Triplets! - Page 2 — The Bump
Natural Birth

Triplets!

2

Re: Triplets!

  • image HarmsMomma:
    image nate_and_britt:

    image christina1776:
    To me natural is something "nature" does without assistance from technology, so i wish those who benefit from assistance could simply be thankful that the medical and scientific technology is available to help them achieve something that they could not or had not "naturally", and not get up tight about statements of truth which are not in any way shape or form intended to say anything negative to them or anyone else.

    Thanks for articulating this.  I don't know why people have to get their panties in a wad over terminology just because the truth offends people. 

    Sooooooooooooo, if I follow the reasoning from both of you, then it's okay to call a child a "retard"? Right?

    Because it's truthful, and just "terminology" I can go around saying "hey that baby is a retard" or "is your child retard" because it's not offensive and that child's parents shouldn't get their panties in a wad?

    And I should just ignore the people are trying to help me understand why it's offensive? Because I shouldn't want to better myself?

    I'm truly sorry I wandered over to this board to ask a question.  Obviously only a few people will agree with PPs statements, but I'd prefer to take my "unnatural" child and find support elsewhere.

    Well when I was born the term for Down Syndrome in the psychology community was Mongoloid. (I am reading through old psych texts for my degree). Lets to back to that one...not offensive at all right? It is just the PC mafia trying to get people to use the community accepted terms for things. After all, nobody is trying to hurt feelings by using that one, right? 

  • I will be the first to admit that I've used the term natural when referring to friends/family that got pregnant w. multiples without treatment and now I know better since it's easy enough for me not to use the term.  I was just ignorant on the terminology and have never been corrected.  I've never said that my friends and family that have had twins through IUI and IVF weren't natural though b/c to me it doesn't feel like the converse of natural.  Does that make sense? 

    Serious question here since it seems like it would fall into the same line of reasoning.  Would I consider my pregnancy (singleton) to be a spotaneous pregnancy because I didn't have any fertility treatments to get pregnant?  It just sounds bizarre to me to word it like that.  How else would you word it besides saying I got pregnant naturally?  Now my head is spinning a little thinking about all of this and the use of natural vs. not when it comes to getting pregnant!  Big Smile

    DS born via c/s 11/08 and med-free GD VBAC DD 3/11! Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • Loading the player...
  • image Mrs_Liberto:

    That's really cool and all, but please learn to use proper terminology about multiples. The term is "spontaneous" triplets, not natural.

    It's pretty offensive to women whose multiples are due to ART (assisted reproductive technology like IVF, IUI, etc) to hear that their kids aren't "natural". 

    Confused 

    promised myself I'd retire when I turned gold, and yet here I am
  • image fredalina:
    What's so stupid about all this is how the word "natural" is being bastardized here. Guess what? Your kids weren't conceived "naturally". Unless you live in the buff, in the wild, and don't use tools of any kind (and since you're on a computer, I'm betting this doesn't apply), you aren't "natural". And I don't care if you have a hospital birth, a home birth, a cesaerian birth, etc... unless your baby is born outdoors with no trained professional present, not even boiled water, your birth won't be "natural" either.

    But it's okay to say an indoor birth with a midwife is "natural" but the conception isn't if it required a doctor's assistance.

    Yes 

    <a href="http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=HTML&utm_campaign=tickers" title="Parenting Tips"><img src="http://global.thebump.com/tickers/ttec24a.aspx" alt=" Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker" border="0" /></a>


    Women are angels. And when someone breaks our wings, well, we simply continue to fly......on a broomstick. We're flexible like that.


    <a href="http://www.spawnofsmith.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/2rxfh55.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2gxr341.jpg[/IMG]
    <a href="http://www.gardengourmet.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i47.tinypic.com/b5jo1d.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>


    [url=http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/236760]My Ovulation Chart[/url]


    "The idiots on the other boards make me feel like BOTB is a MENSA meeting. It's kind of like how Jerry Springer makes me feel better about my life." ~Bubbalini

    <a href="http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=HTML&utm_campaign=tickers" title="Parenting Tips"><img src="http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tt14e7e5.aspx" alt=" BabyFruit Ticker" border="0" /></a>
  • It came off as rude of you to blow past the excitement of the OP's point to be the great educator and correct her terminology.  It was similar to those people who respond to a post just in order to correct their grammar.  I understand why you did it, but you need to understand that it came off as rude.  Perhaps a change the way you word it could help.  With no original tone of voice available when reading a post, it came off rude and sent people into a defensive mode.

    Again, if the non-offensive term is spontaneous, I can almost guarantee that everyone reading this thread will now use that term if a relevent conversation comes up in our lives.  I don't believe that anyone's intention was to offend, which is why the definition of "natural" became important, in an effort to prove that they (including the OP) were not intending to be offensive.

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  I have seen a few judgemental comments from the NB moms, but honestly, most of the judgement I have seen has come from people who are not members of this community casting judgment on us because they assume we are judgmental about their choices.  The debate about the term "natural birth" around here gets old, as does being told that I think "this" or "that" about someone else's child/birth, when I don't.  So I'm sure that many of us will happily honor the request of the multiples/ART community in refering to spontaneous multiples and I ask that those of you from that community respect the term that we feel accurately describes us.  And please understand that in no way do we imply anything negative about anyone else.

    I do believe that this is just a misunderstanding and that no one was intending to be offensive, on either side.

  • image SillyJilly0:

    It came off as rude of you to blow past the excitement of the OP's point to be the great educator and correct her terminology.  It was similar to those people who respond to a post just in order to correct their grammar.  I understand why you did it, but you need to understand that it came off as rude.  Perhaps a change the way you word it could help.  With no original tone of voice available when reading a post, it came off rude and sent people into a defensive mode.

    Again, if the non-offensive term is spontaneous, I can almost guarantee that everyone reading this thread will now use that term if a relevent conversation comes up in our lives.  I don't believe that anyone's intention was to offend, which is why the definition of "natural" became important, in an effort to prove that they (including the OP) were not intending to be offensive.

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  I have seen a few judgemental comments from the NB moms, but honestly, most of the judgement I have seen has come from people who are not members of this community casting judgment on us because they assume we are judgmental about their choices.  The debate about the term "natural birth" around here gets old, as does being told that I think "this" or "that" about someone else's child/birth, when I don't.  So I'm sure that many of us will happily honor the request of the multiples/ART community in refering to spontaneous multiples and I ask that those of you from that community respect the term that we feel accurately describes us.  And please understand that in no way do we imply anything negative about anyone else.

    I do believe that this is just a misunderstanding and that no one was intending to be offensive, on either side.

    Awesome 

    image
    Elizabeth 5yrs old Jane 3yrs old
    image


  • image SillyJilly0:

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  

    Personally - I lurk on this board.  I'd love to have a "natural birth" with a midwife in a birth center but hey, it's just not going to happen.  Between pre-existing high blood pressure, asthma, and twins... the midwives here won't touch me with a ten foot pole.  And no, I'm not willing to home birth.

    I'd like to get the most "natural birth" that I can, but the more I lurk here... the more I don't think I'll fit in on this board to get advice without people being judgmental at me.  Between using ART, needing a hospital birth, wanting to fully vax and not being anti-medical establishment - I'm just never going to be accepted here as being "natural" enough to fit in with the cool kids. 

    Maybe what I'm trying to say is... yeah this must have been cross posted, but not everyone who posted came here to beat up on you - some of us were geniunely offended - especially by the attitude given back to those of us who said, "Hey, that's offensive." 

    Husband has cystic fibrosis. I'm a carrier. We did TESE, IVF, ICSI, and PGD. After two failed IVFs, we were blessed with our twins.

    Lilypie Premature Baby tickers
  • image miesl:
    image SillyJilly0:


    I'd like to get the most "natural birth" that I can, but the more I lurk here... the more I don't think I'll fit in on this board to get advice without people being judgmental at me.  Between using ART, needing a hospital birth, wanting to fully vax and not being anti-medical establishment - I'm just never going to be accepted here as being "natural" enough to fit in with the cool kids. 

    I disagree with this. I birthed in a hospital and used nitrous oxide. For any future pregnancies I fully intend to birth in a hospital again. I may or may not use the gas. We fully vaccinate out child.

    I come here because I like the discussion and debate.

    Maybe the "cool kids" snigger behind my back at me, but I've never felt judged here.

    Like any group, there is a range of attitudes and how people interpret and apply the philosophical ideas to their own experiences.

    I think this board has a real spectrum of experiences of and approaches to "natural" birth. 

    image
    Elizabeth 5yrs old Jane 3yrs old
    image


  • image SillyJilly0:

    It came off as rude of you to blow past the excitement of the OP's point to be the great educator and correct her terminology.  It was similar to those people who respond to a post just in order to correct their grammar.  I understand why you did it, but you need to understand that it came off as rude.  Perhaps a change the way you word it could help.  With no original tone of voice available when reading a post, it came off rude and sent people into a defensive mode.

    Again, if the non-offensive term is spontaneous, I can almost guarantee that everyone reading this thread will now use that term if a relevent conversation comes up in our lives.  I don't believe that anyone's intention was to offend, which is why the definition of "natural" became important, in an effort to prove that they (including the OP) were not intending to be offensive.

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  I have seen a few judgemental comments from the NB moms, but honestly, most of the judgement I have seen has come from people who are not members of this community casting judgment on us because they assume we are judgmental about their choices.  The debate about the term "natural birth" around here gets old, as does being told that I think "this" or "that" about someone else's child/birth, when I don't.  So I'm sure that many of us will happily honor the request of the multiples/ART community in refering to spontaneous multiples and I ask that those of you from that community respect the term that we feel accurately describes us.  And please understand that in no way do we imply anything negative about anyone else.

    I do believe that this is just a misunderstanding and that no one was intending to be offensive, on either side.

    Wow, sanctimonious lecture from a newb, much?

    FTR, I have been an active member of this board since day 1. Further, I am only stating a fact, further verified by other people who are coming from a lot of different boards, that the use of the term "natural" as applied to conception of multiples, is offensive. That is a fact. People find that term offensive. There is no debate about that fact. And if you think me stating that fact is "rude" then you really need to get out more. As several of us have said OVER AND OVER, if anyone walked up and called your child a retard, you would be vehemently opposed. Correcting someone's use of an offensive term, no matter what that term is, is par for the course on the Nest. Tough shyt if you think that's rude. 

    My comment was NEVER a debate about what is natural birth or not. If you had the reading comprehension of a gnat, you'd realize that when BalancingJane asked "is it offensive that this board is called Natural Birth" I responded with The fact that this board is called Natural Birth has bugged a lot of people. Just because someone chooses to have an epi does not make their birth any less "natural". I think there was a proposal a few months ago to change the name to the Med-Free birthing board or something along those lines, but nothing came of it. It has been determined over and over and OVER again that if you ask 20 people what their definition of Natural Birth is, you'll get 20 answers. FINE. WHO CARES. It's a pointless debate that never goes anywhere and there's really no need to debate it when it's totally subjective.

    HOWEVER. Something that is NOT subjective is the vast majority of MoMs, IFers, and Adopters being sick and tired of offensive language and the scoffing and mocking of their feelings, which is exactly what was done here. (ie "Be a wee bit less sensitive next time!" or "If I had a naturally conceived baby, I'd be offended if someone called it spontaneous!!"as if using ART is something to be ashamed of or offended by--that was never answered, btw) Both of those comments are utter bullshit.

    I also cannot believe that your answer is to tell the IF community, who has already gone through SO much,  that they should be MORE sensitive to the asshats who make ridiculous, insensitive comments about US so WE don't offend anyone? Give me a fvcking break. We spend our lives walking on egg shells. The least someone could do would be to have a modicum of compassion and think before they speak in such an offensive manner. 

    And then you go on to tell me that it is "illogical" to be offended by the OP's comment?  Being told that your child is unnatural is CERTAINLY a logical reason to be offended by something. But again, this wasn't about me personally being offended or not--I was only stating a fact--until YOU and several others made it so. I stated a fact: People get offended by applying that word to a child(or children). YOU and a few other ignorant people (such as RoseTor and Christina and RidesButtons-- who apparently is such an imbecile she can't even respond with anything further than an eye-rolling emoticon) essentially told every MoM and IFer to get over themselves and that their reactions were petty and childish and unwarranted. YOU belittled us. And you've also ignored the half a dozen other women who've agreed with me that the terminology is offensive.

    So thank you for pointing out to me that *I* am rude. I'll keep on being rude, if it means that people get the memo out to at least a few people how hurtful that particular phrase can be, and how blatantly heartless and callous some of the other comments in this thread were too. You can take your "we on the NB board" backpedal and take it back to where ever it was YOU came from. Because I'm pretty sure I'll be sticking around here for quite awhile, if only to point out to other IFers that the entire board isn't full of sanctimonious, insensitive loons like yourself.

     

     

    [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/dw2pu8.jpg[/IMG]
  • image KateLouise:
    image miesl:

    I'd like to get the most "natural birth" that I can, but the more I lurk here... the more I don't think I'll fit in on this board to get advice without people being judgmental at me.  Between using ART, needing a hospital birth, wanting to fully vax and not being anti-medical establishment - I'm just never going to be accepted here as being "natural" enough to fit in with the cool kids. 

    I disagree with this. I birthed in a hospital and used nitrous oxide. For any future pregnancies I fully intend to birth in a hospital again. I may or may not use the gas. We fully vaccinate out child.

    I come here because I like the discussion and debate.

    Maybe the "cool kids" snigger behind my back at me, but I've never felt judged here.

    Like any group, there is a range of attitudes and how people interpret and apply the philosophical ideas to their own experiences.

    I think this board has a real spectrum of experiences of and approaches to "natural" birth. 

    Yeah, ditto this. The vast majority of the women here are pro-vax and then they all vary on degrees of what they define as "natural birth" from there. You're welcome to come drink the hippie koolaid, and I can guarantee that most of the regs don't take kindly to the heartless BS that has been rampant in this thread.

    I just tend to laugh at the irony: I'm going to need every medical intervention in the book to get pregnant and then I'm going to run and hide from intervention and deliver in a kiddie pool in my living room (assuming I get KU). Hehe.

    [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/dw2pu8.jpg[/IMG]
  • To the poster stating she wasn't sure she'd be welcome here, I'd have to say stick around. When debates/posts like this spring up, on any board, it brings that board (and unfortunately everyone on it) into a negative light. I've found, though, for the most part, this board to be relatively drama-free (the way I like it!). I think you'll find a HUGE range of women and experiences- even women who are not able to or change their minds about having a "natural or med free" birth take part in discussions and share birth stories. There are extremes on every board but it doesn't mean we're all un-vaxinating, squatting in a field, hippie granola people. We've had vbac moms here, ap moms, gas only moms, epi moms, water birth moms, etc....everyone is welcome in my opinion.

    I know as humans it's in our nature to judge, but I think on this board, most of us would agree we KNOW what it's like to feel judged for our choices and it's not a good feeling. I realize those dealing with struggles to get pregnant or who do get pregnant through medical assistance have their own very real feelings and are surely judged as well irl and here.

    I agree with the posters who said they would know for the future- I will know that "natural" multiples is an offensive term and will use "spontaneous" instead. As always, when there's something, there's an opposite to it. That's the truth, the reality. The opposite of natural is unnatural. That said, it doesn't spring to my mind when I hear the word natural. When I say med-free that means to me, no meds. When I hear someone say "natural" birth I usually think more detailed, as in little to no intervention, or crooning music or candles or a birthing tub or a midwife, a homebirth, etc....I know that might not make sense but I don't think "as nature intended". I just picture a more detailed birth plan. If someone has a hospital birth, is it the way nature intended? Well, no. But neither was my birth center birth where I labored in the shower and tub mostly. I'm pretty sure nature didn't invent those things. I'm pretty sure nature didn't invent the doppler that checked my baby's heartrate or the ambulance that transferred us to the hospital. So in some peoples eyes, I did NOT have a natural birth. That's fine with me.

    Anyway, sorry to those that were offended. I think most of us would agree we like to keep a drama free board and hate to come off as judgemental because like I said, we are so used to being judged for our choices- I'm sure MOST moms feel like that at some time or another, from people on a message board, to strangers in the street, to our very own friends and family, which is too bad.  

     

    image
    Loss #1 2008, Loss #2 2010, Loss #3 2011, Loss #4 2012, Loss #5 2012
    Loss #6 2014 Loss #7 (chemical) 2014

    ~DS Born! 2009~
    ~DD Born! 2013~
    ~DD due! 2015~





  • For the record, I don't really care how long you've been on this board, I don't think message board membership makes anyone's point more valid, that sounds like jr high stuff.  And I find your use of the word sanctimonious in that last post quite ironic.

    Look, you missed the whole point of what I've said.  I understand, as does everyone else on this post, that the term "natural" when applied to multiples is an offensive term.  I haven't ignored the other women.  This is, in fact, the 3rd time that I have said I would not use that term if it came up in my life.  I would know to call them spontaneous multiples- that is the acceptable term in that community.  I GET THAT and am more than happy to oblige because I would not want to offend.  My point was that no one on this board was meaning to be offensive.  I won't get into it again, but the OP did not call your child unnatural.  She simply didn't know there was an unacceptable term and used a word that made sense in her head.  We all now understand that that term is offensive, but she intended no malice.  As for me, it drives me crazy when there is a debate about the term "natural birth" on this board, so perhaps in my ignorance, I began to defend the use of the word natural, without realizing that the term in question was actually "natural multiples."  This was from my own bias & experience in being called bad things on this board because I refer to my birth as natural.  But in no way did I mean to be offensive to the moms of multiples.  I didn't not mean to defend the use of an offensive term.  If that is how any of you moms feel, I apologize for offending you, sincerely.

    I understand now the intensely personal struggle that this term creates.  I understand your desire to correct it.  However, I still see your first comment as rude.  I think that changing your wording would help your "memo" be better received.

    And I am not telling the ART community to be more sensitive to me.  I am simply asking for a mutual respect.  I am happy to respect the terms that are deemed acceptable and would ask for the same respect in the term natural birth.  I'm sorry, but you have no idea what any of us have been through and to just assume that you deserve more respect because of all you've been through is ridiculous.  I have a very good friend who has unsuccessfully struggled with IF for 8 years and is currently on the adoption route.  I have cried with her, prayed with her, donated to her adoption fund and absolutely could not be happier for her recent referral & acceptance of a beautiful baby girl.  Its true that I haven't been there myself but I have immense respect and compassion for all that she's been through, and anyone like her.  I am hyper aware to try not to offend her.  But, just because I haven't been in that exact situation doesn't mean that I am not respectable.

  • image miesl:
    image SillyJilly0:

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  

    Personally - I lurk on this board.  I'd love to have a "natural birth" with a midwife in a birth center but hey, it's just not going to happen.  Between pre-existing high blood pressure, asthma, and twins... the midwives here won't touch me with a ten foot pole.  And no, I'm not willing to home birth.

    I'd like to get the most "natural birth" that I can, but the more I lurk here... the more I don't think I'll fit in on this board to get advice without people being judgmental at me.  Between using ART, needing a hospital birth, wanting to fully vax and not being anti-medical establishment - I'm just never going to be accepted here as being "natural" enough to fit in with the cool kids. 

    Maybe what I'm trying to say is... yeah this must have been cross posted, but not everyone who posted came here to beat up on you - some of us were geniunely offended - especially by the attitude given back to those of us who said, "Hey, that's offensive." 

    In my humble opinion, you do fit in here.  What I respect more than anything in the pregnancy/birth arena is reseraching and learning about your options. What drives me crazy is the women on TLC's A Baby Story who get in the L&D room and have no idea what pitocin even is as they're sending it through her bloodstream.  It's clear you have done your research and weighed your options.  In my opinion, using ART is neither here nor there on this board (and earlier in this thread where I stated that many here try to have a natural pregnancy as well as birth, just to clarify, I meant stay away from unnecessary meds, eat natural foods,etc. during pregnancy, and was NOT at all referring to the means in which you got pregnant).  I also was required to deliver in a hospital with an OB because of a possible blood disorder in DS.  I would've also rather had a midwife, but it just wasn't in the cards for me and I was lucky to have a successful med-free "natural" delivery.  I also wasn't willing to risk a homebirth.  As I learn more about the specifics of this pregnancy and LO's risk factors, I will make the decisions about hospital/OB vs birthing center/midwife.  I also fully vaccinate.  So there really is a variety here and I honestly do hope you stick around.  I think the ladies will be a really good resource to you.  And I think that the moms of multiples who go naturally are complete and utter rockstars, just for the record.

  • "And then you go on to tell me that it is "illogical" to be offended by the OP's comment?  Being told that your child is unnatural is CERTAINLY a logical reason to be offended by something."

    This is the point. Whether referring to natural multiples, natural conception, or natural birth, NO ONE is calling the CHILD unnatural. I personally don't understand why it gets taken there.

    If you have an epi, and I say it's not a natural birth, did I say your child is unnatural? No, what I stated was that your BIRTH was not natural. Same logic can be applied to how the triplets were "made." No one is referring to the children, just the method.

    Chelsea; 7/22/2005 Carissa; 4/9/2011 Cassidy; 9/6/2012
    Baby #4; 7/7/2018
  • This is getting really old.....

    To the OP....I still think it's really cool! reminds me of that Chase credit card commercial where the wife spends all this money for three of everything and her husband passes out on the floor. She just looked so blissful.

    The Knot won't share my Bump Siggy, so here's the low-down: 4/27/07 - Got engaged! 8/31/08 - Got married (to my best friend)! 12/30/08 - Got Pregnant! 9/3/09 - Welcome to the world, Elias Solomon! 8/16/10 - Got Pregnant, again! 5/14/11 - Welcome to the world, Talia Hadassah! 1/14/12 - Ready or not, here comes #3 (EDD 9/27/12)
  • image ~adamwife~:
    image Mrs_Liberto:

    That's really cool and all, but please learn to use proper terminology about multiples. The term is "spontaneous" triplets, not natural.

    It's pretty offensive to women whose multiples are due to ART (assisted reproductive technology like IVF, IUI, etc) to hear that their kids aren't "natural". 

    Now I've heard it all.

    Touch?

    My best friend, my husband, my everything
    Matthew Kevin
    7/31/83-7/20/11 image
    Met 1/8/00
    Engaged 4/21/06
    Married 9/29/07
    Two beautiful legacies: Noah Matthew (2 yrs) and Chloe Marcella (8 mos)
    Day Three
  • image cynnnabun:

    "And then you go on to tell me that it is "illogical" to be offended by the OP's comment?  Being told that your child is unnatural is CERTAINLY a logical reason to be offended by something."

    This is the point. Whether referring to natural multiples, natural conception, or natural birth, NO ONE is calling the CHILD unnatural. I personally don't understand why it gets taken there.

    If you have an epi, and I say it's not a natural birth, did I say your child is unnatural? No, what I stated was that your BIRTH was not natural. Same logic can be applied to how the triplets were "made." No one is referring to the children, just the method.

    I'm normally only a poster on TTGP, but I thought I would share my thoughts:

    "Not natural" has negative connotations. Just like "retarded" has negative connotations. Saying natural & unnatural is showing that one side is positive and the other side is negative, therefor implying one is better than the other. Saying Med-free birth & medicated birth shows that both sides can be viewed as positive. "Spontaneous" has much more positive connotations than "unnatural".  For a win-win, go for the phrase that has positive connotations for both sides.

    [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/r2jjet.jpg[/IMG]

    <a href="http://lilypie.com/"><img src="http://lb1f.lilypie.com/BwjMm4.png" width="400" height="80" border="0" alt="Lilypie First Birthday tickers" /></a>
  • lurking...and lmao at this argument.  Thicker skin is in order for some you hyper-defensive ART/MoM/persnickety ladies.  OP meant no offense.  The responder who called her out may have done better by saying "actually the medical term is spontaneous...some of us who have had trouble conceiving prefer it be called that, but yeah, cool phenomena!".  Instead of getting panties in a bunch. 
  • image christina1776:
    Yesterday at my midwife office i met a mom-to-be who just found out that she is expecting 100% natural triplets!  That is just so rare... she said something like 1 in 280,000 i think!  I can't imagine being in her shoes!  And the U/S tech didn't even tell her... she just got a call "you have a multiple pregnancy"  She and the father are overwhelmed, naturally!  

    This is offensive to people who become overwhelmed through the assistance of science and technology.  Please rephrase to say, "She and the father are overwhelmed, spontaneously!"  in the future.

  • image RoseTor:
    image KateLouise:

    image christina1776:
    To me natural is something "nature" does without assistance from technology, so i wish those who benefit from assistance could simply be thankful that the medical and scientific technology is available to help them achieve something that they could not or had not "naturally", and not get up tight about statements of truth which are not in any way shape or form intended to say anything negative to them or anyone else.

    this is how i view it too.

     

    Yes  I agree.  And I don't think Christina is meaning to call actual children "unnatural."  Just the method of concieving was not natural.  And for the record - if I was pregnant with multiple babies and that happened naturally, I'd be really offended if someone told me I should call it "spontaneous" rather than natural.

    I agree... maybe I planned to have triplets. I think calling a pregnancy spontaneous is far more offensive than saying natural when not referring to artificial insemination.

    Spontaneous sounds like a teen who accidentally got knocked up in the hot tub even though they didn't really have sex.

    ETA: Why is natural offensive and artificial not?

  • image ~adamwife~:

    image christina1776:
    Yesterday at my midwife office i met a mom-to-be who just found out that she is expecting 100% natural triplets!  That is just so rare... she said something like 1 in 280,000 i think!  I can't imagine being in her shoes!  And the U/S tech didn't even tell her... she just got a call "you have a multiple pregnancy"  She and the father are overwhelmed, naturally!  

    This is offensive to people who become overwhelmed through the assistance of science and technology.  Please rephrase to say, "She and the father are overwhelmed, spontaneously!"  in the future.

    ::dead::

  • image ~adamwife~:

    image christina1776:
    Yesterday at my midwife office i met a mom-to-be who just found out that she is expecting 100% natural triplets!  That is just so rare... she said something like 1 in 280,000 i think!  I can't imagine being in her shoes!  And the U/S tech didn't even tell her... she just got a call "you have a multiple pregnancy"  She and the father are overwhelmed, naturally!  

    This is offensive to people who become overwhelmed through the assistance of science and technology.  Please rephrase to say, "She and the father are overwhelmed, spontaneously!"  in the future.

    ::dead::

    I'm sorry... it's funny.

    My best friend, my husband, my everything
    Matthew Kevin
    7/31/83-7/20/11 image
    Met 1/8/00
    Engaged 4/21/06
    Married 9/29/07
    Two beautiful legacies: Noah Matthew (2 yrs) and Chloe Marcella (8 mos)
    Day Three
  • image SillyJilly0:

    It came off as rude of you to blow past the excitement of the OP's point to be the great educator and correct her terminology.  It was similar to those people who respond to a post just in order to correct their grammar.  I understand why you did it, but you need to understand that it came off as rude.  Perhaps a change the way you word it could help.  With no original tone of voice available when reading a post, it came off rude and sent people into a defensive mode.

    Again, if the non-offensive term is spontaneous, I can almost guarantee that everyone reading this thread will now use that term if a relevent conversation comes up in our lives.  I don't believe that anyone's intention was to offend, which is why the definition of "natural" became important, in an effort to prove that they (including the OP) were not intending to be offensive.

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  I have seen a few judgemental comments from the NB moms, but honestly, most of the judgement I have seen has come from people who are not members of this community casting judgment on us because they assume we are judgmental about their choices.  The debate about the term "natural birth" around here gets old, as does being told that I think "this" or "that" about someone else's child/birth, when I don't.  So I'm sure that many of us will happily honor the request of the multiples/ART community in refering to spontaneous multiples and I ask that those of you from that community respect the term that we feel accurately describes us.  And please understand that in no way do we imply anything negative about anyone else.

    I do believe that this is just a misunderstanding and that no one was intending to be offensive, on either side.

     YES!  Thank you for putting it so eloquently! And, I wish to add, this is the reason i posted it here, in this community, and not on other boards as some PP's sarcastically suggested doing.

  • image SillyJilly0:

    What you (and the others who came from another board) need to understand is that we (on the NB board) are a community of people who have chosen to have a med-free birth & in most cases, pregnancy.  We face difficulties within the medical community as well as stigmas in society which is why we enjoy the support of a board like this.  We embrace the term natural birth, as it has been called for many years, and feel that it accurately describes the pregnancy, birth and often lifestyle we are aiming for.  I have seen a few judgemental comments from the NB moms, but honestly, most of the judgement I have seen has come from people who are not members of this community casting judgment on us because they assume we are judgmental about their choices.  The debate about the term "natural birth" around here gets old, as does being told that I think "this" or "that" about someone else's child/birth, when I don't.

    Ummmm... what? I'm mostly a lurker but read this board every day. I feel silly because I had NO idea you were the board spokesperson! Confused Please don't say what everyone on this board thinks or feels. The only thing I thought was defining this board was to shove a child out your vag with as little intervention possible as dictated  by what you define as "natural" childbirth. I absolutely do NOT embrace the term "natural birth as it has been called for many years" as you say everyone here does and I guarantee many others here do not as well. We were getting ready to start IUI when we spontaneously got pg and you know what? I still would have come here because I want to have a med-free birth. I had no idea that it wouldn't have fit your definition of "natural birth".
    photo newsig2_zps17ef14af.jpg
  • I personally love the argument that lib stomped on the OP's excitement.

    Ummm, she ran into some woman at her dr.'s office who was pregnant with triplets.  Is this cause for celebration now?

    If she had just found out she was pregnant with triplets I can maybe see that argument working (except that lib wasn't rude in her response) but some random woman?

    I met someone the other day at Publix who had a prosthetic leg thanks to being struck by lightning as a kid. 

    I AM SO EXCITED FOR HIS LEG!!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW COOL IT IS HE HAS A FAKE LEG?  OH MY GOD THIS IS AMAZING!!!1!!

    "people in that situation really prefer if you use "prosthetic leg" instead of fake"

    HOW DARE YOU INSULT ME WHILE I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT THE FAKE LEG! 

    Fuuck TTC - I'm moving on.
    imageimageimageimage
    image
    "It's a child, not a cheeto" Thanks mmariluh!
    "Ew. I've read all of two posts from you, and you stink like rotting garbage."
  • Not all that rare; I know of 2 people who have borne triplets minus any type of artificial assistance.

     Some women don't find out until the birth itself.

  • image fredalina:
    image 7river7wed7:
    image RoseTor:
    image KateLouise:

    image christina1776:
    To me natural is something "nature" does without assistance from technology, so i wish those who benefit from assistance could simply be thankful that the medical and scientific technology is available to help them achieve something that they could not or had not "naturally", and not get up tight about statements of truth which are not in any way shape or form intended to say anything negative to them or anyone else.

    this is how i view it too.

     

    Yes  I agree.  And I don't think Christina is meaning to call actual children "unnatural."  Just the method of concieving was not natural.  And for the record - if I was pregnant with multiple babies and that happened naturally, I'd be really offended if someone told me I should call it "spontaneous" rather than natural.

    I agree... maybe I planned to have triplets. I think calling a pregnancy spontaneous is far more offensive than saying natural when not referring to artificial insemination.

    Spontaneous sounds like a teen who accidentally got knocked up in the hot tub even though they didn't really have sex.

    ETA: Why is natural offensive and artificial not?

    The term "artificial insemination" isn't used anymore. Not sure if it ever was in the medical world. It's intrauterine insemination or IUI.

    The whole point of Lib's response was to point out the correct phrase and that "natural" multiples is offensive to some. SOME peole learned from it, and that's awesome. A few argued and apparently continue to argue that there's nothing wrong with the word "natural" (even now knowing they are misusing it), that they will continue to misuse it, etc. And some went off on the tangent that people who go through IF should just be "grateful" that the technology is there at all. If that's not intentionally offensive than a few of you need serious social skills training!

    To those who learned a little something and said nothing ugly, good for you.

    Fred I like you and my rebuttal is not at all directed at you. I do think the comments about "people should just be greatful" were ridiculous and offensive. Further I would never approach somone and ask them if their triplets were natural.

    But I still feel strongly that there are two sides to every argument and to say that calling their conception "natural" is misuse is neglecting to see that just because one person or one group doesn't like it doesn't make it wrong or offensive.

    I won't continue to debate use of the word because I've done so in other posts and those who have made up their mind aren't going to stop grunting everytime someone says it but I just think that sometimes you have to step back and see the other side. I understand the viewpoint that some don't like the term and for that reason I don't go around asking people how their children were conceived (plus that would be awkward) but at the same time it wouldn't hurt those throwing a tantrum every time the word is used to stop and consider normal use of the word either and that the other side might have a point too -- don't have to agree just recognize that there is a difference of opinion and right and wrong isn't always clear.

    Whoever threw out the retard example I think is neglecting to see that the problem with retard is that it is often used lightly to describe children who are not actually retarded but just acting in an undesirable way. It isn't the same because that is the wrong use of the word and its demeaning to people who actually have mental retardation. Natural can in fact mean not conceived with medical technology.

  • I just like that they are 100% natural. I'm wondering what say, a 75%er looks like.

     And yes, yes, everyone should be grateful.

     

    image Josephine is 4.
  • LOL @ "real" and "natural." Maybe the OP can define real for you so that you can just be grateful for what you have and get over the offensive terminology.

    I didn't think she meant anything by it at first, but the follow up is priceless.

    image Josephine is 4.
  • image ~adamwife~:

    image christina1776:
    Yesterday at my midwife office i met a mom-to-be who just found out that she is expecting 100% natural triplets!  That is just so rare... she said something like 1 in 280,000 i think!  I can't imagine being in her shoes!  And the U/S tech didn't even tell her... she just got a call "you have a multiple pregnancy"  She and the father are overwhelmed, naturally!  

    This is offensive to people who become overwhelmed through the assistance of science and technology.  Please rephrase to say, "She and the father are overwhelmed, spontaneously!"  in the future.

    LOL  Love you.  


    Lilypie - (ZESJ)Lilypie - (QAi1)

  • image fredalina:
    All jokes aside, this thread is ridiculously huge and with people coming from other boards not because the OP used the word incorrectly or because she was corrected for it. Someone used a word without knowing better and was the correct word was pointed out to them. No harm, no foul, until people started lashing back against infertiles (and the comment we both agree was way out of line is exactly that), attacking Lib when honestly all she did in the beginning was point out the misunderstanding and that the word can be offensive.

    I think the "retard" example may not be the best but it has some validity. I'm willing to bet many of us have said, "Don't be a retard" or "you're so retarded" or "that's so gay", etc, at some point. And someone pointed out to us that those words can be offensive. And hopefully most of us stopped using them instead of responding "Rettards should be grateful they have brains at all and stop being so sensitive." THAT'S where this thread got off track.

    My daughter was adopted. When people ask about her "real" mom, out of ignorance, it's annoying. When people ask if we couldn't have "our own" kids, it's intrusive but also offensive, as if there's something lesser in our mother/daughter relationship than if i'd conceived and birthed her. Not the case at all, of course, and probably not what they meant. But pointing it out to them is the only way to stop them from saying something unintentionally hurtful to someone else.

    That may have been all she said, but the thing is that she does it every time someone uses the word in a way she doesn't agree with be it in reference to multiples, IF or birth itself. I get that it gets people worked up but Lib also doesn't have a civil duty to point it out and then link to it around the nest every.single.time it comes up. She's the one creating the drama.

    Maybe it's just persepctive for me, but I see a huge difference in "real" vs "natural". Char is so lucky to have you for a mama, and to imply that you are some sort of secondary person in her life is absurd.

  • image Mrs_Liberto:

    That's really cool and all, but please learn to use proper terminology about multiples. The term is "spontaneous" triplets, not natural.

    It's pretty offensive to women whose multiples are due to ART (assisted reproductive technology like IVF, IUI, etc) to hear that their kids aren't "natural". 

    I totally get all of this - be mindful of the words you choose, don't ask intrusive questions, basically, think before you speak/type.  I really try so hard not to offend people and often stress out about whether I maybe offended someone.  But...I'm wondering...

    What if a couple goes through IVF and has one embryo transferred and it spontaneously splits, resulting in twins?  That would be spontaneous twins, but conceived with assistance (ART). 

    Is spontaneous the appropriate opposite term for a baby conceived with assistance?  It makes sense to refer to the occurrence of twins as being spontaneous or not (two eggs released or one embryo splits spontaneously), but to refer to conception as spontaneous seems silly. Nobody spontaneously gets pregnant.   Maybe "with assistance" vs "without assistance"?

    So OP should have said "spontaneous triplets conceived without assistance"?

    image
  • image fredalina:
    image MandyBrownNoser:

    I personally love the argument that lib stomped on the OP's excitement.

    Ummm, she ran into some woman at her dr.'s office who was pregnant with triplets.  Is this cause for celebration now?

    If she had just found out she was pregnant with triplets I can maybe see that argument working (except that lib wasn't rude in her response) but some random woman?

    I met someone the other day at Publix who had a prosthetic leg thanks to being struck by lightning as a kid. 

    I AM SO EXCITED FOR HIS LEG!!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE HOW COOL IT IS HE HAS A FAKE LEG?  OH MY GOD THIS IS AMAZING!!!1!!

    "people in that situation really prefer if you use "prosthetic leg" instead of fake"

    HOW DARE YOU INSULT ME WHILE I AM SO EXCITED ABOUT THE FAKE!!! I SWEAR, PEOPLE WITH FAKE LEGS ARE JUST LOOKING FOR A REASON TO BE OFFENDED!!1! THEY SHOULD JUST BE HAPPY THAT THARE'S MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY TO GIVE THEM A LEG AT ALL!

     :: dies ::

     

  • "If the OP had used the term "retard", I would have said the same thing. "Yo! The word retard? Mm, pretty offensive. The correct term is "developmentally disabled." And no one would have disagreed a bit."

     

    Actually it's "intellectual disability".  It's called Rosa's Law.   

  • image Mrs_Liberto:
    image csalagi:

    image christina1776:
    To me natural is something "nature" does without assistance from technology, so i wish those who benefit from assistance could simply be thankful that the medical and scientific technology is available to help them achieve something that they could not or had not "naturally", and not get up tight about statements of truth which are not in any way shape or form intended to say anything negative to them or anyone else.

    Bravo! Very well put Yes

    That's all well and good til someone walks up to a mom with multiples or a lady pregnant with multiples and asks her if they're "natural" when the asker really wants to know if you used IVF/IUI to get pregnant. (Of COURSE they're natural. They're human babies).

    It's the same thing when people ask if an adopted child is the parent's "real" child, when the asker is really trying to figure out if it's a biological child or adopted child. (Of COURSE it's their real child. Kids aren't fake.)

    It doesn't make the questions any less offensive/irritating--not to mention INTRUSIVE-- to the person who is stuck on the receiving end of it.

    My point is that people need to educate themselves on how those comments sound to the receiver, not how it sounds to them as they make the comment.

     

    100% ditto. 

    I will stop getting bent out of shape about it when it becomes ok to ask how your kids were conceived.  Were you on top?  Did you have a good orgasm?  Was it the best night of sex you ever had?  Were you raped?  Does that affect how you view your kids?

    Am I grateful there was science available to get me pregnant?  Yes, even though it practically bankrupted me and has led to a high-risk pregnancy.  Does that mean I want to talk about it all the time or that I consider my kids less than natural?  No.

    You speak like someone who hasn't gone through IF and your ignorance in this matter shows.  Take it from the people who are trying to tell you that YOUR WORDS HURT because you're not in the place to judge whether they do or not until it has taken 2.5 years of heart ache and $30k to get pregnant.  IF leaves scars that you can't even fathom.

    I cried while my twins were being conceived.  Did you?

     I don't think that you meant to be offensive, but when MULTIPLE people tell you the word you chose is insensitive, try to get the message that it HURTS THEM and stop defending yourself and telling them what they should feel.  Just say, oops, didn't know and move on.

    ETA: LOVE having people "LOL" at the pain people who have been through HELL to get pregnant.  LOVING this board at the moment.  Sorry if I'm sensitive to word choice. 

    Spontaneous triplets would freak me out because of the increased risk, costs, etc.  Would I get over the freaking, probably. But I still freak every day over my lower risk twin pregnancy that happened BECAUSE of ART.  I wouldn't be freaking like this if I were PG with one.  I'd deliver my singleton at a birth center full term like I planned and not have to worry so much about what it would be like to have preemies or at all about what it feels like to have an OB reach into my womb and pull my second baby out by the feet.

     This is what it was like the day my twins were transferred back to my uterus.  Did any of you who conceived NATURALLY have to feel torn like this or cry through your kid's conception? (Twice, a year apart.  Once on the day they knocked me unconscious to jab a giant needle through my vagina and into my ovaries to retrieve eggs from my giant swollen painful ovaries.  Again when I cried at the recently thawed embryo transfer a year later--after the first IVF failed-- not because it hurt, but because I was so upset at how medical an unNATURAL it felt.  So pardon me for those words carrying some weight with me)


  • schoolsoutbride: I can't even imagine what you actually went through.  You stated your experience so articulately, but I'm sorry you had to go through it in the first place. 

    For the rest of you, I've been lurking because while I'm planning a med-free and intervention-free birth (which I prefer to the term "natural") I've never been so disgusted as to what I've seen in this thread.  

    I was told that I would NEVER conceive without medical intervention and was blessed with a pregnancy, intervention free.  Family, friends and co-workers (who knew of my dx) all asked me "was it natural?".  I make it a point to educate, despite that my pregnancy was "natural", that it's a spontaneous pregnancy.  I refer to him, even though he's only one in there, as a spontaneous pregnancy. 

    I think it's incredibly classless for a group of supposedly enlightened and sensitive women to hear someone point out a potentially offensive term only to be told "it's definition"  and "get over it".  The conversation continues, some people get it and are thankful for the information.  Then, it comes back and becomes a big joke again.  

     

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic Little Man (4 years old---holy cow)
    He's the single greatest thing I've done in my life and reminds me daily of how fun (and funny) life can be.  He's turned out pretty swell for having such a heartless and evil mother.  
  • If everyone gets offended about every little thing that we say then we can't say anything.  If you don't like the way someone says something then don't listen or in this case read them.  No one is trying to offend anyone except maybe the person that is attacking someone for their choice of words.  I wouldn't have known to call it natural or spontaneous either.  If someone doesn't like this board being called natural childbirth then don't get on it.  Just my opinion but if we get offended by everything then what's the point of free speech.  No matter what your bound to piss someone off so you have to decide if you are going to care or not.  I choose not.

  • image andkatiesays:
    I dare you to cross post this to the multiples board!

    oh the multiples board was just told and i dont think itll be pretty. twins DO NOT run in my family.  it was spontaneous for me but it is BELIEVED that because i was on the pill and missed days and then tried to get back on it could have messed with my cycle and i could have dropped two eggs...does this make me un-natural?  

    however i dont get offended by much because bottom line, everyones entitled to their opinions...i just feel sensitivity would be nice towards women who want nothing more then a child and have troubles trying to obtain that. every child is a miracle no matter how they arrive!

    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/f0c03s.jpg[/IMG]
    [url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tt1280ad.aspx[/img][/url]
    [url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tt13a6d1.aspx[/img][/url]

    <a href="http://madlovers.blogspot.com/format_text/hyperlinks.htm">Blog Diggity</a>
  • image robinsokj:
    Go to the multiples board and say "natural."  Just do it.

    lol.  :)  ask about yams too...

    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/f0c03s.jpg[/IMG]
    [url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tt1280ad.aspx[/img][/url]
    [url=http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers][img]http://global.thebump.com/tickers/tt13a6d1.aspx[/img][/url]

    <a href="http://madlovers.blogspot.com/format_text/hyperlinks.htm">Blog Diggity</a>
  • image rebeccamiller2004:

    If everyone gets offended about every little thing that we say then we can't say anything.  If you don't like the way someone says something then don't listen or in this case read them.  No one is trying to offend anyone except maybe the person that is attacking someone for their choice of words.  I wouldn't have known to call it natural or spontaneous either.  If someone doesn't like this board being called natural childbirth then don't get on it.  Just my opinion but if we get offended by everything then what's the point of free speech.  No matter what your bound to piss someone off so you have to decide if you are going to care or not.  I choose not.

    Man, I totally agree. That's why I try to use the words fagg0t, nig***, retard, ch!nk, and k!ke whenevery I can. I mean, if someone doesn't like it, they just don't have to listen. I'm not trying to offend anyone! I'm just using WORDS. Words don't mean anything, right? I mean, it's free speech! 

This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards