Centralized Thread for Gender/Sex Disappointment Discussion *Reasoning Updated*

ChiccoBeanz

     This thread is a space for the users who would like to discuss their gender/sex disappointment. It is an attempt at making a centralized place where families experiencing this issue can discuss how they dealt with it, resources they found to help them and whatever else you'd like to discuss pertaining this subject. This is meant to be a safe space for you to share these thoughts and feelings. 

     

    In the past  many women and/or families that were dealing with this issue have posted threads that ended up in a  negative mess. The last two threads that were posted with these topics, although were from the 2nd trimester board, were from a member who was D15. After constant arguing and conversing about the issue over some time, the active participants on those two threads, from D15, came up with the solution of this thread. These are the threads that this new centralized thread arose from: https://forums.thebump.com/discussion/12608455/crap-its-a-boy#latest   

https://forums.thebump.com/discussion/12608642/gender-disappointment-for-those-who-care-rant#latest

It may be a bit confusing to follow, but it starts off with the crap its a boy thread and then goes to the gender disappointment rant thread. The purpose of linking those two threads to this one, is to show how this issue has been met when some moms on the board come looking for resolve and resources. Everyone's feelings are meant to be respected, however, without giving these ladies a space, it can be seen a form of shaming, and that is not something that we would like to do as a community. I hope everyone takes the time out to look over those two threads to grasp where this idea stemmed from, and to understand that this is in no way meant to hurt anyone, but to help some others heal. I hope this helps some of you out there and that this can reduce a lot of the hurt and disruption that this topic has caused in the past. I wish all of the users who participate in this thread, a happy and healthy pregnancy, with beautiful healthy babies born to you in the end. 

** Disclaimer: I personally have not experienced these feelings, so I will not really be coming back to this thread. I just thought it would be a positive way to allow both groups the spaces they need to get through their situations without hurting and insulting one another. **

ChiccoBeanz

@mizuiro007 great minds think alike. I made it for all those who need it here.

duckinoven

@BumpAdmin @BumpCaitlin @BumpTara please sticky

Mizuiro007

@ChiccoBeanz Thank you for tagging me in this. I'm really hopeful this will allow for an open discussion on what is a common issue without so many women being hurt and offended as you mentioned.

Mizuiro007

My experience with gender disappointment, and hubby admitted this morning to having gone through the same, came from being told for five years that it would be much more likely we would have a girl. This came from radiation hubby was exposed to in the Army and it's common with his MOS and some others. So after fives years of being told again and again that most likely we'll only have girls, we were told we were having a boy.

I love my son dearly but there was a mental adjustment. It might have been easier for me. I have interests usually thought to be more common for men (video games, models, mechanics) and all my friends are male. I knew learning is a given whether baby is male or female and if I had questions my husband and my friends are open enough to answer me honestly if they know (I've asked about things from jock itch to circumcision).

My husband is now going through some disappointment as it sounds likely this baby is a girl. He has a stepsister he's close to and helped with his nieces but he still has a fear that a daughter will be interested in things he's not and that he'll struggle to bond. He's said he knows it's not logical but he's still working through it. There are a lot of things like guilt and depression that aren't rational either but are still experienced.

*I copied my post from the other thread so it's here and I don't have to repeat myself

ChiccoBeanz

@Mizuiro007 of course my love. When you expressed how you had trouble discussing this, I felt really bad for being so angry and in my feelings, and not my usual self. You are too much of a sweetheart on here to not get that space. You gave me a quick reality check. Plus, I rather everyone gets their needs mets if it is possible. 

ChiccoBeanz

@brimck10 @jschulz9988 Hey ladies, I remember you had posted about gender disappointment in the past and didn't get the resources or conversation you were looking for. I thought you 2 would appreciate this thread, as it is dedicated to the topic of gender disappointment and it is a space for users dealing with that issue to converse about it. Hopefully this helps you ladies. Have a good day.

Mizuiro007

@ChiccoBeanz d'aww.... I'm just going to be perfectly honest and tell you I'm crying happy rears now. Thank you.

I don't mind it so much for myself, I have people around me I can and have talked to about it. I know not everyone has this though. It made me feel bad after reading that article I shared and how it talked about shaming disallowing those women to acknowledge their feelings and be able to move past them. Everyone deserves to be able to heal.

ACarter0914

My beautiful daughter will be three in September. When I first found out I was having a girl I was shocked. I had convinced myself I was having a boy and it was an adjustment. It really took me a couple of days to get use to the fact that the he I've been talking to for months was in fact a she. Three years later I couldn't be more thankful. She's truly amazing and the light of my life. She's my perfect baby. I know she's technically not a baby anymore but she's still my baby.

Fast forward to my current pregnancy...I had no idea what I was having or I didn't have any confidence in what I thought he/she was. I felt boy but I didn't want to let my intuition down again so I started looking at girl stuff day and night to mentally prepare myself. Well guess what I'm having a baby boy and now I couldn't be more nervous! I was honestly surprised that I was nervous. This is something I've always wanted but it doesn't even seem real. I've never had a boy before. I don't know the first thing about having a boy!

Moral of my story: Weather your having a girl or boy, you'll adjust and adapt after all they are an amazing addition to your life. It takes some time but then you'll see him or her, fall in love with an amazing outfit or a nursery and think to yourself that it will all work out in the end.

sassysister18

With my first pregnancy I was sure I was having a girl and in fact really wanted a girl as I felt I could find better etc with a girl. Anyhow I had a beautiful baby boy!! He is my absolute world and I wouldn't change a thing!! I was a little shocked when he was born but that very quickly changed. For all those with gender disappointment when your little bean is here everything will change and you will be more in love than ever, you will adjust I promise!!

MROSALES1

I can totally relate. I had 2 boys in my first marriage. Remarried last Sept and we just found out its a BOY. Honestly we were both rooting for a girl since it would've been perfect..I felt like a failure afterwards..I cried and then my hubby reassured me..its God's will and in the mists of all this. We are now thrilled to add to our soccer team

neanerbeaner4

It was a bit of a disappointment because we both wanted a girl. However, the disappointment couldn't override the "We just want a healthy baby." Besides, my husband's reaction was just, "we'll have to try again right away, because I want a girl." I was like, "how long after is right away" to which he replied "six months or so..." Lol.

beStillbeBright

Honestly, this probably would have been better left for a private group rather than so in the face of members of this board who have had losses or are struggling with their babies having actual health issues. 

ChiccoBeanz

beStillbeBright said:

Honestly, this probably would have been better left for a private group rather than so in the face of members of this board who have had losses or are struggling with their babies having actual health issues. 

We already addressed this issue several times over. That is why this thread was made, as someone who is PGAL and dealing with a potential genetic defect, I understand first hand. It's one thread, so no more pop ups should come up. Thank you for your input though.

ketobaby

beStillbeBright said:

Honestly, this probably would have been better left for a private group rather than so in the face of members of this board who have had losses or are struggling with their babies having actual health issues. 

This thread was created specifically to avoid any future conflict on the board about this topic. Almost every thread where a mother has posted about her experience with disappointment has turned into a circus. To rectify this many members on both sides of the discussion have agreed that posting about this topic in a sticky separate from the board would be the rightful solution.

Alyssaerin996

Anyone ever experienced sadness because of someone ELSE'S gender disappointment!? We found out this morning that we're having a healthy baby girl! Very exciting and SO relieved the anatomy scan went great, but a little shocked because my DH and I both really thought it was going to be a boy. The overwhelming first feeling was relief and joy at a healthy, squirmy little baby on the screen. (I suffered a loss in January and am fully aware that healthy and sticky is the most important thing here.) However, I think DH is a little upset. He was so excited to open the envelope and then it seemed like shock and sadness took him over. He would NEVER say it and was outwardly very happy and supportive, but I feel like I could see it in his eyes. I'm a little heartbroken for him and sort of feel like I let him down! Which is silly, I know. I'm gathering up friends who have stories of how absolutely in love their husbands are with their daughters as reinforcement, and I know he'll come around...but I do feel a little sad that he doesn't quite seem to share in my excitement right now. Can anyone relate? Should I just give him a few days to work through it on his own, or try to push him to talk about it?

Thanks for listening!

yl1m32015

Alyssaerin996 said:

Anyone ever experienced sadness because of someone ELSE'S gender disappointment!? We found out this morning that we're having a healthy baby girl! Very exciting and SO relieved the anatomy scan went great, but a little shocked because my DH and I both really thought it was going to be a boy. The overwhelming first feeling was relief and joy at a healthy, squirmy little baby on the screen. (I suffered a loss in January and am fully aware that healthy and sticky is the most important thing here.) However, I think DH is a little upset. He was so excited to open the envelope and then it seemed like shock and sadness took him over. He would NEVER say it and was outwardly very happy and supportive, but I feel like I could see it in his eyes. I'm a little heartbroken for him and sort of feel like I let him down! Which is silly, I know. I'm gathering up friends who have stories of how absolutely in love their husbands are with their daughters as reinforcement, and I know he'll come around...but I do feel a little sad that he doesn't quite seem to share in my excitement right now. Can anyone relate? Should I just give him a few days to work through it on his own, or try to push him to talk about it?

Thanks for listening!

Yes, actually. We've also had a loss last year, and a scare during this pregnancy. when our anatomy scan showed that the baby was perfect, Dh and I were elated. Such a relief. The whole time, I had convinced myself and Dh that baby was a boy, idk why, just felt it was a boy. But lo and behold, baby is a beautiful, healthy baby girl! On the ride home, Dh was silent and bug eyed. After awhile I yelled, "aren't you ecstatic she's healthy?!" And he replied, "of course! But what do I do with a girl?! How am I going to raise a girl and protect her?!" Turns out, it wasn't disappointment he felt, it was fear, anxiety, and nervousness over how to relate to and how to handle "girly stuff." So I bought him a book called, "Oh boy, you're having a girl." It's really helping him to understand and ease his fears. He also saw an outfit at the store that says "daddy's little sweetheart" and he just had to buy it. He's getting more and more excited and less anxious everyday.

So talk to your Dh, perhaps he's feeling the same kind of anxiety. Perhaps he's not disappointed, just nervous. I think that's pretty normal for dads of daughters. Just wait until our little girls start dating!

Marchmellow2

My DH is also sad about having another boy. But I don't have much sympathy for him. He already has daughters. Our current son is his first biological son. And now we are having another boy! I'm happy with a boy or a girl so I just don't sympathize with him. It actually upsets me a little, how could he want more girls when he already has girls?

Mizuiro007

yl1m32015 said:

Alyssaerin996 said:

Anyone ever experienced sadness because of someone ELSE'S gender disappointment!? We found out this morning that we're having a healthy baby girl! Very exciting and SO relieved the anatomy scan went great, but a little shocked because my DH and I both really thought it was going to be a boy. The overwhelming first feeling was relief and joy at a healthy, squirmy little baby on the screen. (I suffered a loss in January and am fully aware that healthy and sticky is the most important thing here.) However, I think DH is a little upset. He was so excited to open the envelope and then it seemed like shock and sadness took him over. He would NEVER say it and was outwardly very happy and supportive, but I feel like I could see it in his eyes. I'm a little heartbroken for him and sort of feel like I let him down! Which is silly, I know. I'm gathering up friends who have stories of how absolutely in love their husbands are with their daughters as reinforcement, and I know he'll come around...but I do feel a little sad that he doesn't quite seem to share in my excitement right now. Can anyone relate? Should I just give him a few days to work through it on his own, or try to push him to talk about it?

Thanks for listening!

Yes, actually. We've also had a loss last year, and a scare during this pregnancy. when our anatomy scan showed that the baby was perfect, Dh and I were elated. Such a relief. The whole time, I had convinced myself and Dh that baby was a boy, idk why, just felt it was a boy. But lo and behold, baby is a beautiful, healthy baby girl! On the ride home, Dh was silent and bug eyed. After awhile I yelled, "aren't you ecstatic she's healthy?!" And he replied, "of course! But what do I do with a girl?! How am I going to raise a girl and protect her?!" Turns out, it wasn't disappointment he felt, it was fear, anxiety, and nervousness over how to relate to and how to handle "girly stuff." So I bought him a book called, "Oh boy, you're having a girl." It's really helping him to understand and ease his fears. He also saw an outfit at the store that says "daddy's little sweetheart" and he just had to buy it. He's getting more and more excited and less anxious everyday.

So talk to your Dh, perhaps he's feeling the same kind of anxiety. Perhaps he's not disappointed, just nervous. I think that's pretty normal for dads of daughters. Just wait until our little girls start dating!

I totally agree with this. Hubby has admitted he's nervous this time knowing we might be having a girl. It seems to be helping him to talk about it. It's the same for him, though, he said at first he was nervous about how he'd deal with all the girly stuff. Since then he's said he's afraid it'll be harder for him to bond with a girl if she doesn't have interests he can share. He's also worried because he can't help feeling more protective over a girl and feels a little overwhelmed.

I've been trying to reassure him. He has an older step-sister he's close to who is fairly girly. She had her first daughter at 16 and hubby was around her a lot when she was little. He did fine with both. I also reminded him that I have some fairly girly tastes (I love pink) but I also like cars and video games and things like that which he likes as well. I've also been showing him some little outfits that are feminine but not overly girly and that's seeming to help as well.

The harder part is with my MIL. She's always said she feels like she just does better with boys plus she has some weird thing with dolls "with real doll hair". I keep telling her okay so buy stuffed animals or rag dolls. She loves Legos and has gotten on board with she can buy those for both grandkids.

violetigerlily

I'm also kind of worried about DH.  He REALLY apparently wanted a girl. We both had always pictured a girl and have talked about having kids (usually with a girl in our minds) for the past 10 years since we were in high school. Of course LO is a boy.  I think over the course of being pregnant I thought about and got more used to the idea of having a boy, so I was able to honestly be happy to find out he was healthy (although we do need to double check his kidneys at 33 weeks, so hopefully that will stay true). DH keeps saying he isn't upset but he just seems bummed out.  

Unlike the people who's husbands are anxious about how to bond with a little girl, I'm not really sure how to reassure him.  He wanted to do stereotypical "boy' things with a girl. I will say a benefit about having a girl is it's more socially acceptable to do "boy" and "girl" things with a girl while boys playing dress up and loving princesses is seen at strange.  I'm not sure either of us knows how to get him out of this funk.  It's hard to appeal to all the boy stuff he can do with a son considering he was planning on doing it with a daughter too.  

Obviously it isn't the biggest deal in the world but I'm worried that he'll have a harder time bonding with our son.  He doesn't get emotional over things like the ultrasound (didn't want to see the sex accidentally until we opened the envelope) or even feeling kicks (it's "kind of creepy") and I'm just worried that magical moment everyone talks about when he holds his baby for the first time isn't really going to be so immediately emotional for him.  

Mizuiro007

violetigerlily said:

I'm also kind of worried about DH.  He REALLY apparently wanted a girl. We both had always pictured a girl and have talked about having kids (usually with a girl in our minds) for the past 10 years since we were in high school. Of course LO is a boy.  I think over the course of being pregnant I thought about and got more used to the idea of having a boy, so I was able to honestly be happy to find out he was healthy (although we do need to double check his kidneys at 33 weeks, so hopefully that will stay true). DH keeps saying he isn't upset but he just seems bummed out.  

Unlike the people who's husbands are anxious about how to bond with a little girl, I'm not really sure how to reassure him.  He wanted to do stereotypical "boy' things with a girl. I will say a benefit about having a girl is it's more socially acceptable to do "boy" and "girl" things with a girl while boys playing dress up and loving princesses is seen at strange.  I'm not sure either of us knows how to get him out of this funk.  It's hard to appeal to all the boy stuff he can do with a son considering he was planning on doing it with a daughter too.  

Obviously it isn't the biggest deal in the world but I'm worried that he'll have a harder time bonding with our son.  He doesn't get emotional over things like the ultrasound (didn't want to see the sex accidentally until we opened the envelope) or even feeling kicks (it's "kind of creepy") and I'm just worried that magical moment everyone talks about when he holds his baby for the first time isn't really going to be so immediately emotional for him.  

I can understand why you'd be concerned. A lot of gender disappointment is having built up expectations for what your child will be like and a lot of it is built around gender steriotypes. Everyone has to process it in their own time, mourning those expecting to make room for reality.

If it's a first baby maybe there are some other things going on too. My husband shut down for a large part of my first pregnancy. At the time it was stress and worry and he wasn't doing well with processing it. He only recently told me he went through some disappointment as well. It was the same as me, so many years of being told he'd have girls and it was a shock. Thankfully once our son was born and was there and real for him, he was able to move past all that and be excited.

I really hadn't thought about it before but I'm curious now. They talk about the pregnancy feeling "real" sooner for the mother since she's carrying and can feel baby, it takes longer for the father since he's a little more distanced. I wonder how that affects gender disappointment, if it's typical for fathers to need more time to process it.

*I wanted to add that even without gender disappointment not everyone feels that immediate connection. Just like couples date and built a relationship over time, he may bond with baby boy over time as he takes care of him.

lupita99

I had my Scan today and found out it's a healthy baby boy, I'm excited but my hubby isn't. I asked him after telling him the sex if he was happy n her reply no I'm not. That made me fell like shit but I happy with my bby n I'm sure he'll come around

jenamase

It's so nice to hear your stories - I found out yesterday that I'm having a boy and I was desperate for a girl. It's going to take a while to get used to.
I know when our beautiful boy is born he will be my world but it is difficult to accept that my dreams of a girl are not going to become a reality (this time).

Gingermom15

Maybe a lot of times for first time parents it's more of an anxiety issue for raising a certain sex. My SO for example is thrilled about having a healthy baby boy, but he (SO) is nervous he will become like his own father, who had all boys. He has always said his father was too rough and harsh with his sons in hopes they would be manly, therefore he grew to resent him and never really had the parent-child bond. Maybe he feels he would know how to bond better with a girl because he is so close to his younger sister (his mother remarried).
I know this isn't exactly a gender disappointment per say, but to someone who doesn't know the situation it could seem that way. He has said several times he hopes to have a daughter one day, but he is getting so excited about the idea of having a son. He has already started buying toys and planning father-son trips for when he is older. It took some time for it to sink in that he isn't his father and could do better for his own children.

Alyssaerin996

Thanks to everyone who shared their experiences about their SOs! It was very encouraging and helpful- so many of you made points that really resonated with me. It turns out you were all correct! Further talking with DH last night uncovered that his slight lack of excitement really was fear-based and caused by anxiety about raising a little girl. He's already worried about the impossible standards society sets for women and all the "bad guys" out there (he's like the sweetest guy in the world and I told him if I found him, our girl has a chance to do just fine! :x) I also reminded him that we had a long time until we needed to worry about that and we are in this together - he's not going to need to explain to DD about her period, because (god-willing) I'll be around for that! I think talking about it really helped him. I was also careful to not be at all judgmental and validated that lots of people share his feelings about having a girl vs. a boy. I already notice a difference in his attitude today vs. yesterday!

Thanks again for all the words here - very grateful to have an outlet and receive such good advice and support.
;;)

HellsAngel22

Personally I don't think this should be a pinned thread.
I think it just adds salt to the wounds to the ladies who have miscarried & are having problems TTC. It's like a slap in the face.
I think if people want to talk about gender disappointment then maybe it's best to start a private group, where those that are disappointed can talk and get the sympathy they so desperately want.

ChiccoBeanz

HellsAngel22 said:

Personally I don't think this should be a pinned thread. I think it just adds salt to the wounds to the ladies who have miscarried & are having problems TTC. It's like a slap in the face. I think if people want to talk about gender disappointment then maybe it's best to start a private group, where those that are disappointed can talk and get the sympathy they so desperately want.

We've already addressed this issue several times over. It was asked to be pinned by myself, other PGAL d15 moms like myself, those who have miscarried, and those who are dealing with this issue, so that those ladies can have a safe space to talk about this as well. In the past having multiple posts about this was too much. Now those moms and families dealing with gender disappointment can have one central space to talk together. I get it, it hurts. But they need a place on the bump too. If you don't like this thread, by all means skip it, but the negativity and redundant arguments that this thread is an issue isn't going to get it closed nor is it going to change anyone's feelings who is dealing with this. Your concern is appreciated, but it is a little late and it has already been voiced and considered in the past. I know because before creating this thread, I expressed the same sentiments. 

Mizuiro007

HellsAngel22 said:

Personally I don't think this should be a pinned thread.
I think it just adds salt to the wounds to the ladies who have miscarried & are having problems TTC. It's like a slap in the face.
I think if people want to talk about gender disappointment then maybe it's best to start a private group, where those that are disappointed can talk and get the sympathy they so desperately want.

The reason it was felt a pinned thread would be better is to try to avoid new threads on the subject continually popping up. A private group might be more easily missed by new members not willing to search but they might notice a pinned thread instead. Women having suffered loss were concidered when it was originally discussed.

HellsAngel22

A safe place would have been a private group not on a board where the first topic you see is gender disappointment.
I never said anything negative I was expressing how I felt. Just like everyone else does.

ChiccoBeanz

HellsAngel22 said:

A safe place would have been a private group not on a board where the first topic you see is gender disappointment. I never said anything negative I was expressing how I felt. Just like everyone else does.

Well thank you for your opinion then.

Mizuiro007

HellsAngel22 said:

A safe place would have been a private group not on a board where the first topic you see is gender disappointment.
I never said anything negative I was expressing how I felt. Just like everyone else does.

No, you were not negative in voicing your opinion, and I appreciate that. The issue is that these same opinions have been voiced each and every time a thread has been started on the topic. A very serious discussion was held on the last one as to how it could be best resolved and this was the best solution everyone could agree to. That discussion would have been the time to voice your opinion.

*You may also notice not many posts have been made on this thread following your same opinion. This is the reason for that.

fmraglio

HellsAngel22 said:

Personally I don't think this should be a pinned thread.
I think it just adds salt to the wounds to the ladies who have miscarried & are having problems TTC. It's like a slap in the face.
I think if people want to talk about gender disappointment then maybe it's best to start a private group, where those that are disappointed can talk and get the sympathy they so desperately want.

I get where you're coming from, I truly do, but with all due respect people TTC should be on the TTC boards...not D15. It's fine to lurk, and we welcome lurkers but one could argue that talking about our babies at all on D15 could be a slap in the face to those TTC. I don't agree with the sex disappointment threads and I find them offensive as well but this stickied thread is a solution D15 came together to produce, something that both sides felt would work for everyone on the board. We can't protect everyone on the site, it's just not possible and would be a mess trying to do so.

ETA: Even those who have experience multiple losses on our board agreed to this thread as a proper solution to the issue. And so far it has been extremely effective for both sides.

ChiccoBeanz

@mizuiro007 thanks for responding in a much better manner than I did. I couldn't find the words. 

Mizuiro007

@ChiccoBeanz Oh, believe me when I say I'm finding it very difficult at the moment. I've typed up quite a few rants and told myself "no" and deleted them.

HellsAngel22

fmraglio said:

HellsAngel22 said:

Personally I don't think this should be a pinned thread.
I think it just adds salt to the wounds to the ladies who have miscarried & are having problems TTC. It's like a slap in the face.
I think if people want to talk about gender disappointment then maybe it's best to start a private group, where those that are disappointed can talk and get the sympathy they so desperately want.

I get where you're coming from, I truly do, but with all due respect people TTC should be on the TTC boards...not D15. It's fine to lurk, and we welcome lurkers but one could argue that talking about our babies at all on D15 could be a slap in the face to those TTC. I don't agree with the sex disappointment threads and I find them offensive as well but this stickied thread is a solution D15 came together to produce, something that both sides felt would work for everyone on the board. We can't protect everyone on the site, it's just not possible and would be a mess trying to do so.

I totally get not being able to protect all. That's just not possibly I do agree. Whether this was the place or not to voice my opinion I done it anyway.
I wasn't rude about it. (Not saying you said I was) Its just hard coming on to a board and the first thing you see is a Gender Disappointment.
But if that's what is wanted then who am I? I'm just one voice.

ChiccoBeanz

@mizuiro007 PM 

redfallon

ChiccoBeanz it may be a good idea to edit the initial post to include why and how this thread came to be. At least then we can refer people to read that. I re-read it and it doesn't make it clear that this has been a hot topic and after multiple posts on this that turn into what they turn into, this was the agreement. Basically how it's been explained to those dissenters of the post, but put in the initial post.

Mizuiro007

@redfallon I agree with this. Maybe a link to the thread where it was discussed? Can we link a closed thread for this purpose?

My only concern is it being like the post in the thread for anxiety over raising a child of the opposite gender, clearly someone didn't read the whole initial post.

ACarter0914

I'm just going to butt in for a moment and say thank you to all the moms that don't necessarily agree with this thread but have put themselves and there feelings aside so other moms can express themselves freely. It's very much appreciated.

I personally couldn't imagine going through what a lot of moms on this board have gone through and it speaks volumes about your character that your willing to let other moms (without your same view) express themselves without being judgmental.

***edited because I missed English in 5th grade

ChiccoBeanz

redfallon said:

ChiccoBeanz it may be a good idea to edit the initial post to include why and how this thread came to be. At least then we can refer people to read that. I re-read it and it doesn't make it clear that this has been a hot topic and after multiple posts on this that turn into what they turn into, this was the agreement. Basically how it's been explained to those dissenters of the post, but put in the initial post.

Gotcha, give me a sec. 

missemmawoodhouse

I'm thankful there's a centralized place I can use to update my post it.