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NBR & Highly Controversial re: Mosque near Ground Zero
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Re: NBR & Highly Controversial re: Mosque near Ground Zero
Right. I was wrong about the church. The article I read about it (posted on another forum on here) was later in date than the one you sent. One thing out of all the arguments I made. Okay.
To address your comment on the FFFC post, I'll quote it here instead:
I will raise my daughter to be independent and to speak her own mind, as well as being well informed. However, just because I didn't have all my ducks in a row on a pregnancy forum and "lost my respectability" around here doesn't mean that I'm not going to be a strong role model for my daughter. Just because I don't "flip on NPR or open a paper" doesn't mean I'm not any of the things you think I should be exemplifying for my daughter further down the road.
Actually...my response to that question was asking questions of my own to you...the one who brought up the subject. Last I heard that was a perfectly acceptable way to find out information: asking questions. I suppose I could have left out that I don't read the news, but it would have been asked anyway. I also suppose that I could have gone and googled the events to seem like I already knew about them, but I figured "Why?" I'm not ashamed that I choose to censor my life. I'm not afraid to ask questions. I assume that the people that bring up the subjects and know more about them than I do will answer them to the best of their knowledge. I can usually figure out what is their opinion vs. what is the facts and then form my own opinions and gather more facts from there. You, being in the biology field, should be very familiar with that method. It's pretty close to the scientific method, only applied to news instead of experiments.
That was incredibly well said.
Agreed.
The scientific method doesn't really allow for making assumptions about what is fact and what is not. It requires gathering information from unbiased sources, evaluating its relationship to the hypothesis and synthesizing an interpretation. You are right that ideally a person's understanding of current events would follow a similar trajectory, but that's not really what you are doing. Obviously I am not going to change your mind in your approach to journalism, but I couldn't let that one go.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Do I really have to spell this out for you? I said it's "pretty close." Not exact. Not even "similar" but "pretty close." Yes, I'm fully aware there are differences. After all, my degree is only an Associates...
And actually, they're closer than you might think. Although with the scientific method you don't "make assumptions about what is fact and what is not", if the research question you're trying to answer has been researched before, often time you're simply trying to recreate the results from another researchers' experiments. With that, determining others' opinions from fact is much like putting aside another researchers' findings during an experiment and using the same research question.
I recall her saying she didn't read the news with regards to the Olympic bombing. That would be where you said that there are other churches (denominations mentioned) built in these locations. That was your point.
That sets up the straw man argument. It is something the is set up to 'knock down'. That usually leads to character defamation " do you have a degree " and last but not least, name calling.Of course, some went straight to the triple dog dare.
The statement she made about why she 'feels/thinks' that the mosque is 'in bad taste' is that the denomination that made themselves known to be the attackers is also the one that would profit directly from said attacks. Not the same 'people' since most died in the suicide attacks, but clearly the denomination of Al Quaeda is decidedly Muslim. The Mosque is a Muslim place of worship.
This does not correlate to any of the other churches defined in any of your discussion points. They are merely ex post facto. Your research is on these is clearly laid in discussing this on other boards where sensationalism is the norm. I believe you know that your facts have holes (your concern in this is completely argumentative) and you went after her 'lack of reading the news' and 'ignorance' and 'learned degree' as though she had posted that Muslims suck and they should just go home.
Yes not ALL Muslims bombed the buildings, ect ect. We get it. It does not change her thoughts on the matter. I can respect her opinion. (we all have one right) I do not think her intolerant by virtue that she continues to discuss this with us all although it is clear that some on here are hostile for some reason.
She made her feelings and thoughts pretty clear on the matter. They were somewhat simple. When you try and 'broaden her horizons' because she is clearly so ignorant she 'needs to read more news' you are being insulting.
That is why we are here now.
Simply put, there is no law broken, and the Mosque will go up. How do YOU all feel about it. Same as the rest of us. "I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it?" Do you have a real opinion that may actually make you seem like you may not actually care for the Mosque going up? Do you plan to attend said Mosque. Is anyone posting on here from NYC and actually able to benefit from this Mosque directly. THAT would be interesting.
Maybe you might attend that Mosque. I know I will check it out. It will be a tourist attraction to me.
Maybe that St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox church too. If it gets rebuilt.
I have a counter question, (and maybe I will learn something from this because I can't seem to find it out with cursory reading) would you care for this Mosque to be built if it were to need public funding?
Sigh.
Or a poster on TB?
It is your relative opinion that makes you think that an experimental vaccine in SA is 'good'.
I would not support any religious structure being built with public funds. Any.
You may interpret my exchange with Kimi as insulting - I hope she does not. I actually thought we were having a pretty decent conversation.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
There are some that would argue that you contribute to this as an infidel just because you live in America. You could hardly argue with them.
I don't think your point is clear about knowingly causing harm. Are you suggesting that she is causing harm by not reading all news sources cited in this thread? Maybe you can expound on that.
I think she means when I'm not afraid of how the animals I'm eating for dinner were treated (or the workers that have to butcher them). Or whether my clothes were made in sweat shops or my diamonds come from war-torn mine areas...
There isn't a real unbiased source here. And the synthesis really isn't available because her opinion is just her interpretation. Did you really think that you would try and change that?
She seems to be absorbing a lot from this thread though. I applaud her for that. And you all do seem to be slowing down on the name calling and shaking your fingers with 'how can you think that way' approach.
Maybe this thread is solid after all.
I only found it insulting when you insinuated that I wasn't being an intellectual role model for my daughter. I know that technically it was in another post, but it was also referenced and addressed here. I know that you were trying to "tread lightly" (as I think you put it), but there's no nice way to say "you need to think about the kind of role model you want to be for your daughter and is this the one you really want to be?"
I agree on the structure and public funds, and 'fair enough' on the second part.
Since I had the time...I went through all of these items on this list and this is what I found on just the first page when I Googled them to determine if they were really "big news" (added in line, in bold).
The point I'm trying to make is with some of these "big news" you mentioned, I could have missed some of them even if I did read the newspaper and watch the news.
I understand how that came off as insulting and I apologize - I am having a hard time expressing it - put it this way - it is easy for me to defend my choices and my actions as they related to ME. It has only been in the past few months that I have had to even consider how my actions could be construed by my child. Sometimes it makes me reconsider my approach. This is a good example - prior to having Sam I might have just ended this thread with a snide remark. Now I am more aware that if I have insulted someone, even indadvertantly, it is imperative that I own it.
Sorry I'm having a hard time getting to where I want to go - I did not mean to imply that you are a poor role model for your child.
edited again - my ability to express myself sucks right now.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
I can also easily defend my choices and my actions. When I stop and consider my lifestyle choices, I have very few regrets. I choose to gather my news this way and it extends into my lifestyle choices as well. I trust my husband to keep me up to date on the important things, I trust my family to do the same as well. They know I live a "sheltered' life, but I see that as a luxury. I don't have to prove myself to anyone. I don't live in a world where I constantly worry about being doubted or second-guessed and certainly not because I'm a woman. I am very comfortable in my life and I enjoy the pleasure of being able to completely depend on my husband for my lifestyle. Yes, I get an "allowance" if you want to call it that, but that's because he does all the finances. I shop for groceries online and he picks them up on his way home. I rarely go out of the house without him (of course, we do only have 1 car at the moment, but that's not the main reason...I have my chances, I just choose not to). I enjoy being a dependent. That being said, once things are said to me, my dependency only goes so far. I am still a strong woman and can make my own informed decisions, but why should I stress myself out about everything in the world when I have someone who truly cares about me that filters all the "crap" out for me? Am I oblivious? Yes! I love it! How many women can honestly say that they live in a bubble? It's a privilege. If I get "exposed" to something, I take it at its worth and make my own opinions based on that exposure but my childhood was rough enough that I like to think the rest of my life will be easy. This is one way I have an almost stress-free life.
Thank you for clearing that up.
I think most women on the bump bail out of discussions like this because they're afraid to back it up. When you truly believe in something and know there's nothing wrong with it, you can back it up to no end and never need to bail out. I see nothing wrong with my decision to not read or watch the news and I will defend it to anyone for however long they wish to argue (I am very hard headed and like to argue...not to mention it's a great outlet for my hormones, although I make sure to keep them in check most of the time).
I know! Why would you want to know about all those icky starving poor people and meanie genocidal dictators? Knowing that your chocolate bar was possibly made by child slaves just puts a frown on my face
So much better to just ignore it and pretend it's not happening! Why bother even knowing about the fact that women and children are being trafficked into this country for prostitution and slavery - depressing! It doesn't have anything to do with me, so why should I even think about it? I can just think about puppies and rainbows instead! Yay!
So if my chocolate bar was "possibly" made my child slaves...what good would knowing that do? Do you refuse to buy any chocolate bar that might be made by child slaves? Also, are you referring to a recent "big news" post or just making a general statement?
What am I expected to do about women and children being trafficked into the USA for prostitution and slavery? I don't use any prostitutes and most of my items come from large, well-known companies. I figure that if the company was using child slavery and it was well-known enough that major news companies were covering it (meaning I would have heard about it by reading a newspaper or watching a news channel), that the good ol' US of A would probably stop allowing those companies to continue producing their goods or allowing them to be sold in the US.
Unfortunately, that is not true at all. And I am far too tired to explain this to you.
However, I will give you some company track records to google.
Delmonte (bananas)
Nestle (chocolate, formula)
Nike, Adidas, the Gap (clothes)
It is precisely because there are so many willfully UNINFORMED people out there, who choose not to know, that many of the largest companies in the world have unethical practises, from child labour, to illegal treatment of workers, to deliberately fixing prices (and not in a good way). The U.S. gov't can't do anything when the products are made elsewhere, and chooses to do nothing when lobbyists pay them big $$$ to look the other way.
By the way...I Googled the chocolate bar issue. I see you are referencing Hershey's. I also see that the topic is not covered by one.single.large news source.
So since the issue here is that I don't read the newspaper or watch the news...even if I did those things, I still would not have heard about the possibility of child slaves being involved with my Hershey's chocolate.
::goes to find a Hershey's kiss::
The point is that you said yourself that you actively avoid any sort of news that you might find to be unpleasant and surround yourself only with "sunshine and flowers" and enjoy having a sheltered life.
I think this is really, really sad. You say you're a "strong woman" but there's nothing whatsoever strong about this (or about being a grown woman willingly dependent on another adult, but that's another issue entirely...).
Do you research the work ethics of every product that enters your house?
Also, I added notes about my Google search in line, in bold.
You're probably not aware of this (why would you be??) but the BBC - which stands for British Broadcasting Corporation - is in fact a major international news source.
They ran an extensive piece about the child labor in the chocolate trade a few months ago.
https://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8583000/8583499.stm
Can I just how proud I am of you for finally admitting the truth of the matter?
I find no shame or problem in "being a grown woman willingly dependent on another adult." I'm sorry if you have an issue with it, but that seems to be your own issue.
Furthermore, I did not say I "actively avoid any sort of news that I might find to be unpleasant." I simply stated that I trust my husband, family, and friends to be the ones that expose me to the "big news" that is happening. If they want to talk about child slavery at Nike, or blood splattered on the walls at some building in Cambodia, they will. However, I do not enjoy reading the newspaper or watching the news because I don't like hearing about those things, so I don't actively seek them out.
Sorry. It wasn't on the first page of Google which is what I would consider to be "big news" now. Also, if I watched the news I wouldn't be watching BBC news. I'd be watching local news (if we had TV, that is) and I wouldn't be reading BBC newspaper if I read the newspaper and such a paper existed.
The issue that started all of this nonsense is that I don't watch the news or read the newspaper. Not that I don't search all the internet news pages for news...so my argument still stands. If I read the newspaper or watched the news on TV, I would not have been exposed to the Hershey's story.
Huh? Truth about what? I think it's sad to be totally dependent on another person (not to mention kind of stupid - what would you do if that person were no longer there? Do you know what happened to women throughout history who were forced to be dependent on a man when they became widowed or abandoned by that man?). But again, that's a separate issue.
The issue at hand is that you seem to feel that ignoring anything unpleasant in the world simply so you can maintain your own sunshine and roses life is perfectly acceptable. I mean, who cares about child labor or anything like that? What matters is that YOU feel happy!
What can you do about human trafficking or child labor? You can refuse to buy from companies that exploit child labor. You can write your elected officials to ask them to pay more attention to these issues. You can vote for candidates who make these issues a priority. You can donate money to groups that assist the victims of these things. You can get involved and contribute to these organizations in other ways. You can make other people aware of these issues so that THEY can do these things.
There are lots of things you can do about the terrible things in the world, but only IF you are aware of them in the first place. It might make you less cheerful to be aware of how horrible life is for others in this world, but at least you can do your part to help, however small.
Oh lordy me! I just don't know what I would do if my husband were to pass away!! I mean...I certainly couldn't go back to working in a hospital or find any other means of work...I'm obviously an uneducated woman that can't function on a day to day basis simply because I allow (and yes, the key word is allow) my husband to take care of me and my daughter.
Again. I do not ignore the unpleasant happenings. If they come into my world, so be it. If my friends want to talk about it, okay...I just don't actively search for them.
I don't vote, so they're technically not my elected officials. I don't vote. I have children that I'd rather take care of and savings to keep up so that my children can go to college if they so desire. I have children of my own so I don't think I would enjoy taking time away from my children to go help other children (not in this respect anyway. There are things I'm passionate about, but this just isn't one of them). You mean sort of like you're doing? You're doing a bang-up job...almost getting me to reconsider...sort of like those heavy-handed Christians that preach "It's our way or death you sinners!"
I prefer to make a difference in my biosphere. I like to see the changes I make, that's just me. I'm not a big activist. Some people are born that way. I wasn't. If I'm going to volunteer, it will be for a local community service. As far as I know, there are no child slavery or smuggled women and children support shelters where I live. I make a difference in the world around me, just not by reading up on the news and not a world-wide effect. My effect is more localized. I'm okay with that.I can't even understand what you're saying anymore except that you don't care about any children except your own and you really couldn't care less if other people's children are forced into prostitution at the age of 7.
I'm not even trying to convince or persuade you of anything because it's clearly just not your personality to care about anything outside of your tiny personal bubble. I'm just expressing my own bewilderment and frankly, a bit of revulsion at your attitude.
Yes they are. They are YOUR representatives. You just don't care to have a say in who they are. Which I actually appreciate since you also don't care to educate yourself about anything.
You're absolutely right. I don't care to educate myself about ANYthing.
And what I was saying in the previous post is that my resources are limited because I have my own children and I choose to save my money for my own children (so I don't donate money to charities) and at the moment I don't have the time or energy to go out and volunteer for any of these organizations you said I could "become involved with" since if I left my child I'd be losing precious moments with her that I simply cannot get back. Yes, I care that 7 yr old girls are getting forced into prostitution. I'm just not an activist. That's not who I am.
Okay. If that's all you're saying then fine. I accept that you're bewildered and repulsed by me...but why add in all the extra crap about what I can do to change the world if you're not trying to convince me of anything? In case you haven't noticed, when people don't argue but simply state their opinions of me, I don't argue back...there's no arguing how someone feels about me. Plain and simple.
I just want to say that you can make a difference that affects your family with very simple things.
An example:
Dairy cows used to be given rBST to boost milk production. The hormones were passed through the cow's milk and people were drinking it up. The dairy producers said that it was fine. However, a small group of vocal people started protesting. One thing lead to another and word got out. It was picked up by the news media, and then consumers started requesting rBST-free milk. When Walmart (of all places) noticed the buying trend and it affected their bottom line, they refused to purchase the tainted milk or milk from treated cows. That one thing changed the entire dairy industry across the planet. Because a few people started looking at something that wasn't all puppies and rainbows the milk you serve your family is safer. (however, unless you drink organic, it isn't completely safe.)
The attitude that one person can't make a difference is so wrong. You can make an enormous impact, and hopefully leave the planet that much better for your children that you love.
I'm not the most eloquent tonight, but I'm trying.
I never said one person can't make a difference. I do my part to make impacts, but find it highly amusing that because I don't keep up with the top news I'm obviously a bad person and don't give a r@t's ass about anyone else or anything else...OH and I'm uneducated.
Like I stated previously. I have done volunteer work, I've donated items to the VFW and a woman my mom knows that gives out goods to the people in the ghetto she lives in that needs them, I cloth diaper. I do things to make a difference in the world I'm leaving for my children. Why am I such a bad person because I don't keep up with the news?