UO Thursday

olivemomma

I didn’t see this started yet. We are some hormonal ladies here, let’s see what everyone has...

sourlemon

People get too offended too easily these days. 

Also, complaining about being offended on Facebook means nothing except that you are complaining. If you're truly offended and passionate about something, go make a difference. Don't just sit and complain. (Universal you, not specific you)

thirdtimesacharm2019

I think the adult rompers are so ugly. I think the cut-off for a one piece outfit with legs should be five years old. And how do you pee? Is it like wearing a bathing suit all the time?

P.S. it took me until last year to get on board with skinny jeans and I despised leggings as pants until I became pregnant this time

olivemomma

I’ve got to say something about these bills being passed in several states on abortion, and im hoping amongst pregnant ladies these actually aren’t unpopular opinions. I’m pro choice but in general I definitely understand the pro life argument, I’m not a monster and don’t think restrictions at a certain point are unreasonable. However, to give the state the right to criminally investigate and potentially prosecute women who have had a miscarriage makes my blood boil - I know very few women who have never experienced one, myself included, and where do you eventually draw the line if this is allowed? And to pass laws that offer no protection to women, but specifically to young girls who are barely of child bearing age, absolutely no recourse in cases of rape or incest to have some control of their body when so much control has already been taken from them is amongst the most inhumane actions I can think of. How can we speak of protecting possible children by outright failing to protect existing children?? I’m starting to seriously feel we are living in an episode of the Handmaids Tale. I’m scared for women right now.

sourlemon

@thirdtimesacharm2019 I never wore leggings and was totally against them as pants until about 5 weeks ago when I bought my first pair of maternity leggings. I still don't wear them in public, but I get it. They are comfy. 

I still can't get behind skinny jeans...my calves are too big to fit! 

sourlemon

This will probably be really unpopular but relevant right now regarding the abortion stuff. Not so much of an opinion, but a question because I'm not sure of what my opinion even is...but one of my friends who has 5 boys asked this question and it got me thinking. And im going to scope this ONLY to first trimester abortions not resulting from rape/incest and women over 18.

Where do men's rights end regarding reproduction? Isn't the baby just as much theirs as it is the woman's? If there's a pregnancy and the woman wants an abortion, what right should the father of the child have to ensure the pregnancy continues? 

Clearly I get the woman carries the baby, has all the lovely crap that pregnancy brings, plus birth and all the stuff after...but isn't leaving all the power of choice to the woman taking away the power of choice of the father? 

MamaK225

Very similar @olivemomma. Personally, it is a choice I pray I never have to make, but I certainly do not know ANYTHING about ANYONE's life outside of mine and I should not have an ounce of say in that (i.e. pro-choice).

It is abhorrent that this law allows people who have ZERO repercussions from removing this choice from another person that either has no control* or want or ability** to continue their pregnancy; effectively, taking away their bodily autonomy and either endangering their or their child's lives*** for the remainder of their lives.

It is absolutely terrifying to be a woman now (as if it wasn't already slightly scary to begin with).

*in the event of miscarriage or a medically-required termination in order to save the life of the mother
**their reasons are their own
***in many states, the rapist has equal parenting rights as the victim - INCLUDING REQUIRED VISITATION RIGHTS

cato99

@sourlemon obviously the prospect of a disagreement like that which would lead to the termination of a pregnancy really wanted by the father could be deeply heartbreaking, but for me the answer is unambiguously that the father should not have rights over forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy like an incubator just because he wants the child. I'm guessing that would be a hard stop for that relationship and hopefully that man can find offspring elsewhere, but the absolute body horror of continuing an unwanted pregnancy and continuing to interact with a man who would override your bodily autonomy like that would be deeply harmful to the pregnant person.

(And more broadly, realistically when composing those what-if scenarios, the implication tends to be that the woman randomly changed her mind or is flaky or is somehow being cruel to the man, when frequently a pattern in that kind of dynamic is an abusive or power differential situation, or larger factors like poor access to birth control or information, which historically tends to disenfranchise women more so than men to begin with. So taking into account material conditions, it's not like both parties are starting off on equal footing necessarily. The situation of "loving relationship makes a baby and then the flaky woman changes her mind" is a bit more out there--not that I'm saying that it doesn't happen or that it's what your friend or you are positing, but just that these kinds of abstract exercises can be a little iffy.) (It's all moot anyway because hey women's bodily autonomy is getting chipped away at, so that dude has plenty of institutional backing to either keep the pregnancy or punish the woman for the abortion.)

sourlemon

@cato99 I agree what ifs are challenging. Her boys are all under 10 years old so her question wasn't based on a current situation, definitely a what if situation in the future. 

cato99

@sourlemon oh for sure! As a future boy-mom I'm like omg I hope he learns all the birth control lessons I'm going to force his poor embarrassed soul through!

olivemomma

@sourlemon I actually think that’s a completely legit question, but one that probably has no easy answer. I guess for the same reason I don’t believe a man should ever be able to force the termination of a pregnancy I don’t think he should have the right to force it to continue either. I believe it ultimately has to be the autonomous decision of the woman. Although, if he is aware of the pregnancy to begin with I would imagine the woman does care about his opinions and would weigh them in her decision.
But Imagine if we suddenly gave 1 man the power to tell a women she has to continue a pregnancy - does it matter if they are married, in a relationship, a one night stand? Does it matter if he’s 40 and his girlfriend is 18? Does it matter if he has gotten a handful of women pregnant and wants them all to have the baby? Will he take full responsibility to raise and provide for the child with zero help from the woman once the baby is born? Even excluding cases of rape and incest and applying this to those over 18 I think we would ultimately find ourselves back in this very precarious state we are in now which is who has control over the woman’s body and the right to make this decision on her behalf. It sounds aweful because in my utopian world a man who wants a baby that is his should have every right for it to be born, but I think it’s a potential wormhole to designate that right to them. I would not even want my husband to have this power over me knowing that every baby conceived is wanted. He just shouldn’t have that kind of control. Imagine if a woman could force her partner to have a vistectomy- does she have that right because she doesn’t want a baby to make medical decisions on his behalf? I can imagine the laughing that would take place in every male dominated court of our country if such a bill was proposed. 

MamaK225

Yes, yes, yes @olivemomma.

That disclaimer is absolutely perfect @cato99.

I saw a meme the other day and it floored me because I had never thought of it that way, but seeing it pointed out it in those words hit me deeeeeeep: "when people say termination is only ok in the instances of rape or incest, they're telling women that they only get bodily autonomy if they've already been punished sufficiently." Oooof.

olivemomma

@MamaK225 wow that’s actually a really powerful statement and I’ve never thought of it in those terms.

also, as a mom of both a girl and soon to be 2 boys I am far more fearful for my daughter during this current political climate. Well a mother of 5 boys may be worried about their paternity rights imagine the fear a mother of 5 young daughters has right now...

MamaK225

With girl #2 coming (and my sister has 2 girls, my brother has 1 girl) ... I'm just ... terrified. But at least DH and I are on the same page when it comes to all of those conversations. And plan to tackle them together.

goldfishcraker

I read a post on Reddit the other week, about a woman who got pregnant young (I think 16/17) and decided to have an abortion. The father wanted to keep and raise the baby. So he got her religious parents involved, and together they forced her to carry to term and deliver. The father promised he would raise the child alone and she would have no responsibility. 
She never saw or met the baby. 
Now, 8ish years later, the father and grandparents and shaming and pushing her to be involved with this child. That she never wanted in the first place. And that they promised she wouldn't have to be involved with. She has been diagnosed with PTSD from the difficult pregnancy and delivery, as well as depression and anxiety. She said her life is a mess, and had only just started learning to cope. But now with everyone ganging up on her, she's not sleeping or eating again, panic attacks all the time, and flash backs.

Anyway, I also have thought about how unfair it is that the father has no say...
If she wants to keep it, but he doesn't, she keeps it.
If she wants to terminate but he wants to keep it, she terminates.
Seems unfair.

But really, pregnancy is so traumatic and brutal on your body, that you can't force a woman against her will. Plus, what's to stop her from doing all the dangerous things in protest? (Drinking, smoking, drugs...) It takes a lot of effort to grow a human. And a woman who is resentful has a lot of ways to "punish" the people forcing it, through harming the fetus.

ETA: reading all this garbage going on in the states lately, really is like watching the country turn into Gillead...

flagchic

@MamaK225 Ahhhhh that point is deep.

Bodily autonomy should be #1. Think of it this way: if my sister had a very rare blood type, and only I am match to donate the blood to save her life, there is absolutely no law that says that I can be forced to donate blood. Even if it's a relatively painless procedure, even if it was to save her life. I would be absolutely under no legal obligation to do so. Now, in this scenario, would that be kind of a jerk thing to do? Absolutely. However, that is the point of bodily autonomy. Nobody can dictate how you use your organs or body, whether you're alive or dead. This is why you have to give permission to be an organ donor- you still have 100% say in how your dead body is used, even after you pass. How can these legislators give dead people more bodily autonomy than an alive woman? 

goldfishcraker

My UO for the week, is that people who work hard, or have a brilliant useful idea that makes them lots of money (and obtain their money fairly/legally), don't owe the rest of us anything.
Just becuase they are a billionaire, doesn't mean they are obligated to share their wealth.
Yes, I feel they should choose to do some good with some of their money.
But it's THEIR money. They pay taxes. They get to choose what to do with the rest.

(This came up again yesterday because someone posted on FB that Jeff Bezos' fortune should be made public domain and belong to all Citizens of the USA. 
No.
 It's his money. What makes you think you have any right to it? You can't go to your neighbour and be like "well...you have more money than I do, so im just gonna take some now..."
I agree that many rich people "waste" money (in my opinion) on stupid frivolous things. But it's their money. They get to choose what they do with it.)


This applies to people who fairly and legally obtained their money. Not crooks who stole/harmed others/illegal activity/ didn't pay taxes etc to  get rich

MamaK225

I'm right there with you on both @chillycanadian, we are turning into Gillead ... and that's Bezo's money. If the tables were turned and he had lost his ass, would the American public have come to his rescue? No. Did he have amazing foresight and build an empire? Yup.

Now, if it were me - I would definitely be doing good (see: Bill & Melinda) ... but I wouldn't force it on anyone. And I don't think it should be. See: monetary autonomy  

mkrel

There are so many reasons that a woman could need an abortion beyond just "not wanting" the baby.  It makes me so sad that these choices are being limited even though I don't know if I could ever do it myself.  I want to know that I and every other woman have the choice to do what is right for us given the circumstance.  

@chillycanadian I completely agree.  

cato99

Hard disagree on Bezos--Amazon is super sketchy (or rather, "savvy") about skirting tax laws, and their labor record is terrible. Jeff Bezos's fortune is built on the backs of exploited labor (whether it's technically legal or not is besides the point; reports coming out of the warehouses show unethical labor behavior). That doesn't mean anyone can randomly lay claim to his wealth, or that Amazon is "evil" in an absolute sense (I shop at Amazon constantly lol), but that we should all work towards a system that will reward everyone involved in making his enterprise successful, not just concentrate the wealth on the owner of the capital. That means supporting unionization for labor, closing tax loopholes for billionaire corporations, etc. Then after that he can do whatever he wants with his wealth, no questions there, but at the moment it's not acquired neutrally. 

Allycat11

@sourlemon agreed on everyone being far too offended. As for the men's rights I am so conflicted about it. I feel like they definitely should have a say if they want their child but it is such a slippery slope with far too many complex scenarios. 

On the leggings topic...I hated them.until after having DS, now I rarely wear anything else. 

On the current politics discussion I am aware that my opinions are unpopular. Personally I am not scared to be a woman right now but respect that others feel differently. I lean towards prolife views but recognize that compeletely restricting all abortions will lead to more problems. I am thankful that I am not a political leader making those decisions about where to draw the line. Many people I know have had abortions and every.single.one of them has been a matter of convenience. Some of them multiple times. 
My birth mother got pregnant when she and my birth father were 14, they clearly were not ready to raise a child. She hid her pregnancy for 6 months until abortion was not an option so that she could not be forced into one. Sure enough as soon as her mother found out she was taken to an abortion clinic to "have this thing taken care of". Thankfully nothing could be done at that point and she put me up for adoption at birth. That is not the right choice for everyone but I am thankful there were laws in place to protect me. 

@chillycanadian I agree that people should not be obligated to do anything with their money. While it is nice if they choose to do good things with it, they earned it that is their choice. SIL tried telling me that my parents are what is wrong with the economy because they save/invest a lot of their money and spend modestly. That's not how this works!!!

becks68

Restricting abortion - especially by state -targets the most vulnerable of women.  Those who have the means and/or parental support will be able to go out of state and have safe abortions, while those who are lacking those thing will end up in dangerous “illegal” clinics or be forced to have babies they may not financially or emotionally be able to take care of.  It would be great to assume that all of these kids would be placed into adoption and loving homes - but we know this isn’t the case, and we do not have the social infrastructure (free daycare, free pre-k, decent public mental and physical health benefits, etc) to be able to assist these women.  If my body is to be regulated by men, they should also make sure to at the very least provide for it - which none of these laws / discussions seem to do.  

olivemomma

Leggings are life.

yes the wealthy should get to decide how they spend their money but we need to do a far better job regulating how they acquire said wealth in the first place. It’s amazing how those with the most resources are able to cheat the system...

olivemomma

BTW - @Allycat11 thank you for sharing that story with us. I’m also glad laws were in place to protect you. I don’t think anyone is or would argue laws should not be in place to protect a developing baby in later gestation once viability is reached. In fact, I believe in the absence of extraordinary medical circumstances these laws are already in place.

heml

I just want to say that all of the points made and views expressed here on abortion were nuanced and well thought out, and this is EXACTLY WHY there should be more female legislators in a position to weigh in on this type (and really, all) legislation. 

olivemomma

AMEN @heml! I realize there are many men who agree with me on this topic and many women who don’t, but my overriding thought regardless is if you don’t have a uterus you have no right to pass legislation on it

jmesue1030

I don’t have the emotional energy to type out a thoughtful response to these posts but I 100% agree that this thread is encouraging and makes me love this group even more. Uteruses before dudereses 2020 ✌️

Beauxbaton

Having gone through several pregnancies, I would never force one on another woman. Mine have all ended with healthy babies. But there were some hiccups. With DS1 I suffered from incredible PPD. And I know that's technically after a pregnancy has ended, but it's still a side effect of the pregnancy. With DS2 my thyroid was wildly uncontrolled for awhile. I was incredibly depressed and suicidal as a result. It eventually got under control and got better. Then I had a placental abruption. Luckily me and him were both ok, but it very easily could have been a bad ending. With DD everything was pretty ok other than some PPD. With this pregnancy it's been very rough on my body. I keep having Sjögrens flare ups and I keep getting sick. Pregnancy and childbirth can change your body in irreversible ways. And I would never ever want someone to make the choice to change my body forever for me. As far as dad's go, I don't really feel much confliction for it. He shouldn't be able to decide anything to do with continuing or terminating a pregnancy. I will say however if a woman gets pregnant and decides to keep the baby even though the man doesn't want to, he should be able to sign his rights away and not be responsible for said child. That means he can't contact the mom or the child. 

suzycupcake

I’ve been reeling over this law being passed and the debates that have ensued. I’m so happy to see women here unifying and having a civil discussion. 

On the one hand, I hate abortion. As you know, we wanted a baby for so long. 7 years long. The agony...Every time someone says a clump of cells is not a baby or makes life/personhood some subjective thing, etc., I tear up because my journey and my baby tells quite a different story. I cannot say I’ve never utilized Planned Parenthood to prevent a possible baby. 13 years ago before I met my husband, I went and got a plan B pill. I'm sorry to be graphic. There has never been a certainty that what came out of me after wasn't the start of a baby. For like the entire Infertility journey almost, I wondered if I was being punished and never shared that with anyone aside from my husband. It's clear to me now that it wasn't the case, but I just wanted to share that—that I don’t come from a position of any moral superiority because of not only that but I cannot day honestly that I would not have gotten an abortion if a baby had resulted. I cannot say that for sure and don’t feel proud of that at all even if I have the right to exercise those choices. 

Even in my beliefs about abortion, if any woman I knew wanted it and asked me what I thought, I'd tell her the truth, but if she chose to make that decision, I'd still go with her and hold her hand so she wouldn't be alone. I'd tell her that I love her and help her. It would rip my heart out, but I'd still have compassion on her. I’d do what needed to be done to help her. 

As a Christian, Ive been feeling like a lot of people claiming to be Christians place party over principle, even over what Jesus says. I don’t believe criminalizing abortion fixes anything. I posted this meme on social media, a quote by a nun



and there is so much more debate now. I did it to point out the hypocrisy in legislating abortion but then not doing anything to feed, clothe, educate, or house the orphans/the oppressed, not doing anything to take profit out of the adoption industry, making the punishment for abortion more severe than for the people who abuse/molest/rape children, etc. In my religious beliefs, Jesus says he requires mercy and to love how He loves. To have His mind. He always pointed out hypocrisy. When the woman in the Bible committed adultery, the scribes and Pharisees wanted to stone her to death but Jesus said that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone. And none of them could. That’s the God that I serve. 

So when someone tells me that a woman should be put in prison for 99 years or worse should be subject to the death penalty for abortion, my heart grieves so heavily. Why should she go to prison or be put to death and I don’t have to or any other Christian woman who has made this choice? 

Most of the backlash I’m getting is from my fellow Christians. I just don’t get why they take everything that I say to the extreme. 

If abortion warrants 99 years in prison, then that lie told yesterday, the unloving thing said to a family member last week, the orphan not visited, that thing put before God this morning, etc. also warrants 99 years in prison. I don’t understand why they think they have the right to scale sin. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Where is the mercy that Jesus says He desires?? We are not loving like He loves if we are doing this.

Im just so upset about this. Sorry this was so long and most of it was from my Facebook debate today on my page. And yes, I agree about the Gillead comparisons. This is scary to me as a woman too.

wanderlustsoul

I don’t even have the emotional capacity to handle the whole abortion laws and I don’t even live in the US. 

I don’t think (outside of the above) I would ever have an abortion (and unless medically required), women should not be forced to have their body dictated by laws. They should be able to choose what they want. There are laws in place preventing abortion after X time unless medically necessary. Pregnancy is hard on a woman. I’ve had a decent pregnancy and it has still been hard as hell on my body and mental capacities. 

I am glad that all the people I’ve seen posting so far have been in support of pro-choice, even my very catholic friends who I went to high school with. I just have so many thoughts on this. 

jmesue1030

@AKuzReve I’m so sorry you went through that and hope you have worked through your ptsd. Thank god it didn’t end in a pregnancy. 

wanderlustsoul

@jmesue1030, thank you. I’m good now. I spent time healing and in therapy, which helped me overcome my depression and PTSD. It has not impacted me in over 5 years now and I turned my life around. I’m very proud of how far I’ve come from a place I didn’t think I would get out of. 

olivemomma

Yes thank you to everyone who has participated and especially to those ladies who shared very personal stories. You ladies are beyond strong. And @jmesue1030 I think your saying should possibly be the official slogan of whoever wins the democratic race - it’s genius.

jmesue1030

@olivemama pretty sure I stole that from Leslie Knopf but it would be an awesome campaign slogan... or at least bumper sticker 😂

suzycupcake

This is a really great paper if anyone is interested. It's one of a few reasons I'm not on either side of the movement. I consider myself pro life, but have a mixture of beliefs about it. One of them being; we cannot ignore history with regards to this topic and how deeply it is rooted in racism. All who consider themselves feminists especially should read this. 

BigBadWolf12

It won't let me open the attachment on my phone. Is it the same as this that I Googled? 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://marshall.ucsd.edu/doc/doc2/Angela%20Davis%20-%20Racism%20Birth%20Control.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwimqOqM-6biAhW86KYKHdr0ANMQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2iZymOt623RoaouKhFaVqU

suzycupcake

@BigBadWolf12 Yes that’s it. Sorry, attaching the file did make it complicated and required me to open it in Kindle.

agpandme

What is happening in our country right now regarding womens rights is terrifying.  I will be honest and say that I have had an abortion. I was 18, in a horrible relationship (abusive verbally, physically, mentally). I was weak and didn't know how to get myself out of the situation. I do not regret my choice of aborting at all.  Bringing a child into that environment would have been a horrible decision. A few years later I managed to get myself out of there, now 10 years later I'm happily married and while we had decided to not have children...we are having one now. When I found out I was pregnant, there was NO WAY I could have terminated it.  This is the first time (10 years!) that I've been pregnant with this man.  Our life is wonderful, I had no reasons to abort other than my own selfishness and that certainly wasn't good enough for me.  

I don't know what goes on in others lives and while I made these choices for myself, I cannot imagine making that choice for someone else not knowing what their life is like.  I am absolutely pro choice BUT I do believe women should not use abortion as birth control. There needs to be a cap on that method because we have so many other options available.