Dshannah and yogah, I think being pregnant probably cements most women's prior convictions about abortion. If you are pro-choice, you imagine the desperate straits women might be in during this experience which is terrifying under the best of circumstances and you empathize . If you are pro-life, you think about the connection you've formed with your baby already at 20 odd weeks and unborn babies seem that much real and alive to you. Just my thought/
I think you're probably right: I have always been pro-choice. Just not quite so forcefully. But I had actually thought that experiencing a pregnancy myself might make me more pro-life! Because it does feel like I've got another human inside of me, and it felt like that from so early on. So it's been a little surprising (to me, if to no one else) that I've become more pro-choice.
@bookelf221 I have a video of my oldest in his cousins play princess heels running around saying he's going camping lol its priceless and cute! Idk why everyone has to lose their minds over it! I've been accused of trying to "turn him gay" "wanting him to be a girl" ...all kinds of stuff. It's stupid and I don't get it. I could care less if he's gay! But I don't believe at all that me painting his nails, taking photos of him wearing flower headbands he wanted to try on, taking videos of him in heels or letting him grow out his hair (like his daddy might I add) is going to "turn him gay". And no, I don't want him to be a girl. I want him to be himself. 100%. Whatever that means.
I was going to post this anyway but I see that Medicaid has been brought up. Sometimes I wish I was on medicaid because it always seems (to me) that they get the better treatment/ no problems. Today was prime example at my A/S. My OB sends me to a specialist office for use of the better equipment for the 12w NT and 20w A/S scan. Because I had the blood test I didn't have the 12w NT scan so this was my first time there. I arrive 30 minutes prior to my appt. time with a full bladder. There is a woman in front of me " Im on medicaid" "ok have a seat we will call you" I get up to the window and the receptionist tells me "oh there seems to be a problem with your insurance- I've tried for the past 2 days and the system just kicks it back. But I will try again. Have a seat and I will call you up" After maybe 10 minutes she calls me back up and tell me that they will just bill my insurance and if they reject it then I will get a bill. UMMM yes this is how insurance works. It took you 2 days to call them and come to that conclusion?!? At this point there are 4 of us waiting. technically I was the 2nd person there so I should be called 2nd. Nope they call the other three and I know that is all that they take back at a time so I will be waiting for one of them to finish before I get seen. By now, I am seriously about to pee my pants and head back up to the receptionist to ask how much longer and her reply was" well you were last to come" NO, i was not, there were 2 other people after me. "oh well you had the insurance problem" Obviously if I had medicaid then I would have been seen right away and not skipped. I was seen an hour after my appt. time.
I kind of think Steve Avery from Making a Murderer is guilty.
OMG can we please talk about this? I agree with you. When I finished the documentary, I waffled back and forth. Since then I've read a few things about the case that the documentary left out and now I'm leaning towards guilty.
Same! After learning some new details (no spoilers ppl don't worry) it just seems so much more likely and obvious that of course he did it. I do think the investigation was shitty and they should have looked into other suspects, but I just really think he's probably guilty. All the petitions on FB annoy me because I feel like no one is actually thinking for themselves. They just take the documentarians perspective at face value with no thoughtful contemplation or analysis of their own. I think Adnan from serial is totally guilty too, no question about that one in my mind.
QBF
I'm actually on the fence after reading new details. Part of me feels like of course he did it, but the other part feels like a lot of evidence was dismissed that presents reasonable doubt. I think the most compelling thing to me is that he was presumed guilty instead of presumed innocent until proven guilty. Clearly both his trials and the local precinct are not sterling examples of the justice system, but some of the details that have come out present more doubt about his innocence than I would have thought initially. I'm sort of feeling like he might be guilty but he at least deserved a new trial with different prosecutors in a neutral location, which is obviously not possible now.
About gyms, true story - at my old gym I once watched a really built guy stack weights, pose for a selfie, and then re-rack to a weight he could actually press.
Eta: quote box fail
Whether anyone wants to believe it or not that's usually how it is in our society. I think he should have gotten a new judge for his appeals.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
I have tons of UO regarding Steve Avery!
1. I hate how everyone is focusing on Steve. If anyone is not guilty, it's Brendan. If Brendan did do it, I believe he was bullied into it by Steve.
2. I hate how people keep making jokes at Brendan's expense. I've seen some pretty awful ones. He's below average intelligence and was duped into confessing; just because you think he's not guilty doesn't mean it's okay to make jokes about his intelligence.
3. I hate that everyone is so sure that the police/the boyfriend/Brendan's brother/whoever did it. The whole purpose of the documentary was that people are innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. A 30 second video clip where you think someone is acting odd is not evidence (and you're not a professional body language analyst!).
4. Of course the documentary is going to be biased, and I don't think anyone can say for sure he should have been found not guilty without looking at all the objective evidence, not just what was included. And stuff people have posted on Reddit is not objective evidence.
That being said, I really don't have any opinion on if he was guilty or not. I know police corruption exists, and that innocent people are found guilty. It was interesting to watch, but I know I can't make an opinion based on just 10 hours of random footage.
I hate that the victim has been completely lost in the circus of the case and the documentary.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Being pregnant has made me much more stridently and vehemently pro-Choice.
I cannot imagine forcing anyone to go through this pregnancy thing unwillingly. How fucking dare we? I mean, I'm all for adoption, but if someone really cannot stand being pregnant, how can we force her to carry a child to term? How much trauma are we inflicting? And how are we ok with that?
When I have disposable income, it's going to go to NARAL.
It's called being responsible for your actions.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Dshannah and yogah, I think being pregnant probably cements most women's prior convictions about abortion. If you are pro-choice, you imagine the desperate straits women might be in during this experience which is terrifying under the best of circumstances and you empathize . If you are pro-life, you think about the connection you've formed with your baby already at 20 odd weeks and unborn babies seem that much real and alive to you. Just my thought/
My UO is I really intensely dislike it when my friends deflate their age as we approach our late thirties. Most do it jokingly but still it bugs me. Because there is a still a sense that women have a freshness date, that we become undesirable after a certain age. F*** that.
I see where you're coming from but disagree. I am (obviously) against abortion and it has nothing to do with a bond I have with my unborn. I didn't have a bond at all with DD until she was born and it's the same with this one. Not saying I hate my child or don't want her or any crazy assumptions like that. My thought is you do the deed you don't sacrifice someone else's life to avoid your consequences. Like yogahh said I do understand incest and rape being in a different category.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
I can't stand Amy Schumer. Actually maybe a better way to put it is I am seriously disappointed in her. I don't disagree with everything she says but how she says things and her behavior sometimes make me so disgusted and embarrassed that so many young girls view her as a role model. Those actions to me totally negate her admirable qualities.
1) I don't know whether Steven Avery is guilty or not, but I do believe there was corruption during the investigation and that the trial was unfair. I cannot say he did it beyond a reasonable doubt with the tainting of those police officers even going near his case when he had a lawsuit against them. I don't think he should be pardoned, but I do think something needs to happen. "Justice" was not a word that I felt during the footage of his trial.
2) Being pregnant, now twice, has made me extremely pro-life for myself, and just as extremely pro-choice for others. Living in a low income area with mothers that drink and smoke during pregnancy and do not put their children first is a constant reminder of how some children are going to be born into a vicious environment and a cycle difficult to escape. I support women who recognize that they do not want to bring a child into this world because they are teenagers, or know they are unable to stop substance abuse during pregnancy, and/or conceive a child with abusive men, etc. I see the alternative every day. These children aren't given up for adoption. They are raised in terrible homes and stay in the same small town for generations. I have also had friends that had abortions and none of them regret it. One in particular had a terrible codependent relationship years ago with a man who is now in jail. Not having a child with him was one of the best decisions she said she ever made and never looked back.
While I would never do it myself, I would never presume to tell another woman what to do with her body. Getting pregnant isn't a "crime" that you need to serve 18 years to life for. Forcing women to carry a child shouldn't be retribution for them "deserving" it by having sex. Birth control fails. Drugs impair decisions. If a woman doesn't want to bring a child into this world for whatever reason, it is no ones business.
3) This is mine: I don't force food on my child. This is apparently unpopular because I've MIL does it all the time and I've even caught DH doing the "one more bite" thing. DD is a year and a half. She eats when she's hungry. This morning she ate a whole egg. Other mornings she only eats half. She's in the 80th percentile for weight so she's obviously not hurting for food, stop pushing food in my kids mouth!!!! Ugh.
@BuzzBee614 on yout points 1. No Netflix here...and I'm so confused by these posts. 2. This is exactly where I stand on abortion. I see too many babies born addicted to god knows what because mom wouldn't straighten up not to be pro-choice. Very seldom are those babies born in bad situations put up for adoption. They go home and live in bad situations and they have no control over it at all. That's not just "18 years to life" for the mom. That's also a life sentence for that poor child. Would I ever have an abortion? Hell no I wouldn't. That's my baby and I want to have my babies. But if that's what's best for you, then do it. 3. I don't force food on my children either...ok I guess it should say I didn't force food on my child. My youngest is an eater and a half...no trouble. 50% in weight...no worries. He eats when he's hungry. My oldest on the other hand is less than 3% so he gets the one more bite thing. He eats like a bird...some days he eats great and it's no problem, but other days he'll eat 3 potato chips and call it a day. No no kid. Come here and eat a few bites of your supper...he HATES the Pedia sure stuff so much I'd rather "force" him to eat some strawberries than make him drink that crap. Bleck. The little boy I babysit is the same way. "Eat 2 more bites and you can be done". 2 more bites, boom done lol every kid is different lol
@jessiedee13 & @ buzzbee614 I was born to a raging drug addict and alcoholic as well as a master manipulator who convinced me I was sexually abused by the wrong person. I was an oops baby that was conceived on a cocaine fueled binge. I grew up being passed around by male babysitters. Yes. I mean passed around. Sometimes we didn't have anywhere to sleep and I had to eat expired food bc that's all that there was.
I am glad I'm here. My "18 years to life" I put on my mom and she put on herself was worth it to me at least. I guess the kids that don't get that option aren't able to stand here and say that. The kids that don't turn out as well adjusted as I have were given choices as well. I don't believe in letting them get by with the "well I'm a product of my environment" bs. People need to go back to realizing they have consequences and choices in this life and stop thinking their so superior that they can make decisions to help themselves no matter how it effects others lives.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
I can't stand Amy Schumer. Actually maybe a better way to put it is I am seriously disappointed in her. I don't disagree with everything she says but how she says things and her behavior sometimes make me so disgusted and embarrassed that so many young girls view her as a role model. Those actions to me totally negate her admirable qualities.
QBF
Blasphemy!!
Not only do I love Amy Schumer, but she is the subject of my all-time favorite gif!!!
@doozer1345 Resilient children are usually not the majority. Estimates by researchers put them at about 1/3rd of the at risk population. The other 2/3 do not fair as well. Yes, all individuals have choices, but one major characteristic of resilient children is above average intelligence.
I was raised in poverty with physical and sexual abuse. I turned out fine. I have a normal life. My brother on the other hand will never be self sufficient. He's 25 with the mentality of a 15 year old. He has a heart of gold but seriously just does not have the tools to make it in this world. yes, I am glad he is on this earth, but his life will never be easy. He will never make above minimum wage. I hope he does not choose to have children because he is not even close to equipped to raise them financially or emotionally nor do I ever see that happening.
That being said, I think some kids do not have a chance. I agree with you that it isn't an excuse to be a terrible person, but that also doesn't equate to these kids being able to break the cycle. That doesn't mean I wish existing human beings were aborted. Being pro-choice doesn't mean you wish people weren't here on this earth. It means that I believe if a woman doesn't want to bring a child up in that environment they shouldn't have to. If a woman knows they are not fit to be a mother or carry a child, then they should not be forced to. If a woman does not want to carry a child for any reason, she should not have to.
@buzzbee614 I respectfully agree to disagree bc I believe wherever you got the statistics has it backwards. Especially in my experience and the environment I grew up in. There were people living my same life around me and there were more of us who were able to function normally in society than not. I do not have above average intelligence. I couldn't read well until after college when I read my first book fully through.
Being pro choice absolutely means being ok with people not being here on this earth. Whether you participate or are just a supporter. It is taking a life. Therefore making it to where they are no longer on this earth. If a woman knows she isn't fit to be a mother or carry a child then she needs to get her tubes tied, take birth control, not have sex, use protection (which I understand can fail), have her partner fixed, etc. Not have a quick fix to a consequence of her decision making. She forced a baby in her stomach by not taking the necessary precautions to make sure it wouldn't happen.
My heart goes out to you and your brother. I know it's not easy for him.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
@doozer1345 Being pro choice does not mean you wish people weren't on this earth. It means you believe everyone has the right to make their own decisions. I'm pro choice but it's not like I wish that a person does not exist. It just means that I value people's autonomy.
Oh I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'm super stubborn and refuse to change my mind so let's just agree to disagree. After miscarrying my first baby -- an embryo with a heartbeat not even a fetus yet at that point, I am so pro-life. However, at the same time people should have choices, but let's not sugar coat it to make people that don't want to face the consequences of their actions feel better about themselves by calling it abortion. Let's call it what it is - murder. You are essentially ending a life; therefore, the term murder applies. (When I say you, I mean generic you, not anyone specific) Granted, it is a legal murder, but it is still murder. Now the rape and incest stuff and doing it to save the mother's life are a bit different. But that is just how I feel about it. I realize that people may not agree with me and that is okay. Like I said, agree to disagree.
Also, while on the subject of abortion, I hate medical terminology for miscarriage. I flipped out earlier this year when I saw on my medical records the word abortion. I realize it is the medical terminology for it. But I did NOT have an abortion. I did not murder my baby. Its little heart just stopped beating on its own.
And a more light hearted UO -- we are having a girl. I think that baby girly girl clothes are for the most part super ugly. I cannot stand those fugly headbands with the big huge flower things on them. Half the time the flower things look half as big as the baby's head! They are so ugly!. All the frilly fru fru stuff is also ugly. I've pretty much decided that until our little girl can voice her preferences in clothing, that she is going to be a bit of a tom boy in the clothing department. Some pink is okay, but only if it isn't all frilly and fru fru looking. Fru fru is what my DH calls girly girl stuff.
@doozer1345 - It's awesome that you're pro-life - you have a lot of good points, but the issue comes to when people's personal beliefs affect the law, and keep other people from being able to live within their own belief system. When you say it's okay in the case of rape and incest... if it's not legal, it's not going to be legal in those cases either - even if it is, there are so many cases where women are accused of "crying rape," and would be dismissed. It all comes down to whether or not you believe women are capable of determining for themselves what needs to happen with their own life, their own body, and their own pregnancy. I could go on about the fact that there are more reasons than rape and incest in which abortion is very necessary (when it's life threatening to mother and/or baby, when baby is developing without a brain - it happens, etc.), but every woman should be able to determine this for themselves.
I totally support and understand people who are personally pro-life, but find it devastating when they limit women from making decisions for themselves when it comes to voting.
@Pascal86I agree with you that there are more reasons than rape and incest when it comes to abortion. I don't think abortion is ever necessarily ok but am less disgusted and saddened about the abortion when rape, incest, medical necessity are the reasons. We don't live in a perfect world where we have the ability to weed out those who are using abortion as a whoopsie or for reasons that should be deemed legitimately necessary. In the case of using it as birth control I don't think it's excusable. Ever. There's no way to regulate abortion unfortunately so I have taken the stance of not agreeing with it at all. I guess I look at it like the women who use it as birth control have ruined it for everyone else when it comes to being a necessity if that makes sense. I do respect your outlook on it though and agree to some degree.
I think my outlook on "all things happen for a reason" also comes into play when it comes to my stance on abortion along with many other things in life that are thrown my way. Right wrong or otherwise.
Been married since 2009. Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter) Several MCs DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
@Pascal86I agree with you that there are more reasons than rape and incest when it comes to abortion. I don't think abortion is ever necessarily ok but am less disgusted and saddened about the abortion when rape, incest, medical necessity are the reasons. We don't live in a perfect world where we have the ability to weed out those who are using abortion as a whoopsie or for reasons that should be deemed legitimately necessary. In the case of using it as birth control I don't think it's excusable. Ever. There's no way to regulate abortion unfortunately so I have taken the stance of not agreeing with it at all. I guess I look at it like the women who use it as birth control have ruined it for everyone else when it comes to being a necessity if that makes sense. I do respect your outlook on it though and agree to some degree.
I think my outlook on "all things happen for a reason" also comes into play when it comes to my stance on abortion along with many other things in life that are thrown my way. Right wrong or otherwise.
Taking the right of choice away from all because a few use it for something you dont agree with is wrong. Its like banning cars because a few speed and crash killing people.
Angel baby June 2013, DD born 22 April 2014, BFP 10 Sept 2015 - Due 22 May 2016
I know I said I was going to limit myself to one post on the topic but eh, what the hell.
From a social policy standpoint, it s well established that allowing abortion leads to better outcomes: more women attain higher education, employment outcomes are better, generational poverty is reduced, life outcomes for subsequent children are greatly improved. So in terms of social engineering, the benefits are unambiguous: allowing women to have greater autonomy about making decisions in their own lives and futures generally leads (surprise!) to people making the decisions that are most rational for their own situations. And no one is better informed about a woman's life situation than that woman herself.
From an ethical standpoint, my view is that I can never really know someone else's soul. If a woman reached that decision after long and agonizing reflection, accepting it with regret and only as a last resort, then I am not going to burden her with any more guilt than she's already suffering; at that point I would be adding needless cruelty to someone already burdened with enough pain.
And if a woman just woke up one morning and decided on a whim that you know what, she'd rather have a hot bikini bod this summer and she just doesn't feel like having a pregnancy cramp her style? Fine. She should get an abortion too if he wants one, because god knows I don't want that lady raising a kid.
Basically my feeling is that most people know what's best for them in their own lives, and it's not for me as an ill-informed outsider to make that decision for them. You choose what's right for you. If I want you to have the baby, I'll support that choice by offering money or emotional support or child care or whatever else I can do to make that a better and more sustainable option for you. But I'm not about to force anybody else out of making that choice for themselves.
If abortion is murder, then why is it ok for women who have been raped? Do those babies matter less? Are you trying to save babies? Or are you trying to punish women who have irresponsible sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term?
Actually that isn't the argument she's making: you're saying that abortions kill people (I disagree, but let's leave it at that for now), and what @avidkeo is saying is that cars can also kill people, so why take one away and not the other? So answering "cars aren't human lives" is incorrect to the argument - abortions aren't human lives either. Cars are tools, abortions are procedures. Nether are lives, if you get what I am saying.
If abortion is murder, then why is it ok for women who have been raped? Do those babies matter less?
Are you trying to save babies? Or are you trying to punish women who have irresponsible sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term?
THIS!!! The argument that abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, incest, or to save the mother's life but not allowed in other instances is completely illogical! If a pro-life advocate believes that abortion equates "murder," then it makes absolutely no sense why they wouldn't apply that standard universally to all pregnancies unless the purpose is, as @PYLWhammy said, to "punish women who have irresponsible sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term." While I can appreciate, but respectfully disagree with, a pro-life advocate's position if it applies universally, I cannot respect a person who supports forcing a woman to endure an unwanted pregnancy because they disagree with her personal decisions from a moral perspective.
@doozer1345 - It's awesome that you're pro-life - you have a lot of good points, but the issue comes to when people's personal beliefs affect the law, and keep other people from being able to live within their own belief system. When you say it's okay in the case of rape and incest... if it's not legal, it's not going to be legal in those cases either - even if it is, there are so many cases where women are accused of "crying rape," and would be dismissed. It all comes down to whether or not you believe women are capable of determining for themselves what needs to happen with their own life, their own body, and their own pregnancy. I could go on about the fact that there are more reasons than rape and incest in which abortion is very necessary (when it's life threatening to mother and/or baby, when baby is developing without a brain - it happens, etc.), but every woman should be able to determine this for themselves.
I totally support and understand people who are personally pro-life, but find it devastating when they limit women from making decisions for themselves when it comes to voting.
I don't know that this will be an UO but whatever. Now that we know we are having a girl, I'm even more irritated by the people who keep telling me we need more "girlie" stuff for her. I dislike pink, strongly. I pinked myself out when I was a kid and I don't even know why, I don't know that I liked pink it just was always what people assumed I should have. Also why do things even have to be divided into "girlie" and not. Ugh.
(This is probably just an UO among my family and friends) Also I hate that people assume that because I danced I want my daughter to dance. Actually the opposite it true. If she wants to dance, fine, but I will not pressure her into it and I won't let my family do that either. My Hubby wants her to do martial arts, and honestly, I'd prefer that. Drama will be everywhere, but I stopped dancing because of the stupid shit people were doing to each other.
@bookelf221 I told my DH before we found out the sex that if it was a girl I didn't want to tell anyone before she was born because I didn't want a bunch of pink frilly clothes.
Me: 31
DH: 29, SA - Great
Married: June 12,2011
TTC #1: 1/2014
Diagnosis: Hypothalamic Amenorrhea
Treatment: Clomid: 50mg, 100mg, 150mg - not successful and not monitored
I'm not going to get into my own views about abortion but I find the debate itself totally frustrating. Pro-life and pro-choice advocates aren't even having the same argument. One side is arguing about the morality of abortion and the other is arguing about a woman's right to choose.
I don't know that this will be an UO but whatever. Now that we know we are having a girl, I'm even more irritated by the people who keep telling me we need more "girlie" stuff for her. I dislike pink, strongly. I pinked myself out when I was a kid and I don't even know why, I don't know that I liked pink it just was always what people assumed I should have. Also why do things even have to be divided into "girlie" and not. Ugh.
(This is probably just an UO among my family and friends) Also I hate that people assume that because I danced I want my daughter to dance. Actually the opposite it true. If she wants to dance, fine, but I will not pressure her into it and I won't let my family do that either. My Hubby wants her to do martial arts, and honestly, I'd prefer that. Drama will be everywhere, but I stopped dancing because of the stupid shit people were doing to each other.
@bookelf221 I told my DH before we found out the sex that if it was a girl I didn't want to tell anyone before she was born because I didn't want a bunch of pink frilly clothes.
@AdorkablePixie That's smart! We were just so excited we didn't even think about it. We've been given a decent number of handme downs- granted they are mostly for 9+ months but luckily most of them aren't straight pink. Though some of them make me wonder what they (and the designers) were thinking.
@doozer1345 Again, what you're saying makes a good amount of sense to me in theory, but if you look at what has happened in the past when abortion is illegal, the outcome is pretty bad. If a woman wants an abortion, she'll try to get one whether it's legal or not - and when it's illegal and/or no safe resources to get an abortion are available, a lot of deaths and major issues arise because women will get one anyway.
I also have never known a single woman to use abortion as birth control. I'm sure they're out there, but I think it's extremely uncommon. Nobody wants to be in a position to feel the need to get an abortion.
As far as the "it's okay in instances of rape and incest" discussion goes, I think it's a red herring for several reasons. Most of them are pretty obvious and have already been touched on in this thread, but one that I haven't seen brought up yet might be a little less apparent if you haven't spent a lot of time working with affected women (which I have; I've been a prosecutor in Philly for going on 10 years now, and have worked on everything from sex trafficking/sex slavery cases to the worst imaginable pedophile and child sexual abuse cases. So when I write this part, it's based on a realization that I didn't come to until after spending some time with these women and learning more about their lives).
The most fundamental reason I think it's a disingenuous argument is because if we're talking about making that an explicit legal requirement, vs. a private "this is what I think in my own head, but will not impose on you" value judgment, then what we're really saying is "it's okay in instances of rape and incest if you're willing to parade that shame in public so judgy strangers can decide whether your trauma was sufficient."
First off, the lines aren't always that clear. For example: what about a sex trafficking victim who's forced to work in
a massage parlor? Not technically rape, but definitely not a voluntary
choice, either. What if the girl wasn't kidnapped and forced into
slavery, but is a 12-year-old runaway who believed a smooth-talking
30-something guy's lies? What about Jodie Foster's character in Taxi Driver? Is she
"innocent" enough? Do we really need to start trying to write rules for
those gray areas, instead of just allowing the women some trust and
letting them make their own private choices?
Secondly, even if it were possible to meaningfully institute such a rule (which I don't think it is), it wouldn't be wise. Imposing a "rape and incest" requirement means some number of women are going to get pushed out because they feel too much guilt or shame or fear to come forward, or because disclosing the crime will result in a family member -- maybe the only one earning enough money to sustain the rest of the family -- potentially getting locked up and tarred as a sex offender. Some number of women will get pushed out because they second-guess whether it was "really a rape." Some number of women will work up their courage and make a public admission and then be denied anyway because some external arbiter (very possibly an old rich man who has no understanding of their lives and little sympathy for their situations) decides they just didn't suffer enough to be worthy.
None of those are good outcomes. None of those are situations that I want to see women forced into.
I also don't want to see women feel like they need to make false accusations to get abortions. It does no one any good if we pressure them into lying because there's no other way out. Best case, the accusation is never tested and no alleged perpetrator is ever named (in which case why did that requirement even exist? Why not just let the woman say "I don't need to tell you my reasons" and let that be good enough?). Worst case, some innocent party's life gets ruined because of this puritanical need to say that only criminally bad, involuntary sex deserves clemency, and all women who have voluntary sex should be punished for that choice.
And, finally, it bears noting that all these rules and restrictions only affect poor and vulnerable women. I'm rich. I was always going to be able to get an abortion. If it were outlawed in the U.S., well, time to take a vacation overseas. But most women -- including those whose lives are most likely to be most severely derailed by lack of similar options -- do not have that luxury. So unless we want to carve out yet another privilege available only to those who can afford to be exempted from the rules, the only ethical and equitable rule is for everyone to be allowed that choice.
All I'm going to say in the matter is in regards to @Pascal86 comment. Unfortunately, having an abortion as a means of birth control is much more common than you, and many others may think. I grew up in a town with population 2,500; an EXTREMELY conservative small town in CA. Among my peers I knew of several women who have had abortions as a means of birth control. As an example, one girl I knew had four abortions in 2 years time in the latter years of high school. My best friend's twin sister who is the same age as me and whom I was close friends with growing up, found out she was pregnant not too long after I found out I was pregnant in September. She's 25, is a preschool teacher, lives with her boyfriend, and has every means to care for the child that she and her boyfriend created through intercourse that they both chose to have. As she was out having bottomless mimosas at brunch with her friends and her twin sister she decided to tell them she was pregnant but "who cares that I'm drinking mimosas?! I'm aborting the dang thing anyways". Her friends were floored and asked why and she said "my boyfriend and I want some more time to let loose before we get tied down with a family". I've heard SO many of these types of reasonings for having abortions, more of these reasonings than any "valid" reasoning for having an abortion. Happens all the time. My husband and I got pregnant WAY sooner than we had anticipated, that's what happens when you have sex, even when you're being responsible and using birth control. Thankfully, we've always wanted a family and we feel so blessed that getting pregnant was apparently very easy for us this first time around and I wouldn't have it any other way. As @doozer1345 has stated several times, I'm a firm believer in everything happens for a reason.
I'm completely uninterested in this season of Serial which bums me out because I was obsessed with the first season.
I am with you! I was absolutely obsessed with the first season. I've listened to the first two episodes of season two, and while the first episode was good, the second episode just really lost my attention. I haven't listened to episodes 3 or 4 yet, and with the first season I would drop what I was doing to listen as soon as they were available!
From an ethical standpoint, my view is that I can never really know someone else's soul. If a woman reached that decision after long and agonizing reflection, accepting it with regret and only as a last resort, then I am not going to burden her with any more guilt than she's already suffering; at that point I would be adding needless cruelty to someone already burdened with enough pain.
We have different stances on the issue as a whole, but thank you for this. The level of nastiness this debate can get to (not necessarily here) is why I absolutely hate talking about this topic. You nailed it with this comment though.
@ncm0328 - I assumed there would be anecdotes that proved me wrong, but that was really just a side note on much deeper, more important reasons why abortion needs to be legal. Like everything @Merciel said. It hurts my heart so much to hear about women who have been through so much and aren't able to put it behind them because other people demand they fit a very specific criteria based on their own personal beliefs. All women deserve to be able to do with their bodies what they know is right for themselves.
@Merciel Great post. Also wanted to add that in the case of rape/incest- it would take months to prove that a pregnancy was the result of rape or incest. Not fair to make a woman wait that long and go through a much more intense abortion, and most definitely not fair to abort a several month old fetus when it could have been done much earlier. I just don't see how outlawing abortion except in cases of rape or incest is even feasible. My guess is most women would be forced to carry to term anyway.
Re: UO Thursday 1/7
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Whether anyone wants to believe it or not that's usually how it is in our society. I think he should have gotten a new judge for his appeals.
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
BFP #2: 10/8/14, EDD: 6/22/15, MC: 11/13/14 (D&C)
2) Being pregnant, now twice, has made me extremely pro-life for myself, and just as extremely pro-choice for others. Living in a low income area with mothers that drink and smoke during pregnancy and do not put their children first is a constant reminder of how some children are going to be born into a vicious environment and a cycle difficult to escape. I support women who recognize that they do not want to bring a child into this world because they are teenagers, or know they are unable to stop substance abuse during pregnancy, and/or conceive a child with abusive men, etc. I see the alternative every day. These children aren't given up for adoption. They are raised in terrible homes and stay in the same small town for generations. I have also had friends that had abortions and none of them regret it. One in particular had a terrible codependent relationship years ago with a man who is now in jail. Not having a child with him was one of the best decisions she said she ever made and never looked back.
While I would never do it myself, I would never presume to tell another woman what to do with her body. Getting pregnant isn't a "crime" that you need to serve 18 years to life for. Forcing women to carry a child shouldn't be retribution for them "deserving" it by having sex. Birth control fails. Drugs impair decisions. If a woman doesn't want to bring a child into this world for whatever reason, it is no ones business.
3) This is mine: I don't force food on my child. This is apparently unpopular because I've MIL does it all the time and I've even caught DH doing the "one more bite" thing. DD is a year and a half. She eats when she's hungry. This morning she ate a whole egg. Other mornings she only eats half. She's in the 80th percentile for weight so she's obviously not hurting for food, stop pushing food in my kids mouth!!!! Ugh.
Edited for spelling.
1. No Netflix here...and I'm so confused by these posts.
2. This is exactly where I stand on abortion. I see too many babies born addicted to god knows what because mom wouldn't straighten up not to be pro-choice. Very seldom are those babies born in bad situations put up for adoption. They go home and live in bad situations and they have no control over it at all. That's not just "18 years to life" for the mom. That's also a life sentence for that poor child. Would I ever have an abortion? Hell no I wouldn't. That's my baby and I want to have my babies. But if that's what's best for you, then do it.
3. I don't force food on my children either...ok I guess it should say I didn't force food on my child. My youngest is an eater and a half...no trouble. 50% in weight...no worries. He eats when he's hungry. My oldest on the other hand is less than 3% so he gets the one more bite thing. He eats like a bird...some days he eats great and it's no problem, but other days he'll eat 3 potato chips and call it a day. No no kid. Come here and eat a few bites of your supper...he HATES the Pedia sure stuff so much I'd rather "force" him to eat some strawberries than make him drink that crap. Bleck. The little boy I babysit is the same way. "Eat 2 more bites and you can be done". 2 more bites, boom done lol every kid is different lol
I am glad I'm here. My "18 years to life" I put on my mom and she put on herself was worth it to me at least. I guess the kids that don't get that option aren't able to stand here and say that. The kids that don't turn out as well adjusted as I have were given choices as well. I don't believe in letting them get by with the "well I'm a product of my environment" bs. People need to go back to realizing they have consequences and choices in this life and stop thinking their so superior that they can make decisions to help themselves no matter how it effects others lives.
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
DS: Born 5-17-16
Sometimes her sex jokes are a little crass I suppose...
I was raised in poverty with physical and sexual abuse. I turned out fine. I have a normal life. My brother on the other hand will never be self sufficient. He's 25 with the mentality of a 15 year old. He has a heart of gold but seriously just does not have the tools to make it in this world. yes, I am glad he is on this earth, but his life will never be easy. He will never make above minimum wage. I hope he does not choose to have children because he is not even close to equipped to raise them financially or emotionally nor do I ever see that happening.
That being said, I think some kids do not have a chance. I agree with you that it isn't an excuse to be a terrible person, but that also doesn't equate to these kids being able to break the cycle. That doesn't mean I wish existing human beings were aborted. Being pro-choice doesn't mean you wish people weren't here on this earth. It means that I believe if a woman doesn't want to bring a child up in that environment they shouldn't have to. If a woman knows they are not fit to be a mother or carry a child, then they should not be forced to. If a woman does not want to carry a child for any reason, she should not have to.
Being pro choice absolutely means being ok with people not being here on this earth. Whether you participate or are just a supporter. It is taking a life. Therefore making it to where they are no longer on this earth. If a woman knows she isn't fit to be a mother or carry a child then she needs to get her tubes tied, take birth control, not have sex, use protection (which I understand can fail), have her partner fixed, etc. Not have a quick fix to a consequence of her decision making. She forced a baby in her stomach by not taking the necessary precautions to make sure it wouldn't happen.
My heart goes out to you and your brother. I know it's not easy for him.
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Also, while on the subject of abortion, I hate medical terminology for miscarriage. I flipped out earlier this year when I saw on my medical records the word abortion. I realize it is the medical terminology for it. But I did NOT have an abortion. I did not murder my baby. Its little heart just stopped beating on its own.
And a more light hearted UO -- we are having a girl. I think that baby girly girl clothes are for the most part super ugly. I cannot stand those fugly headbands with the big huge flower things on them. Half the time the flower things look half as big as the baby's head! They are so ugly!. All the frilly fru fru stuff is also ugly. I've pretty much decided that until our little girl can voice her preferences in clothing, that she is going to be a bit of a tom boy in the clothing department. Some pink is okay, but only if it isn't all frilly and fru fru looking. Fru fru is what my DH calls girly girl stuff.
First Pregnancy
Second Pregnancy
- BFP: 09/11/2015
- EDD: 05/25/2016
Baby Born04/15/2016
PGAL
I totally support and understand people who are personally pro-life, but find it devastating when they limit women from making decisions for themselves when it comes to voting.
I think my outlook on "all things happen for a reason" also comes into play when it comes to my stance on abortion along with many other things in life that are thrown my way. Right wrong or otherwise.
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
Been married since 2009.
Unicornuate Uterus (yes I menstruate glitter)
Several MCs
DD born 2013 (our miracle "you can't have babies" baby!)
From a social policy standpoint, it s well established that allowing abortion leads to better outcomes: more women attain higher education, employment outcomes are better, generational poverty is reduced, life outcomes for subsequent children are greatly improved. So in terms of social engineering, the benefits are unambiguous: allowing women to have greater autonomy about making decisions in their own lives and futures generally leads (surprise!) to people making the decisions that are most rational for their own situations. And no one is better informed about a woman's life situation than that woman herself.
From an ethical standpoint, my view is that I can never really know someone else's soul. If a woman reached that decision after long and agonizing reflection, accepting it with regret and only as a last resort, then I am not going to burden her with any more guilt than she's already suffering; at that point I would be adding needless cruelty to someone already burdened with enough pain.
And if a woman just woke up one morning and decided on a whim that you know what, she'd rather have a hot bikini bod this summer and she just doesn't feel like having a pregnancy cramp her style? Fine. She should get an abortion too if he wants one, because god knows I don't want that lady raising a kid.
Basically my feeling is that most people know what's best for them in their own lives, and it's not for me as an ill-informed outsider to make that decision for them. You choose what's right for you. If I want you to have the baby, I'll support that choice by offering money or emotional support or child care or whatever else I can do to make that a better and more sustainable option for you. But I'm not about to force anybody else out of making that choice for themselves.
Are you trying to save babies? Or are you trying to punish women who have irresponsible sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term?
Edited for a typo.
Me: 31
DH: 29, SA - Great
Married: June 12,2011
TTC #1: 1/2014
Diagnosis: Hypothalamic Amenorrhea
Treatment: Clomid: 50mg, 100mg, 150mg - not successful and not monitored
Menopur 75ml (upped to 112.5ml), Ovidrel, & IUI IUI #1 8/31/2015
9/15/2015: BFP HCG - 400, 9/17/2015: HCG - 827, 9/21/2015 - HCG 3,327!I also have never known a single woman to use abortion as birth control. I'm sure they're out there, but I think it's extremely uncommon. Nobody wants to be in a position to feel the need to get an abortion.
The most fundamental reason I think it's a disingenuous argument is because if we're talking about making that an explicit legal requirement, vs. a private "this is what I think in my own head, but will not impose on you" value judgment, then what we're really saying is "it's okay in instances of rape and incest if you're willing to parade that shame in public so judgy strangers can decide whether your trauma was sufficient."
First off, the lines aren't always that clear. For example: what about a sex trafficking victim who's forced to work in a massage parlor? Not technically rape, but definitely not a voluntary choice, either. What if the girl wasn't kidnapped and forced into slavery, but is a 12-year-old runaway who believed a smooth-talking 30-something guy's lies? What about Jodie Foster's character in Taxi Driver? Is she "innocent" enough? Do we really need to start trying to write rules for those gray areas, instead of just allowing the women some trust and letting them make their own private choices?
Secondly, even if it were possible to meaningfully institute such a rule (which I don't think it is), it wouldn't be wise. Imposing a "rape and incest" requirement means some number of women are going to get pushed out because they feel too much guilt or shame or fear to come forward, or because disclosing the crime will result in a family member -- maybe the only one earning enough money to sustain the rest of the family -- potentially getting locked up and tarred as a sex offender. Some number of women will get pushed out because they second-guess whether it was "really a rape." Some number of women will work up their courage and make a public admission and then be denied anyway because some external arbiter (very possibly an old rich man who has no understanding of their lives and little sympathy for their situations) decides they just didn't suffer enough to be worthy.
None of those are good outcomes. None of those are situations that I want to see women forced into.
I also don't want to see women feel like they need to make false accusations to get abortions. It does no one any good if we pressure them into lying because there's no other way out. Best case, the accusation is never tested and no alleged perpetrator is ever named (in which case why did that requirement even exist? Why not just let the woman say "I don't need to tell you my reasons" and let that be good enough?). Worst case, some innocent party's life gets ruined because of this puritanical need to say that only criminally bad, involuntary sex deserves clemency, and all women who have voluntary sex should be punished for that choice.
And, finally, it bears noting that all these rules and restrictions only affect poor and vulnerable women. I'm rich. I was always going to be able to get an abortion. If it were outlawed in the U.S., well, time to take a vacation overseas. But most women -- including those whose lives are most likely to be most severely derailed by lack of similar options -- do not have that luxury. So unless we want to carve out yet another privilege available only to those who can afford to be exempted from the rules, the only ethical and equitable rule is for everyone to be allowed that choice.
I am with you! I was absolutely obsessed with the first season. I've listened to the first two episodes of season two, and while the first episode was good, the second episode just really lost my attention. I haven't listened to episodes 3 or 4 yet, and with the first season I would drop what I was doing to listen as soon as they were available!