FFFC 8/24

suzycupcake

@kels0091 You are so scandalous! I love old people so I am very mad at you! But I still like you  

@Swiftlet A veterinarian, that's so freaking cool! You know, I often select meat and eggs based on cage free and no hormones. For the longest time, I never considered that the animals that once were, didn't receive any antibiotics when they might've needed it  

Why do you choose to feed them non-organic feed? I'd be curious to know if the need for antibiotics decreases with organic feed vs non-organic. Also I wonder, wouldn't antibiotics be out of an animal's system by the time they are used for human consumption? I cannot say the s word. I tried really hard but it almost made me cry. Yes, I'm one of those! 

holly321

@suzycupcake, a while back, I was reading about how antibiotics are not found in milk, why antibiotics are used and that it is out of cows system when they are milking that cow for consumption.  Great. Yay.  But, that doesn't change the fact that antibiotics are overused and that the antobioanti are entering the ground through the animals waste.  
I don't doubt the animals need it, but poor farming and mass production have led to the need.

suzycupcake

@holly321 I agree with that. I am a huge anti-antibiotics fan. Not that I think it isn't warranted in some circumstances and I won't pretend that I could be like the author of that standard but for me, I don't take them. The last time I took them was right before my hsg, and wasn't happy about taking them but I was scared to get an infection since the hsg was in a hospital. I vomited twice in the bathroom before the hsg because of them. I felt really weird for a few days after. 

When I was growing up, I spent most of the time on antibiotics. I was always getting sick. I also grew up around pesticides. When I went back to IL to take care of my father last year, our family was all out in the yard sitting and talking when a truck just rolls by spraying pesticides in everyone's lawns. That's their state policy or something like that. I was so pissed about it. I live in CA now (there would be a riot if anyone tried to do that) and never noticed that growing up but holy crap! He also ate very bad food. I felt so bad because I know it was because he couldn't afford better food. IL is not progressed enough in the way of food. He grew up on a farm, ate organic all of the time but spent most of his life on processed food due to government assistance. 

I think that you would enjoy the Netflix original docu-series "Rotten". It's a season of episodes about the food industry and the different things that have gone on, but it isn't your average kind. It gives both sides and is pretty non-biased imo. 

I know that none of us can be completely educated in this nor can we freak out in a frenzy and avoid everything like the plague at all costs. That isn't realistic or practical, but I do think that we have a responsibility to be aware. Do what we can to minimize and moderate yanno? I can tell a difference with clean eating and not because I have all of this education about it but having chronic disease. I think anyone with chronic disease who starts making the effort to eat better quality foods (minimally processed, organic, raw, and non-gmo) can see a difference in their symptoms. There has to be something to that. 

As a society, we have gone from local farms and clean eating to mostly meat, sugar, and fat. I'm not saying there weren't disease problems back then with the way some things were done. For example raw milk. I've read the research on that and I get why they started pasteurizing that. I will probably never drink raw milk or any more milk in general because I believe the cow's milk was intended for their babies, but that's just my opinion and what's right for me. I certainly have seen enough evidence of it helping people so I believe that it's great for them. The goal of anything I promote is to switch back to 5% meat and 95% veggies rather than 95% and 5% veggies. That's why I like the Forks Over Knives way so much. Not because it promotes veganism because I could never do that, but it makes a valid point about the way our eating habits have shifted as a society. There is so much science about how eating veggies reduces risk for so so so many diseases, including cancer. 

Years ago, when I first heard the words 'possible MS' come out a doctors mouth when they found lesions in my brain, I geeked out on molecular biology for months to learn about where vitamins come from, how they enter our bodies, what they do, antioxidants, etc etc etc, and I realized that what we consume plays a MAJOR role in everything. It's so so important and I never knew, Nobody ever told me. I'm just glad that when I do have kids some day, through adoption/fostering, or that plus IVF, I will be able to raise them with better eating habits than I was. 

whiteswanblackswan

@mamanbebe did you read the article I posted? The naturally occurring pesticides in organic foods are essentially the same as synthetic used in non organic.

Personally, I don't buy into the whole "this or that may equal autism" because that's a scary path to go down. Yes environmental factors can be an influence but organic is not a positive enough influence to say this carrot vs that will be better at avoiding autism. I think a lot of the increase in autism has to do with the fact that we are now able to more effectively diagnose it more than anything else. Things like autism used to get swept under the rug or shoved aside with a "just get over it" view. We now know it's not something to "just get over" and are able to look for and detect it. That makes it seem like autism is MORE prevalent and happening because of XYZ.

Just my opinion.

whiteswanblackswan

@Swiftlet thank you for the clarity, I appreciate it! I love learning.

whiteswanblackswan

@suzycupcake agree, I am also wary with antibiotics. I think we get too trigger happy with them, which is clearly causing issues. I watched a great TED Talk with a mirobiologist on different, effective methods being discovered that don't result in things like superbugs.

holly321

@whiteswanblackswan

Generally, my feelings on autism are the same.  I also don't see it as something to avoid.

Both my kids are autistic, and we know the 3rd we are trying for will most likely be too . Honestly, there are difficulties (more with the comorbid issues) but it isn't that big of a deal.  
Honestly, I am pretty confident I have Asperger's, but don't see the point in getting diagnosed.

mamanbebe

@whiteswanblackswan I did and the Science American source on pesticide levels is a bit outdated but it’s a good perspective to consider. There is a more recent article from Washington Post that also gives an objective perspective but corrects the info about the levels of pesticides residue to be more accurate. 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/lifestyle/food/the-truth-about-organic-produce-and-pesticides/2018/05/18/8294296e-5940-11e8-858f-12becb4d6067_story.html

The question still remains what those residuals mean for mean for our health and I believe that less is better, personally. 

On Autusm, I encourage all to read “The man who mistook his wife for a hat”, which talks a lot about the history of research and treatment surrounding autism and other related “disorders” (I do not believe that is a fair descriptive word). The gist of much of it is that these, as whole, are not necessarily new but denied research until the 70s and 80s but also perhaps not a disorder at all, rather evolution and the advancement of humans in some ways that are very positive. I do not believe that food or vaccines has anything to do with the equation. I do think that we are finally refusing to ignore that not all humans are born fitting into the same developmental mold and should not be treated as such. 

whiteswanblackswan

@mamanbebe thanks for sharing! I'm curious to look more into it. All I've read over and over is the threshold for what pesticides organic farmers must use to get the "organic" stamp is not significantly lower than nonorganic so it'll be interesting to see if that's changed across the board. The ONLY reason I don't like the article you posted is because it mentions (very briefly, but I'm biased lol) the EWG, which I don't like at all and don't trust in the slightest. I'm sick of them doing "studies" and posting straight to the internet with zero peer-review. To me it seems like they aim to scare. Most recently, with the whole Roundup thing.

That book is on my list!! I've been dying to read it, good to know it comes highly recommended.

Swiftlet

@Suzycupcake I feed them non-organic because it’s cheaper! $15 for a bag of non-organic feed versus $26 for organic, GMO-free. My birds haven’t needed antibiotics in their nearly 3yrs of life, but of course that’s just my personal experience  

All medications used in food producing animals have what’s called a withdrawal time, which means at least that much time must elapse before that animals or its products can be consumed. If a dairy farmer has any trace of abx in their milk, the entire tank is dumped down the drain and the farmer makes NO money and is fined. So it’s really in their best interest to not have anything in their products.

My problem, like many of you, is the overuse or inappropriate use of antibiotics. It’s quite a hot topic in veterinary medicine right now, both for small companion animals like dogs and cats as well as food producing species. Human doctors are quite guilty as well. However, if an animal has an infection, which causes not just a drop in productivity (less milk, for example) but also pain to the animal, I want that animal to be treated with the appropriate medication, which is an antibiotic

Thanks for your interest guys. I love to nerd out, haha.

kels0091

@suzycupcake
I took adore the elderly and generally I give them all the breaks I can lol. 
Glad we can still be friends haha !

holly321

@Swiftlet, my concern (which may be unfounded) is are the cows expected and pushed too hard to produce, that they are getting avoidable infections.

Swiftlet

@holly321 I personally agree that commercial dairy cows and laying hens especially are pushed far too hard and as a result burn out way too quickly. And that could contribute to an increased rate of infection in part - the level of physiologic stress on the system to produce could lead to a less efficient immune system, absolutely. And the way that all production animals are housed at commercial farms is not great in my opinion either - close quarters of a lot of animals, mixing of animals from different farms in the case of beef feedlots, etc. (To be fair, biosecurity [farm to farm sanitary measures to prevent the spread of infectious disease] are a huge deal especially in the larger operations.) I think we would do more to improve the welfare of our food producing animals AND increase consumer satisfaction by addressing how these animals are raised and housed. The thing is - the cost of food to the consumer would increase, at least for a time. Some of us would be OK with paying more, but some people would rather not - or maybe even could not.

The thing to remember is (at least as it pertains to the origins of this conversation): the "organic" label does NOT mean that those animals are housed in lower density or with better welfare measures. (Just like many "cage free" poultry operations don't have cages - but have thousands of birds crammed into one huge space! So we're imaging happy chickens wandering around in a field when that is definitely not the case.) The "organic" label has nothing to do with access to pasture/fresh air, how many animals are housed in a particular space, space requirements per animal, etc. It means that they are not given certain products deemed not organic - this includes growth hormones (which are almost entirely phased out of the dairy industry at this point in the US) but also antibiotics. Where a growth hormone is given purely to increase milk output and isn't necessarily benefiting the cow, an antibiotic (when used appropriately, including only if needed) IS benefiting the cow/animal. It's job is to kill bacteria in the animal's system which is contributing to inflammation, tissue injury/disease and pain for the animal. (I agree 100% that these should not be given to an animal to PREVENT the possibility of infection, but rather to TREAT an existing infection.)

zamoraspin

Very interesting discussion re food and organic. I’m a lacto-oval-pescatarian (I eat dairy, eggs and fish, although very little fish because of where we live). I stopped eating meat when I was in junior high and a friend show me a PETA magazine (I don’t really like PETA, but that’s another story). I didn’t like the way animals were treated and still don’t. I don’t try to convert people IRL at all, but since we’re talking about it, one problem with factory farming is that animals are largely fed with food that is cheap, even if it’s not a food they would usually eat, which causes health issues.

Also as @swiftlet says overcrowding is how the growers can turn a profit, so they cram animals in and the animals get sick - which in turn requires antibiotics. Many animals are essentially raised on a diet of antibiotics throughout their lives - not just when they get sick. My understanding is that if meat/milk is antibiotic free it means the animal was not literally pumped with antibiotics prophylactically. Let me say that again - the norm is to just feed antibiotics to animals right in their food, sick or not. Farmers who don’t do that give their animals antibiotics as needed and then wait a certain period before using their milk or whatever.

For a long while the best eggs I could find were free range vegetarian but I’ve noticed that now my local stores sell pasture raised vegetarian eggs (most factory raised  chickens are fed... other chickens, which is why you might consider vegetarian fed eggs). I pay a ridiculous sum - usually about $7 per dozen, and I appreciate that I am privileged enough to be able to pay that. 

mamanbebe

Relatedly, does anyone remember the story from last year about the Skittles truck that crashed and spilled candy everywhere.. but the twist was that the candy was being sent to farms for cow feed?

https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/19/health/spilled-skittles-road-trnd/index.html

Swiftlet

@zamora_spin Ever since having my own chickens, I'm an egg snob and CANNOT eat a store bought egg! Aside from the big golden yolk (versus the pale yellowish ones of commercial layers), my shells are much thicker. And I know my ladies are happier

As for feed...cows are amazing creatures. Their digestive systems can process a ton of different things (include skittles, @mamanbebe). Their gut flora don't really know what they're "supposed" to eat - if it's providing the same basic building blocks, the gut bugs are happy. I think we'd all like to see animals living as naturally as possible but feeding "byproducts" doesn't really bother me, so long as it isn't rotten food. I actually think it's a great way to reduce our overall waste footprint.

whiteswanblackswan

@Swiftlet wow, that was just some knowledge dropped on me. I had no idea they could eat so many different things and it would be fine and didn't at all think of it as a way to reduce the footprint. Crazy! This has been an awesome discussion.

mamanbebe

@Swiftlet that is wild. Does sugar not negatively impact their hormones the way it does humans?

also I agree with @whiteswanblackswan this has been such an interesting discussion!

zamoraspin

@Swiftlet That is very interesting but also contrary to what Michael Pollan and others I’ve read say about cows. They say they can eat pretty much anything but that if that anything (like corn, which is most of what beef cows eat these days) makes up more than a small part of their diet they tend to get sick, thus the antibiotics. 

I’ve read some of Pollan’s books but here’s a snippet from a interview: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/interviews/pollan.html

Do you think he is wrong? His methods seem generally thorough to me.

mamanbebe

@zamora_spin that is really eye opening. Thank you for linking. 

blackhottamales

**lurker**
love this discussion-respectful and educational. Thank you all. 
Has anyone heard about eating crickets? Crickets have a tone of protein and their impact on the environment is very minimal. My parents live near a cricket farm. I have cricket powder I’ll add to breads or mashed sweet potatoes-it doesn’t change the flavor. 
My husband is allergic to diary and eggs so I always say we eat Vegan+meat. 

mamanbebe

@blackhottamales Did it ever make you queasy, the thought of the crickets? I am open to trying most things but I've been so conditioned to feel like their tiny exoskeletons and mushy bodies are gross. I think I would gag. We have a really great sushi place here that offers grasshopper sushi as one of their specialties, but I don't know that I will ever try it. 

Swiftlet

@zamora_spin Respectfully, I do disagree on some things.

All foodstuffs - grass, corn, etc - fit into three basic nutritional categories: carbohydrate, protein and fat. All of these are based on the molecular structure of the item. You know how water's molecular structure is H2O? Well carbs, proteins and fats all have different molecular structures, too.

The way the cow's rumen works is to ferment food items. The rumen's microbe population take a food item and convert it into "volatile fatty acids" (there are three of them) that the animal then uses for energy. The evolutionary purpose of the rumen was to allow plant material containing cellulose to be broken down over time for the animal to use as energy. We as humans can't derive energy from high cellulose material like grass because our bodies cannot break down cellulose whereas a cow can.

When we feed corn to cows, we are supplying carbohydrates that are considered higher in energy and are more quickly metabolized by the cow's rumen so that their bodies can use them more quickly. I do agree with Mr. Pollan that the reason we do this is to promote more rapid growth in animals because we want to use them for food faster. Definitely beneficial from an economics standpoint. However, feeding them corn does not predispose them to infection. The majority of illnesses that cows require antibiotics for in a production system are upper respiratory viruses - these come from being overcrowded and intermingling with cows from a variety of locations. Kind of like a bunch of people on an airplane, if you will. Their immune systems are more compromised than those of cows out grazing because of the high density of cows in an area, sharing air, with less ventilation than an open field. I do agree with Mr. Pollan that there is at least some level of physiologic stress on the body with an increased demand to produce (either forming more muscle for meat, making more milk, etc).

All that being said, I absolutely think our production systems are not in the best interests of the animals. I think we demand too much of them in a very short period of time. For meat animals, they are fed to encourage rapid growth and quick turn over, which maximizes amount of food available to the public but also profit to the farmers. My real issue is with dairy cows and laying hens - laying hens are often considered "spent" after just a year of laying while dairy cows may make it a couple of years at most. Most people don't know that dairy cows are bred every cycle - you can't get milk without having a baby. The fact that we maximize their production just runs them into the ground physiologically/physically and then we eat just them. There are a lot more welfare issues with these two categories, at least in my opinion, than in the meat industry.

suzycupcake

@Swiftlet Are you saying that the way that these animals are housed in close quarters without proper ventilation and the way their bodies are put under stress from high demand, causing compromised immune systems, is what makes them sick rather than what they are fed?

Swiftlet

@suzycupcake I wouldn't say they don't have proper ventilation - most feedlots are just huge dirt lots fenced in, all outdoors, but definitely the very high density of animals, the stress of travel from their home farm to the feedlot, the mixing of a huge number of animals that don't know each other AND the physiologic demand of producing are all very much physiologic stressors that can compromise the immune system.