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Adoption
Is it unreasonable to expect generous birthmother expenses? (long)
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Re: Is it unreasonable to expect generous birthmother expenses? (long)
Totally lurking, and I never even post on the boards, but there are just a few things I am concerned/curious about your possible logic.
Have you considered at all that this child will be biologically yours and may at some point seek you out for answers? Even if that is an impossibility, are you comfortable saying (if only hypothetically in your own mind)
"I got pregnant with you specifically to have the kind of pregnancy I always wanted to have, without becoming a parent?" "I loved the idea of having a relaxing, cute nine months without actually wanting you?"
You may justify it by using the answer "I really wanted a family without the ability to have a child to love you and raise you, I wanted to be as happy as possible so you would be healthy when you went to that family"
But the takeaway is still the same: I made you specifically to give you away, yes for your adoptive family's benefit, but also for my own.
I know all adoptive families find ways to cope and adapt and get through some of the tougher parts of how/if they will address these issues with situations that seem much more difficult than the one you proposed. And the children do grow up happy, loved, and well adjusted. BUT I am just saying that when I put myself in your shoes and ask myself those same hypothetical questions, I don't feel good about it. I don't feel selfless. Maybe if I were doing it for someone I knew and loved, but then because I was trying to give a gift to them, I wouldn't want a penny over what is necessary.
That is the nature of intentional gifts, you don't want anything "extra" in return. No matter how small. It sounds more like you are bartering with a baby, even if that isn't what you may be thinking.
You also specifically mention in your original post you strong desire to experience the type of pregnancy you've always wanted. To finally wear a cute maternity dress. You may not be completely in it for your own gain, but it is part of your motivation and this is A HUMAN LIFE. The desire to look cute and have extra money of your own to improve your lifestyle is not the right motivation to create a human being. I know again, you will rebutt with your desire to give a "gift", but read your first post...that desire does not come across as pure. It reads like a trade: I give gift of baby...in return I get the pregnancy I deserve. It just doesn't sit well with me, this doesn't seem like a reason to intentionally bring a child into the world.
You may be much more pure in your desire than I read. I don't know you, and it may be more about what you are giving than receiving, but you keep proposing things like clothes and gym memberships and what you deserve out of this and it doesn't feel right to me. Surrogacy could be a better option for you, perhaps even using the couple's embryo rather than your own. If you search your soul and really feel that this will be a good life choice, best of luck to you.
Regarding pregnancy over 40. yes it is possible. Yes many women have healthy pregnancies at that age. However, just a quick google search will provide you with many statistics regarding miscarriage, high blood pressure, increased rate of placental abruption. No, not a guarantee, but enough of an increased risk to have many OBs consider it immediately high risk. A high risk pregnancy can be very different from the ideal you are imagining, and possibly more expensive than you are anticipating. Point blank, your body will handle it differently than it did when you were younger. Is it worth it for cute maternity clothes and a lighter workload?
Please think very hard about this from every angle before you commit to anything. I don't think you are a bad person, but it isn't as simple as you want it to be either.
Thanks ladies for allowing me to respond on your board.
A surrogate is hired to do a job. A birth mom is not. It is 100% fine to expect any pregnancy related expenses to be covered. It is NOT fine to expect anything else to be covered.
To be honest, I do have an issue with your bringing a child into the world just so that you can allow someone else to adopt him or her. It just doesn't seem right. I think what is rubbing me the wrong way is the fact that you seem to just be doing this so you can have a "do-over." So you can have a great pregnancy experience and not be stressed about money, without any of the added complications of having to actually, I don't know, RAISE THE BABY. It's just weird. Carrying a baby for someone else is not the same thing as intentionally conceiving a child and then choosing someone else to parent them. It does seem kind of like buying a baby, because a) only couples who can afford to do this would be selected by you (which isn't cool, since so many couples have totally stretched themselves financially to be able to afford the adoption fees in the first place). Surrogacy is NOT buying a baby because the baby *IS* the biological child of the parents already. And adoption is not buying a baby because the fees are paid to the agencies--the birth parents aren't paying the bio-parents.
I've already shared my concerns about a child processing that he/she was conceived for an adoption (why is this different than a surrogacy??? well, because they would be hard pressed to find peers that had similar stories). So I'll save my ethical concerns for later.... or never.
But revisiting your expenses.... are you saying that you would seek $5000 total?? If so, you are well within the mens of most situations we looked at. FWIW- BM2 was compensated nearly twice that... but she documented where the need was.... and that could be your challenge. If you are serious about this and not stirring up drama (don't be offended.... it happens on boards like this regularly... so we are always skeptical over strangers posting odd stories... no offense meant).... if you are serious, seek an adoption attorney's opinion w/your actual expenses in hand. She is the best person to advice if this is even legal. Also be prepared for some parents to give you a side-eye because this is highly unusual.
"It really seems like the biggest issue many of you have is that I would choose to give away my own biological child. You've tried so hard for so long to have your own and you don't understand or maybe even resent someone who can get pregnant and then give it up. You want to believe in your mind that all BMs are in desperate circumstances and would NEVER give up their child if they had another choice. This "fits" better with your mindset that all women want to be mothers or have large familes. Just because YOU want a large family does not mean all women do, or even should. "
PS- This is a really harsh judgement of those on this board. I know several women that did not spend years trying to have a bio child... they were called the this direction on their own. Our journey, like your journey, is unique.
And as for how I see birth moms, I do not think of them as desperate or having desperate circumstances... that couldn't be farther from the truth in many instances... and most of us have seen it. My birth moms COULD HAVE parented. They did not GIVE UP children. They made logical plans that were well thought out. On this board, we have deep respect and affection for women faced with difficult choices As much as you are feeling judged by others in these posts,
I felt judged too. If your intentions are good, please seek legal counsel.... clearly emotions are high here and there won't be anything good that comes from going back and forth. I thikn you received some generous advice and insight. Take it and run.... and PS- stop using the word "given up".... adoptive kids never need to feel like they were given up.... rather loving choices were made that united them with PAPs.
Good luck to you.
It took me reading this entire thread to sort out what I thought of the original post. Something about the concept of the "do over" seemed familiar.
OP, you sound exactly like one of the Knot posters who had a small courthouse wedding, but now wants a huge blow-out wedding with all of the bells and whistles, even though they're already married.
The thing that bothers me most your post is the frequent use of the word "generous". Your tone of your stress free life, your enjoyment of the pregnancy, etc, etc...sends (at least to me) a very selfish tone, and I would NEVER consider you for your "services". I would be terrified that everytime you called it would be for more money and sob stories and basically using the baby as levergae.
Quite frankly you are an insult to my journey, and I am disgusted that you would seek to profit generously at the emtional and monetary expense of others.
Just know, I retyped this several times out of respect for this board. The use of the word disgust is me being respectful, kwim?
*Lurking*
With a surrogate, there would be a contract involved stating, from the get-go, that the APs are the parents and that you have no claim on the child. Because the law will side with the APs should you change your mind, you could ask for the things you stated in a contract. There is NO WAY you can back out and decide to parent. With adoption, the BM can back out and decide to parent after giving birth. How devastating would it be to think that you've paid out all this money for your BM and when the big day arrives, she up and takes your baby? Not saying you would do this, but it's a huge difference for me.
The biggest issue I personally have with this comes from my experience with miscarriage. You say you want your APs to help with expenses from day 1. Well, what if you miscarry at 10 weeks? You've then had 8 weeks of financial assistance from these people and, for reasons beyond your control, you've benefitted from the situation and can't deliver on your end. That's probably why laws dictate you can only receive financial assistance as a BM in the last trimester. By then, even if the baby is delivered early, it would most likely survive and the APs would have a baby to take home.
If this is a serious post, perhaps you should try to enter into a legal contract with an infertile couple, use the BFs sperm and go from there. It might look enticing if you're not asking for payment, only living expenses/maternity clothes/emergency expenses. But you have to understand that just because you get pregnant doesn't mean you will STAY pregnant and that makes what you're asking for seem greedy. I'm pretty sure that if a suromom doesn't deliver a baby, she doesn't get paid. Whereas you're asking for assistance up front for a pregnancy that might not survive.
Are you a bad person for not wanting to suffer while pregnant? No. No one WANTS to worry about all the extra expenses while pregnant. Even myself, who planned my pregnancy (minus the twins part) wished that the financial burden could be lifted. It's one of those things you can't escape. Fertile couples are relieved of their financial burden because of pre-planning, I don't see why someone getting pregnant for "noble" reasons should be.
The sole purpose of surrogacy is to help a family have a child. The sole purpose of adoption is to help a child have a family. It's that simple.
OMG THIS. THIS is why I made an adoption plan. So my LO would have a healthy, nurturing family. THIS THIS THIS. THIS x1000.
Application approved Dec '11
Mar '12: Homestudy interrupted by change in Uganda requirements - where do we go from here?
After searching and searching, back with Uganda but with our homestudy agency's program.
Homestudy complete July 19
USCIS I-600A submitted July 20. Biometrics appointments arrived Aug 17; fingerprinted Aug 21; 171H received Sept 25th. On the wait list Oct 1st: #18. By Jan 25th, we're #13!
Come home, baby A!
Here's my $.02, FWIW: Your OP was probably insulting to a lot of the adoptive moms on here (myself included) for a few reasons. First, you state that you want to be able to enjoy your pregnancy, which you evidently have not in the past because of financial instability. You want to feel "like a goddess" and be able to enjoy cute maternity clothes. Many of the women who adopt have had multiple miscarriages, and could never enjoy a pregnancy because they could never be sure if they'd be able to sustain it. Others are unable to get pregnant at all. So you're unlikely to find a great deal of sympathy for your desire to have a comfortable pregnancy experience, funded by someone else who cannot have a pregnancy experience at all.
Second, you suggest that if we can't afford generous birthmom expenses, somehow that diminishes our ability to parent. I find this HORRIBLY offensive. Those of us who aren't rich have made incredible financial sacrifices to become parents through adoption, and that shows that even before we begin parenting, we're putting the baby first, a very positive sign of being a good parent.
Your altruistic desire to provide a child to an infertile family is overshadowed by your expectations of what you should receive in return. I agree with the PP that suggest that you look toward private surrogacy.
Like
Yup.
17 posts (which seem to all be in this post) and saying she wants to help a couple by letting them help her "do it the right way" and "feel like a goddess" in "cute maternity clothes".
This is the post selfish post (made up or real) that I've ever read.
wife to joe 2.2.08. mama to noah 9.5.09.
After multiple m/c's, a MTHFR diagnosis and the Lord calling both of our hearts in the same direction, we're adopting!
theluckiest
I'm confused... why don't you just DO the surrogacy route?
Unless, of course, you are planning on putting the baby up for adopting... stringing the AP along for the ride, getting cute maternity clothes and bills paid for. and then at the last minute deciding to keep the baby...
Malakai - 8.3.09
Ezra - 12.1.11 ASD
While your post makes clear that to you there is no difference in surrogacy and adoption, I need to remind you that to the courts, there is a huge difference.
I am sorry that the posts have gotten very emotional and therefore attacking. I understand that you are a birth-mom and would think that you wouldn't be surprised by what just happened here, but I think it is sometimes difficult to see the other side.
I just wanted to take a minute to explain to you what I know from my state and my adoption agency. A reason why expenses are so limited for adoption is actually to protect birth mothers. Think about it, the child she is bearing is 100% her child (and of course the birth father's). I know you say it wouldn't be in your mind, but for a judge it is your child no matter what you say. It is biologically related to you and the birth father. (By the way I appreciate that someone already discussed that difficult situation, so I won't go into that anymore.)
I understand that you wouldn't see it as selling your baby, but in my state, the courts would, and therefore compensation for BMs is very limited. While in some states BFs can relinquish their rights before birth, BMs can't do that anywhere. Legally you have to wait the period your state allots, before you can do that.
Surrogacy is very different! As a surrogate you are in most states I know of not allowed to be biologically related to the child. That also means, that you have no legal rights to keep this child after birth. Because of that, compensations are normal and allowed by the courts. You are legally pregnant with someone elses child, which means they can take care of you.
I hope that you understand this post the right way. I was just trying to get away from the emotional level and back to the analytic side of things. When you first posted your question, it seemed like that's what you were looking for. Looking at both options I agree with the earlier posts, that you really need to look into private surrogacy.
As for me, DH and I have been waiting to adopt for 6 months, and have been trying to have a child for the last 5 years. I would not be able to handle the situation you described well. It wouldn't really matter to me that you say it's ok. I would always feel like I bought my baby from you. Sadly that's how my mind would work. I am much more comfortable with paying my agency and having the case workers help my birth mom. This way she's not expected to give her child to me, if she should change her mind.
People that don't deal with IF can't understand the emotional pain that it causes. Just like I would never say to a woman who is accidentally pregnant and doesn't know what to do next that I understand what she is going through. The topic of adoption is very emotional, so please cut the ladies on this forum some slack and be gracious in extending forgiveness for their reaction to your post.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors and pray that God leads you to the couple that will be blessed with the child you bear for them.
First off, I only read the first page of replies before I made my previous post, but I did have to responde to what you just said here. You complained that people where being hurtful and hostile in their responses, yet what you posted there is about the most hurtful thing you could tell an adoptive mother.
I do believe you owe this board an apology and then you need to leave!
Second, as I tried to explain to you in nicer words before, what you are trying to do is not considered legal. It doesn't matter what you think in this case, it matters what the law says.
Man, I wish I was around when this post was in full swing. I have many thoughts about this, some of which have already been discussed.
1. As pp said, in surrogacy, a contract is in place from the beginning. The woman carrying the pregnancy does not have any rights to the child. Period. She cannot in any way legally keep the baby. That is a huge, glaring difference from how an adoption works, in which no agreement is binding until the court rules the adoption finalized. That usually takes a minimum of months after birth. As such, payments to the birthmother can be seen as coercion, and are not permitted. I would not feel comfortable giving large sums of money to a woman who in hopes that she would maintain her agreement to terminate her parental rights and not contest the adoption of her baby, which is what you are talking about here.
2. You seem opposed to using the intended father's sperm to get pregnant. As a result, whoever the birthfather would be would have rights to the child as well. While you might be okay with this plan, you cannot guarantee that the biological father would be as well. While he might be okay with the idea at first, he might change his mind as the pregnancy continues and he realizes that his child will be living in the world without him. And he'll have every right to step forward and decide that he wants to parent this child, and the expectant adoptive parents would be out of luck. In a surrogacy, this wouldn't be an issue.
3. In all adoptions, there is loss. No matter how wonderful a life the child has, he/she will experience loss when he/she realizes the full import of what it means not to be raised by one's biological parents. In surrogacy, this is minimized, I imagine, by the fact that one parent is often the child's biological parent and the child was conceives with the purpose of being raised by the adoptive parents. In your situation, the child's reality would be that you conceived him/her so that you could have the pregnancy you wanted, without having to parent the child (thereby allowing someone else that privilege). No matter how you couch it, I can assure you that the child will at times only internalize that his/her biological mother did not want to raise him/her even though she wanted to carry him/her. How's that for crushing?
4. This one's where I get emotional and inflammatory: I don't begrudge anyone who wants to adopt a baby, and I know that unfortunately, there are many prospective adoptive parents who have to wait a long time until the right birth family picks them. However, as a person who went out of her way to adopt children who needed and were waiting for families, I find the idea of going out of your way to create a life without knowing in advance that you or the intended parents (in a contracted surrogacy agreement) are willing and wanting to raise the child to be incredibly unethical, distasteful, and the worst kind of profiteering possible. This is a PERSON of whom you are talking about giving life without assuring for his or her most basic needs. There are enough parentless children in the world desperate for families, and here you are, wanting to add that possible outcome for another poor, helpless child. You can't know how low that makes my opinion of you.
I'm a total dirty lurker, but I had to comment on this one ... sorry I'm late to the "party" ...
A very good friend of mine was a surrogate. She had 2 children of her own. She was healthy and able to carry a child. She did it because she wanted to give a couple who had exhausted all other efforts the child they so desperately wanted. She has no biological connection to the child. An egg donor was used. The father's sperm was used. She was not compensated unreasonably. She did not have a "huge payout." Her vet bills were not covered.
What "extras" were paid .. they hired someone to clean her house and mow her lawn. Not because she asked. Not because she wanted to "enjoy" this pregnancy. They did it because as the parents of the child they didn't want the child exposed to any chemicals, etc. Did they send her money for maternity clothes? I honestly don't know but I'm pretty sure not, she had clothes from her previous two pregnancies.
Her intentions were good ... she wanted to provide a gift for someone else. She wasn't looking to have the pregnancy she always dreamed of but never had. She wasn't looking to be generously compensated. She wasn't looking for someone to pick up any additional expenses she might normally incur.
What would you do now if your dog got sick or your HVAC went out? You'd find a way to pay for it, right? So why should the intended parents be asked to pay for this just because you're pregnant??
I'm a mom, I was able to finally conceive my beautiful son with the help of IVF. I had an uneventful pregnancy. And I'm highly disturbed by your post. I agree with the previous posters who have stated that while you may think you are doing it to benefit a couple who can't have a child, the reality is that you sound very ME, ME, ME.
I truly hope that you have listened to what these wise ladies have said in regards to their feelings on this subject. If you truly want to give this gift to another couple, do it in a legal manner. Whether you see a difference in adoption versus surrogacy or not (you may think it's just semantics), there is one and what you are describing is not adoption. Do it the right way, but I suspect you'll be waiting a long time to find a family who is willing to meet your demands.
Our Journey to Brenden
IVF #1: 4/11(Follistim/Menopur/Ganirelix) 10 retrieved/8 mature and all 8 fertilized / 2 embies transferred ... nothing to freeze Beta 5/10 = BFN
IVF Take 2 Long Lupron July 2011
ER 7/3/11 (our 6th anniversary) - 8 retrieved/7 mature/fert ....ET 7/6/11 - 2 beautiful grade A 8 cell embryos
Beta 7/18/11 - 149!!! Beta 7/21/11 - 311 Beta 7/28/11 - 2,000 8/5/11 - Empty Sac 8/8/11 - There's a yolk sac and maybe a heartbeat 8/12/11 - Fetal pole, yolk sac, heartbeat 8/18/11 - Baby looks GREAT!
3 babies waiting on ice
From the International Adoption perspective, this is exactly one of the behaviors (women intentionally becoming pregnant with the intent to place the child for adoption) that led to the closure of Guatemala's IA program. Under The Hague conventions for IA, it would be illegal.
As adoptive parents, we (and I use the collective WE) are not infrequently accused of buying babies. And maybe there's some truth to that in some situations. Let's face it--there is both a lot of money and a lot of emotion involved with adoption. Where these 2 factors come together, the potential for abuse exists.
For those of us who strongly believe that adoption must be handled with the utmost scruples, your ill-conceived plan is not only offensive, but also in direct conflict with the types of adoption we support.
I know you aren't *trying* to offend anyone, but you have. Too many of us on this board would love to be pg before we die and that will never happen. Adoption is the only way we a majority of us will become mothers and your words make me feel lesser of a person because you want to do this for yourself more than anyone else (whether you admit it or not). You wanted a debate and got one, so don't get snippy when people don't agree with you, your thoughts and/or your responses.
This whole post just has me feeling dirty - like I need to take a shower for you. I'm outta here . . . .
After 5.5 years of loss, heartbreak, and empty arms, our dreams were fulfilled through the beautiful, selfless gift of adoption. We are amazingly blessed!
Blog About Us | Blog About RPL/IF/Adoption
Here you go: 1-800-sell-my-baby.
Thats the number to the black market for you. I hear they pay well. :-|
Maybe im emotional or something but i found this to be really inconsiderate of you! You have had a child you raised, an abortion and an adoption already. Your 41 and you havent learned that babies are people with feeling and hearts and i think its outrageous your asking for money. im 16 weeks pregnant and looking into adoption because i cant take care of myself i dont have basic necessities like a bed or food for crying out loud and here you are saying you own a home and a car and would like tolive more "comfortably" im sure with your perseverance you will find an agency or surrogacy that works in your favor.
as a suggestion i hope you also look into counseling and possibly a support group as well. I hope things work out for the child if you do get pregnant and you are in my thoughts and prayers!