luck with this IUI! 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 Did you get a response about having a laparoscopy? I actually asked Doc Aimee about that and she told me that I should just wait for the Receptiva Dx to see if there’s cause for concern re: silent endo. You’ve had that done, right? Or is that one of the reasons for endometrial biopsy? Also thanks for explaining role of doxy in ER cycles.I’ll have to see if that’s something my RE recommends for us.

@photographerwife first of, a sad “lol” at you now being jaded and angry. I hear you sister. So happy that you had what sounds like a good RE appointment. The Clomid plus IUI protocol sounds like a good first step. Here’s to getting all the paperwork out of the way and then getting this show on the road! Oh, it’s worthwhile remembering that you can still get pregnant even if the follicle is on the “wrong” side vis-a-vis your tube, but it does reduces chances by about 30%. And (paging) @krash_ can certainly vouch for success when you ovulate on the side of your functioning tube.

@lizzi97 I hope you’re feeling better better now! Are you willing to share how many eggs were retrieved / fertilized / made it to Day 5 for biopsy? Regardless, I hope the wait isn’t too painful! Will you be doing the ERA/Receptiva Dx testing before your transfer?

@bumblebee0210 I hope you’re feeling a bit better today. I can sympathize with the comfort in knowing that you’re not PG each month. Have you met with your RE yet to see if you’re making changes to the protocol this next round?

@laura-kay 🙏

AFM, no updates since were just cruising through to the end of the cycle. Luckily I O’ed late again so current cycle will be finishing up just as my appointment with RE starts.

optimistgardener · May 2021

[edit: apologies for length]

*wanders through the door, cursing roundly*

*throws herself on the couch*

*curses some more*

Hi y'all. Can I rant?

My "practice" transfer and suppression check was this morning. The practice transfer was, to quote the RE, "easy-peasy." But the minute he turned his attention to my ovary, the only thing you could see on the screen was a huge black void, which he quickly identified for me as a Gigantic Cyst. I don't remember the exact measurements but something like 36.9 or 39.6mm. He said he could also see a few (like 4) cowering little antral follicles, but says they won't do anything because they've been overwhelmed by the hormonal force field of the Giant Cyst. I will admit I was not actually that surprised, since for the last several nights I've been waking up in the middle of the night with stabbing pain in my ovary, and I seem to remember that one of you ladies had just experienced the same thing when I first started reading this board. Anyhow, everyone at the clinic was super sympathetic and treated me very softly with kid gloves as I did my bloodwork afterwards and chatted with the nurse-coordinator about whether July would work for starting a new cycle, but while I was still in the clinic I was not really feeling much of anything except, "of course! this obviously was going to happen." Only after I got back in the car to drive the three hours back down the freeway again did I start feeling really sorry for myself.

The doc says that while it is technically possible to aspirate the thing, he would prefer to let it go away of its own volition (he gave me some reasoning for this and I will admit I wasn't really paying attention, but in general I prefer not punching any more holes in my body than absolutely necessary so I'm not arguing). He also says this seems to happen in like 1 out of every 5 suppressive bcp cycles that he sees. I'm supposed to return to them after I have a natural cycle for another check-in, and then he wants me to go on the nuvaring for a few weeks before I start my next attempt because he thinks I might respond better to a more localized hormone dispersal method, and he still thinks it's a good idea to suppress me before my stim cycle.

So anyhow, my brain is currently split into 3 different directions right now:

1) Alright, I guess I just need to take this extra couple of months and keep up the supplements and maybe try to lose 5 lbs because even though my weight is fine, like most folks it probably wouldn't hurt, and otherwise get my ducks in a row;

2) Ugh, it's a sign, this is never going to work;

3) I recently (like, yesterday) had a contact at a nearby university reach out to me to say that there may be a renewable teaching position opening up this next academic year (read: August) and that they are hoping I apply for it because I'd probably have a decent shot. I gave up on the possibility of a future in "real" academia about 2 years ago after my mom's diagnosis because I wasn't willing to move across the country for a job when I wanted to be near my mom. Given that the academic job market is basically like that scene from Terminator 2 where nuclear war happens and there's nothing left but skeletons and murder machines and distant fireballs on the horizon, having someone out of the blue suggest that, hey, you should keep your eye on this university right down the street from you because there's maybe gonna be a job opening there starting in a few months that you'd be qualified for is... nothing short of insane. Anyway, the reason I'm going on and on about this is that if I were to get this hypothetical job, I would be agreeing to teach a full course load starting this fall and going through the spring, which, if I were to get pregnant on a July or August transfer, would potentially make for a very extremely weird and stressful first year of teaching/geriatric pregnancy. Obviously the answer is not to mention to them that I'm thinking about/actively throwing my life savings at trying to get pregnant during the exact same time when they'd need me to be teaching. It's just weird.

[Deleted User] · May 2021

@optimistgardener oh wow. I am... still processing. I believe it when you said you stopped listening at some point or couldn't even hear him. ughh. I'm so sorry this morning went anything less than smoothly. I hope to have something more encouraging to contribute once I have a chance to come back, re-read and digest your post. Meantime, sending you lots of love. <3<3<3

optimistgardener · May 2021

@BusinessWife thank you so much for the support. not at all necessary for you to have anything else to say. i just needed a bit of a rant. thanks

keikilove · May 2021

@optimistgardener Rant warranted! I’m so sorry about the cyst! It’s true that this happens often, but it sucks when it happens to you. I have lots of thoughts, but gonna get my mind organized before responding further. The good thing is, you seem to have lots of options. Hang in there, allow yourself a pity party this weekend if needed. The best steps forward will all become clear with a little time and distance from today’s disappointment. Sending weird internet (((hugs)))!

bows22 · May 2021

@optimistgardener just wanted to send some love to you while you’re processing all of that. Know that we are all here to help you through it, rant as much as you need to ❤️❤️

optimistgardener · May 2021

@keikilove and @bows22 thank you both so much. it's really helpful to be able to share how i'm feeling with people who understand.

acleverusername · May 2021

@optimistgardener gosh girl, I am so sorry. Like others have said, take the time you need to wallow. And while at it, enjoy yourself a nice cold IPA or 2. 🫂

optimistgardener · May 2021

Thanks @acleverusername. And while I'm here, Happy Pascha to you and the others on the board who celebrate!

[Deleted User] · May 2021

Okay, now that I am reading this again, I am super excited for you!!! @optimistgardener What I am hearing is, "I just got tipped off about a crazy unicorn job offer in my field that I never would have seen coming in a million years!" And now since we are pumping the breaks on things treatment wise to let the Cystine Chapel clear the building, (like that? Not as good as Sergio perhaps @acleverusername but maybe it works? lol) you get some downtime to focus on you, your overall well being, your resume, and hopefully application and interview process? Am I reading this correctly? All while not having the all consuming demands of treatment to contend with.

By the time you get the job, prepare the cr-- out of your lessons, get the ball rolling with treatment again and start off the school year... you'll possibly be KU? and be well into said unicorn dream teaching job before it even gets to the point where you might want to disclose anything? By which point they will obviously already LOVE YOU, and be so happy for you! (and really, what can they do, besides help you figure out whatever accommodations you might need to prepare for your leave etc.) Then you would have more or less perfectly timed your mat leave to coincide with summer break, because you're Just That Good, that they will all be ready to welcome you back again with open arms the following year. Did I miss anything?

I was on NuvaRing for a while before giving up on HBC all together. I liked it! I would way prefer that over something like an implant, and it was easier to remember than taking a pill every day. (I also found it annoying for after dark reasons that probably safe to say don't apply in this situation.) So i find that really interesting that he seems to think the localized hormones would not make the cyst blow up like the systemic ones did. Plus, you KNEW you were hating them and I find THAT really interesting too, that maybe on some level your body was telling you it was reacting weirdly to it. :/ I'm sorry. Unfortunately, the thing they don't tell you about IF is that it can feel like one long, drawn out game of trial and error as you and your provider get to learn your body, and how it responds to different things. So, I mean, I guess we all learned something here about optimistgardner's ovaries here. (((hugs))) You'll get through. ETA and you're not doomed. :)

optimistgardener · May 2021

omg @BusinessWife, you've just done an amazing job of turning yesterday's pity party on its head! I was laughing as I read your re-interpretation, because it is such a great way of looking at things.

Thanks so much. You're of course very right about all of this. And indeed, I did wake up this morning feeling better about things. Still a bit frantic because I'm really feeling that "every month counts at your age" feature of ttgp in my late 30s, but much more balanced than yesterday.

Spoiler involves grad school PTSD

I think my immediate instinct with the (still pretty hypothetical) job prospect was a reflexive return to the feelings i'd developed about it back before I left the job market last time... which was this intense frustration that the academic trajectory forces women in grad school into this untenable position where we are expected to put off childbearing for as long as we are grad students (which, for many of us, means waiting until we were/are in our mid-30s), on the usually unrealistic hope that we will then secure stable positions where we can start thinking about building families. I had several (male) mentors in my department explicitly warn me not to get pregnant while I was in grad school because it would ruin any hope of a career. It was only once I had actually faced the reality of the job market and saw the insane pressure female colleagues who had actually found jobs were under that I realized that having a baby under those circumstances was equally if not more crazy than having a baby in grad school. Anyway, getting this hint of a job possibility right as I'm also trying to get an IVF cycle started was a little like, OMG, why am I always forced into counterbalancing my professional and personal aspirations like this? But you're right, it's better to see this not as another forced decision between the two and instead like: hey, maybe I can make both of these things work!

Edit to reply to @businesswife's last point about the IF learning curve: I think you're onto something about how I just knew I didn't like the bcps (I never liked them before, either.. the only ones I could really stand were the mini-pills). The word "cyst" really strikes fear in my heart, because that was the way I lost my left ovary when was in utero. I developed a huge cyst (maybe thanks to a hormonal spike my mom and I shared?) that led to a case of ovarian torsion and loss of blood supply to the ovary, which meant it was just a rotten little thing by the time they did my surgery when I was 3 days old. So: maybe I am learning that my body responds to weird hormonal shifts by trying to make cysts?

keikilove · May 2021

@optimistgardener I hear you 100% on the if/or of job vs. baby. In your situation I agree with @BusinessWife’s reframing. I put off having a baby for a big career promotion and it is one of my great regrets in life. I think the more you can look at your options as a “this AND this” situation instead of a “this OR this” situation, the happier and less pressured you will feel overall. Also, the timing does sound absolutely perfect!!!

Regarding the cyst, you may want to check out Dr. Geoffrey Sher’s blog online. I think he recommends aspirating the cyst almost always, but especially in women who are getting ‘older’. He likes to keep hormonal interventions to a minimum so as not to over-suppress the ovaries. He makes the aspiration sound easy and promotes it because it saves time instead of waiting for the cyst to go away on its own. I hope I’m remembering this correctly from what I read on his blog! Anyway, just wanted to share in case you find it helpful.

FWIW, my body also hates BCP. It makes me feel terrible & and the plan never goes to plan when I’ve used it. I’ve had nothing but bad things happen when my REs have put me on it. I refuse to use it again. There are other options such as straight estradiol pills or progesterone pills, or a combo. Somehow, these have been way better on my system than the combo BCPs (and haven’t caused cysts). Not sure why, if they’re essentially the same ingredients as BCP. You could also ask your RE about Lupron or something else to down-regulate your hormones until the cyst is resolved. Hope this helps & that you’re able to make some decisions about how you’d like to move forward.💗

acleverusername · May 2021

@BusinessWife

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/8v/zggxcjgcmpur.gif

@optimistgardener I think @bumblebee0210 has expressed similar frustrations about struggles that women in academia face.

@BusinessWife has put your context into perspective so eloquently. The only other useful thing that I can say do is to quote Dr. Aimee: "fertility doesn't decline overnight; it declines over time." I totally get the pressure that each month's delay adds, but the added couple of months also give you the opportunity to do those small things that gives you a greater chance of success in IVF (weight loss, supplementation, getting rid of Cystine Chapel, not drinking for a month leading up to IVF, etc.). You've got this girl! And we got you. 🤗

[Deleted User] · May 2021

Glad I could help <3 @optimistgardener Those grad school comments make me to ragey. FWIW, I don't think it's just academia.

I think society as a whole has really shifted that way, but luckily I think there are those of us that are starting to see the problem with that, and can choose to help swing it back the other way. (I mean really, if someone had to take time off during grad school have a baby, and then come back to school and pick up where you left off... isn't that actually way easier than doing that once you've already entered the workforce, go out to have the babies and then having to re-enter?) I will gladly tell any young lady who would listen, IMHO - get good grades, attend the best schools you can, <i><u>do all the extra curriculars</u></i>. Meet a nice young man (not at a bar (I mean assuming we're into that sort of thing obv)), and trust your gut. If a person thinks they are ready to commit young - They should just go for it! Have all the babies, then do whatever you want with the rest of your life. I mean seriously, if you have kids in your 20s (instead of wasting them partying like I did, and trying to figure out the rest of my life!??? lol) then you can be in your late 20s starting the career thing, and still have your whole 30s to lean into whatever direction your career path may lead (without the pressure of a ticking clock.) I don't want to say I have regrets about my life choices.... but. lol I made a lot of not good ones. <laugh / cry> and the kicker is, my job / career path has evolved so many times over that like, who could have predicted??? You're never going to have it all figured out or have it all go according to plan anyway, right? So might as well throw that big wrench in first thing and just get that out of the way. lol But anyway. It is what it is now. I feel your pain, and I do sincerely hope the younger generation will learn from the problems with some of the values we were taught to believe... :/

ETA

<div class=" Spoiler">This topic may have just unleashed my ranty side lol but it's literally social engineering. The other thing that happens when generations are closer together, (of bigger families in particular), is that you have the grandparents' generation around to help with the grandbabies, (not to mention more cousins, aunts and uncles etc.), which makes it feel easier and more affordable for many parents to have kids in the first place, if that meant they could use family care, rather than pay for daycare. Right??? ughh Makes me mad.</div><p>
</p>

acleverusername · May 2021

@BusinessWife this might be an UO for someone who considers themselves Christian, but I think we need to re-write the societal script that it takes a Mr Right to have children. It just stakes sperm.

It’s hard to meet the right person in your 20’s because at that age, many don’t even know who they are. How can they find a complementary partner that way? I remember the first guy I dated... I basically tried everything he was into because I didn’t have a self of who I was. And that experience, and then every other bad relationship choice, helped me grow into the confident person that I am today, and to find my husband. I shudder thinking what would have happened had I married my first bf (who today still lives with his parents, never finished university, and is constantly having to change careers in order to keep a job. But he’s a nice person.)

I recently co-led an in-person (via Zoom) TTC support group for 35+. I was actually the youngest person there; most others were 39+. One of the girls was 43 and still wondering if she should wait until she finds “her person” or just go for single-mom-by-choice. The only advice I could give her, is that if she was okay with having kids that were not genetically hers once she’s found her person, then to go ahead and wait.

So, I’m definitely very outspoken about this and especially to young ppl (if they ask). If I were to go back to my 25 yr old self, I would tell her to freeze her eggs, no matter the expense. And maybe also to work harder to figure out who she is instead going after wrong guys and minimizing the importance of her own needs/desires (fun story: the guy I dated before MH... well we went to couples therapy a few times trying to salvage our relationship. At one point we were given the exercise of listing top 5 things that are important to us in the other and I listed things like 1) making an effort with my family; 2) being active; 3) liking dogs... and he proceeded to tell me - in front of therapist - that those are not “real” desires.)

Anywho, getting off my soap box now...

[Deleted User] · May 2021

@acleverusername Yeah, I mean, to be fair, it's probably not such a UO in the general population at large, when it gets right down to it.

But I think a lot of it comes down to upbringing. And I'm not saying it's you, I think it's generational. I think a lot of our parents raised us in a way that postponed accountability, for lack of a better way to put it. Once upon a time, there was no such term as a "teenager," there was a lot more maturity expected of young men and women at 15, 16, they may be courting; if so, their parents and families and the community all played a big part in supporting healthy socialization.

I do know a good deal more couples now that met and married comparatively younger since getting more involved with Church, and it seems to be working out well for them! And YOUNG GRANDPARENTS with all these grandbabies and lots of energy to care for them! I mean, I feel like they must be doing something right! SIL and BIL were HS sweethearts and still together all this time (and are agnostic / atheist). It does happen! and I guess I just feel it does a disservice to the male half of humanity to denigrate their primary function into just sperm donors. (Present company excluded @optimistgardener lol) In principle, men ought to be providing their own beautiful counterpoint to whatever the woman brings to the table, and I think the danger in that line of thinking is more or less assuming men in general are not capable of stepping up and bringing themselves authentically to the relationship, [ETA or operating under the assumption that it's more the exception, than the rule, then] it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, kwim?

acleverusername · May 2021

@BusinessWife maybe ours is the "pendulum swinging to the other side" generation; I certainly hope that's the case. But, I certainly know way more ppl my age who were practicing (Jewish and Christian) and who got married very young only to divorce shortly thereafter and then leave the Church. And also, given that we're now being forced to work late into sixties / seventies because of a broken social security system, the idea that grandparents can help with childrearing is a bit foreign to me. And also, older retired people who are financially well off, are much more interested in living their life a bit now that they're done working their butts off. But once again, this is a values thing. And in individualist societies like US, Canada, Australia, UK, that's the prevalent sentiment. In more collectivist societies (i.e. Latin, Portuguese, French, etc.) what you're describing is much more likely to happen.

I'm just angry and jaded when it comes to this stuff. *** TW broken familial relationship; sister's LC ***

My parents got married very young and were done childbearing by 22; but their isn't a relationship I ever wanted to emulate (they are toxically codependent). When my sister was 30, they started to play the "when are you gonna make us grandparents?" game with my sister; so she had 2 kids expecting that my parents were gonna be those grandparents who helped with childrearing and doted on their grandchildren from the beginning. She was sorely disappointed. My parents used their full time jobs, the fact that they had a household to take care of and my grandmother to support, to essentially make it such that they only saw their grandkids when my sister went to see them - a 3 hour drive away. And her H's parents are older and go on 3-4 major trips a years (gone for 2-3 weeks). And they're now starting to have health issues. So here too, the idea that grandparents can help with childrearing is wishful idealistic thinking. (Although they were of great help earlier on in my nibblings' life.)

It sounds like things are different for you though, and I'm happy for that.

acleverusername · May 2021

I just watched this really great video of Dr. Aimee interviewing Dr. Max Ezzati who invented the IVF Pyramid. He breaks it down so well. Even if you know everything about IVF, it's a worthwhile watch. At the end of the video, they go through an exercise of how many life births at age 25, 35, 45 with a pre-stim AFC of 10. @bumblebee0210 based on that video, you getting 2 fertilized embryos is "textbook." Video in spoiler:

keikilove · May 2021

Ok, jumping in with my two pennies, which aren’t worth much these days.😄

@BusinessWife I think your idea is the ideal, in a perfect world that may or may not exist. Like @acleverusername, I’ve had lots of friends who married in their young 20s (Christian & agnostic) who were divorced soon after, with one or two kids in tow and no way to pay for them. They either didn’t finish college in favor of marriage so had no career prospects to speak of, or found that their early-career salaries couldn’t begin to cover the astronomical costs of childcare, feeding & clothing children, housing, etc. Their own parents (the grandparents they thought would be so helpful) were young-to-mid 40s, most going through divorces themselves after starting so young. Those friends of mine all wish they’d waited by starting their careers first, having kids second.

On the flip, I have even more friends (female & male) who powered out to climb in their careers and are now seeking single-parenthood (no judgment!) or praying that Ms.Right/Mr. Right comes along just in the nick of time before they run out of eggs. My male friends were not even ready to think about settling down until mid-30s at the absolute earliest.

Personally, I tell all the young people I know that science proves that their brains aren’t even fully developed until they’re about 25yo. Their 20s are for adventures, making mistakes, dating all kinds of people, working crappy & varied jobs until you find what you want to stick to. Statistically, people who marry in their younger 20s don’t stay married. They haven’t even had a chance to learn what they want out of life or who they are, let alone those major responsibilities of marriage and caring for other human beings. There’s a study that has stuck with me since forever: people who get married at age 28 or later have a 75% chance of staying married, presumably because they’ve lived a little and have a sense of realistic expectations. (I was crazy in love with my college sweetheart for years & years & would’ve married his dysfunctional a** in a heartbeat. That would’ve been a disastrous life for sure!)

I definitely tell my younger sisters and their friends in their young 30s to freeze their eggs NOW. In this day & age there’s just no telling when they will finally connect with The One. I think having eggs frozen and knowing that sperm donation is an option (no matter how distant a choice) helps greatly ease the pressure that women feel in today’s high-stress work-driven society. If anything, I hope Covid has helped us all see how important connections are, how much we need to socialize with others, and how life really isn’t all about work. Maybe the pendulum will finally start to shift away from the extremes we’ve seen over the last few decades.

optimistgardener · May 2021

@acleverusername @BusinessWife @keikilove

I have so many thoughts about all these things but I'm not going to be able to forge it into the kind of thoughtful posts you have all composed this evening before the clock runs out and the thread starts anew on Monday. So instead, here's a bit of a mashup:

With respect to having kids young, I have a friend who married a terrible person in her late teens, had kids, and then struggled through an awful divorce, poverty, and single parenthood with(out) her deadbeat ex. But she's also somehow managed to be an awesome mom and she is now flourishing as their kids get ready to graduate from high school and her career is also finally beginning to come together as she arrives at the cusp of 40. I also know folks who waited and somehow managed to pursue their professional goals, meet the partner of their dreams, and then magically get pregnant in their late 30s without really trying. I guess what I mean is, you can do things "wrong" and it still somehow works out. You can do things "right" and the universe smiles benevolently upon you and grants all your wishes. And sometimes, through no obvious fault of your own, things just don't work out how you'd imagined they might.

Like @acleverusername, I wish someone would have told me to freeze my eggs when I was 25. But if you'd told me when I was 25 that, more than a decade later, none of my relationships would have ended up being "Mr. Right," and that my long-held bold plan to just go parenthood alone if I somehow hit 35 and was still single wouldn't be as simple as I imagined it to be, I wouldn't have believed you. After all, at 25 I was just coming out the other side of a 5-year-long relationship with my undergraduate sweetheart, and in that moment it seemed like good relationships were natural things that "just happened" to everyone (undergrad sweetheart is still a sweet man, but he lives in Scotland [which is where I did my undergraduate degree] and I always knew I wanted to return to the United States eventually... and also undergrad sweetheart, maybe a little like @acleverusername's first bf, still lives with his parents and hates his job, and would ultimately not have been the right long-term partner for me). The people I've dated since then have been all of them interesting and good people, some of them might have wanted to settle down with me, others walked away from me when I might have made a go of things with them, but ultimately none of them worked. There have been a lot of times in the past couple of years that I've been pretty heartbroken about finding myself single at this stage of my life, trying to convince myself I'm brave enough to just do this on my own. I've also, on and off (but during covid not really at all), tried to continue dating... but let me just say there is nothing remotely easy about trying to date but also being like, "listen, you need to be cool with the fact that I'm actively trying to get myself knocked up with some stranger's frozen sperm, because I don't have time right now to stop the clock and try to figure out whether you're Mr. Right." So in a way deciding to do this on my own has meant having to be at least temporarily at peace with my singleness. I don't know what I'm trying to say exactly by laying out my romantic history like this, except that I'm not sure whether trying to make it work with one of the Early Boyfriends would have been feasible, nor am I sure that 25-year-old me would have seen the merit of freezing my eggs. I think I just had to struggle through the whole thing to find myself where I've arrived. But what I would have said to younger grad school me (and what I began saying to all the young female grad students after I became a jaded old grad student), is under no circumstances should you listen to the old tenured dudes when they tell you what you can and can't do with your body, and don't let your anxieties about whether you're smart enough or deserve to be in this program stop you from also pursuing other things in your life, like dating and extra-curriculars where you might meet people, and building up a dimensional non-academic life that makes you happy outside of your research.

I want to conclude by saying it's really cool that we can disagree or at least come at this important stuff about what "ideal" looks like in some fundamentally different ways, but still support one another so well on this board.

Edit: throwing in a couple of potentially controversial things at the end here because it seems most honest to do so. Full disclosure is that i'm agnostic/leaning atheist, but my research interests have taught me a lot more respect for the value of religion than I once had. Sitting in churches, temples, mosques and sufi shrines pretty much always brings me to tears, which is probably a sign that I'm more agnostic than atheist.

Separately, my mom is queer and my best friend/brother-from-another-mother is also queer. although I grew up with my mom and dad (their divorce didn't happen till I was in my teens), and my dad is an important part of my life and upbringing, I would argue vehemently for the value of non-traditional partnerships and parenting models, and the flexibility of kids to thrive regardless of whether they have a mom and a dad both in the house. There are other places to find male or female role models.

[Deleted User] · May 2021

@acleverusername Yeah, I don't blame you for feeling the way that you do, and believe me, we don't have that perfect vision either, personally. Not by a long shot. I guess I still just dare to dream!

@keikilove Precisely - in a perfect world, which we don't have, but since we live in the world that we do, I don't think that means we just throw out ideals altogether. There is something for having a beacon to be striving after, imho.

@optimistgardener <3<3<3

[Deleted User] · May 2021

I have to run, but a thought that just dawned on me too, as I'm milling over everyone's comments in my mind, is that the cultures @acleverusername mentioned as where it could work better (Latin, Portuguese, French, and I'm sure there are others), are actually historically Catholic, too, and still have a big catholic component to their culture. In some cases, they are also experiencing a revival of traditional Catholicism today as well! So anyway, I just found that interesting. vs. the "individualist" cultures you named.

@optimistgardener I will PM you later, but probably not till very much later lol as the bump on my phone has been buggy. <3 I also love, Love, LOVE that we can have these kind of conversations and all share differing viewpoints, and at the end of the day still be friends. :)

chichiphin · May 2021

all I want to say as a major lurker is that academia once you're on board - i.e. not a grad student - i think is way more "forgiving" when you're pregnant and then have a child @optimistgardener. Honestly, high ed/academia might be one of the most forgiving career fields to "have both", and usually the leave policies are awesome. Not to mention, if they're tied to an academic medical center, your health care coverage could include some steep IVF discounts. I am not a prof, but have spent 5 years in academia, so that is my 2 cents

optimistgardener · May 2021

@chichiphin I suppose this is getting pretty far afield for an IF thread, but I'll bite.

I know that every institution is different and even different departments within an institution can vary a lot (so much depends on having supportive colleagues/maybe the sciences are better in some ways). But I would respectfully disagree regarding "having both" in academia. For starters, the entire institutional calendar of training vs "arriving" is unfriendly. In the humanities, at least, most people don't arrive at a "real" job until they're mid-30s, and often not until they're nearly 40. Considering that it is a system that doesn't wind up placing many, if not the majority, of its trainees, it's inhumane to have a system where grad students are generally expected to postpone fertility during that time. Even after grad school, many of my friends who got jobs went into temporary 1- or 2-year positions (often for laughably small salaries) and expect to bounce around the country like that for a few years before they get something permanent. One has to have a saint of a partner (if you're partnered) to put up with that, and that's no way to start a family. Once a person does get a permanent position, the tenure clock is breathing down your neck. The university may or may not have family-friendly policies for fertility treatments, childcare, leave, etc., "pausing" the tenure clock, etc., but in practice, it can feel impossible to arrive at an institution and immediately get pregnant/require leave. Your new colleagues may resent having to cover courses/make temporary hires/take on administrative responsibilities during that time, you may worry (sometimes rightly) that it will look bad for your tenure review later when you're short on publications.

Finally, during one of my years on the market before I decided to leave, I was shortlisted for a position at one of the South's flagship universities. Because I didn't particularly want the position, I asked what kind of family support policies they had. I was told, in essence: new parents get 1 semester of leave. also there's been funding set aside for a childcare center for a few years now but the university never prioritizes building it. until that gets built, it's been our experience that family members and spouses do a great job of stepping in to provide support. that's not much help for a single woman moving across the country.

I speak as someone who absolutely loved the work I did. I was pretty good at it. I would have (and for a while did) sacrifice a lot to have been able to remain in the system. A truly family-friendly academia needs to normalize and support (with time and with money) women having children at whatever stage of their career as a grad student or beyond.

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