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NBR & Highly Controversial re: Mosque near Ground Zero
I know this is VERY controversial right now, but if you're at all interested in this topic, this blog posting on The Village Voice brings up excellent points & brings up some things that the media is ignoring.I know it is a very one-sided argument that will anger anyone opposed to the mosque, but I enjoyed the read! (Warning - fowl language included in the blog posting)
https://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/08/dear_rest-of-am.php
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Re: NBR & Highly Controversial re: Mosque near Ground Zero
while I understand that not Muslims are terrorists & they have the right to worship & congregate. Do I think they should build it there? No! They need to exercise a bit of sensitivity to the families of 9-11 & America for that matter! His points as to why we are wrong about not wanting a mosque on/near ground zero are completely outrageous!
he stated "The truth is that you're terrorists in your own right". Are you kidding me? Did we kill Muslims for believing in Christianity? Absolutely not! That is exactly what the terrorists did to the 911 victims! The radical Muslim terrorist groups goal in life is to kill as many people who do not believe as they do.
whoever wrote this is completely wrong IMO!
i think it's an idiotic made up issue that intentionally distorts the facts to rile up political partisans.
it's neither really a mosque nor at ground zero. the people who will use the cultural center are new yorkers who happen to be muslim, and they have been harmonious parts of the community fabric before and after 9/11.
gawker.com has also cross-posted this piece, especially how it pointed out that the surrounding neighborhood also is home to such places as an off track betting parlor, a titty bar, a century 21 discount store, mcdonalds, a bunch of bars, and other savory joints. the hallowed ground argument is pretty much baloney.
i feel like people who oppose the center are not directly impacted by day to day life in lower manhattan, nor do they really know the dynamic of that local community.
I think that article is hilarious. Of course it is tongue in cheek but it brings up some good points. It's also important to remember that Al Qaeda and other extremist groups are itching for the US to be "at war" with Islam. We are not - and by freaking the eff out over what amounts to a YMCA type building, we are playing right into their hands. We look like total morons.
And please, it's not just the "hallowed ground" of that area. There are protests against mosques and community centers everywhere. It's NOT just about Ground Zero. The hysteria is against an entire religion, and that hysteria runs counter to everything we as America are supposed to stand for. Frankly, it's pathetic.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
A. Many families of 9-11 victims are Muslim. Many more do not oppose this community center. Let's not make assumptions about all of "the families."
B. It's legal. The end.
C. The community center isn't for radical Muslim terrorists. this argument is like saying we shouldn't allow a church to be built near the Murrah building on OK. Just because some Christian a$$hole terrorist blows up a building doesn't mean we don't allow Christians to worship there. It is the exact same thing.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Actually, Christianity in the past has killed those who refused to convert. Look at the Spanish Inquisition.
I am a devout Christian, and I think that the mosque should be built. For one, I have a few friends who are Muslim, and through conversations with them, it is evident that they are peaceful people. I do not believe in their beliefs at all, but that's what freedom of religion is about. It is also like saying that people like Eric Robert Rudolph who bombed an abortion clinic represents all of Christianity and its view. The masterminds behind 9/11, which my mom was in and thankfully got out with on PTSD, were very sick individuals twisting their ideologies on others.
Proud Mama to Mickey (12.03.09) and Nemo (06.06.13)
Well said. I think too many people spouting off on this don't have all the facts.
katie and epphd - you both said what i wanted to say but i couldn't quite think of how to say it :-) just wanted to say i agree with both of you.
also - the author of the article is totally right regarding the tacky 9/11 souvenirs and what not. when i lived in that area it used to make me sick seeing people profiting from this tragedy. i can't even tell you how many times i saw tourists standing in front of what once was the wtc smiling and taking pictures. really? ugh.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I do think they should be allowed to have a mosque to practice their religion in but I just think it is a poor choice for location. That is still very much an open wound for our country and I think if it is allowed there, it is going to be a lot of protesting and defemation done to the building, which is not right but I bet it will happen. I do not think all muslims are out to destroy this country. Many of them moved here to get away from their own countries but they would still like to keep their faith which I am all for.
On another note I really wish Obama just wouldn't have commented on it all because I feel like it was a lose lose situation for him. If we would have said they shouldn't build it there people would have accused him of being racist and he said it should be there and now people are accusing him of being unamerican. He should have just stayed out of it since it is a not his call anyway. It is a New york decision.
Really though, no, it isn't. It's not up for public debate - the former Burlington Coat Factory building owner is legally within his rights to put up whatever he'd like. Legally, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks - even New Yorkers.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Oh thank you for the information. I thought I heard on the tv that the Mayor or someone was going to make the final decision, but what you say above makes more sense. I really probably shouldn't have commented because the more comments I read the more I realize I do not know that much about this. My overview thoughts are it is their right to practive their religion and to have a building to do it in. And, Obama should have stayed out of it.
I'm not certain and now it is hard to find non-biased info, but the building was a Burlington Coat Factory. My bet is it went out of business or its lease came up. Let me see if I can find it.
(and really, if the owner wanted to inflame hostilities, wouldn't constructing it immediately after 9-11 and not 10 years later be a better way to do it? I just do not believe this is his motivation).
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
OK, it sounds like the current owner of the building only recently came into posession of it - hence the reason it wasn't built prior to 9-11.
https://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/45-park-place%E2%80%99s-place
"The structure was home to a Burlington Coat Factory when, 143 years later, the landing gear of a plane rocketed through its roof. It then sat empty for years, a mute skeleton of a building?the windows boarded up, metal gates yanked across its facade, the top floors in shambles. Today, letters spelling out "Burlington Coat Factory" are faint outlines in chipped paint."
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I don't know...it still feels to me like the Muslims are "benefiting" in some tiny way from the 9/11 attacks. I just can't help but feel that if some radical baptists were the cause of this, I (as a baptist) would feel wrong for even asking NY to let us build a church there. I just think the Muslims should be understanding that while it was an extremist group of their faith, it was still some members of their faith and that it's a bit callous of them to think that no one would have a problem with them building a center there. Yes, there are titty bars and OTBs and other such buildings w/in the same distance from Ground Zero, but the titty bars and OTBs weren't responsible for the 9/11 bombings. It's just not the same thing in my mind.
However, I was called a "white supremacist" for this same opinion on FB just yesterday. So maybe my opinions are wrong...
If we (as Christians) asked to build a church where we bombed an abortion clinic, I wouldn't agree with that decision either. I don't think it's right.
The religion of Islam was not resposible for the 9-11 attacks. Terrorists were.
By your logic, is it wrong then that there is a Baptist tabernacle steps from the Olympic Centennial park, since Eric Rudolph carried out bombings in the name of Christianity?
Is it insensitive that there is a New Birth Inner City Ministries, an evangelical (and some could say "radical") church 4 blocks from the same site?
You absolutely have the right to your opinion, but I think if you try to extricate pure emotion from it, you will see that objectively a community center for Muslim New Yorkers is not the same as a monument to terrorists, which is kind of what you are saying this would be.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I don't know much about these events, since I don't watch the news or read the newspapers. How many people were killed in this bombing? Was it on the same level as the 9/11 attacks? Also, were the tabernacle and the Inner City Ministries built in locations that only came available as a result of the bombing? If so, then yes. I absolutely think they shouldn't be there.
I'm not saying this community center for Muslim New Yorkers is a "monument to terrorists." I'm simply saying it's insensitive of the Muslim New Yorkers to ignore the pain that this could cause some of the families of the victims of 9/11. They're able to buy this land because of the 9/11 attacks, and that seems wrong to me.
OK, to be 100% honest, you lost a little bit of credibility with me with the bolded statement. If you are not interested in current events or know the background of some pretty major US events, your opinions are based largely on emotion and not logic. That's not a slam - it's just reality. FYI, the bombings I was referring to happened during the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta and were a pretty big deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Olympic_Park_bombing
It doesn't matter that "only" 100 people were injured - it was a series of bombings on US soil perpetrated in the name of religion. But let's be honest, no one has a problem with churchs being built because Americans on the whole are more comfortable with Christianity and consider Islam to be "other."
As for whether it is "sensitive" to 9/11 families - again, they do not speak with one voice. Many were Muslim. Many have no objection to this community center. That argument (that it is insensitive to the families) does not hold water.
And as for someone buying the land because of the attacks - is it wrong because the person who bought it is Muslim? Or that it was available because of the bombing? Because if a good old Amurican bought it cheap to put up a WalMart, I seriously doubt anyone would complain.
This has everything to do with "us" versus "them" and what is sad is that we are ALL AMERICANS. It pains me that many people cannot think patriotically unless all "patriots" look alike and worship the same god.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
First of all, I'm obviously interested in the events. I just don't get facts from jaded "Let's show all the blood and gore we can in a 15 minute video so it's basically a train wreck that no one can look away from" news stations or read the newspaper. If you know how to sort through the internet, you can get facts on some pretty big events.
Second, "some pretty major US events"? It was one event you're referencing. Yes, 2 different buildings, but still the same bombing. Also, I was 14.
There is actually a church that's trying to rebuild that fell due to the 9/11 attacks that is not being allowed to rebuild. So churches are having issues with this while building a mosque should have no issues at all?? I see a problem with that. Especially since the church was already there.
I agree (since it's a fact) that some of the victims were Muslims. However, the majority of them were not. Also a fact. If you go by this article, it says "for several hundred" whereas the total victim count for 9/11 is 3,497. Sorry, that's not the majority to me and therefore, it would be inconsiderate of the Muslims to push to have a mosque build there.
Yes. It is wrong that a Muslim is able to buy this land to build a mosque because an extremist Muslim bombed the WTC and a landing gear landed on that building, causing to to be available for sale later. If we (Christians) went and bombed somewhere killing thousands of a certain race or religion, then later bought a property that came available because of that bombing and pushed everyone to allow us to build a church...I wouldn't agree with that either. It's putting salt in a lot of people's wounds.
Honestly, I'm not trying to be snarky - you said you don't read papers or watch the news - that obviously means your opinions are based less on news or reports and more on your feelings. That is not in and of itself a bad thing - it just is what it is.
Yea, that church is pissed off because the transit authority offered it sixty million dollars of public money to rebuild - and the CHURCH did not think it was enough. That's right - they wanted more than $60M of public funds to rebuild and since they are NOT getting it, they aren't rebuilding. I am having a hard time feeling sorry for them. This community center is getting $0. Here is a link to the story: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/18/leaders-disappointed-government-declares-deal-rebuild-ground-zero-church-dead/
Honestly I'm not sure how to respond to this - evidently the feelings of hundreds families of dead people slaughtered by a terrorist don't count because they don't worship the same god. Wow.Well, plenty of Christian terrorists have killed and somehow we have no problem with megachurch after megachurch going up.
It appears we are at an impasse. I am not going to convince you that your feelings are based in pure emotion and not in logic and reason. And you are not going to convince me that because people just feel "yucky" about it that we should put aside the First Amendment of our constitution - that we should do *precisely* what the terrorists want us to do. I am sure that you and I have a lot in common (CDs rule!) but on this we will have to agree to disagree.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I think the 300+ Muslims who were killed on 9/11 would be pretty surprised to find out they were killed for believing in Christianity.
Um...you didn't even know that the Olympics were bombed makes it pretty clear that you actually *aren't* getting your facts.
I wasn't even alive when the terrorist attack on the Munich Olympics occurred, but I still know about it.
I didn't want to get into it because it's sort of beside the main point of this post, but I was actually in the middle of having major abdominal surgery when I was 14. Luckily one of my last, but none the less...I was kinda "busy." I do get my facts...I just didn't when I was 14 and otherwise occupied. No, I don't go trudging through the internet to find big events that happened years ago unless they come up...but if they do come up, I research on them before I post.
You're right about the impasse. I'm hard-headed and it usually takes a lot to get me to change my mind. That being said, I know all of this is simply my opinion. That's all it ever will be. I know that in the end, it won't be up to me, that the vote will never come this far (NC) and furthermore I don't vote. I don't believe I ever said that the First Amendment should be put aside. I believe I always have said that I think it's wrong. That being said, if they're not breaking any rules, they're going to build the mosque...regardless of how many "me"s there are out there. If there's no law being broken, I don't believe America will break any laws by forbidding them from building. I just simply think that the Muslims are being inconsiderate by forcing so many people to swallow this jagged pill.
It's like my husband always says: "I may not believe in what you're saying, but I'll defend your right to say it." I don't agree with what the Muslims are trying to do here. I've posted my reasons as to why since that's what we were asked for. However, if it comes down to it and they aren't breaking any laws, they will build. I don't think the US will become some crooked country just to stop this one building. I know it will p!ss a lot of people off when it's built, and there will be a lot of vandalism and other horrible things that go along with it at that mosque, but it will be built none the less. That's their right. I never once said to trample on the First Amendment.
How is what you were doing precisely when it happened even relevant? That like saying you might know nothing of 9/11 because you were in surgery then, too.
I'm sorry, but the fact that you don't read, watch the news, vote, or learn about anything that happened prior to adulthood is shameful, ignorant, and quite frankly, embarrasing.
Wow. So the fact that I read up on things as they come up in my day-to-day life is "shameful, ignorant, and quite frankly embarrassing"? I just think differently. If something is big enough to come up in my daily life, then I look into it. Otherwise, it wasn't that big was it? If I can't find out about something by word of mouth from someone in my circle...it doesn't seem that it's that big to me. Yes, tragedies happen, but some are just tragedies to those that it happens to. Until the other day I hadn't heard about the "Craigslist Killer". Does that mean I'm ignorant? No, it just means I choose not to expose myself to every.single.serial killer out there. It's the way I choose to live my life. I enjoy it. That being said: I don't vote because I know that I'm not "up to date" on everything happening around me because I wait for it to be big enough for it to get to me by word of mouth. I feel not voting is my responsibility since I don't actively search out and research all the possibilities.
This is not at all the point of this post, ladies. If you can't win the argument attack the one making the argument?
It is kind of the point of the post though, in a roundabout way. You have an opinion on this matter, as to where "the Muslims" should build this "mosque" (all in quotes b/c "the muslims" are not a homogenous group and it's not a mosque, but that's neither here nor there) but you admit you don't watch the news or read the news. So your opinion comes from.....where, exactly? This is not an outrageous question.
If you are sorting through the internet, as I think you described it, then chances are you are, actually, reading the news. If not, and you're only reading blogs and the like, then your opinion still has no basis in fact, only basis in other opinions. So it makes hard for someone like epphd, whose opinions are usually solidly grounded in the facts, to take you seriously.
The fact that you were clueless about the Olympic bombing is really sad, to be honest. It doesn't matter what you were doing at 14. The incident has gotten enough press over the past 14 years for you to know about it, and so I think the fact that you had never heard about it - not that you weren't knowledgeable about or didn't know all the details, but had never heard about it - is kind of mind-blowing.
And really, the fact that you depend on "your circle" to determine what is and is not important or "big " news is just astounding.
I said I don't watch the news or read the newspaper. I'm sorry y'all assumed that also meant I didn't read news anywhere else. Read back through the post if you must.
"My circle" also consists of my DH (who is a former Marine and is VERY up to date on news because he does keep up with it), everyone on my FB page (who also keep up with the news on a regular basis), and anyone in my family (who also keep up with the news). "My circle" might only be people directly related to me, but it doesn't mean they're close-minded or isolated people. I simply choose to allow my friends and family and DH to be my "filters" so that I don't have to hear about all the murders and crimes going on around my life. I choose to shelter myself and my family a little bit. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant in the least.
Just couldn't stay quiet the whole time.
The ground zero mosque issue is not really an issue. The Constitution protects the religious rights of all religions and the right not to believe. The Constitution also protects the rights of organizations and individuals to own and administer legally owned property. The laws regarding the regulation and enforcement of zoning, something I often don?t agree with, have permitted the use of this building by the organization wanting to build a center there. Everything else is irrelevant.If we truly desire to defeat terrorism, then we have to understand what terrorism is. It is a tactic that uses fear to force people to act in ways that are against their nature or beliefs. To defeat terrorism, we must embrace the ideals of freedom and liberty and protect the rights of all individuals and not just those of a select few. The path that some politicians have chosen for political expediency, the religious crusade of some, this hatred of the other: these things are not American ideals, they are fascist ones.
I do think it is harsh to posit straw man arguments about the Olympics to satisfy a need to belittle someone who has clearly lead with their feelings and their opinions. That is what the post origin asked for. How can they be wrong if they did just that. I don't recall anyone say they were going to 'act' on anything. Only what they 'feel' is the way things are or are happening. Please see the previous paragraph and note that you are no better than what you stand against if you can't respect someones admitted opinion.
In the spirit of the original thread, what do you all think about this?
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/greg-gutfield-to-open-a-gay-bar-next-to-ground-zero-mosque-to-cater-to-islamic-gay-men/
Since he has the investor money like the Mosque and the law on his side, then what opinions do you have on this?
Amen.
But wait...wasn't this you earlier?
Which one is it? You're glad I don't vote? Or I should because if I don't it's "shameful, ignorant and embarasing"?
I'm not going to get into the whole "don't read the news thing, and let others filter information me" argument.
I will say what I told a friend who is a rabid right-winger yesterday. I said that Muslims and Mexicans seem to be the last group that it is OK to hate and discriminate. Because of something some radical terrorists did, who just happened to be Muslim, Americans now feel free to discriminate against all Muslims.
Are there any churches near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing site? Yes, and Terry Nichols, and Timothy McVeigh were raised as Christians. But, if anyone tried to stop a church from being built saying it was offensive to the families of the victims they would be crucified in the press and general public opinion.
Look at what Hitler did in the name of Christianity. Do the millions of Jews who lost family (me among them) in the camps protest every church that was built anywhere near the sites? Hell no, because it wasn't Christianity at fault, it was a crazy little man who happened to be a Christian.
I think the whole argument is a form of covert racism. But again that is just my opinion. And yes, I read the news, and I have never missed a single chance to vote in almost 20 years. (Ugh, 20 years. That is horrifying.)