Let's talk confusing vaccines

SpaceGirlSpiff

Just have to say...

Having to hear your baby cry is never fun...but you're going to encounter it many times in parenthood and for many reasons, and usually it's because you're doing something for the greater good (crying because you told them no, crying to let you know they don't feel well and need you, or to get something VITAL like vaccines).... We deal with it.  We don't let that influence our decision we have to make as parents, we don't shy away from what we have to do just to avoid it...that's a disservice.

I've heard people use the rationale that they don't want to put their babies through "pain" to get a vaccine, and it makes me roll my eyes so hard.  Yes... let's spare the babies literally a split second of a tiny needle, that the nurses are usually quick and effective at, and exchange it for possibly even more heinous and painful diseases.  Cool.  (I'm not necessarily saying that's what people in this thread are claiming they want to do, but I have seen babies crying mentioned as if it's a big deal and I just want to make sure that this is not actually deterring people.... and believe or not, I've heard it as a rationale elsewhere for avoiding vaccines)

In my experience, my baby was crying mainly because I was holding him down, not because of the needles themselves, and he was fine again after literally seconds.... You will face far more difficult things.

First time we had to do it, yeah I choked up a little.... it's natural for your baby crying to cause discomfort for you, no matter the reason, and your head makes it bigger than it is... but I knew I was doing it for his greater good and that was more important and I got over it just as quick as he did...and subsequent doctor visits with shots became easier....and now I don't even blink an eye.  It's over so quickly.

Don't worry about this so much...it's so much worse in your head.

honeybeee3

I'm not going to write a big long response because I would basically just be repeating what others have already said.

I will say, I DO NOT like taking my son to get vaccinations, it really breaks my heart. I literally start shaking and have to fight back tears (maybe I'm a big wuss?) But I do it anyway, because I know it is the best thing for him.

SpaceGirlSpiff

I'll reinforce, it's perfectly normal to feel upset when your baby cries so don't think you're a lesser person if you have trouble with it, especially at first... and everyone handles it differently.  My only point is that we have to let logic overrule the emotional reaction in difficult situations like this and sometimes people just let the emotion win and if they use that as a rationale to avoid it completely... it is a disservice.

Sounds like you wont have that problem! I just want to be clear that I'm in no way shaming having a reaction, only if someone lets that reaction make their decision for them and they refuse to do it at all just to avoid it.

And yes... it will get easier as you get used to it... and even if it doesn't for some reason, it's usually over so quickly and it's a split moment in time...and in the end you're doing a great thing for your baby and society.

I'll just assure you... after doing this parenthood thing for a few years, I find shots are a walk in the park compared to some other more difficult (and unavoidable) trials some have to deal with in this journey

Trek3

SpaceGirlSpiff said:

Just have to say...

Having to hear your baby cry is never fun...but you're going to encounter it many times in parenthood and for many reasons, and usually it's because you're doing something for the greater good (crying because you told them no, crying to let you know they don't feel well and need you, or to get something VITAL like vaccines).... We deal with it.  We don't let that influence our decision we have to make as parents, we don't shy away from what we have to do just to avoid it...that's a disservice.

I've heard people use the rationale that they don't want to put their babies through "pain" to get a vaccine, and it makes me roll my eyes so hard.  Yes... let's spare the babies literally a split second of a tiny needle, that the nurses are usually quick and effective at, and exchange it for possibly even more heinous and painful diseases.  Cool.  (I'm not necessarily saying that's what people in this thread are claiming they want to do, but I have seen babies crying mentioned as if it's a big deal and I just want to make sure that this is not actually deterring people.... and believe or not, I've heard it as a rationale elsewhere for avoiding vaccines)

In my experience, my baby was crying mainly because I was holding him down, not because of the needles themselves, and he was fine again after literally seconds.... You will face far more difficult things.

First time we had to do it, yeah I choked up a little.... it's natural for your baby crying to cause discomfort for you, no matter the reason, and your head makes it bigger than it is... but I knew I was doing it for his greater good and that was more important and I got over it just as quick as he did...and subsequent doctor visits with shots became easier....and now I don't even blink an eye.  It's over so quickly.

Don't worry about this so much...it's so much worse in your head.

Yes to ALL of this. I cried the first shot (just because ... FTM), but in reality you stick a boob/bottle/paci in babies mouth and their crying is over. It is a second of discomfort, easier to deal with than a skinned knee or first tooth. Easier to deal with than waiting an hour for the appointment to start when they are running late.

Subsequent shots and subsequent baby, I hardly batted an eyelash for. It is over so fast and they are easily distracted afterwords.

aerotigergirl

SpaceGirlSpiff said: I'll reinforce, it's perfectly normal to feel upset when your baby cries so don't think you're a lesser person if you have trouble with it, especially at first... and everyone handles it differently.  My only point is that we have to let logic overrule the emotional reaction in difficult situations like this and sometimes people just let the emotion win and if they use that as a rationale to avoid it completely... it is a disservice.
Sounds like you wont have that problem! I just want to be clear that I'm in no way shaming having a reaction, only if someone lets that reaction make their decision for them and they refuse to do it at all just to avoid it.
And yes... it will get easier as you get used to it... and even if it doesn't for some reason, it's usually over so quickly and it's a split moment in time...and in the end you're doing a great thing for your baby and society.
I'll just assure you... after doing this parenthood thing for a few years, I find shots are a walk in the park compared to some other more difficult (and unavoidable) trials some have to deal with in this journey ------WTF QUOTE BOX?-----I couldn't agree more. It's no fun (especially at that very first visit when you're still on an emotional roller coaster from all of the birth hormones), but it's a necessary evil in protecting your baby and it really is over very quickly. I'll freely admit that I cried the first time DS got shots. I wasn't embarrassed about it even then, when the nurses were trying to console me more than they were DS, because I'm sure I wasn't the first mom to find herself in tears in that moment. 

luckylady18

Please please please vaccinate your baby.

Re: OP's comment that the body can heal itself if you eat right, well, in some ways yes. You can build a strong immune system through diet (strong enough to fight off a cold or something along that level), and some people have even reversed very serious heart disease, diabetes, etc through diet and exercise alone (see documentaries like Forks over Knives and the one about the guy who juiced for 30 days - I forget the name of it). But counting on diet to cure your kid of the measles, mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox and everything else we vaccinate for is NOT a good idea. These are diseases that kids get. Kids - who are picky eaters, who wont eat anything green, or only want hot dogs, etc etc. I wouldn't count on your kid being willing or able to eat enough kale or drink enough green juice to cure whooping cough or any of these other very serious and preventable diseases.

Also, I don't plan on allowing my kid to have a play date with any kid who is not vaccinated. No thanks. Not risking it.

Trek3

@MorseBrooks awesome video. 

@luckylady18 My kids eat great, kale and spinach and all the rest, they still get sick sometimes. None of this will "cure" a serious virus anyways! As you say, diet can help a lot of things and make a big difference in your health, but if you catch a virus it is still going to run its course. It was a ridiculous comment!

luckylady18

@trek3 - yep. I do think that diet can change your health but not in this way. 

mmooki

Dd got all her vaccinations to date on schedule. I would nurse her immediately afterwards, when I was still nursing. Usually by the time we got her dressed again, the tears were gone. That continues to this day. We stopped nursing but she is still ok by the time we are dressed.

SSCmomma

Don't take advice on your child's wellbeing from an anonymous chat board. Do your own research and seek information provided only by credible sources that you can verify. For all you know the people on this board work for big pharma or some anti vax lobby and are getting paid to feed you bs. If you want opinions or suggestions then these boards are wonderful. If you want
verifiable medical information seek it elsewhere. All that said I will be doing a delayed schedule that I will tailor to my child and family based on my own research. My doctor is in favor of my choice for my family. The people on these boards are no more qualifed to tell you how to vaccinate (or not vaccinate) then they are to guess the gender/sex of your baby based on the ultrasound photo.

SSCmomma

@ExcitedMama2‌ - to be fair you should have highlighted that I said anti vax lobbyist too. I don't criticize either side for their opinions just reminding OP that they are just that, opinions.

12chachacha

There is no confusion. There's a small, vocal and misled community who are making it seem like there is confusion. I'm all for research, but know your limitations. "Science" isn't a few studies pulled here or there as "evidence", but the totality of the evidence, considering the quality of each study. I consider myself a smart person but I'm not a doctor or scientist and I don't have the training and knowledge with which to do this. That's why I rely on those who do - my doctor, medical associations, public health, etc. The consensus is to vaccinate.

MereKrohn

The reason HepB is given at birth is because hospitals are sure that way baby gets that vaccine. In other words, they can't guarantee everyone will follow up with regular pediatric appointments and get the shots at 2 months on once they leave. If you know you will be getting 2 month vaccines and on, just don't get the first hep b.

Eyefrog

Im not sure why Hep b is given at birth or as an infant...here it is given in grade 7. Curious as to why the huge difference in timing if anyone has the answer.

longcat07

SSCmomma said:

@ExcitedMama2‌ - to be fair you should have highlighted that I said anti vax lobbyist too. I don't criticize either side for their opinions just reminding OP that they are just that, opinions.

the existence and effectiveness of herd immunity is NOT opinion.

Stargirlb

Merekrohn is basically correct. Childhood hepB infections are a problem in the US, but the only way to catch the most at risk demographic effectively is to make them routine at birth.

Getting them in grade 7 is the 'older way'.. Catching kids before they become sexually active.

If you vaccinate on schedule in the US, you will have completed all three hep B doses by 18 months old.

Bigboneded

I work in healthcare and recognize the value of vaccines. I plan to do the research and selectively vaccinate on a delayed schedule.... and I want to trust the govt buuuut they all thought asbestos was a good thing and thalidomide was okay for healthy pregnancies.... so, not blindly following their advice.
also the risk of 1:100,000 or 1:1,000,000 adverse reaction of death as a possibility makes me want to watch closer and think harder before just doing it.

Vaccines are a controversial subject, like home births and a couple other topics. For pp's peace of mind, we have no problem with the oral polio vaccine in school age children :-)

cclfc

This is a hot topic. I'm not telling anyone what to do, but in the US, we had all but eradicated infectious disease. Now it's coming back because of misinformation about vaccinations. Yes, people in first world countries can die from infectious disease. You don't need to follow the exact vacc schedule that's proposed- you can spread them out if you prefer. (That just means more trips to the doc). Educate yourself and talk to your pediatrician to make your decision (And educating yourself means reading medical journals -NOT articles written by celebs or "healthy living blogs") ETA: in case it's not clear, it's a no brainer to me. I'm pro-vaccination. The science is there. But again, I'm not in any place to tell anyone else what to do.

cclfc

Also, herd immunity only works if EVERYONE else around you is vaccinated. So the more unvaccinated children there are (who interact at school, on the playground and in the neighborhood) the lower the herd immunity for that population. It's not to be relied upon.

LuckyPenny1231

southernyankeegirl said:

I just had a very long talk with a friend who is one of the smartest NICU doctors ever, IMO (fellowship at one of the top 5 programs in the country), and asked all about hep b and vitamin k and eye ointment and heel pricks.

Vitamin K can prevent internal bleeding which can go undetected and kill a baby. Rare, but very serious and preventable. Side effects are pretty much none - I am doing it.

Eye ointment is like any antibiotic ointment you'd put on a kid's cut - it isn't systemic antibiotics. I am really hesitant to over use oral antibiotics, but an ointment only kills bacteria on the surface, in this case preventing blindness for a majority of cases where it would have otherwise occurred if baby happened to be exposed to certain bacteria. I am doing it.

Heel pricks are used to determine several really serious (though rare) conditions that otherwise undetected and untreated could have serious or deadly consequences. Only impact to baby is a quick prick of a needle. Sold - I am doing it.

Hep b is the only one I may choose to wait a week on, as long as I test negative myself (which I am sure I will). Baby will get the shot, but I am still exploring why it needs to be done at the hospital so soon after birth if mother tests negative. But I WILL get it, and quickly - just not sure if immediately or his first check up.

Once I nail down which ped we are going with, I will defer to them. After all, their years and years of medical training and experience trumps my internet research any day, IMO.

Exactly what I did last time and will do again. They only thing I didn't do was the hep b in the hospital. DD got the vaccine, but through her pedi, not at the hospital right after birth. All other vaccines have been on schedule (including flu shots)

bunchiemarie

I'm an NP, DH is an MD. We will vaccinate this LO. We also specifically chose a peds practice that only accepts families who will vaccinate their children AND on the AAP schedule. Not up for any debate here.

letsgox

Bigboneded said:

I work in healthcare and recognize the value of vaccines. I plan to do the research and selectively vaccinate on a delayed schedule.... and I want to trust the govt buuuut they all thought asbestos was a good thing and thalidomide was okay for healthy pregnancies.... so, not blindly following their advice.
also the risk of 1:100,000 or 1:1,000,000 adverse reaction of death as a possibility makes me want to watch closer and think harder before just doing it.

Vaccines are a controversial subject, like home births and a couple other topics. For pp's peace of mind, we have no problem with the oral polio vaccine in school age children :-)

I'm confused at the govt mention here. The AAP is who recommends vaccinations and schedules. The physician who came up with "alternately scheduled vaccines" has admitted he did not have scientific reasoning behind the schedule.

A baby is to receive 14 vaccines in the first year of life, which breaks down to 160 immunologic components. A SINGLE bacterium that a baby contracts from the environment can contain up to 6,000 immunologic components. So, theoretically, an infant could respond to 10,000 vaccines at once without being overwhelmed. -- info from JAAPA.

Eyefrog

CrazyMonkeyBear said:

Eyefrog said:

Im not sure why Hep b is given at birth or as an infant...here it is given in grade 7. Curious as to why the huge difference in timing if anyone has the answer.

Are you in the U.S? When I was in 6th grade, certain states implemented the requirement: The full round of shots for Hep B is to be given before the start of 7th grade or the student wouldn't be allowed to continue.

No, I am on Ontario and wondered why the hep b is given as an infant as they aren't given here until grade 7, during the grade 7 year, and you can still opt out of it if you want to but have to have the exemption form. I had it in grade 7 as did my older sons. Why is it given to a baby?

Samuelismomma

To be a nurse and see a baby suffer and die from something a shot could of prevented....well there is just no words...something your eyes and heart can't forget..The parents have to live with that too.. All I'm going to say:(

Trek3

Eyefrog said:

CrazyMonkeyBear said:

Eyefrog said:

Im not sure why Hep b is given at birth or as an infant...here it is given in grade 7. Curious as to why the huge difference in timing if anyone has the answer.

Are you in the U.S? When I was in 6th grade, certain states implemented the requirement: The full round of shots for Hep B is to be given before the start of 7th grade or the student wouldn't be allowed to continue.

No, I am on Ontario and wondered why the hep b is given as an infant as they aren't given here until grade 7, during the grade 7 year, and you can still opt out of it if you want to but have to have the exemption form. I had it in grade 7 as did my older sons. Why is it given to a baby?

The new Ontario guidelines recommend the hep b vax for infants

https://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cig-gci/p01-09-eng.php

I'll have to check to see if my girls had this done already or not! Can't remember off the top of my head.

It is given to a baby because it is possible to catch it and get liver damage or have a persistent infection, prevention is much better! An infected mother is not the only source. Infection is not super likely, especially in Canada/US at such a young age, but people travel and accidents happen. 

Eyefrog

Thanks Trek.

this pamphlet is still at my doc's office so I am confused about who is participating in the updated suggestions. my last baby born in 2013 did not get Hep B shots. 

https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/immunization/docs/schedule.pdf

caitlindenise

We vaccinate but do a different shot schedule. I think it is very important to vaccinate but I don't believe in how many shots they get at one time, that's a lot for a little immune system/body. We didn't do hep b at birth with our first and won't with our second either.

This is only my opinion. We are all good mothers that care about our children, we just do things differently, and that's ok!

Lanatir

nursesouder said:

What's confusing? Vaccines prevent preventable diseases. The ONLY thing I'll be doing is declining the Hep B shot at the hospital until a Drs appt. Other than that, all shots according to schedule.

^^We did that, too.  But mostly because they didn't do Hep B at the same time as the heel stick and eye ointment and I was sick of people coming into my room at the hospital.  haha.

That's the only one we've done "off" schedule (although apparently the 2-3 days doesn't actually make that much difference, so...).

britb618

well it looks like OP has disappeared from the thread since her first post....

ShuShubee

How about we talk about the MASSIVE mumps outbreak in my area recently because of non-vaccination. Because all of the anti-vax kids went to college, lived in dorms, and infected each other, causing the disease to spread. It shut down schools and kept kids at home when they should have been learning. How is that good for anyone? There was also a rather large measles outbreak here too, but it was much more contained.

And here I am, vaccinated for everything, even Hep A, and not immune towards MMR because the vaccine did not work on me. Neither did Hep B, but I went through the series again and just learned that I did gain immunity this time. I got an MMR booster in high school, so there is no question about whether or not I got the vaccine. I will get another MMR shot after the baby is born, but the last thing I need is some college kid with anti-vax parents getting me sick because, for some unknown reason, I don't seem to always gain immunity to vaccines. Herd immunity is real, and some people depend on it for their health and safety because they either can't get vaccinated for medical reasons or are like me and don't become immune.

aerotigergirl

nursesouder said:

What's confusing? Vaccines prevent preventable diseases. The ONLY thing I'll be doing is declining the Hep B shot at the hospital until a Drs appt. Other than that, all shots according to schedule.

Out of curiosity, why delay the Hep B vaccine until the first appointment at the pediatrician's office? Especially if you're against a modified schedule for any of the other vaccines? DS's first appointment with his pediatrician was only 2 days after we were discharged from the hospital. Is it truly any better for the baby to get that first Hep B vaccine when they're 5-6 days old than it is when they're a few hours old?

southernyankeegirl

@ShuShubee‌ - my brother had to be retested for immunity before he went to college because he had an autoimmune disorder. He effectively had zero antibodies and had to do all the essential shots over again.

It's people like you and my brother for which herd immunity is so important! If one of his classmates got him sick with a disease his body couldn't fight off, that would be a tragic consequence for someone else's "choice". I don't think anyone has the right to choose to put others at risk like that - my brother's life trumps someone else's misinformed anti-vax crusade.

aerotigergirl

nursesouder said:

nursesouder said:

What's confusing? Vaccines prevent preventable diseases. The ONLY thing I'll be doing is declining the Hep B shot at the hospital until a Drs appt. Other than that, all shots according to schedule.

Out of curiosity, why delay the Hep B vaccine until the first appointment at the pediatrician's office? Especially if you're against a modified schedule for any of the other vaccines? DS's first appointment with his pediatrician was only 2 days after we were discharged from the hospital. Is it truly any better for the baby to get that first Hep B vaccine when they're 5-6 days old than it is when they're a few hours old?

I'd like to do the first hepatitis shot when they would be reviving the second shot, at one or two months. Neither my husband nor I have hepatitis so there is no risk of baby contacting it.

I guess I can understand this. 

But from what I can find from the CDC, it sounds like there may be a risk (albeit slight) for the baby to contract HepB if he/she is being handled by an infected person with an open wound, etc (ie it's not SOLELY a sexually transmitted disease). It sounds like about 30% of infected adults (and 50% of infected children under 5) don't show any symptoms, so may not even know they're infected, so it's possible that in the first month or two your infant could come into contact with one of these persons. 

Is it highly unlikely? Sure! And maybe that risk is worth taking. Though I'm still unsure of what benefit comes from waiting until the baby is 1-2 months old to start this particular series of shots, if it's necessary to do all of the other shots they're set to receive in the first few weeks of life on schedule.

britb618

@nursesouder, after all that they go through with birth I doubt a little pin prick can really be described as a painful procedure. personally with the stats provided by @aerotigergirl though I'd think even a little pain would be worth avoiding that risk.

aerotigergirl

@nursesouder - I definitely won't argue with you there. I don't think any one of us relishes in our little one's pain at injections, whether it's right after birth or when they're 6 days old or 3 years old. (Maybe when they're older... ask me again when DS is a smart-mouth at 16. ) So of course we all want to protect them from as much pain as possible as soon as they're born and have their first hours as outside babies be nothing but warmth and safety as they adjust to life on the outside. I'm ok with that. It takes all kinds.

FWIW, we delayed DS's first HepB injection until his first doctor visit rather than doing it before hospital discharge. At the time, I was misinformed that there was NO POSSIBLE way that he could get HepB other than through sexual activity, so it seemed silly to me to do it so soon after his birth. Armed with better information, I'll make a different choice this time around.

Beauxbaton

I waited until after we were done with all his tests for jaundice to do the Hep B shot. So we did it around 1 month. Hep B is spread via sexual fluids and blood. The only person handling my new born were family and myself. So I felt pretty safe. And he wasn't sharing needles with anyone. I was originally going to wait until about 6 months, buy after talking to our pedi I changed my mind. But I will be waiting till around a month or so to the hep b shot this time around as well. We do all the other vaccines on schedule.

TXUltraRunner

nursesouder said:

nursesouder said:

nursesouder said:

What's confusing? Vaccines prevent preventable diseases. The ONLY thing I'll be doing is declining the Hep B shot at the hospital until a Drs appt. Other than that, all shots according to schedule.

Out of curiosity, why delay the Hep B vaccine until the first appointment at the pediatrician's office? Especially if you're against a modified schedule for any of the other vaccines? DS's first appointment with his pediatrician was only 2 days after we were discharged from the hospital. Is it truly any better for the baby to get that first Hep B vaccine when they're 5-6 days old than it is when they're a few hours old?

I'd like to do the first hepatitis shot when they would be reviving the second shot, at one or two months. Neither my husband nor I have hepatitis so there is no risk of baby contacting it.

I guess I can understand this. 

But from what I can find from the CDC, it sounds like there may be a risk (albeit slight) for the baby to contract HepB if he/she is being handled by an infected person with an open wound, etc (ie it's not SOLELY a sexually transmitted disease). It sounds like about 30% of infected adults (and 50% of infected children under 5) don't show any symptoms, so may not even know they're infected, so it's possible that in the first month or two your infant could come into contact with one of these persons. 

Is it highly unlikely? Sure! And maybe that risk is worth taking. Though I'm still unsure of what benefit comes from waiting until the baby is 1-2 months old to start this particular series of shots, if it's necessary to do all of the other shots they're set to receive in the first few weeks of life on schedule.

I don't feel like my babies first few hours of life need to be filled with painful procedures.

Then you should probably skip over the whole birth thing. All the bruising that some babies come out with looks pretty painful 

jennielynn+

Disclaimer: FTM and definitely not an expert. I read through this thread this morning and really enjoyed the debate. I come from a medical family and have made a decision for our baby based on a bunch of the same things mentioned in this post/comments. 

Anyways, a friend sent me this a little while ago and I thought this was WAY TOO MUCH of a coincidence not to just post for anyone curious. It is based on a single person's 1st hand experience but, I did find it interesting. I never had any of the illnesses (except chickenpox) that vaccines prevent so, 1st hand experience is all I have to go on, previously that included only my parents stories. Just food for thought, take it or leave it.

https://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/01/growing_up_unvaccinated_a_healthy_lifestyle_couldn_t_prevent_many_childhood.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

KnitPixy

@jennielynn+ Thank you for sharing!  That was a really good read.

Stargirlb

ladyamanuet said:

jennielynn+ said:

Disclaimer: FTM and definitely not an expert. I read through this thread this morning and really enjoyed the debate. I come from a medical family and have made a decision for our baby based on a bunch of the same things mentioned in this post/comments. 

Anyways, a friend sent me this a little while ago and I thought this was WAY TOO MUCH of a coincidence not to just post for anyone curious. It is based on a single person's 1st hand experience but, I did find it interesting. I never had any of the illnesses (except chickenpox) that vaccines prevent so, 1st hand experience is all I have to go on, previously that included only my parents stories. Just food for thought, take it or leave it.

https://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/01/growing_up_unvaccinated_a_healthy_lifestyle_couldn_t_prevent_many_childhood.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

This was great, thanks for sharing. I especially appreciated this bit:

If you think your child’s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it’s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines.

I am not concerned about weakened pathogens. From an ingredients standpoint, the most concerning to me is the aluminum adjuvant.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23609067

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

https://katlynfoxfoundation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012-Mechanism-of-adjuvant-toxicity-in-pediatric-populations.pdf

(sorry-- paywalls for first two. but I share these abstracts just to show it's being researched and discussed, and right now there isn't really much known about the long term effects of the adjuvants and potential long term autoimmunity. This work is being done out of UBC here by people I know personally.)