Rant: Trying not to be a B

asws1208 · August 2014

Rumbera28 said:

paigeed Approximately much do you think that you're paying toward these people who are allegedly 'abusing the system'? Just asking for a general ballpark figure.

It doesn't matter if it is $1 that goes towards people abusing the system! Abuse is abuse and I don't want one cent of my money going towards it!

paigeed · August 2014

@asws1208‌ thank you for making me feel like I'm not the only one feeling this way.

Unknown · August 2014

This content has been removed.

paigeed · August 2014

Maybe those of you who think u may need it could pay in and pull out of it if u need in the future. Those of us who don't want to pay in for it shouldn't have to and then we wouldn't be allowed to apply for it later on.

Not on all taxes but the welfare tax.

DebateThis · August 2014

Rumbera28 said:

paigeed Approximately much do you think that you're paying toward these people who are allegedly 'abusing the system'? Just asking for a general ballpark figure.

She claims to have paid $7k in taxes. Using the White House calculator on where your taxes go, $272.30 went to food and nutrition assistance. The widely accepted estimate is that 1.3% of SNAP (food stamp) cases are true fraud, so she's spent all of this time bitching about $3.54.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, $160 billion in farm subsidies are a good thing 'cuz milk is going to be $17 a gallon, ersumsuch shit.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

DebateThis · August 2014

paigeed said:

Maybe those of you who think u may need it could pay in and pull out of it if u need in the future. Those of us who don't want to pay in for it shouldn't have to and then we wouldn't be allowed to apply for it later on. Not on all taxes but the welfare tax.

How the FUCK are you a teacher?

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution authorizes Congress to levy taxes.

2. Food stamp cuts will affect your poor, rural areas more than cities: https://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/11/20/246396245/food-stamp-cuts-leave-rural-areas-and-their-grocers-reeling

3. You live in a representative republic and as a citizen of such, you do not get to decide arbitrarily which programs you want to pay for and which you don't. Likewise, those citizens who need food stamps are entitled to them (see how that works?) by virtue of their citizenship.

4. Do we all really need to give you more of a civics lesson than this?

LucilleAustero · August 2014

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.

If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?

We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements?

Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is.

sleepy33 · August 2014

You folks who are so convinced that fraud is such an issue because of the individuals you know who are abusing the system need to realize that, for every person you know who receives assistance, there are many more you come in contact with in daily life that you would have absolutely no idea are receiving assistance. My husband and I own a lovely older home in a great neighborhood. We have two cars. We both work (I have a FT job and my H works part time nights and watches our infant son during the day). But I work for a very small non-profit with lousy benefits, and my H of course receives no benefits due to PT status. To add my son to my insurance policy was going to cost me $800 a month OOP. So my son receives medical benefits from the state through CHIP. You will probably never know who your friends or acquaintances are that are using assistance 'the right way'.

asws1208 · August 2014

Rumbera28 said:

DebateThis said:

Rumbera28 said:

paigeed Approximately much do you think that you're paying toward these people who are allegedly 'abusing the system'? Just asking for a general ballpark figure.

She claims to have paid $7k in taxes. Using the White House calculator on where your taxes go, $272.30 went to food and nutrition assistance. The widely accepted estimate is that 1.3% of SNAP (food stamp) cases are true fraud, so she's spent all of this time bitching about $3.54.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, $160 billion in farm subsidies are a good thing 'cuz milk is going to be $17 a gallon, ersumsuch shit.

Yep... that's what I was getting at. No mention of the billions that are diverted and lining the pockets of corporate henchmen. Nor the banking industry that pillaged the poor in the biggest mortgage heist in history, got raises from our tax dollars for their new yacht during the bailout, and never spent a moment in prison for it.

Let's burn Sally in effigy for daring to have a kid while poor and grabbing an extra bowl of gruel.

No one ever said that the rest of the world was right and only the welfare system is wrong. We could go on for days about other areas that are corrupt and have abuse too but that is not what any of this is about.

Meery82 · August 2014

GhostMonkey said:

paigeed said:

According to https://taxfoundation.org/article/2014-tax-brackets I owe 15% and 15% of 44000 is 6600. Those who fuck the system don't deserve even one cent of that.

https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/federal-income-tax-calculator

You aren't taking into consideration the standard deduction or personal exemptions. And with a ranch you should be able to zero that out unless your accountant sucks a bag of dicks, which I can already tell they do. A good accountant would have been all over you in November/December to make a couple purchases to offset that tax liability and make them be depreciable assets so they spread over multiple years.

Oh. Yeah. Farm and Ranch tax management was my focus for my 1st undergrad degree and I grew up on a farm and helped my mom prep our taxes for many years so they didn't get bit in the ass. And your taxes are due in late February/early March, not April. Care to fail again?

@paigeed This was going to be my point. If your husband is self employed, he should be able to write off several work-related expenses to save you from paying so much. My husband owns his own business and writes off multiple things that save us money. When tax time came around, he paid almost nothing out of pocket and we got almost $5000 for our return.

asws1208 · August 2014

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

DebateThis · August 2014

asws1208 said:

Rumbera28 said:

DebateThis said:

Rumbera28 said:

paigeed Approximately much do you think that you're paying toward these people who are allegedly 'abusing the system'? Just asking for a general ballpark figure.

She claims to have paid $7k in taxes. Using the White House calculator on where your taxes go, $272.30 went to food and nutrition assistance. The widely accepted estimate is that 1.3% of SNAP (food stamp) cases are true fraud, so she's spent all of this time bitching about $3.54.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, $160 billion in farm subsidies are a good thing 'cuz milk is going to be $17 a gallon, ersumsuch shit.

Yep... that's what I was getting at. No mention of the billions that are diverted and lining the pockets of corporate henchmen. Nor the banking industry that pillaged the poor in the biggest mortgage heist in history, got raises from our tax dollars for their new yacht during the bailout, and never spent a moment in prison for it.

Let's burn Sally in effigy for daring to have a kid while poor and grabbing an extra bowl of gruel.

No one ever said that the rest of the world was right and only the welfare system is wrong. We could go on for days about other areas that are corrupt and have abuse too but that is not what any of this is about.

Yeah, it's about you and several others making ignorant sweeping assertions based on an antiquated Reagan-era notion of a Welfare Queen stealing all your hard earned tax monies. You want to talk about fraud? Talk about all the members of the GOP who keep preaching that racist vitriol to get people to vote for them. Talk about defrauding US citizens.

DebateThis · August 2014

asws1208 said:

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

Oh, so you don't understand the Constitution or practical implication of the law or actual fraud any better than our wise and learned teacher.

1. You CANNOT drug test entitlement recipients. It's against the law and against those citizens' Constitutional rights. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/03/food-stamps-drug-test_n_5440742.html Georgia, Florida, Michigan, Missouri and Utah + several other states have tried this and EVERY SINGLE LAW has been shot down. Repeat after me: The government may not condition the receipt of a benefit upon the violation of a constitutional right. (Thank you, Pixy)

From a practical perspective it's also far more expensive than it's worth to drug test people when only roughly 1-2% of people are using drugs on any social assistance program. When Missouri tried this, the entire state program caught 20 people. Twenty. Out of 32,000 applicants, and at a price of $500,000. The state of Florida lost $52k in less than six months on a drug testing program too. Please tell me, oh fiscal genius, how that is a good thing.

2. If you'd done any reading at all, you would realize that very few people actually sell their food stamps. https://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/01/08/3136631/lepage-welfare/ Why? Because people need to eat. Shocker, I know.

asws1208 · August 2014

Rumbera28 said:

asws1208 said:

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

The point is, you reserve your contempt for people on welfare, for abuses that you assume are "sweeping"... yet when presented with cold, hard, facts about the outrageous ratio of expenses incurred by fraud from the poor and fraud from the rich -- you still reserve your scorn for the poor.

Admit it. This is not about money. This is about preserving your sense of superiority.

Again, I don't care if it is $1 of my money going to abuse of the welfare system - I don't want it happening. I don't want it going anywhere that it will be abused. In any area. For any reason. This conversation and this post was about welfare which is why my points were about the welfare system. Why would I have brought up fraud in other areas when that is not what the post was about to begin with. And no, it is not about money. It is not about how much of my paycheck goes to the welfare system. It is about the system itself and the fact that people feel entitled to help that they SOMETIMES do not deserve. I know it is not the majority of the cases. I know that. I hear you. But where I live and the people I know it happens A LOT. I am in a southern conservative part of the country so I am sure I have been raised very differently that someone who is not from here but the way I was raised and the SHIT I see going on here is what gives me my opinions. Which is what they are... my opinions. Just like all of yours. I never said it was 100% correct or the only way things were or the way all of you should think. But it is how I see it and the way that I feel. So why all of you have JUMPED ON the few of us who have different view points is ridiculous.

sleepy33 · August 2014

asws1208 said:

Again, I don't care if it is $1 of my money going to abuse of the welfare system - I don't want it happening. I don't want it going anywhere that it will be abused. In any area. For any reason. This conversation and this post was about welfare which is why my points were about the welfare system. Why would I have brought up fraud in other areas when that is not what the post was about to begin with. And no, it is not about money. It is not about how much of my paycheck goes to the welfare system. It is about the system itself and the fact that people feel entitled to help that they SOMETIMES do not deserve. I know it is not the majority of the cases. I know that. I hear you. But where I live and the people I know it happens A LOT. I am in a southern conservative part of the country so I am sure I have been raised very differently that someone who is not from here but the way I was raised and the SHIT I see going on here is what gives me my opinions. Which is what they are... my opinions. Just like all of yours. I never said it was 100% correct or the only way things were or the way all of you should think. But it is how I see it and the way that I feel. So why all of you have JUMPED ON the few of us who have different view points is ridiculous.

asws1208 · August 2014

So... you would prefer to have your taxes hiked much higher toward 'big government' to check for those outliers who get more than you believe they should. Because it's not about the money. And since it's not about the money, would you also support a hike in taxes to add more food on the plates of those who are legitimately hungry?

Rumbera28 If it meant no more corruption - sure! I don't want people to starve contrary to popular belief on this thread.

asws1208 · August 2014

meeshkaroni said:

I still want to know how you would prevent the kids from suffering when their parents are abusing the system? I asked this on page 7 or 8. And this was ignored. I mean since not even $4 of your money goes to that abuse but you don't even want a dollar of it going to them. And how nice that you can afford to pay even more in taxes to prevent the very, ridiculously small amount of abuse that happens, whereas those on assistance wouldn't be able to handle that. Nor those who really and truly love paycheck to paycheck.

I don't know how I would do it if I had a genius plan I would let someone important know not a bunch of ass holes who would just disagree anyways on the internet.. I am BLOWN AWAY by the rudeness and snarky ass attitude of 97% of the people on here.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

WashingtonQueen · August 2014

asws1208 said:

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

I'm really fucking curious what restrictions you suggest for what people can buy with food stamps.

asws1208 · August 2014

WashingtonQueen said:

asws1208 said:

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

I'm really fucking curious what restrictions you suggest for what people can buy with food stamps.

While I would love to give my opinions on this I am sure it would result in an even bigger shit storm so I will keep those opinions to myself because obviously the only ones that can be expressed here are ones that are not in line with my way of thinking.

WashingtonQueen · August 2014

asws1208 said:

WashingtonQueen said:

asws1208 said:

LucilleAustero said:

@asws1208‌, I asked you this earlier and you conveniently did not answer.
If people, whose sole job is to try to fix the system, cannot get the estimated fraud percentage lower than 2-5%, how do you propose to do it?
We live in a world where there is always going to be a small percentage of people that will take advantage. Do you punish the overwhelming majority for the crimes of a few? That is not a yes or no answer. I never said there should be no welfare system. I said it needs a major overhaul. Do you add more agents to monitor the situation? Without a doubt. Do you drug test every welfare recipient? Hell. Fucking. Yes. Do you do home visits to make sure that people are not purchsing anything remotely enjoyable with their entitlements? I don't know about home visits, but how about much more strict rules on what is allowed to be purchased with food stamps? More precautions so food stamps cannot be sold to another person, etc.
We should be more concerned with CEOs moving corporations abroad, paying workers 30 cents/ hour, and reaping negative tazes because of antiquated tax loopholes. It is not the poor bleeding this country dry, it is the top 1% that is. No one ever said that this was the only area of corruption. Anything that you can think of has already been investigated and rejected by people that do this for a living. Why? Because it costs significantly more to hire a worker, give them a salary, benefits, paid time off, retirement, etc, than will ever be saved by finding enough evidence to take away someone's entitlements if they should not qualify for them.

I'm really fucking curious what restrictions you suggest for what people can buy with food stamps.

While I would love to give my opinions on this I am sure it would result in an even bigger shit storm so I will keep those opinions to myself because obviously the only ones that can be expressed here are ones that are not in line with my way of thinking.

Please answer the question.

asws1208 · August 2014

@washingtonqueen I'll just leave it at necessities only.

WashingtonQueen · August 2014

@asws1208 Do you consider a can of ravioli a necessity?

asws1208 · August 2014

WashingtonQueen said:

@asws1208 Do you consider a can of ravioli a necessity?

I am not going to create a grocery list of my OPINION of what is and isn't. But for example zebra cakes, cheetos, and soda would not be on the list.

asws1208 · August 2014

@MrsMuq it is a little debbie cake

Unknown · August 2014

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WashingtonQueen · August 2014

asws1208 said:

WashingtonQueen said:

@asws1208 Do you consider a can of ravioli a necessity?

I am not going to create a grocery list of my OPINION of what is and isn't. But for example zebra cakes, cheetos, and soda would not be on the list.

Let me explain something to you. Junk food is a hell of a lot cheaper than healthy food. For example, I can buy a can of ravioli for $0.74 at Walmart. To feed a family of 6 dinner for the night would cost about $4.44. The pot roast I made the other night with completely clean ingredients cost me somewhere around $20 and it will most likely make it through 2 nights. $20 of healthy dinner lasts 2 nights and $20 of junk food lasts about 4-5 nights. That's a big difference for a poor, starving family. The low cost of junk food is one of the big contributing factors of obesity in the country, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

Meery82 · August 2014

Not gonna lie; I just dug a can of ravioli out of the pantry and am heating it up right now. This is @WashingtonQueen‌ 's fault.

asws1208 · August 2014

@washingtonqueen you asked me to answer the question. After I said there was no need because I knew you would not agree with my opinion. So why even ask the question when you know you are not going to agree. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. I would rather a poor starving family have something that costs a little more and is substantial and healthy than junk food.

WashingtonQueen · August 2014

asws1208 said:

@washingtonqueen you asked me to answer the question. After I said there was no need because I knew you would not agree with my opinion. So why even ask the question when you know you are not going to agree. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. I would rather a poor starving family have something that costs a little more and is substantial and healthy than junk food.

OMG! I just can't with you. THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT!!!! ~X( And you want to take away money, not give it. Fucking Jesus.

Unknown · August 2014

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Unknown · August 2014

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asws1208 · August 2014

Maybe we could solve all of this by putting all the poor people on an island and letting them fend for themselves. That is what I really want to happen. Because all poor people are bad people and I don't think there are any exceptions to any rule in the whole wide universe.

Meery82 · August 2014

asws1208 said:

Maybe we could solve all of this by putting all the poor people on an island and letting them fend for themselves. That is what I really want to happen. Because all poor people are bad people and I don't think there are any exceptions to any rule in the whole wide universe.

Honey, I think it's time to stop posting.

WashingtonQueen · August 2014

asws1208 said:

Maybe we could solve all of this by putting all the poor people on an island and letting them fend for themselves. That is what I really want to happen. Because all poor people are bad people and I don't think there are any exceptions to any rule in the whole wide universe.

I'm ready to ban you.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

pashedmotatoes · August 2014

All the stupid on this thread..... I just can't.

Also is it just me, or is are the trolls only arguing one at a time? Is it odd that as soon as asws came back paigee stopped posting?

asws1208 · August 2014

Why is it considered trolling because someone disagrees with you? And no it is not serious but I might as well say ridiculous bullshit because everything I have said has been treated that way.

DebateThis · August 2014

asws1208 said:

@washingtonqueen you asked me to answer the question. After I said there was no need because I knew you would not agree with my opinion. So why even ask the question when you know you are not going to agree. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. I would rather a poor starving family have something that costs a little more and is substantial and healthy than junk food.

Oh. So how is that going to work when you want to cut funding to WIC/TANF/SNAP? Healthy and substantial foods cost more (way more).

I really wish you would stop and think about what you're saying --not just as nebulous concepts, but the actual implications of the policies you're encouraging. You clearly have not done so in the past.

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