Natural Birth
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Triplets!
Yesterday at my midwife office i met a mom-to-be who just found out that she is expecting 100% natural triplets! That is just so rare... she said something like 1 in 280,000 i think! I can't imagine being in her shoes! And the U/S tech didn't even tell her... she just got a call "you have a multiple pregnancy" She and the father are overwhelmed, naturally!
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Re: Triplets!
That's really cool and all, but please learn to use proper terminology about multiples. The term is "spontaneous" triplets, not natural.
It's pretty offensive to women whose multiples are due to ART (assisted reproductive technology like IVF, IUI, etc) to hear that their kids aren't "natural".
I get it, and I think that the way we use langauge is very important, but if this is the case, isn't it also offensive that we're on the "natural birth" board?
Now I've heard it all.
You probably have never been on any of the IF boards or lurked on the multiples board, but it truly is a thorn in the side of a lot of people.
And, to who ever it was that asked. --The fact that this board is called Natural Birth has bugged a lot of people. Just because someone chooses to have an epi does not make their birth any less "natural". I think there was a proposal a few months ago to change the name to the Med-Free birthing board or something along those lines, but nothing came of it.
Thanks for articulating this. I don't know why people have to get their panties in a wad over terminology just because the truth offends people.
Bravo! Very well put
That's all well and good til someone walks up to a mom with multiples or a lady pregnant with multiples and asks her if they're "natural" when the asker really wants to know if you used IVF/IUI to get pregnant. (Of COURSE they're natural. They're human babies).
It's the same thing when people ask if an adopted child is the parent's "real" child, when the asker is really trying to figure out if it's a biological child or adopted child. (Of COURSE it's their real child. Kids aren't fake.)
It doesn't make the questions any less offensive/irritating--not to mention INTRUSIVE-- to the person who is stuck on the receiving end of it.
My point is that people need to educate themselves on how those comments sound to the receiver, not how it sounds to them as they make the comment.
Actually it does. You can argue all you want, but epi's and other drugs for labor aren't natural. Doesn't mean that they don't have a purpose and a good use, but they don't exist "in nature".
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You and Goober are fake humans. Clearly.
Well, thank you very much for making my "unnatural" twins and I feel totally freakin' welcome on this board.
Just FYI. My children are not unnatural. The method of conception might have been (and so is the genetic condition that left us without "natural" options), but that doesn't make my children unnatural. And, yes, that is what is implied every single time someone calls spontaneous multiples natural. I could certainly do without the judgmental "I would never do fertility treatments" position that keeps infertility a taboo subject in our culture.
THANK YOU for posting this here. You know, since I clearly don't know what I'm talking about after 3 years of IF or anything.
My point is that those who benefit from such interventions should be grateful for them but not get bent out of shape when someone else makes a statement of fact. If someone said it directly to you about your situation i can understand you being offended, and i agree that sensitivity is paramount when speaking personally. But if i ever had occasion to conceive via medical science i would have no reason to get upset if someone else spoke of conceiving naturally... its a statement of fact. In fact, I would be grateful with them that they did not need to go through the time, effort and expense to achieve the same result!
On the contrary, I am very happy for you that such an option is available and you have the means to pursue it! If i was unable to conceive naturally, I would hope i had the ability to get such help as you have. But i would never say i had conceived naturally if in fact I used medical science to assist an otherwise naturally impossible goal.
As Christina said, the actual definition of the word natural is "existing in or formed by nature or based on the state of things in nature." To be offended by the definition of the word is just silly, whether it relates to birth, the conception of multiples or the loaf of bread I bought at the store.
Is asking a woman if her egg fertilization was natural/spontaneous/medically assisted, etc intrusive and generally rude? Yes. But that is not the point. I haven't heard anyone argue that to be an accpetable question. We are debating the offensiveness of the definintion of the word natural.
The beauty of the human brain is that we have the ability to detect malice and use our other senses and experiences to make judgments about people's intentions. You must realize that there was no malice intended in the OP's post, nor, is there in the term "natural birth." So to be offended by it is illogical. My guess is that the women who have read this thread will likely try to remember to use the term "spontaneous" if this type of conversation comes up in their real lives, so we have learned something. What I think you should learn is to be a tad less sensitive and look deeper into someone's intentions.
And by the way, in pointing out that you thought the OP was rude/offensive, you came off as extremely rude yourself.
You are a tool. If you had any idea what you were talking about or could muster up the compassion to see someone else's perspective, you would realize that it's not about the "time, effort and expense" of creating a child. Time, effort and expense go out the window when you find out that your body isn't going to allow you to have children "naturally".
I can't tell if your vision is impaired because your head's so far up your rear that you can't see in the dark or if the altitude of having a "natural" child makes it so you can't see us clearly enough from your high and mighty mountaintop.
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So people going through ART/IF, those who adopt or have multiples should STFU when people use incorrect and offensive terminology, instead of seeking to educate others on how wrong and offensive some terms are. Got it.
And, really? You can't know what you'd feel when facing down an IF dx unless you've been there. Seriously.
this is how i view it too.
Elizabeth 5yrs old Jane 3yrs old
1. Welcome to the Nest. I am blunt. I am honest. I am rarely rude.
2. Reading comprehension fail? I never said the OP was rude or offensive, but that the term she used often offends people and that there is a much more accurate, less-offensive term that is widely accepted by those who have multiples.
3. Someone learning something new (not using some offensive terms to people who hear them daily and get sick of them) is exactly what my point in commenting was.
4. I also love that at least a couple people on this thread think that people who are IF/those that adopt/those that have multiples should get over themselves and be less sensitive. If it was your kid who was called unnatural, or fake, or any of the other examples I've given before, you'd probably be just as upset. But hey, the IFers and families who adopt or have multiples? Yeah, they should "be a tad less sensitive".
It's so easy to speak when you've never been in that position. You have zero idea what you would feel, say, or do until it happens to you. So perhaps you should take your cue from those actually dealing with IF, and dig for some empthy. You don't have to "get it" to understand that it offends them, and not use those words.
Who are you to tell these women (and me, as it happens, though for different reasons) how we should feel about terminology that directly affects us?
Um, what? "Spontaneous" is the medical definition. Are you so offended by the use of ART to conceive that you'd feel the need to differentiate your twins vs someone else's 'unnatural' twins?
I actually find it offensive that many of you come on this thread and tell us that we are calling your children something we didn't and that we feel a certain way about adoption or IF that we don't. If you read back through the posts, no one here has said anything negative about adoption or infertility. We do not believe that your children are fake. To be honest, no one really cares one way or the other how your children were concived, not because we don't feel for you, but simply because it doesn't matter- kids are kids! Children are a blessing whichever way they come- and thank God for modern science to grant women who might not otherwise be able to have kids with the gift of motherhood. And I would be willing to bet money that the vast majority of the women on the Natural Birth board would agree with that. The point of the OP was to share something that was pretty cool because of it's rarity. Not because it downplays medically assisted pregnancies that result in triplets. Not because IF triplets aren't cool too. Not everything insinuates the opposite. Just like I do not insunate that someone's baby is "unnatural" because I say that I had a "natural" birth that occured as it would in nature. Of course all births are natural in a sense, but in nature, it would happen without meds. There's just no arguing against that point and it doesn't mean anything about how I view your birth/child.
And for the record, since in your own words the responsibility is on the commenter & not the receiver, ("My point is that people need to educate themselves on how those comments sound to the receiver, not how it sounds to them as they make the comment."), as a receiver, I am going to disagree with you and say that you are rude. "
She was trying to educate about the proper terms so people wouldn't be so offensive.
Yet, no one is willing to learn anything.
I never said I was offended by the use of ART. I have several friends who have had to use medical intervention to help them get pregnant. I think it's a wonderful thing. I also never said that my twins would be different than some else's twins. The conception of the twins is different - not the twins themselves.
What gets me is when did the word unnatural become inherently bad.
C-sections are unnatural, in the truest sense of the word but they frequently save lives.
There are any number of "unnatural" medical procedures and devices that save and enhance our lives. I'm all for unnatural things.
Elizabeth 5yrs old Jane 3yrs old
Where have I been rude? WHERE?
FTR, I used the examples of comments relating to IF and Adoption because these situations happen DAILY. These are things that IFers/MoMs/Adopters hear on a very regular basis, and pointing out how offensive a term can be to someone who uses said term on a message board is not rude. It's called education.
If the OP had used the term "retard", I would have said the same thing. "Yo! The word retard? Mm, pretty offensive. The correct term is "developmentally disabled." And no one would have disagreed a bit.
The fact that two other IFers and two MoMs have agreed with me should give you a little hint that I'm not just blowing smoke up your asses for the sheer fun of it. If I XP'ed this to IF or Multiples or Adoption, there would be pretty darn universal agreement.
Finally, you say "it doesn't mean anything about how I view your birth/child" [if you use the word 'natural'] but to a whole lot of people, that term has very bad connotations and a whole lot of judgment. The adoption community seeks to educate on using positive adoption language (as in the example I gave before of not using the word "real" to inquire about whether or not a child is adopted) and so do the communities of women who are IF and/or have multiples, because FOR US (the ones that deal with it every day) there is a HUGE HUGE problem with someone asking me if my child is 'natural'.
Edit: I meant to address this to Mrs.Liberto, not OP I do understand your point of view, and I'm not one to intentionally try to insult a group of people once I'm aware I can choose to use language that is less offensive.
At the end of the day if you would prefer to be asked if your pregnancy was spontaneous then so be it, because I don't understand the feelings of people who go through difficulties TTC.
What I've always thought with these issues of language though, is that it never actually changes underlying attitudes.
It's like the continuing change of language around people with special needs: crippled, ratarded, disabled, differently abled. Changing the language doesn't change judgements and if it did then there wouldn't be a need to keep searching for a new and less offensive term.
Those who don't want to insult others will try to keep abreast of the "best" terminology. Others who don't want to appear judgemental will also aim to use the least insulting language. Those who don't care will use whatever words they want, and everyone will go on making whatever judgements they made before.
Elizabeth 5yrs old Jane 3yrs old
Sooooooooooooo, if I follow the reasoning from both of you, then it's okay to call a child a "retard"? Right?
Because it's truthful, and just "terminology" I can go around saying "hey that baby is a retard" or "is your child retard" because it's not offensive and that child's parents shouldn't get their panties in a wad?
And I should just ignore the people are trying to help me understand why it's offensive? Because I shouldn't want to better myself?
I'm truly sorry I wandered over to this board to ask a question. Obviously only a few people will agree with PPs statements, but I'd prefer to take my "unnatural" child and find support elsewhere.
Exactly! Thank you! No, i never thought nor said that the babies born of other-than-natural means are not natural. They are! My post was merely expressing the rarity of "spontaneous" triplets, and my surprise to actually meet someone carrying such!
My panties aren't in a wad, but I find it really offensive. The sperm that fertilize an egg in an IUI is just as 'natural'. It will be by a fabulous scientific alternative method that the sperm gets there, but there is nothing unnatural about it.
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