Vaccination Debate

williamandrachelray · September 2014

SallyCag said:
Alright. I'm out. Clearly, we will never sway each other. And clearly you all think I and those that think like me are uneducated and selfish. I have realized that, although many on this board are civil, some of you are very, very rude. For the record, I do give to charity and volunteer. And I do care about others in my community.

I don't think you're uneducated at all. You've given the best evidence I've ever seen for not vaccinating. I just don't feel that what you've provided is sufficient to cut down herd immunity by 1. Personally, I understand that you've weighed both options seriously and that you've chosen what you truly think is best for your child and I can respect that. I just disagree with that decision because part of your reasoning included protecting your child through herd immunity and because I feel like the vaccines are the lesser of the two evils.

Agree completely!

ltut · September 2014

Oh my goodness. This argument is ridiculous. How you ladies have time to sit around and do this all day is beyond me. The webinar does nothing but explain peer reviewed articles. It looks at vitamin d in the same way as the flu shot, neither for or against the vaccine or the vitamin. Just peer reviewed articles explained. Sorry I don't have the brain power left at the end of the day to type the whole thing out for you since you have the time to sit around and argue but not give a few minutes to something else. What's sad is I am supposed to be swayed by your opinion and articles, but I don't get the same from you. Anyhow, I do not have time to stay up and argue this. I have a life away from the bump vaccine debate. Gasp. We are all set in our opinions, so that's that. Have a good night ladies. I hope however you choose to vaccinate or not vaccinate is all the experience you hope it will be.

chickyclg · September 2014

SNail312` · September 2014

@KristinMTBell‌

KristinMTBell said:
How is it that all of a sudden the people who do not want to spend the hour and a half to watch a webinar are the ones with all the free time? I always refuse to watch videos about news articles or scientific research. I'd rather read it. I pretty much prefer to limit my interweb video watching to cats and corgis.

And read the DIRECT research articles. Not just hear someone talk about them. I'll make my own conclusions, thank you!

heltoncl · September 2014

I would just like to contribute at this point, as I have resisted since starting the thread simply because I wanted to step back and actually consider the many alternative perspectives (although it is apparent at this point that the debate I encouraged was much more one sided than anticipated) and I imagined a place where people could feel comfortable in voicing their opinions and bouncing ideas off one another. I even attempted to keep my own philosophies and perspectives aside in this, however I did eventually explain that I am pro-vaccination as I think some felt this thread was a personal conquest of mine to discover or be "swayed" by alternative opinions which was not the case. I think I was a little naive in my endeavor (new to forums, and not a super bump frequenter however more so lately), and it is pretty obvious that there are some hurt feelings and not to mention drama with vaccination debates spilling over into other threads. The beauty of forum based communication is obvious. We all have the opportunity to voice our opinions in a mass discussion based thread and being able to do so in this sort of setting is actually very empowering for some and many, myself included, feel comfortable enough to share precisely how they feel. This does come at a cost, however, as when we become so passionate about something we tend to forget that there are actual humans behind the keyboard. I am willing to bet that there are several individuals with alternative perspectives than the masses that might actually have something resourceful to contribute to this discussion but refrain out of fear. I don't mean to write a novel or come across as condescending, but I do hope that we all can consider this. Thoughtful discussions and debate are wonderful! But remember to be constructive and not hurtful.

schnitz9 · September 2014

holachicaaa said:

I just don't understand the point of creating the thread if you already have your viewpoint set and are not willing to participate. Stirring the pot to watch it boil over?

While reading the whole thread I was just about to say this. Naive? Really? This is a heated topic IRL of course it would be and even more heated one here. I've had my decision made for like ever so I tried so hard to stay away. But 13 pages wow!!!

aggiebug · September 2014

Well thanks @SallyCag‌ I put a lot of time and effort to conductive discuss with you and I don't think you even read it. Or maybe you did but have nothing to say in return.

aggiebug · September 2014

ltut said:
PLEASE take the time to listen to this webinar regarding the flu shot and the real results surrounding it. It goes into peer reviewed literature from many, many sources and explains the research in detail. It also explains the efficacy of Vitamin D in doing the same job as the flu shot, except better. It's long, but you wanted my research, and this sums it all up wonderfully.

https://www.innatechoice.com/viewvideo.cfm?id=1F306184-A5E5-6F58-2B079288EEF7DAD9

Edit: Don't even know why all to tag in this to make sure you see the research that you wanted, and no, my computer has not been in a black hole as previously suggested, but I hope the right people see this post. Some people are not FTMs who just sit around debating vaccines on the bump all day. I'm a busy mom of two toddlers and I homeschool. Thanks for your patience.

Where do you expect me to listen to an hour and a half webinar? At work? So my boss can hear me and in 2 min snippets in between patients? Or at home when I am usually spending time with my DH? Or in bed when DH is trying to sleep instead of my usual reading time?

Find the research let us read it hardly anyone has time for an hour and a half webinar.

And tbh I think most on here are really focusing on the core vaccines for children. While many of us strongly agree thay the flu vaccine is a good thing most also understand that with it's variable efficacy and being an annual vaccination it's benefits vs risks is not quite so clear cut as the other vaccines we are discussing.

All I will say is people die annually of the flu. Americans die annually of the flu. And it isn't just the weak (ie pregnant women and children) but average healthy adults as well.

jennjilljo · September 2014

I can not see where so many people are taking offense in this thread. I haven't seen anything offensive.

Irishcurls · September 2014

lilybug319 said:

Can I just say something concerning febrile seizures? I don't say this to necessarily sway someone one way or the other, but just so the information is out there. 1) Febrile seizures (often due to illness and high fever) are actual quite common among small children, and the CDC suggests as many as 5% of children will have at least 1. This is not epilepsy. 2) Febrile seizures most often occur in the same time frame that the MMR vaccine occurs. This is not a causative relationship necessarily. 3) While very scary to witness, a seizure itself is not damaging to the brain, and children recover very quickly from them.

ETA: Ironically, diseases like measles, mumps, and rubella could cause more febrile seizures to occur, due to an inability to control a high fever.
Not to take away from anything you've said but some seizures do have a role in causing brain damage. There are different types of seizures one can have. Tonic clonic or grand mal seizures (same thing, different name) can make oxygen intake very difficult thus cutting off oxygen to the brain. These are the type my daughter has and it has been verified by many neurologists that part of her delays are from the lack of oxygen during any and all of her 45 minute or longer seizures. We now carry oxygen tanks with us at all times and the school has one too. You can now all carry on with your pro-vaccine discussions.

My husband also has tonic clonic seizures, though his are the typical 1-3 minute seizure--longer than that is a very serious emergency and I'm very sorry for your daughter (and you!). That must be devastating, but that's not the manifestation of febrile seizures, which are what most often occur as a possible side effect of vaccines, @lilybug319.

ETA: I definitely should have clarified that I was still speaking about febrile seizures specifically in point 3, since there are very rare instances of people who die (SUDEP) but that's not what anti-vaxxers are dealing with, kwim?

heltoncl · September 2014

Just to clarify, again, I wasn't intending on upsetting anyone with that post. It wasn't even necessarily related to this post in general. I just came back to the post and was stunned at the turn it took and actually had a lump in my throat for initiating the debate in the first place. It was not an "experiment." I don't feel like I need to divulge any further on my stance, I have multiple times now said my husband and I are pro vax. Discussion isn't always meant to make up someone's mind but to open it up for other possibilities if you choose to. I like to understand where others are coming from, however I do have my own mind and my own set of beliefs and understanding. And for the most part the vaccination arguments and defenses were constructive which is fabulous! It was more of a blanket thought that I hoped to get across lightly as these sorts of methods of communication can be very painful for some when the few individuals take it to a different level. That goes for any discussion. I still support debate and think it's important and necessary. I was not and am not offended and I'm actually surprised my thought from last night struck such a bad chord with a few of you. It was just intended out of sheer guilt for the few individuals who either may have not felt comfortable to post (pro vax or not) or those who felt it took a turn for the worse and hence the end result. It was just a mindset of compassion but by no means a mindset to roll over. I hope that clears that up. I wasn't intending to start anything else. But these will certainly be my final thoughts on the matter.

jaztastic · September 2014

My conclusion: vaccination debate is like debating wearing seat belts

You dont HAVE to do it, and yea sure in some cases maybe you can understand why it was beneficial to not wear it (ie Police officers being able to respond faster). But in the end it saves countless lives, and is better off as a whole for the masses.

HerHighness · September 2014

jennhillhoite said:

I can not see where so many people are taking offense in this thread. I haven't seen anything offensive.

Yah its not like anyone called anyone a cunt or anything....

reneamac313 · September 2014

Trust me, there are a few words I have in mind for those who choose not to vaccinate their children and people who want to rely on herd immunity without constructively contributing to it (not speaking of those who can't get immunizations and rely on it for their well being). I will keep them to myself and know that your children will not be around mine and I will judge because it's justifiable. I'm an open - minded person about most everything you can throw at me but not about this. I'll keep those words to myself because I don't want to be rude.

SallyCag · September 2014

@aggiebug sorry I didn't answer your questions. This thread has become so confusing and difficult to find anything in. Is there a way to search only what you wrote so I can go back and reference it? I honestly don't recall what you asked me, but I'd be happy to discuss further if you'd remind me.

SallyCag · September 2014

@kkleigh10‌ wrote That last sentence kills me. Disagreeing with an opinion (even strongly) is not hurtful and can very much be constructive. Nobody here flew off the handle and resorted to name calling or insults. THAT would be hurtful.

Not true. I was definitely insulted when this happened

Ducktale said:
God @SallyCag‌ you are a treat. Let's be best friends. I assume you're not one for like, volunteering or donating money to a good cause or anything? Because that would require putting the good of others and the community above yourself, and you don't seem like that type of person.

It goes beyond a debate when you start to attack someone's character because you disagree with them.

tropicbreeze · September 2014

My children will be vaccinated and as soon as I can get the flu shot I will be vaccinated for it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2441883/

An interesting read about the flu during pregnancy. Personally, I'm going to take ever precaution to have a healthy, happy baby.

reneamac313 · September 2014

There was an amazing episode of Nova last night on PBS that was all about vaccinations. It was really extremely informative and reinforced my beliefs about how important vaccines are. If you have got the time I definitely recommend looking it up and watching it! I didn't know this before but for herd immunity to work effectively the vaccination rate needs to be at 95%. Even a small difference can make herd immunity obsolete, and some states are starting to drop below that number because of people opting out. Due to that in France between 2008-2011 there were 15,000 cases of measles leading to 6 deaths. That speaks directly to those who don't vaccinate their children for diseases that aren't common now....they will be again if that is what you think and you don't vaccinate against it!

Ducktale · September 2014

Aw crap. I thought this thread was done.

shaunnatoribio · September 2014

There is nothing anyone can do about the personal decisions that individuals make for their children. Unless it is made illegal to not vaccinate, you angry people are going to have to just stew on it behind your computers. It is obviously so much easier to be part of the majority than the minority. Bahhh, sheep, bahhh!

elephantsonpatrol · September 2014

shaunnatoribio said:

There is nothing anyone can do about the personal decisions that individuals make for their children. Unless it is made illegal to not vaccinate, you angry people are going to have to just stew on it behind your computers. It is obviously so much easier to be part of the majority than the minority. Bahhh, sheep, bahhh!

QFP and ...

chickyclg · September 2014

shaunnatoribio said:

There is nothing anyone can do about the personal decisions that individuals make for their children. Unless it is made illegal to not vaccinate, you angry people are going to have to just stew on it behind your computers. It is obviously so much easier to be part of the majority than the minority. Bahhh, sheep, bahhh!

This response just doesn't make sense sweetheart, the reason anti-vaccinating is not illegal is for those that have compromised immune systems, or allergies to the vaccine. Not so people can skirt the system and come up with bull shit reasons to compromise the health of others. Think about things before you go off and make allegations.

Also your post is a little "trollish" why would you chose to start drama when this topic is done and over.

lizjennings81 · September 2014

Goddamn this thread.

shaunnatoribio · September 2014

Lol!! Drama? This is the INTERNET, sweetheart.
It makes perfect sense: I'm sorry you don't understand. And because I wanted to read the opinions of others on the topic out of genuine interest, and was then baffled and saddened by how many bullies are on this site (you), I decided to post. I am such a troll. Sue me.
This is the prime example and validation for not being on sites like these. People are bored.
Go do something- It's nice out! PEACE!

:):):):):)

foxslaw · September 2014

What a nasty attitude

Ducktale · September 2014

DIE THREAD!!!!! DIE DIE DIE!

elephantsonpatrol · September 2014

shaunnatoribio said:

Lol!! Drama? This is the INTERNET, sweetheart.
It makes perfect sense: I'm sorry you don't understand. And because I wanted to read the opinions of others on the topic out of genuine interest, and was then baffled and saddened by how many bullies are on this site (you), I decided to post. I am such a troll. Sue me.
This is the prime example and validation for not being on sites like these. People are bored.
Go do something- It's nice out! PEACE! :):):):):)

Then go away. Please. The sooner the better.

thegoodpotato · September 2014

You guys want that I should sink this thing? I'll tie a concrete block to its legs and we'll never see it again.

(Said in my best 1940's gangster accent)

chickyclg · September 2014

shaunnatoribio said:

Lol!! Drama? This is the INTERNET, sweetheart.
It makes perfect sense: I'm sorry you don't understand. And because I wanted to read the opinions of others on the topic out of genuine interest, and was then baffled and saddened by how many bullies are on this site (you), I decided to post. I am such a troll. Sue me.
This is the prime example and validation for not being on sites like these. People are bored.
Go do something- It's nice out! PEACE! :):):):):)

I know I shouldn't, but when it is admitted......

chickyclg · September 2014

@thegoodpotato SINK IT PLEASE!!!!!!

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