DH works in academia. It's much more likely universities will become for-profit. Programs like engineering are typically self-sufficient but programs like history are not. The University of Wisconsin system is currently working on bylaws that would allow programs to be cut and tenured professors to meet performance reviews. Previously, programs couldn't be cut unless there was a "significant campus - wide financial emergency" and tenured professors could be fired unless they had done something criminal. It's interesting to watch because academia does not follow the same rules as the rest of the economy.
Right now, part of the cost of college is propping up departments with low enrollment and low industry donations. Cutting those programs would lower overall cost.
^^ I'm actually really interested in this, in a way. I admit to not knowing too much about what's going on here, but on the surface it didn't sound good (news story sound bite wise). But you're painting it with a more detailed brush, and I'm curious what those who know more about this think about it. @Sammy K
@janit368 my LO has been fake coughing at me for a while now. It scared me because initially I wasn't sure if he was actually coughing, or not. He's not teething, tho. I think part of it is him copying me (I have an allergic cough), and part of it is him testing out sounds and my response to them
I googled "baby fake cough" a few weeks back - apparently it's common and it's babies trying a new way to make noise, and/or mimic us and typically a way to get attention because they figure out early one we will respond to coughing because we think they are having a problem! Sneaky babies. I typically do fake coughs back and she laughs.
^^ I'm actually really interested in this, in a way. I admit to not knowing too much about what's going on here, but on the surface it didn't sound good (news story sound bite wise). But you're painting it with a more detailed brush, and I'm curious what those who know more about this think about it. @Sammy K
I get very concerned that colleges might be determining which majors are "worth it". Like, I would hate a world where liberal arts get cut for engineering and business majors only. Colleges are supposed to provide a well-rounded education. Not to mention your undergrad major typically doesn't dictate what your job later is. I mean, I was a poli sci major and I now work in accounting! But I wouldn't go back and change my major as I learned how to read large volumes, create arguments, write well, etc.
I'd prefer universities to stay non-profit so they can continue to support programs that may not "make money" but are important for humanity.
One of my aunts only will pay for her kids college if they are in a science or engineering major. Not a fan of that approach.
That being said, the trades are where it's at! My bro is a hair stylist - professionally trained but no traditional college - and he's the most well-off of all my siblings.
We kept saying we should push LO to become an electrician!
^^ I'm actually really interested in this, in a way. I admit to not knowing too much about what's going on here, but on the surface it didn't sound good (news story sound bite wise). But you're painting it with a more detailed brush, and I'm curious what those who know more about this think about it. @Sammy K
I get very concerned that colleges might be determining which majors are "worth it". Like, I would hate a world where liberal arts get cut for engineering and business majors only. Colleges are supposed to provide a well-rounded education. Not to mention your undergrad major typically doesn't dictate what your job later is. I mean, I was a poli sci major and I now work in accounting! But I wouldn't go back and change my major as I learned how to read large volumes, create arguments, write well, etc.
I'd prefer universities to stay non-profit so they can continue to support programs that may not "make money" but are important for humanity.
One of my aunts only will pay for her kids college if they are in a science or engineering major. Not a fan of that approach.
That being said, the trades are where it's at! My bro is a hair stylist - professionally trained but no traditional college - and he's the most well-off of all my siblings.
We kept saying we should push LO to become an electrician!
The trades are where its at. DH's nephew has certifications in welding, and despite having some previous problems with the law and sobriety, can still command a serious salary and will usually have someone who will hire him. And the prices that a certified plumber or electrician can command?! Whooowheee.
Yes. Trades. I will encourage LO to go to a 2 year school and get a trade so he can support himself and live comfortably........he doesn't need a history degree and to contemplate his life forever in my basement kapeesh?!
@mellymar@hoodoll82 Agree on the trades. I'd be cool with either kid going that route.
The problem is money. Public universities get very little public funding. Parents don't want $100,000 in debt so little Susie is well-rounded. Most well-paying jobs (for new grads) are STEM related. STEM companies have the resources and motivation to support programs where they hire from. And STEM programs tend to be well attended. So more kids + industry donation + higher earning potential (can pay back debt) means these programs thrive. Not to mention they bring in research money and get publicity for the university.
Liberal arts programs have lower earning potential (for average grads, I know there are exceptions), lower enrollment, lower research dollars and lower industry dollars. So to make it work, everyone sees a tuition increase. @hoodoll82 I understand where you're coming from, but without government support of higher education, the European model for higher education makes more financial sense.
And as for the tenure issue, it allows them to cut dead weight. There are professors making well in excess of $150,000 teaching 9 hours a week. But they can't be fired. DH is tenured, and even he agrees with performance standards. But he also secured a $250,000 donation to renovate a lab this week which is something the liberal arts program can't do. So he's not worried about meeting standards. (PS Most performance standards have little to do with teaching.) Interesting note: most STEM facilities are over 50% donor funded.
I know I am biased. I have a BS in engineering and a MS in engineering and graduated with no debt. I will pay for college for my kids as long as they are aware of job prospects and earning potential. I will not pay $100,000 for a 4 year photography degree. Some of this is basic economics.
My dh has a 2 yr degree and makes more money than my nursing degree ..... Depresses me but it's a fact. My student loans are outrageous...... And he has none.
Flame free -- DH and I decided early on that we will only pay for STEM degrees. I had a liberal arts degree before I went back to nursing and have outrageous loans on a wasted degree. If they want a non stem degree that's up to them.
The loan bubble has to burst at some time though so I anticipate it being very different in 18 years.
TTC: 1/2014
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We went to my husbands family for Christmas and there are 7 other kids...LO has been stuffy and miserable since then and I think he has a cold...anything work particularly well for any of your babies with a cold?
@kezdk Poor baby! We just got over a cold. We sat in a steamy bathroom a lot. Before bed, I used saline mist and the nose Frieda and then put a little baby Vicks on her chest. Our ped suggested Zarbee's cough syrup. It's all natural. I think it helped. We propped her mattress but she hated that. Mostly, I just cuddled and nursed her to comfort her. Not much to do but wait it out.
The liberal arts talk is funny... I went to a liberal arts university that was crazy expensive... People majored in all sorts of crap and I always wonder what people are doing with a pan-African studies major or even a philosophy major... I read a really funny article about the absolute uselessness of a "communications" degree and how many companies equate to a high school diploma...as in everyone has it.
I went to a crazy expensive liberal arts college on partial scholarship. Lucky as hell not to have loans to pay back (thanks mom and dad). I dislike science and would have been miserable in STEM. I make a very good salary in the non-profit world, with a very good benefits package.
I know this isn't the average story, but just to say literature majors can become gainfully employed. Especially if they know they need to be making a paycheck vs making dreams come true.
@Sammy K Why can't the humanities departments also get grants? There are national endowments, etc. for them.
But yes, our government should be funding education. Maybe we can swap a war or two for higher education (yeah, military budget, I'm side-eyeing you).
I still really think that many college majors have little to do with what your actual job will be unless you are in a technical/skilled major like a lot of the STEM ones.
People major in economics or business too, and those seem just as murky to me in terms of what job those equate to in the real world.
At this point a college degree essentially is what a HS degree was 20 years ago. It's not as important what your major was, as much as that you have one. Not saying I agree with it, it's just been my (white collar) experience.
I did go to a state school, so maybe I'd feel differently if I paid private school rates for my undergrad degree...
Yeah I would be pretty unimpressed with a school that took away liberal arts stuff.... And when we, as in society, stop appreciating well rounded educations we are not going to be any smarter.
That being said I really want my children to think about their major and not just do what they love or pick something that sounds interesting without understanding the long term consequences.. It's a beautiful thing to want to study the history of a specific ancient culture but are you going to be employed after that 200,000 education? And do you care? I guess that is what double majors are for.
@virginiaunicorn11 Not grants. Corporate donations. Company that hire humanities majors hire a wide variety of majors, so they don't (usually) support specific programs. With STEM, you have focused companies hiring specific degrees, so a cement company will donate $250k to a civil engineering program. A wastewater company throws in $100k. A construction company wants naming rights and puts up a million and that department now has state-of-the-art facilities. Private donations will always outpace grants and public funds. The more specific the donation, the more the program actually sees. If you do anything through the general university, 50% or more goes to overhead.
Again, I'm speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions and there are people without a degree making much more money than I am. And we do need people with liberal arts degrees, just not as many as we have. It's supply and demand: we need more people in STEM fields so those are the graduates finding good jobs and those programs are well supported. But STEM is hard so it will never be flooded.
Side note: If you donate to your Alma mater, you can specify the money as well. I don't donate through the alumni association, I donate to specific scholarships and departments to have the greatest impact.
ETA My husband does no grant writing. None. It's a waste of time. They are competitive and low money for the effort. A few lunches, some free consulting and he can literally leverage hundreds of thousands of dollars with almost no paperwork. It's a different world.
I have a STEM degree as well (biochemisty). I would love for LO to follow in my footsteps, but I honestly don't know what field jobs are going to be in by the time she is in college. I'm guessing Ag, nursing, engineering, but I really don't know.
More than anything thing though, DH and i want her to go to our Alma mater. I mean she can go where ever she wants. . .but she is going to be raised to bleed scarlet and grey if we can!
Heh my husband would hate if LO went to my alma mater because we are notoriously snobby. I bought her some onesies anyway
I agree with a lot of what's above - I would be happy if my kid wanted to major in whatever, but I'd feel more "secure" in her future if she was in STEM - whether that's right or wrong. My husband works for a nonprofit that supports STEM education in youth so maybe she will have some interest!
Eta: I think one reason I'm open to whatever major is because I paid for my own schooling as my parents didn't have much money. So I think I'm considering it from the point of view of the student and not a "paying parent". So yeah, if I'm paying for my kid I may change my tune...
I feel a weird sense of vertigo as I was just at some other birth month board lurking their fffc thread, and they were in a huge argument with someone about college over there. So then I come back here and click this thread first and its still college...
Oh, LO can major in liberal arts I just won't pay for it.
I agree that a world without liberal arts would be horrible. I loved my liberal arts degree. I did research. I wrote a thesis. I just did something I loved rather than something I wanted to make a career out of.
Thankfully I found something that is both of those in my second degree
TTC: 1/2014
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I agree that university degrees are like diplomas now - in fact I liken them to toothbrushes. That being said, I've got a communications degree and I'm a policy analyst and comms degrees are the sought after degree (aligned with poli-sci) in a lot of government positions up here!
I have a double major in American Politics and African American studies, by coincidence
I doubled in Political Science & Middle Eastern Studies with a minor in Arabic and then got my MSc in Comparative Politics. I took a roundabout way to finally find a job I love but I'm glad I had options.
My husband got his BA & MA in Social Work and after 10 years in the field he wishes he had chosen something a little broader.
Which is why if LO wanted to be a welder or some other vocation I'd encourage him to get a 4 year degree in something like History or Chemistry and then he can go get his vocational certification.
I think college teaches a lot more than just the classes to get a degree...for me it was the first time being away from home (like, on another continent) and taught me responsibility like if I had an 8am class I had to actually set my alarm and get up and go even though no one was forcing me. And I had to set a schedule and discipline myself to sit down and study even though no one was there to check. Managing a double major plus rowing 6 mornings a week was invaluable for my personal development and I want LO to go through that experience as well.
I knew a lot of people who never grasped the responsibility part (oh look! No one can make me go to class or study! I'm so free!) and they ended up dropping out.
I am going to add this here but maybe should have done it in fffc but I think online universities are total crap... They cheapen what a college degree is ... I do not think online classes or programs from real universities are crap though and I love the convenience they offer... But I know my practice does not take anyone with an online degree seriously. Sorry for those of you who have them because I am sure they are a lot of work but I just would never pay for it.
^^ Round of applause. Don't even get me started. I don't understand the thinking that you can earn a "degree" in 18 months when it took the rest of us 3-4 years. And as for online classes, they're convenient I guess, but aren't you missing out on the dialogue that goes on in say, a small- group seminar, where you're surrounded by peers with different viewpoints and interesting insights?!
My husband thinks it's hilarious when we see someone with a University of Phoenix Alumni license plate holder and I lose my shit.
Just go to community college. Get credits that actually transfer. Geez.
^^ Round of applause. Don't even get me started. I don't understand the thinking that you can earn a "degree" in 18 months when it took the rest of us 3-4 years. And as for online classes, they're convenient I guess, but aren't you missing out on the dialogue that goes on in say, a small- group seminar, where you're surrounded by peers with different viewpoints and interesting insights?!
My husband thinks it's hilarious when we see someone with a University of Phoenix Alumni license plate holder and I lose my shit.
Just go to community college. Get credits that actually transfer. Geez.
My husband is in the military and takes classes from an online college. He is doing the 'accelerated' program to get his degree, and its going to take 3 years. He can't 'just go to community college' because his military requirements prevent him from committing to a class schedule. Also, we never know if we're randomly going to be sent somewhere with no notice (thus preventing him from completing a class, and earning a fail), or be stationed in an area that doesn't have a community college (like where we are now, the nearest community college is an hour away). As for the dialogue in a peer setting, they are required to state an 'opinion' on the topic briefly when the assignment is introduced, and then within a certain period of time they must reply to a minimum of three 'classmates' opinions. So there is dialogue in the exact same way there is dialogue here, you can say something at 320pm, and I can reply to it an hour later.
I see how you and @ElRuby could think what you do, but try to withhold judgement. That person with the University of Phoenix Alumni sticker could be a marine or army or navy or air force or coast guard enlisted who pulls duty for 2 days and nights straight, putting their lives on the line, and then during their very little free time with their families... They try to better themselves so that when they are done with the military they have a degree that can be used to enter the civilian workforce. Contrary to popular belief, just being in the military does not automatically give one a jumpstart in getting a job post service. Add in to the fact that you guys with your 'brick and mortar' degrees have been able to use the benefits of your degrees longer than your service member has, so you've been able to enter the workforce and establish yourself before the service member can even begin to contemplate life outside of their military contract.
My husband, and so many others in the military (or single moms who work two jobs, or people who work odd/third shift, or people who live in remote areas) are working their asses off for these degrees, and to imply that his degree is not as good as yours because he didn't go to a physical location really ticks me off, honestly.
Well put @mellymar. It could also be a situation like mine where you are taking online masters courses while 9 months pregnant (then with a newborn, now with a 6 month old), working a full time job, taking care of your house, dog, and making sure everyone eats. Frankly I don't have the time to drive to night classes to participate in insightful small group discussions. I would much rather spend my lunch breaks reading, writing papers, and contributing to my online discussions, and be able to spend time with my daughter and husband when I get home. I think online programs are a blessing for those of us looking to improve the lives of our families without taking time away from them.
Deleting reply. (A) I appreciate your husband's service @mellymar (B) I'm not purposefully trying to offend anyone and re-reading it I think it comes off as condescending. We all have different life paths and to each his own.
My 2016 resolution is to live more by the Golden Rule and I wouldn't want someone's unsolicited opinion about my major or alma mater either.
@mellymar Great response. I judge the universities rather than the students because they're ridiculously expensive and for-profit. Thanks for sharing that. It opened my eyes to a new perspective. Judge not... always always a lesson to relearn.
I think it really depends on the degree... I don't really care if my accountant never met in a classroom by I certainly don't want my therapist or children's teacher to not have been in one and it really freaks me out that they can do that.
I think it really depends on the degree... I don't really care if my accountant never met in a classroom by I certainly don't want my therapist or children's teacher to not have been in one and it really freaks me out that they can do that.
Yes, there are definitely degrees where I would not feel very comfortable seeing someone who did not attend a physical class of some kind. Doctors, obviously. They need to practice on those people dummies. Therapists and teachers need to feel comfortable interacting with people, so yeah.
LO is 30 weeks, so at the youngest age of June babies...but he won't roll over. He will only acquiesce to tummy time if propped up on a pillow under his chest. I tried today with no pillow and he can prop himself up on his arms, looks around and starts going ballistic after about a minute. Forget about even trying to roll. He physically *can* roll over, he did tummy to back a few times at 6 weeks and went back to tummy once at 4 months.
He likes to roll side to side grabbing his toes and usually sleeps on his side these days. He sits up unassisted so its not like he's missing other milestones.
Has anyone else's LO gotten to 7 months and just is not having any part of rolling over?
A girl in my neighborhood had told me that her daughter who's a few months older had rolled a couple of times and then didn't do it again til 8 mo so as long as you know he *can* I think you are ok
Re: FFAQ - Flame Free Anytime Questions
Right now, part of the cost of college is propping up departments with low enrollment and low industry donations. Cutting those programs would lower overall cost.
I'd prefer universities to stay non-profit so they can continue to support programs that may not "make money" but are important for humanity.
One of my aunts only will pay for her kids college if they are in a science or engineering major. Not a fan of that approach.
That being said, the trades are where it's at! My bro is a hair stylist - professionally trained but no traditional college - and he's the most well-off of all my siblings.
We kept saying we should push LO to become an electrician!
The problem is money. Public universities get very little public funding. Parents don't want $100,000 in debt so little Susie is well-rounded. Most well-paying jobs (for new grads) are STEM related. STEM companies have the resources and motivation to support programs where they hire from. And STEM programs tend to be well attended. So more kids + industry donation + higher earning potential (can pay back debt) means these programs thrive. Not to mention they bring in research money and get publicity for the university.
Liberal arts programs have lower earning potential (for average grads, I know there are exceptions), lower enrollment, lower research dollars and lower industry dollars. So to make it work, everyone sees a tuition increase. @hoodoll82 I understand where you're coming from, but without government support of higher education, the European model for higher education makes more financial sense.
And as for the tenure issue, it allows them to cut dead weight. There are professors making well in excess of $150,000 teaching 9 hours a week. But they can't be fired. DH is tenured, and even he agrees with performance standards. But he also secured a $250,000 donation to renovate a lab this week which is something the liberal arts program can't do. So he's not worried about meeting standards. (PS Most performance standards have little to do with teaching.) Interesting note: most STEM facilities are over 50% donor funded.
I know I am biased. I have a BS in engineering and a MS in engineering and graduated with no debt. I will pay for college for my kids as long as they are aware of job prospects and earning potential. I will not pay $100,000 for a 4 year photography degree. Some of this is basic economics.
The loan bubble has to burst at some time though so I anticipate it being very different in 18 years.
Edited to say I always see degrees costing just perhaps the importance of some fading... Obviously nursing degrees, etc are important
I know this isn't the average story, but just to say literature majors can become gainfully employed. Especially if they know they need to be making a paycheck vs making dreams come true.
@Sammy K Why can't the humanities departments also get grants? There are national endowments, etc. for them.
But yes, our government should be funding education. Maybe we can swap a war or two for higher education (yeah, military budget, I'm side-eyeing you).
I'm also gainfully employed by a nonprofit like @virginiaunicorn11!
I still really think that many college majors have little to do with what your actual job will be unless you are in a technical/skilled major like a lot of the STEM ones.
People major in economics or business too, and those seem just as murky to me in terms of what job those equate to in the real world.
At this point a college degree essentially is what a HS degree was 20 years ago. It's not as important what your major was, as much as that you have one. Not saying I agree with it, it's just been my (white collar) experience.
I did go to a state school, so maybe I'd feel differently if I paid private school rates for my undergrad degree...
That being said I really want my children to think about their major and not just do what they love or pick something that sounds interesting without understanding the long term consequences.. It's a beautiful thing to want to study the history of a specific ancient culture but are you going to be employed after that 200,000 education? And do you care? I guess that is what double majors are for.
Again, I'm speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions and there are people without a degree making much more money than I am. And we do need people with liberal arts degrees, just not as many as we have. It's supply and demand: we need more people in STEM fields so those are the graduates finding good jobs and those programs are well supported. But STEM is hard so it will never be flooded.
Side note: If you donate to your Alma mater, you can specify the money as well. I don't donate through the alumni association, I donate to specific scholarships and departments to have the greatest impact.
ETA My husband does no grant writing. None. It's a waste of time. They are competitive and low money for the effort. A few lunches, some free consulting and he can literally leverage hundreds of thousands of dollars with almost no paperwork. It's a different world.
More than anything thing though, DH and i want her to go to our Alma mater. I mean she can go where ever she wants. . .but she is going to be raised to bleed scarlet and grey if we can!
I agree with a lot of what's above - I would be happy if my kid wanted to major in whatever, but I'd feel more "secure" in her future if she was in STEM - whether that's right or wrong. My husband works for a nonprofit that supports STEM education in youth so maybe she will have some interest!
Eta: I think one reason I'm open to whatever major is because I paid for my own schooling as my parents didn't have much money. So I think I'm considering it from the point of view of the student and not a "paying parent". So yeah, if I'm paying for my kid I may change my tune...
I agree that a world without liberal arts would be horrible. I loved my liberal arts degree. I did research. I wrote a thesis. I just did something I loved rather than something I wanted to make a career out of.
Thankfully I found something that is both of those in my second degree
My husband got his BA & MA in Social Work and after 10 years in the field he wishes he had chosen something a little broader.
Which is why if LO wanted to be a welder or some other vocation I'd encourage him to get a 4 year degree in something like History or Chemistry and then he can go get his vocational certification.
I think college teaches a lot more than just the classes to get a degree...for me it was the first time being away from home (like, on another continent) and taught me responsibility like if I had an 8am class I had to actually set my alarm and get up and go even though no one was forcing me. And I had to set a schedule and discipline myself to sit down and study even though no one was there to check. Managing a double major plus rowing 6 mornings a week was invaluable for my personal development and I want LO to go through that experience as well.
I knew a lot of people who never grasped the responsibility part (oh look! No one can make me go to class or study! I'm so free!) and they ended up dropping out.
My husband thinks it's hilarious when we see someone with a University of Phoenix Alumni license plate holder and I lose my shit.
Just go to community college. Get credits that actually transfer. Geez.
I see how you and @ElRuby could think what you do, but try to withhold judgement. That person with the University of Phoenix Alumni sticker could be a marine or army or navy or air force or coast guard enlisted who pulls duty for 2 days and nights straight, putting their lives on the line, and then during their very little free time with their families... They try to better themselves so that when they are done with the military they have a degree that can be used to enter the civilian workforce. Contrary to popular belief, just being in the military does not automatically give one a jumpstart in getting a job post service. Add in to the fact that you guys with your 'brick and mortar' degrees have been able to use the benefits of your degrees longer than your service member has, so you've been able to enter the workforce and establish yourself before the service member can even begin to contemplate life outside of their military contract.
My husband, and so many others in the military (or single moms who work two jobs, or people who work odd/third shift, or people who live in remote areas) are working their asses off for these degrees, and to imply that his degree is not as good as yours because he didn't go to a physical location really ticks me off, honestly.
Not everybody can physically 'go' to school
(A) I appreciate your husband's service @mellymar
(B) I'm not purposefully trying to offend anyone and re-reading it I think it comes off as condescending. We all have different life paths and to each his own.
My 2016 resolution is to live more by the Golden Rule and I wouldn't want someone's unsolicited opinion about my major or alma mater either.
Thanks for sharing that. It opened my eyes to a new perspective.
Judge not... always always a lesson to relearn.
He likes to roll side to side grabbing his toes and usually sleeps on his side these days. He sits up unassisted so its not like he's missing other milestones.
Has anyone else's LO gotten to 7 months and just is not having any part of rolling over?