It could totally be that. However, I got the feeling it was more like "im not promising anything because I am going to treat you in the same methodic fashion i treat all my patients and hope that you will be so preoccupied you wont notice." I am asking for special treatment, to go against what these doctors would normally do...I know this...and all I am asking is if in any circumstance, even it its just the best case scenario, will I be able to have this go down how I want it to? Is it at all possible or likely? and a simple "we will see" just isn't cutting it for me.
If you know you're asking for special treatment and you're not getting what you want, well...the only thing I can say is toughshit. Lots of women make birth plans---detailed discriptions of how they want their labor to go, and sometimes that goes out the effing window. If you are not providing a doctor with a better rational for not wanting a VE than it gives you the heebie-jeebies and makes you uncomfortable, then what do you really expect? Woman-Up lady; put your big girl pants on. Next doctor you ask, preface it by saying you want a yes or no answer. I've got five bucks on them not telling you what you want to hear.
Having a baby isn't Burger King. You can't always have it your way.
Really? since I am okay with having sex with my fiancee I should be okay with all vagina related issues? That's a ridiculous mentality. but thanks for being judgmental and completely not helpful!
In my opinion, yes, you should be ok with vagina-related issues if you're going to be sexually active. It's part of the territory and that's not a ridculous mentality. I see no reason why any doctor should give you what you want if they don't feel like they have all of the information they need in order to know that it's medically necessary. This is just bizarre. It's like asking for antibiotics without letting a doctor check if you have strep throat first, or saying you need vicodin for a kidney stone you're pretty sure you have but you're not going to let them verify.
By the way, you are SO lucky you're not having multiples or are high risk. Doctors are in my vag EVERY WEEK. And I absolutely want them to do it- for my safety and the babies' safety.
If it seriously impeded them from safely giving me an epidural in their professional opinion...and didn't just make them work a little harder to assess where I am at then of course Ill allow it to be done.but if it is just easier, quicker, and procedure then I am not all for it as it causes a great amount of distress and pain for me which we all know is not good for a laboring woman and child. I would have to be truly convinced that they were worried about giving me medication because they truly could not figure out what point I was at. I am just trying to figure out if it is unnecessary in the way that I've found pelvic exams and paps to be. I am glad you are okay with getting paps and VEs done...truly wish I could be okay with it too but I am not and can't be so please do not tell me to be okay with something just because I chose to indulge in the incredibly human act of making love to my fiancee.
Yes, because the vaginal check is going to be the worse part of labor. You need to ask your freaking doctor what their policy is, not a bunch of internet strangers.
You have every right to refuse any procedures that are offered to you, however the hospital also has a right to refuse to give you the epidural if you do not comply with their procedures. While I think a lot of hospital protocol is silly, I do think if you agree to a medical intervention such as this, you also need to follow the proper protocol suggested for the medial procedure. Changing the method of how the drug is intended to be used can result in not so hot outcomes for the mother and baby.
Have you considered going naturally? There are plenty of MW who would agree to no internals unless absolutely necessary.
This. If you don't want a VE, don't get one. They can't pin you down and force themselves on you - if you don't consent, that's it and they can't deny care to a woman in active labor. However, they're not required to provide you drugs, especially if that might endanger yourself or your child.
I'm trying to be helpful: have you read up on natural birth? Refusing, or limiting, VE checks is much more standard for natural births and it's less of an issue for the practitioner because you'll know when you're ready to push. Good luck!
You say you want an epidural immediately - Immediately upon what? you thinking you are in labor? How do you know you are really in labor?
As for the legitimacy of pap screening, could you please direct me to the studies that call it into question? I work at a cancer research center and have never heard a single researcher or doctor who is anything but supportive of them. This might be of interest:
Detection of cervical cancer in its earliest stages is lifesaving, as survival of cancer of the cervix uteri depends heavily on stage at diagnosis. Although 92 percent of women will survive 5 years when the cancer is localized, only 13 percent will survive distant disease.24Introduction of screening programs to populations na?ve to screening reduces cervical cancer rates by 60-90 percent within 3 years of implementation.25,26 This reduction of mortality and morbidity with introduction of the Pap test is consistent and dramatic across populations. Although no prospective trial of Pap screening has ever been conducted, correlational studies of cervical cancer trends in countries in North America and Europe demonstrate dramatic reductions in incidence of invasive cervical cancer and a 20-60 percent reduction in cervical cancer mortality.
I can't answer your question, but would love to hear more about what you have heard about pap screening being unnecessary and not medically useful.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
Oh honey if you think a pap smear is torture, you really should NOT be going through labor and delivery.
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
Because there are genuine reasons why vaginal checks are necessary during L&D...and its not just because "doctors are lazy". They are for the safety of you and your child. In our sue-happy society, doctors have to protect their backs. So good luck finding a doctor who is wiling to give you serious drugs without first checking to make sure you are in active labor and at the safe point to administer it. And honestly, if someone sticking a few fingers up there is causing you so much distress, what were you expecting out of the birth process. It's no walk in the park.
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You're NOT ok with basic vaginal exams to determine the status of your cervix and child, a practice that is drug free and aside from the akward factor is minimally invasive - but you're OK with having a drug injected into your spinal column to make you essentially temporarily paralyzed in the lower half of your body so that you do not have to feel the pain of birth...?
Do I have that right?
If so - I'm not touching this conversation with a ten foot pole.
This a million times over. It is exactly what I was thinking.
Soon to be Big Sister Eowyn - DOB February 2012
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
I think there's more to this than you may be letting on but that is your own story. I've never found a routine pap to be torturous. Inconvenient and uncomfortable, maybe. But also quick and an important part of women's health. Many STI's and infections do not exhibit symptoms in women but paps and evaluations/examinations find them. So your opinion about asympomatic women is very off.
That being said I was not checked "routinely" through the last month of my pregnancy. I was checked several times during labour by my midwives and then an OB who determined through this examination that the baby was in a bad position and quickly had to be removed.
It is ok to be uncomfortable about the examinations but to turn that discomfort into a sweeping generalization that flies in the face of modern medicine and women's health publications is outrageous and that is why you are receiving incredulous feedback. I know that personally I'm really hoping you're able to find someone to deal with these hang ups before they become dangerous or too hard for you to deal with during labour.
I really think that your best option would be a MW and deliver at home. That way you would not have to deal with hospital policies that you are not so keen on. There are other medications out there that will "take the edge off" but still allow you to feel when it is time to push.
As far as the "hostility" goes, your timing and join date could not be crappier. You did not actually introduce yourself, you just showed up and started posting about how you believe 'x', 'y' & 'z' but then asked us about 'b'. All the while you are hell bent on getting a bunch of people who don't know you from a snowypumpkinqueen to only talk about 'b'. Maybe trying to dictate what and how the rest of us respond is what is not going over so well.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
Really? since I am okay with having sex with my fiancee I should be okay with all vagina related issues? That's a ridiculous mentality. but thanks for being judgmental and completely not helpful!
In my opinion, yes, you should be ok with vagina-related issues if you're going to be sexually active. It's part of the territory and that's not a ridculous mentality. I see no reason why any doctor should give you what you want if they don't feel like they have all of the information they need in order to know that it's medically necessary. This is just bizarre. It's like asking for antibiotics without letting a doctor check if you have strep throat first, or saying you need vicodin for a kidney stone you're pretty sure you have but you're not going to let them verify.
By the way, you are SO lucky you're not having multiples or are high risk. Doctors are in my vag EVERY WEEK. And I absolutely want them to do it- for my safety and the babies' safety.
If it seriously impeded them from safely giving me an epidural in their professional opinion...and didn't just make them work a little harder to assess where I am at then of course Ill allow it to be done.but if it is just easier, quicker, and procedure then I am not all for it as it causes a great amount of distress and pain for me which we all know is not good for a laboring woman and child. I would have to be truly convinced that they were worried about giving me medication because they truly could not figure out what point I was at. I am just trying to figure out if it is unnecessary in the way that I've found pelvic exams and paps to be. I am glad you are okay with getting paps and VEs done...truly wish I could be okay with it too but I am not and can't be so please do not tell me to be okay with something just because I chose to indulge in the incredibly human act of making love to my fiancee.
Yes, because the vaginal check is going to be the worse part of labor. You need to ask your freaking doctor what their policy is, not a bunch of internet strangers.
For many people it is the worst part of labor.
I've never even heard a single complaint about vag checks until your crazy sauce showed up.
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An honest suggestion...pick up Natural Hospital Birth, by Cynthia Gabriel tonight. Thought an Epi wouldn't be a natural birth, it addresses cervical checks. This may help you in your decision.
Wow, thanks a real suggestion without judgement or hysterics. Thanks!
REALLY?! DO you READ all of the posts!? HALF of these women are actually giving you some DAMN good advice...GO TO THE NATURAL BIRTHS BOARD...They may be "SMARTER" than US, SNARKY B!tches. Yes. that's a great idea...GO OVER THERE, some of us did have a decent response...next time read everything and maybe use your adult brain and not your teenage one when responding...UGH i'm SO over this SHiz today!
I actually didn't get a chance to read all - but surly less than half have given valuable input. In any case thanks for validating my hysterics claim...sounds like you are the over emotional one.
You know what, yes, today I MAY be over emotional, but DO NOT come on to our board, make this an INTRODUCTION post and then post something that isn't even related to an introduction...its not even something any of us can help you with...CLEARLY, and if you had taken the advice given and gone to the right board, all this drama would have not happened, but since you feel the need to call me out on my emotions, i will call you out on your post and comment.
I am seriously SICK of your snide remarks to the people that are "bashing" you...which most are not, the ones that are, well they clearly feel the same way I do, and if this annoys you so much, then move along to one of your many "shortcuts" maybe they will help you, especially the C-Section one, oh or idk maybe the 0-6, or 6-12 month boards. You clearly have no IDEA what this place is about, so before you post something next time, think about it and post it on the board that best fits that POST. Then you will skip all of this so called "unwanted" drama. Get off our board, if you have nothing better to do than be like this. i'm over it!!
hahaha okay ill just let everyone "Bash" me as you put it that's what I should do since I am new here and asked a question you couldn't answer... I didn't realize it was the introduction posts and no I don't know anything about this site - how is that an insult? making fun of my shortcuts? haha really? I just had an offbeat question that made a lot of people angry/uncomfortable/confused and some women lashed out...i totally didn't expect it...and I don't think I deserved it.
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
Oh honey if you think a pap smear is torture, you really should NOT be going through labor and delivery.
This. A five-minute pap exam is small beans compared to a baby coming out of your vag. I also have a hard time believing you, OP, have no problem getting dicked-down on a regular basis but a pap smear is something you find 'torture.'
I think this chick is MUDdy as all hayle but I'll still play along for the entertainment.
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I'm just speechless about a pap being considered "torture." There are plenty of things in life that aren't fun, but we do them because it's part of being an adult.
i wish i could be joking but my dad is the music teacher at a church so he owuld be mad. we had sex, all the time how bad i know but we dont want to wait and he said GREAT OH KAY! and I was really feeling the wets? down there- too embarsed to say- but he acted like man.
Really? since I am okay with having sex with my fiancee I should be okay with all vagina related issues? That's a ridiculous mentality. but thanks for being judgmental and completely not helpful!
In my opinion, yes, you should be ok with vagina-related issues if you're going to be sexually active. It's part of the territory and that's not a ridculous mentality. I see no reason why any doctor should give you what you want if they don't feel like they have all of the information they need in order to know that it's medically necessary. This is just bizarre. It's like asking for antibiotics without letting a doctor check if you have strep throat first, or saying you need vicodin for a kidney stone you're pretty sure you have but you're not going to let them verify.
By the way, you are SO lucky you're not having multiples or are high risk. Doctors are in my vag EVERY WEEK. And I absolutely want them to do it- for my safety and the babies' safety.
If it seriously impeded them from safely giving me an epidural in their professional opinion...and didn't just make them work a little harder to assess where I am at then of course Ill allow it to be done.but if it is just easier, quicker, and procedure then I am not all for it as it causes a great amount of distress and pain for me which we all know is not good for a laboring woman and child. I would have to be truly convinced that they were worried about giving me medication because they truly could not figure out what point I was at. I am just trying to figure out if it is unnecessary in the way that I've found pelvic exams and paps to be. I am glad you are okay with getting paps and VEs done...truly wish I could be okay with it too but I am not and can't be so please do not tell me to be okay with something just because I chose to indulge in the incredibly human act of making love to my fiancee.
Yes, because the vaginal check is going to be the worse part of labor. You need to ask your freaking doctor what their policy is, not a bunch of internet strangers.
For many people it is the worst part of labor.
Oh I don't believe that for a second. And I wasn't at all hostile I just don't understand how you can go from saying you believe that something is unnecessary to saying that is causes you distress. Labor is a messy thing and having a doctor do a vaginal exam isn't even close to the worst part!
i wish i could be joking but my dad is the music teacher at a church so he owuld be mad. we had sex, all the time how bad i know but we dont want to wait and he said GREAT OH KAY! and I was really feeling the wets? down there- too embarsed to say- but he acted like man.
as one of the resident hippie moms, just let me say this...
You can't have it both ways.
You can't have an epidural - - a medical intervention that has the potential to slow down your labor to the point where you'll need a c-section, the whole point of which is to numb you from the waist down... AND have a completely medical-intervention free birth.
YOU.CAN'T.HAVE.IT.BOTH.WAYS.
If you want an intervention free birth, more power to you. You should consider a midwife, and a birth center or home birth. Or talk with your OB about minimal interventions.
But if you want an epidural, they're probably going to be checking your dilation... because you won't be able to feel it.
Jeez.
I usually don't tell this story to pregnant women, because it's evil. OP, you keep reading... everybody else, just skip up to the ************, OK?
OK... everybody else gone?
With my daughter, I was in labor for 96 freaking hours. It's called podromal labor... you can look it up... I was having contractions that were long and short, close together and far apart. They were uneven and irregular. They were exhausting and painful to the point where when they hit I couldn't walk and couldn't speak. For ninety six hours.
After the first 36 hours or so, I went into the hospital... I wanted to get checked in because I was firmly convinced I was in labor and it was intense and I wanted to be among medical professionals. They checked me. I was a HALF centimeter dilated.
I went in a day later. The contractions had continued unabated for another day. I was a centimeter dilated.
At a half centimeter or a centimeter there was no way in everlovinghell that they could or would give me an epidural... my contractions were irregular so I wasn't making progress... turns out baby was also malpositioned (she was trying to come out face first and sunny side up) which is why my labor was so messed up.
My doctor actually checked me into the hospital and gave me morphine so I could sleep. Not an epidural. Morphine.
Now that the scary part is over, we'll bring everybody else back in, mkay?
*******************
Not every labor is textbook. Not every labor is perfect. They can make guesses about how far along you are (like when you're vomiting, you're probably transitioning, so you're probably dilated about 7 cm) but not one of those indicators is as accurate as actually getting in there and seeing what your cervix is doing.
Having a baby isn't Burger King. You can't always have it your way.
Thank you for that! I am cracking up
i wish i could be joking but my dad is the music teacher at a church so he owuld be mad. we had sex, all the time how bad i know but we dont want to wait and he said GREAT OH KAY! and I was really feeling the wets? down there- too embarsed to say- but he acted like man.
Did you really think that you would go the whole pregnancy without having your vag looked at? Your vag is where your baby starts and where it (usually) enters the world.
This is such a weird question. I wonder if you have some other reason for not wanting people up in your vag...like, is your fiance giving you crap about it? Are you scared of it? Believe me, by the time you are done with this pregnancy your vag will have been checked so many times you won't even notice anymore.
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Why do you want to get the epi immediately? Epi's often slow down labor & you would be on strong medication for a long time. You many want to give yourself the opportunity to go through early labor without it, you may not even need it. I'm not knocking epi's, in any way, just curious to why you are in a rush to get it. Do you have other medical issues or maybe fear issues?
I plan on only being checked during admission. I have requested to opt out of cervical checks the weeks leading up to labor and after the initial check at the hospital.
I am actually not 100% on getting it when I go in immediately...I initially wanted to in order to avoid hours of pain...even if it wasn't the high intensity contractions...and I was hopeful that by the time pushing came along it would be dulled enough for me to feel some of what was going on since I received it hours earlier. That was a suggestion one doctor gave me and it seemed to make sense but I am not sure about it yet. I have PTSD issues.
Really? since I am okay with having sex with my fiancee I should be okay with all vagina related issues? That's a ridiculous mentality. but thanks for being judgmental and completely not helpful!
In my opinion, yes, you should be ok with vagina-related issues if you're going to be sexually active. It's part of the territory and that's not a ridculous mentality. I see no reason why any doctor should give you what you want if they don't feel like they have all of the information they need in order to know that it's medically necessary. This is just bizarre. It's like asking for antibiotics without letting a doctor check if you have strep throat first, or saying you need vicodin for a kidney stone you're pretty sure you have but you're not going to let them verify.
By the way, you are SO lucky you're not having multiples or are high risk. Doctors are in my vag EVERY WEEK. And I absolutely want them to do it- for my safety and the babies' safety.
If it seriously impeded them from safely giving me an epidural in their professional opinion...and didn't just make them work a little harder to assess where I am at then of course Ill allow it to be done.but if it is just easier, quicker, and procedure then I am not all for it as it causes a great amount of distress and pain for me which we all know is not good for a laboring woman and child. I would have to be truly convinced that they were worried about giving me medication because they truly could not figure out what point I was at. I am just trying to figure out if it is unnecessary in the way that I've found pelvic exams and paps to be. I am glad you are okay with getting paps and VEs done...truly wish I could be okay with it too but I am not and can't be so please do not tell me to be okay with something just because I chose to indulge in the incredibly human act of making love to my fiancee.
Yes, because the vaginal check is going to be the worse part of labor. You need to ask your freaking doctor what their policy is, not a bunch of internet strangers.
I posted on that thread at the bottom - seriously it's like she's afraid of the vaginal exams and she's just trying to sound like it's because she doesn't believe in it for medical reasons.
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Hi everyone, Okay a little back story - I do not believe in vaginal exams or pap smears in the first place. I feel that they are outdated procedures that offer little to no benefit for asymptomatic women. I have never had a pap or a pelvic exam and I probably never will. Please do not be alarmed, many medical professionals back my opinion. I do not wish to get into an argument over the importance of gynecology and how at risk my, oh so prone to disease and infection, vagina is. It is fear mongering and I will never believe otherwise and I do not care what you believe. With that said, I plan to get an epidural as soon as possible when I am in the hospital. However, I do not want a vaginal exam to determine if I am in active labor or not - can I demand they assess my progress through other means and still receive the epidural? Can they refuse me the epidural if I do not comply with VEs? When it is time to push I may not feel the urge, are their other reliable ways to tell if a woman who has had an epidural and cannot feel anything is ready to push? Thanks!
I love what you have done here with the bolded parts. That is key to getting the answers you want to hear.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
No one would fault you had you said "I have personal issues with vaginal exams - is it possible to forgo them?" You'd probably hear that no, it's really not likely to forgo them but you can minimize them.
BUT - the minute you state that what is objectively considered to be one of THE most useful tools in the early detection or even prevention of cancer is instead "torture" "antiquated" and "medically unnecessary", you lose all credibility.
It's 100% fine to have a personal preference. You don't need to gin up some bogus assertion that is demonstrably untrue.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Ok. I have finally read this entire string. I suspect that the OP may be a victim of sexual assault or childhood molestation. It is the only explanation that makes any senseto me. For victims, and I speak as one, PAP smears are a totally different experience. They really can be a kind of torture. I had one care provided that was so rough with me that I experienced symptoms of PTSD all over again and had to return to counseling. I am sure that sounds nuts but it is what it is. It is also only my experience. If the OP is also a victim - it may explain this whole thread.
Soon to be Big Sister Eowyn - DOB February 2012
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
Well OP maybe you can cite some of the research you have done on this for us. If we can view the website or get some info on the books you have read, we may be able to read what you are reading and actually try to answer you.
But I think most people are right when they say no Dr will guarantee you anything. And perhaps a C-section is a good idea to look into (although I never believe any unneccessary surgery is a good surgery).
If the only book you are citing is Male Practice......that is so out dated from like what, 30 or 40 years ago.
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Why do you want to get the epi immediately? Epi's often slow down labor & you would be on strong medication for a long time. You many want to give yourself the opportunity to go through early labor without it, you may not even need it. I'm not knocking epi's, in any way, just curious to why you are in a rush to get it. Do you have other medical issues or maybe fear issues?
I plan on only being checked during admission. I have requested to opt out of cervical checks the weeks leading up to labor and after the initial check at the hospital.
I am actually not 100% on getting it when I go in immediately...I initially wanted to in order to avoid hours of pain...even if it wasn't the high intensity contractions...and I was hopeful that by the time pushing came along it would be dulled enough for me to feel some of what was going on since I received it hours earlier. That was a suggestion one doctor gave me and it seemed to make sense but I am not sure about it yet. I have PTSD issues.
*le sigh*
You know you don't go to the hospital the first second you have the first contraction, right?
You have to wait until you have an hour's worth of contractions that are no more than five minutes apart. That's fairly standard... now some doctors or some moms might have different orders, but that's the standard bit.
Many moms are in labor for days before that happens... my first was messed (read above) but my second was far more normal, and I was having contractions on and off for a week before I was in active labor... and as it was, I didn't go to the hospital until I was transitioning.
You don't get to say "oh, I felt a pain down there, stick a needle into my spine now please!"
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
I've found that if you do "research" (and for the record, typing words into Google isn't research) where you're only looking for proof that backs up your pre-existing ideas and ignore anything that contradicts you, you can almost always find evidence that supports your idea, no matter how very stupid it is. True research considers both ideas that support and reject your hypothesis, and then makes a decision based on ALL of the evidence, not just the evidence you like.
You're scared of pap smears and vaginal exams. That's fine. I'm not aware of anyone who loves them. But instead of facing your fear, getting over it, and moving on with your life, you decided instead that you would look for "evidence" that proved that you were right to dislike them. That's not a very responsible way of making medical decisions. It's possible to do that with anything you dislike, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I hate tomatoes. So I just did a Google search for "tomatoes are bad for you" and came up with 30,700,000 links about tomatoes being bad for you. Voila - I can now justify my hatred of tomatoes by supporting it with "scientific" evidence.
Ok. I have finally read this entire string. I suspect that the OP may be a victim of sexual assault or childhood molestation. It is the only explanation that makes any senseto me. For victims, and I speak as one, PAP smears are a totally different experience. They really can be a kind of torture. I had one care provided that was so rough with me that I experienced symptoms of PTSD all over again and had to return to counseling. I am sure that sounds nuts but it is what it is. It is also only my experience. If the OP is also a victim - it may explain this whole thread.
That would make more sense, but why not just say that to begin with? Why start out saying it is an unnecessary procedure?
i wish i could be joking but my dad is the music teacher at a church so he owuld be mad. we had sex, all the time how bad i know but we dont want to wait and he said GREAT OH KAY! and I was really feeling the wets? down there- too embarsed to say- but he acted like man.
I didn't read all the replies, but I just wanted to say you can give birth without someone checking your dilation. My situation was different because I had a home birth with my first, so I didn't have an epidural, but I wasn't checked once and the baby and I both lived to tell about it.
I am actually not 100% on getting it when I go in immediately...I initially wanted to in order to avoid hours of pain...even if it wasn't the high intensity contractions...and I was hopeful that by the time pushing came along it would be dulled enough for me to feel some of what was going on since I received it hours earlier. That was a suggestion one doctor gave me and it seemed to make sense but I am not sure about it yet. I have PTSD issues.
This is completely different and also helpful information. As a pp suggested, try to find someone to talk about your issues with. I would think a professional would be able to help you more than we ever could.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...
Ok, I really don't like OP's tone or approach so I understand some of the backlash here.
That said, it really seems like she has some other stuff going on aside from "I just think it's icky and unnecessary"...those just sound like excuses to avoid her real issue.... perhaps a history of abuse?
OP might not want to discuss that and I think we should be sensitive to the fact that it can be a legitimate problem: every childbirth book I have read says that past sexual trauma can be a major issue for laboring women and it must be handled very sensitively. OBs are usually familiar with modifications and other ways to help patients with these needs. I think counseling could also help make the birth experience more positive for you and less retraumatizing, if that's what you're afraid of.
Telling someone who has been victimized (if this is the case here) that she needs to just get over it is naive. I know she hasn't outright said it, but it seems to be implied by her comments.
Ok. I have finally read this entire string. I suspect that the OP may be a victim of sexual assault or childhood molestation. It is the only explanation that makes any senseto me. For victims, and I speak as one, PAP smears are a totally different experience. They really can be a kind of torture. I had one care provided that was so rough with me that I experienced symptoms of PTSD all over again and had to return to counseling. I am sure that sounds nuts but it is what it is. It is also only my experience. If the OP is also a victim - it may explain this whole thread.
That would make more sense, but why not just say that to begin with? Why start out saying it is an unnecessary procedure?
:::shrugs:::: Everyone has different comfort levels. It is certainly not info that I reveal about myself on a first meeting. I just hope that the latest revelation about PTSD is not MUD and a way to take the heat off. Because then I might go BSC.
Soon to be Big Sister Eowyn - DOB February 2012
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
Nope. there's no other way you won't feel it so you will have to be checked. Good luck at trying to not get checked throughout the entire process, you will need to be checked to make sure the baby isn't in the wrong position!!
I was never checked once during my last pregnancy. My MWs were able to determine positioning without it and I knew when I was ready to push without anyone having to tell me.
But to get an epidural I have a feeling you need checked.
OMG thank you February! I don't see how you can go from stating that vaginal exams and PAPs are unnecessary procedures to being scared of them. Oh wait, you can if you are a MUDdy backtracker
I don't understand the hostility - really I do not know why everyone is up in arms over this. I always had a problem with VEs and paps -- I never wanted to get one for some really compelling reasons...so I did some research to see if I really had to subject myself to this torture - which is not me being dramatic...or maybe it is...but that is how it feels to me. I found sooo much evidence that paps and vaginal exams were basically useless in asymptomatic women that I adopted the belief system that they are outdated and potentially harmful procedures. I find this easier to discuss than my fear of the exam it also seems to be easier for people to understand...although maybe not after reading these responses. haha
I think there's more to this than you may be letting on but that is your own story. I've never found a routine pap to be torturous. Inconvenient and uncomfortable, maybe. But also quick and an important part of women's health. Many STI's and infections do not exhibit symptoms in women but paps and evaluations/examinations find them. So your opinion about asympomatic women is very off.
That being said I was not checked "routinely" through the last month of my pregnancy. I was checked several times during labour by my midwives and then an OB who determined through this examination that the baby was in a bad position and quickly had to be removed.
It is ok to be uncomfortable about the examinations but to turn that discomfort into a sweeping generalization that flies in the face of modern medicine and women's health publications is outrageous and that is why you are receiving incredulous feedback. I know that personally I'm really hoping you're able to find someone to deal with these hang ups before they become dangerous or too hard for you to deal with during labour.
Thats just it tho, there is nothing modern about gyncecology - it is archaic! I urge you to do a simple google search of the unimportance of the pap smear you will truly be surprised. I get that it seems outrageous but when I read something that is so ridiculous I cannot believe it...I go research it and decide for myself...I don't automatically dismiss it as false...would it really be so out of this world to find out that our vaginas are not as prone to sickness and infection as we once thought? Or that there are modern medical advances that make paps obsolete yet are being withheld from the public simply because you can bill a lot more for a pelvic. Look up the blood test that should have already replaced pap tests it is patented...it is just being stalled and buried. What it really comes down to is a matter of opinion...I did not once attack any of these ladies for having the opinion that a pap is important, or that VEs during labor are super necessary even tho my opinion disagrees....yet I feel quite attacked for simply stating that it is my opinion...through hours of research....that it is not necessary for me, personally and possibly others that feel like I do and are also low risk for any complications. I do have underlying issues which i thought would be so ridiculously obvious to most women on here. haha I guess not - most women on here seemed happy to make fun of me.
No one here can tell you what your doctor or hospital is willing to do/not do. Talk to your doctor about your concerns and see what their policy is. Then schedule an appointment with the hospital you're going to deliver at and find out their policies on epidurals and other pain management options.
Really? since I am okay with having sex with my fiancee I should be okay with all vagina related issues? That's a ridiculous mentality. but thanks for being judgmental and completely not helpful!
A non-judgmental response: Research suggests that at some point during a normal labor/delivery, a woman should be internally examined to make sure her Cervix is dilating properly and that baby is coming out the right direction. Unfortunatly, belly Ultrasounds just don't cut it. Midwives, healers, etc... have done this for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I completly understand your discomfort with having un-nessisary things done to the most private of areas. I hate my yearly visits, I deal with them because cervical cancer runs in the family.
Be choosing to have an epi right away when labor starts, you are changing the dynamics. It will not be a "normal" labor/delivery. Thus causing them to track you more closely.
Whatever the reasons, your choices are yours to make. But your Doctor will tell you what is best and safest for you and the baby.
Ok. I have finally read this entire string. I suspect that the OP may be a victim of sexual assault or childhood molestation. It is the only explanation that makes any senseto me. For victims, and I speak as one, PAP smears are a totally different experience. They really can be a kind of torture. I had one care provided that was so rough with me that I experienced symptoms of PTSD all over again and had to return to counseling. I am sure that sounds nuts but it is what it is. It is also only my experience. If the OP is also a victim - it may explain this whole thread.
That would make more sense, but why not just say that to begin with? Why start out saying it is an unnecessary procedure?
:::shrugs:::: Everyone has different comfort levels. It is certainly not info that I reveal about myself on a first meeting. I just hope that the latest revelation about PTSD is not MUD and a way to take the heat off. Because then I might go BSC.
I get that it is something you might not be comfortable revealing right away, but I does seem like another addition to the MUD. BTW I'm sorry for what happened to you.
i wish i could be joking but my dad is the music teacher at a church so he owuld be mad. we had sex, all the time how bad i know but we dont want to wait and he said GREAT OH KAY! and I was really feeling the wets? down there- too embarsed to say- but he acted like man.
Re: Refusing Vaginal Exams
If you know you're asking for special treatment and you're not getting what you want, well...the only thing I can say is toughshit. Lots of women make birth plans---detailed discriptions of how they want their labor to go, and sometimes that goes out the effing window. If you are not providing a doctor with a better rational for not wanting a VE than it gives you the heebie-jeebies and makes you uncomfortable, then what do you really expect? Woman-Up lady; put your big girl pants on. Next doctor you ask, preface it by saying you want a yes or no answer. I've got five bucks on them not telling you what you want to hear.
Having a baby isn't Burger King. You can't always have it your way.
For many people it is the worst part of labor.
This. If you don't want a VE, don't get one. They can't pin you down and force themselves on you - if you don't consent, that's it and they can't deny care to a woman in active labor. However, they're not required to provide you drugs, especially if that might endanger yourself or your child.
I'm trying to be helpful: have you read up on natural birth? Refusing, or limiting, VE checks is much more standard for natural births and it's less of an issue for the practitioner because you'll know when you're ready to push. Good luck!
As for the legitimacy of pap screening, could you please direct me to the studies that call it into question? I work at a cancer research center and have never heard a single researcher or doctor who is anything but supportive of them. This might be of interest:
I can't answer your question, but would love to hear more about what you have heard about pap screening being unnecessary and not medically useful.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
Because there are genuine reasons why vaginal checks are necessary during L&D...and its not just because "doctors are lazy". They are for the safety of you and your child. In our sue-happy society, doctors have to protect their backs. So good luck finding a doctor who is wiling to give you serious drugs without first checking to make sure you are in active labor and at the safe point to administer it. And honestly, if someone sticking a few fingers up there is causing you so much distress, what were you expecting out of the birth process. It's no walk in the park.
You win the interwebz!
I am the 99%.
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
I think there's more to this than you may be letting on but that is your own story. I've never found a routine pap to be torturous. Inconvenient and uncomfortable, maybe. But also quick and an important part of women's health. Many STI's and infections do not exhibit symptoms in women but paps and evaluations/examinations find them. So your opinion about asympomatic women is very off.
That being said I was not checked "routinely" through the last month of my pregnancy. I was checked several times during labour by my midwives and then an OB who determined through this examination that the baby was in a bad position and quickly had to be removed.
It is ok to be uncomfortable about the examinations but to turn that discomfort into a sweeping generalization that flies in the face of modern medicine and women's health publications is outrageous and that is why you are receiving incredulous feedback. I know that personally I'm really hoping you're able to find someone to deal with these hang ups before they become dangerous or too hard for you to deal with during labour.
I really think that your best option would be a MW and deliver at home. That way you would not have to deal with hospital policies that you are not so keen on. There are other medications out there that will "take the edge off" but still allow you to feel when it is time to push.
As far as the "hostility" goes, your timing and join date could not be crappier. You did not actually introduce yourself, you just showed up and started posting about how you believe 'x', 'y' & 'z' but then asked us about 'b'. All the while you are hell bent on getting a bunch of people who don't know you from a snowypumpkinqueen to only talk about 'b'. Maybe trying to dictate what and how the rest of us respond is what is not going over so well.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
I've never even heard a single complaint about vag checks until your crazy sauce showed up.
hahaha okay ill just let everyone "Bash" me as you put it that's what I should do since I am new here and asked a question you couldn't answer... I didn't realize it was the introduction posts and no I don't know anything about this site - how is that an insult? making fun of my shortcuts? haha really? I just had an offbeat question that made a lot of people angry/uncomfortable/confused and some women lashed out...i totally didn't expect it...and I don't think I deserved it.
This. A five-minute pap exam is small beans compared to a baby coming out of your vag. I also have a hard time believing you, OP, have no problem getting dicked-down on a regular basis but a pap smear is something you find 'torture.'
I think this chick is MUDdy as all hayle but I'll still play along for the entertainment.
I'm just speechless about a pap being considered "torture." There are plenty of things in life that aren't fun, but we do them because it's part of being an adult.
Get ready for a rude awakening before long.
Dup
Oh I don't believe that for a second. And I wasn't at all hostile I just don't understand how you can go from saying you believe that something is unnecessary to saying that is causes you distress. Labor is a messy thing and having a doctor do a vaginal exam isn't even close to the worst part!
Honestly, and in all seriousness...
as one of the resident hippie moms, just let me say this...
You can't have it both ways.
You can't have an epidural - - a medical intervention that has the potential to slow down your labor to the point where you'll need a c-section, the whole point of which is to numb you from the waist down... AND have a completely medical-intervention free birth.
YOU.CAN'T.HAVE.IT.BOTH.WAYS.
If you want an intervention free birth, more power to you. You should consider a midwife, and a birth center or home birth. Or talk with your OB about minimal interventions.
But if you want an epidural, they're probably going to be checking your dilation... because you won't be able to feel it.
Jeez.
I usually don't tell this story to pregnant women, because it's evil. OP, you keep reading... everybody else, just skip up to the ************, OK?
OK... everybody else gone?
With my daughter, I was in labor for 96 freaking hours. It's called podromal labor... you can look it up... I was having contractions that were long and short, close together and far apart. They were uneven and irregular. They were exhausting and painful to the point where when they hit I couldn't walk and couldn't speak. For ninety six hours.
After the first 36 hours or so, I went into the hospital... I wanted to get checked in because I was firmly convinced I was in labor and it was intense and I wanted to be among medical professionals. They checked me. I was a HALF centimeter dilated.
I went in a day later. The contractions had continued unabated for another day. I was a centimeter dilated.
At a half centimeter or a centimeter there was no way in everlovinghell that they could or would give me an epidural... my contractions were irregular so I wasn't making progress... turns out baby was also malpositioned (she was trying to come out face first and sunny side up) which is why my labor was so messed up.
My doctor actually checked me into the hospital and gave me morphine so I could sleep. Not an epidural. Morphine.
Now that the scary part is over, we'll bring everybody else back in, mkay?
*******************
Not every labor is textbook. Not every labor is perfect. They can make guesses about how far along you are (like when you're vomiting, you're probably transitioning, so you're probably dilated about 7 cm) but not one of those indicators is as accurate as actually getting in there and seeing what your cervix is doing.
Sorry, but that's the truth.
I am the 99%.
Thank you for that! I am cracking up
Did you really think that you would go the whole pregnancy without having your vag looked at? Your vag is where your baby starts and where it (usually) enters the world.
You, miss, are not so bright.
I am actually not 100% on getting it when I go in immediately...I initially wanted to in order to avoid hours of pain...even if it wasn't the high intensity contractions...and I was hopeful that by the time pushing came along it would be dulled enough for me to feel some of what was going on since I received it hours earlier. That was a suggestion one doctor gave me and it seemed to make sense but I am not sure about it yet. I have PTSD issues.
I posted on that thread at the bottom - seriously it's like she's afraid of the vaginal exams and she's just trying to sound like it's because she doesn't believe in it for medical reasons.
I love what you have done here with the bolded parts. That is key to getting the answers you want to hear.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
No one would fault you had you said "I have personal issues with vaginal exams - is it possible to forgo them?" You'd probably hear that no, it's really not likely to forgo them but you can minimize them.
BUT - the minute you state that what is objectively considered to be one of THE most useful tools in the early detection or even prevention of cancer is instead "torture" "antiquated" and "medically unnecessary", you lose all credibility.
It's 100% fine to have a personal preference. You don't need to gin up some bogus assertion that is demonstrably untrue.
I am a runner, knitter, scientist, DE-IVF veteran, and stage III colon cancer survivor.
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
Well OP maybe you can cite some of the research you have done on this for us. If we can view the website or get some info on the books you have read, we may be able to read what you are reading and actually try to answer you.
But I think most people are right when they say no Dr will guarantee you anything. And perhaps a C-section is a good idea to look into (although I never believe any unneccessary surgery is a good surgery).
If the only book you are citing is Male Practice......that is so out dated from like what, 30 or 40 years ago.
*le sigh*
You know you don't go to the hospital the first second you have the first contraction, right?
You have to wait until you have an hour's worth of contractions that are no more than five minutes apart. That's fairly standard... now some doctors or some moms might have different orders, but that's the standard bit.
Many moms are in labor for days before that happens... my first was messed (read above) but my second was far more normal, and I was having contractions on and off for a week before I was in active labor... and as it was, I didn't go to the hospital until I was transitioning.
You don't get to say "oh, I felt a pain down there, stick a needle into my spine now please!"
I am the 99%.
I've found that if you do "research" (and for the record, typing words into Google isn't research) where you're only looking for proof that backs up your pre-existing ideas and ignore anything that contradicts you, you can almost always find evidence that supports your idea, no matter how very stupid it is. True research considers both ideas that support and reject your hypothesis, and then makes a decision based on ALL of the evidence, not just the evidence you like.
You're scared of pap smears and vaginal exams. That's fine. I'm not aware of anyone who loves them. But instead of facing your fear, getting over it, and moving on with your life, you decided instead that you would look for "evidence" that proved that you were right to dislike them. That's not a very responsible way of making medical decisions. It's possible to do that with anything you dislike, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I hate tomatoes. So I just did a Google search for "tomatoes are bad for you" and came up with 30,700,000 links about tomatoes being bad for you. Voila - I can now justify my hatred of tomatoes by supporting it with "scientific" evidence.
That would make more sense, but why not just say that to begin with? Why start out saying it is an unnecessary procedure?
This is completely different and also helpful information. As a pp suggested, try to find someone to talk about your issues with. I would think a professional would be able to help you more than we ever could.
"When the world says, 'Give up,' Hope whispers, 'Try one more time.'" -Anonymous
Ok, I really don't like OP's tone or approach so I understand some of the backlash here.
That said, it really seems like she has some other stuff going on aside from "I just think it's icky and unnecessary"...those just sound like excuses to avoid her real issue.... perhaps a history of abuse?
OP might not want to discuss that and I think we should be sensitive to the fact that it can be a legitimate problem: every childbirth book I have read says that past sexual trauma can be a major issue for laboring women and it must be handled very sensitively. OBs are usually familiar with modifications and other ways to help patients with these needs. I think counseling could also help make the birth experience more positive for you and less retraumatizing, if that's what you're afraid of.
Telling someone who has been victimized (if this is the case here) that she needs to just get over it is naive. I know she hasn't outright said it, but it seems to be implied by her comments.
DD #1: 2012; MMC: 2014; DD #2: 2015; It's a boy! 3/31/2018
My family is a Foreign Service family. Families like mine are posted in every corner of the globe. We live our lives away from family, friends and the conviences and comforts of home. We often live and work in dangerous places among those that misunderstand our intentions and purposes. Sometimes members of our ranks sacrifice our lives to further diplomacy. Please remember that we serve too. And I'm always open to questions.
I was never checked once during my last pregnancy. My MWs were able to determine positioning without it and I knew when I was ready to push without anyone having to tell me.
But to get an epidural I have a feeling you need checked.
Thats just it tho, there is nothing modern about gyncecology - it is archaic! I urge you to do a simple google search of the unimportance of the pap smear you will truly be surprised. I get that it seems outrageous but when I read something that is so ridiculous I cannot believe it...I go research it and decide for myself...I don't automatically dismiss it as false...would it really be so out of this world to find out that our vaginas are not as prone to sickness and infection as we once thought? Or that there are modern medical advances that make paps obsolete yet are being withheld from the public simply because you can bill a lot more for a pelvic. Look up the blood test that should have already replaced pap tests it is patented...it is just being stalled and buried. What it really comes down to is a matter of opinion...I did not once attack any of these ladies for having the opinion that a pap is important, or that VEs during labor are super necessary even tho my opinion disagrees....yet I feel quite attacked for simply stating that it is my opinion...through hours of research....that it is not necessary for me, personally and possibly others that feel like I do and are also low risk for any complications. I do have underlying issues which i thought would be so ridiculously obvious to most women on here. haha I guess not - most women on here seemed happy to make fun of me.
No one here can tell you what your doctor or hospital is willing to do/not do. Talk to your doctor about your concerns and see what their policy is. Then schedule an appointment with the hospital you're going to deliver at and find out their policies on epidurals and other pain management options.
A non-judgmental response: Research suggests that at some point during a normal labor/delivery, a woman should be internally examined to make sure her Cervix is dilating properly and that baby is coming out the right direction. Unfortunatly, belly Ultrasounds just don't cut it. Midwives, healers, etc... have done this for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I completly understand your discomfort with having un-nessisary things done to the most private of areas. I hate my yearly visits, I deal with them because cervical cancer runs in the family.
Be choosing to have an epi right away when labor starts, you are changing the dynamics. It will not be a "normal" labor/delivery. Thus causing them to track you more closely.
Whatever the reasons, your choices are yours to make. But your Doctor will tell you what is best and safest for you and the baby.
I get that it is something you might not be comfortable revealing right away, but I does seem like another addition to the MUD. BTW I'm sorry for what happened to you.