I think it is absolutely ridiculous to compare discrimination against blacks and gays. A private business owner is entitled to their religious beliefs just as a gay couple is entitled to theirs. A business owner should not have to sacrifice their beliefs in order to honor someones else's, particularly if no one being harmed. If you don't like the way a business owner chooses who they serve to then find business elsewhere. That's the beauty of America.
I don't understand how you can say there is no comparison between discrimination between blacks and gays. If you chose not to serve someone over race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc that's discrimination.
And how would business owners know the sexual orientation of their patrons (besides the bakery example we've been discussing) would they assume that 2 people of the same gender eating together were gay? It's not like people wear a big sign announcing they're gay.
Because black people were treated as property and were chained and beaten and forced to be slaves. Discrimination towards gay people doesn't compare. In the case of the bakery, they didn't choose not to serve them because they're gay. The bakery had served them many times before. They chose not to support their gay wedding by not making their wedding cake.
Ever heard of Matthew Shepard?
My gay best friend avoids holding hands with his partner in publoc and tries not to go around certain areas at night.
Discrimination is discrimination.
This makes my blood boil. Not selling a cake spreads the idea that its ok to treat otherslike second rate citizens.
Matthew Shepard was one person, not an entire race. And I'm not saying gays haven't been discriminated against, just that it doesn't compare to black people. While Jim Crowe laws came after slavery, they were clearly a result of how black people were treated. The laws also applied to public facilities... schools, transportation, etc. The matter being discussed is private businesses. The government should not tell people who they can love just like they shouldn't tell people how they should worship.
So we should wait until it gets to the level it got to with blacks?? Yeah that makes sense.... Being proactive is overrated, anyway.
Continuing @JmeMichelle's point, I wonder if they've ever made a cake for a Jewish wedding. Is that not the same thing?
I certainly can't speak for the baker in particular but, based off my knowledge of Christianity (assuming the baker is Christian), it's not the same thing. If his religion doesn't condone gay marriage that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't condone any marriage outside of their particular denomination. But I don't know anything about the baker. Maybe he wouldn't make a cake for a Jewish wedding or a Muslim wedding or a Baptist wedding because his religion only condones marriage within his denomination. I think it's his right to have his religious beliefs and not be forced to go against them. Just like it's anyone else's right not to buy cake from him.
I think it is absolutely ridiculous to compare discrimination against blacks and gays. A private business owner is entitled to their religious beliefs just as a gay couple is entitled to theirs. A business owner should not have to sacrifice their beliefs in order to honor someones else's, particularly if no one being harmed. If you don't like the way a business owner chooses who they serve to then find business elsewhere. That's the beauty of America.
I don't understand how you can say there is no comparison between discrimination between blacks and gays. If you chose not to serve someone over race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc that's discrimination.
And how would business owners know the sexual orientation of their patrons (besides the bakery example we've been discussing) would they assume that 2 people of the same gender eating together were gay? It's not like people wear a big sign announcing they're gay.
Because black people were treated as property and were chained and beaten and forced to be slaves. Discrimination towards gay people doesn't compare. In the case of the bakery, they didn't choose not to serve them because they're gay. The bakery had served them many times before. They chose not to support their gay wedding by not making their wedding cake.
Ever heard of Matthew Shepard?
My gay best friend avoids holding hands with his partner in publoc and tries not to go around certain areas at night.
Discrimination is discrimination.
This makes my blood boil. Not selling a cake spreads the idea that its ok to treat otherslike second rate citizens.
Matthew Shepard was one person, not an entire race. And I'm not saying gays haven't been discriminated against, just that it doesn't compare to black people. While Jim Crowe laws came after slavery, they were clearly a result of how black people were treated. The laws also applied to public facilities... schools, transportation, etc. The matter being discussed is private businesses. The government should not tell people who they can love just like they shouldn't tell people how they should worship.
I have to keep this shorter than I'd like due to the angry baby on my chest, but are you flucking kidding me? Do you really think it has only been one person? No, that's ridiculous. And playing "who's dick is bigger- discrimination edition" is frankly stupid.
Yes, slavery occurred and was horrible. So was the segregation and discrimination the black communities had to endure. But that fact that slavery existed does not negate the similarities between the discrimination they suffered then and the discrimination the gay community suffers now.
Let's say you walk into a bakery and see a shop owner refuse service to someone who is black. Are you only angry about the discrimination because slavery existed? Let's say the customer was Jewish. Are you only willing to stand up for them because their people went through the holocaust? Do you seriously want to make the argument that the situations aren't comparable because the gay community hasn't experienced a massive tragedy? Come the hell on.
That is not what I said not what I think. I agree that gay people have been discriminated against. So have black people, Jews, Christians, old people, women, and pretty much any group you can think of. That's not even the main point of my original comment. My point is that the government should not be allowed to force private business owners to violate their religious beliefs. Just like the government shouldn't be allowed to tell a person that they can't marry someone of the same sex.
Ppl either don't know or forget that millions of homosexuals were killed in the holocaust as well. And many of our favorite artists of the 20 th century were gay as well and hid it for fear of persecution. Antigay laws were on the books then too- it was seen as a mental defect.
Going in a different direction but I have to get this off my chest:
In my postpartum world, regular favors can be exchanged for sexual favors. Possible TMI follows:
For example, DH - you know that BJ you've been bugging me about for the past two weeks? Here it is - in the form of a car part you had me go pick up from Auto Zone. In 0° weather. WITH our 3 week old. At 8pm. Seriously. I hope it satisfies you as much as a BJ would have.
Continuing @JmeMichelle's point, I wonder if they've ever made a cake for a Jewish wedding. Is that not the same thing?
I certainly can't speak for the baker in particular but, based off my knowledge of Christianity (assuming the baker is Christian), it's not the same thing. If his religion doesn't condone gay marriage that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't condone any marriage outside of their particular denomination. But I don't know anything about the baker. Maybe he wouldn't make a cake for a Jewish wedding or a Muslim wedding or a Baptist wedding because his religion only condones marriage within his denomination. I think it's his right to have his religious beliefs and not be forced to go against them. Just like it's anyone else's right not to buy cake from him.
But Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the messiah. That goes against his religion. Therefore, any ceremony or ritual is against his religion because it violates the very basis of his religion.
Theoretically, he's not anti-Jewish people, even though it doesn't coincide with his religious beliefs. The fact of the matter is that all of this has nothing to do with being against his religion (if we're being honest here) and everything to do with being against his personal beliefs.
@peanutmuse that's true, because I am a Christian and my personal beliefs involve loving my neighbor. Because Jesus actually mentioned that, though he said nothing about sexuality.
Going in a different direction but I have to get this off my chest:
In my postpartum world, regular favors can be exchanged for sexual favors. Possible TMI follows:
For example, DH - you know that BJ you've been bugging me about for the past two weeks? Here it is - in the form of a car part you had me go pick up from Auto Zone. In 0° weather. WITH our 3 week old. At 8pm. Seriously. I hope it satisfies you as much as a BJ would have.
@lena122 And I go back to ask, do they play ball equally? Do they refuse to serve others who break the rules set forth by their religion? I highly doubt it. Therefore they are selectively playing their religious card which is total bull.
I don't like Dr Brown bottles. *steps away from the computer slowly*
You actually think this is something to "back away slowly" about @jblank03? That's funny, lol. Every baby and every parent is different. That's pretty much par for the course. Nothing controversial there!
Holy shizz balls. I walk away at people not watching Scandal and come back to Jim Crowe laws, lunch counters, discrimination and gays v. Black people in the discrimination Olympics?! Damn.
So I'm going to ignore the quote trees and say that Bill was full of shit. And wrong on really so many levels. Let's be clear that Bill had NOTHING to do with business and everything to do with discrimination. I think it's naive to believe otherwise. I'm more worried that Gov. Brewer was basically shamed into vetoing - that makes me very afraid for that state. Also? From a political perspective, I wonder what that does to her career. <--- Scandal/ House of Cards, West Wing watcher. And this because it's awesome: https://youtu.be/cHXwY1_n_cY
@peanutmuse - Everyone (especially my coworkers, friends etc) swear by the bottles so that's why I felt it was a little U, but definitely joking about the rest in light of the other discussions
@ashleyfinn23; are you sure it was a bakery? Unless there were 2 cases in Washington? In Richland, WA (part of the Tri-Cities where I live) this same scenario happened at a flower shop and it did make National news. 2 gay men who had been purchasing their flowers from this flower shop for upwards of 10 years asked the owner to make the flowersfor their wedding. She refused, citing it was against her religious beliefs. There were several lawsuits brought against her. I haven't heard lately the status of those lawsuits. And yes, the flower shop is very much still in business.
@peanutmuse that's true, because I am a Christian and my personal beliefs involve loving my neighbor. Because Jesus actually mentioned that, though he said nothing about sexuality.
Actually the Bible does address sexuality in the Old Testament. Leviticus 20:13
Also Jesus hated sin, not sinners. He associated with the "filth" of society back then which were tax collectors and prostitutes and he displayed love and compassion on them. So mistreating someone because they are gay goes against what the Bible teaches even though it states that "If a man lies with a man as he does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."
People like to say all the time that the Bible doesn't address homosexuality, but it does. The problem is when a Christian chooses then to hate or shun someone because of it, when in fact Jesus never did such a thing.
I said Jesus didn't address homosexuality. The old testament says a lot of stuff we don't adhere to anymore.
Re: UO Thursday
So we should wait until it gets to the level it got to with blacks?? Yeah that makes sense.... Being proactive is overrated, anyway.
My cat can read EKGs, can your human do that?
_________________________________________________________________
Aren't you glad we know better?
married 3/3/12----- Alanson Kavi born 1/15/14
In my postpartum world, regular favors can be exchanged for sexual favors. Possible TMI follows:
For example, DH - you know that BJ you've been bugging me about for the past two weeks? Here it is - in the form of a car part you had me go pick up from Auto Zone. In 0° weather. WITH our 3 week old. At 8pm. Seriously. I hope it satisfies you as much as a BJ would have.
Theoretically, he's not anti-Jewish people, even though it doesn't coincide with his religious beliefs. The fact of the matter is that all of this has nothing to do with being against his religion (if we're being honest here) and everything to do with being against his personal beliefs.
ETA: @Lena122
married 3/3/12----- Alanson Kavi born 1/15/14
So I'm going to ignore the quote trees and say that Bill was full of shit. And wrong on really so many levels. Let's be clear that Bill had NOTHING to do with business and everything to do with discrimination. I think it's naive to believe otherwise. I'm more worried that Gov. Brewer was basically shamed into vetoing - that makes me very afraid for that state. Also? From a political perspective, I wonder what that does to her career. <--- Scandal/ House of Cards, West Wing watcher.
And this because it's awesome:
Emma Kate - born 10.16.03 @ 29 weeks, weighed 1lb 13oz and 13.5" long.
TTC #3
I said Jesus didn't address homosexuality. The old testament says a lot of stuff we don't adhere to anymore.
I don't know why the quotey thing is weird...
married 3/3/12----- Alanson Kavi born 1/15/14