Circumcision turned Amputation

Roxycc55

CanukMam said:

This is a forum full of hormonal ladies, I would probably get flamed if I said I hated chocolate at this point ( which I do BTW)

[-(

BookitBoo

calindi said:

@CanukMam‌ - like where she quoted someone and just wrote "mind numbingly bad reasoning"? As if that's informative or anything other than criticizing someone else's view as invalid?

She didn't respond to those criticizing her. She responded as if everyone who voiced a different opinion, even if they never referenced anything she said, deserved her personal criticism and censure.

We've had several people add good points of consideration and counter points. A freaking MD commented on how elderly infection isn't super common. But StarGirl beats her point in like a battering ram, with about as much sensitivity for anyone else who might not see the world exactly as she does.

And clearly I am not the only one to think that. But good job White Knighting for her.

It's obviously because we think she's prettier than us. /super sarcasm

CrunchyMamaJen

With DS1, I left the decision up to DH, who wanted our son's penis "how his was," so I trusted his judgement. I'm now very regretful over it because I should have researched it and educated myself on the topic. If this baby turns out to be a boy, we will not be circumcising him for many of the reasons already mentioned.

Stargirlb

Yes. 

Cutting off part of your child's penis because one day, during the last 3 years of his longgggggggg healthy life, it might be hard to *clean* is mind numbingly stupid.

CanukMam

I'm not the one telling someone to STFU. I have no problem with a healthy debate! Not invalidating opinions either, your opinions are valid. We all are a little hormonal though and may react stronger, that is undeniable.

Also not white knighting, just disagreeing with @calindi . I also disagree with @stargirlb on other stuff.

Stargirlb

Guys. I have obviously been flamed. Look at me, engulfed in flames and I'm only trying to sit here casually breastfeeding my child under a tree :P

Maebb

CanukMam said:

This is a forum full of hormonal ladies, I would probably get flamed if I said I hated chocolate at this point ( which I do BTW)

P.s if you start a circumcision or vaccination thread you have to know what is coming.

I seriously roll my eyes at anyone who brings up the "forum full of hormonal ladies" when people start getting passionate or disagreeing about something. Hormones or not, pregnant or not, people are going to call other people out for views that they perceive as intolerant, ignorant, or wrong. Why do you have to even bring hormones into it?

I like people who don't like chocolate - more for me.

CanukMam

Men, its a reality. These boards are much more dramatic during pregnancy. It in no way invalidates opinions ..just intensifies them

Also, kind of a joke..but I guess I'm not on here enough for you ladies to get my humor yet

jennyhatt

@stargirlb is saving the world one penis at a time!

And with a baby on her tit while she's at it!
=D>

jennyhatt

(Not sarcastic I actually love it)

Stargirlb

And I seriously roll my eyes when someone thinks it's 'their business' what they do with their child's genitals while I mind my own business and not point out that their reasoning is mind numbingly atrocious. 

I've got da facts if anyone wants to go all "it prevents diseeeeease I had to do it" on this thread any more.  

Anyone who admits they just wanted their kid's penis to be chopped up 'just like daddy's was' gets verbal diarrhea.    0:)

Stargirlb

Anyone eat the foreskin after? All those severed nerve endings are nutritious I hear. Foreskin smoothies, natural mamas? 

spoonleg

In my career, I've probably seen thousands of penises, both circumcised and intact (I'm a nurse, not a prostitute.) Have I seen elderly men who are unable to adequately care for their intact member? Yeah, a few. But I've also seen some stankass snipped ones, too. 

I've also seen several newborns get circumcised. I'll just say that it's not something I'll easily forget. 

My husband is circumcised. I asked him if he would want that done to our sons and his initial reaction was yes, of course. I asked him why, and he didn't have a valid reason. After we looked at statistics and research together, we easily came to the conclusion that we will leave our kids intact. 

While the story of this adult man's botched circumcision is awful, please believe that infant circumcision can and does go equally awry at times. There are botched circumcisions at all ages. 

LadyXaverian

spoonleg said:

In my career, I've probably seen thousands of penises, both circumcised and intact (I'm a nurse, not a prostitute.) 

This is my favorite part of the entire thread.

NatureLovers

If we had a boy, I would absolutely not circumcise. It's an unnecessary surgical procedure done for cosmetic reasons, and who am I to permanently alter my child's body for no good reason, especially if any complications could be so dire to his penis? On the flipside, I'm torn about earrings for a girl. Culturally for me, it's done at a very young age (I was 3 days old), and I'm glad it was done when I don't remember it. I want to do it, but again the whole bodily autonomy thing...I don't know what I'll do. Circumcision and ear piercing are not equal.

YaMrWhite

CanukMam said:

Perhaps unlike my posts (cause I'm lazy) @stargirlb made some good posts. Clear points, often will links to articles and statistics. She seemed to not get emotional, rather she feels strongly. Also I didn't think she kept it going, more like she responded to those misquoting her or attacking her position, which she has every right to do. Just because you disagree or dont like her opinion doesn't mean she has to sit back and take it. This is a forum full of hormonal ladies, I would probably get flamed if I said I hated chocolate at this point ( which I do BTW) P.s if you start a circumcision or vaccination thread you have to know what is coming.

FFS. Stop with that shit. EVERYONE who has said this or thinks that way. STOP.

mommy5point0

I'm seriously dreading this conversation with DH but ultimately think my argument will prevail. He feels very strongly in favor, I am vehemently opposed. DS (from another marriage) is intact and at 12 has never had a problem. If we had religious stance involved I would feel differently but we do not, and his arguments about various issues don't really hold any water in my mind because I have a basis for comparison alresdy. I just tend to think that if DS wants to get it done when he's older--great. He's made that choice himself. But if I choose something for him that cannot be undone, and there are issues at any level, I would feel really bad.

britb618

Wow @calindi‌ and @ladyamanuet‌ love it!!!

JEMondy

Just throwing this idea out there, but what benefits are there to being uncircumcised besides skipping the snip at birth? I'm open to the idea of not circumcising, but the strongest arguments I've heard are not putting the kid through pain, and there are no "compelling" medical benefits. From what I understand, being birthed is pretty traumatic and painful (we may be squeezing a watermelon through a lemon, but imagine being the watermelon). Not that I would really want to subject my son to more pain, but obviously infants are capable of experiencing and forgetting extreme pain. If there is a slight chance (teeny tiny) my son would require a circumcision in his adult life, I'm sure he'd regret my decision to not get it done at birth. So, I guess my question really is, how many grown men resent being circumcised and what advantage do uncircumcised men have over those who get it done?

babyzap20

We will circ. Don't like it? Don't do it.

MKro2

My husband is uncircumcised and he hates it and actually was the one to decide to get both of his sons circumcised.  If we have another son we will circumcise.  That's the choice we made though and don't feel either choice is right or wrong.  If you feel passionately about not circumcising, great that's your choice.  I'm completely ok with it.  I don't feel bad about the choice I made though.

amiej1227

I dated a guy that was uncircumcised and I think he would have liked to have been but wouldnt do the procedure as an adult unless something came up for the need. I know for me as a user I like it better being circumcised, but to each their own.

rachel+family

My husband and I were considering circumsision but decided against it because the lovely nurses at our hospital (also from BC Canada) advised against it. I'm happy with our decision as DS can chose to get circumcised one day if he wants to.
Personally, looking back I don't think I could have gone through with it. I couldn't get my newborn perfect baby cut. Most people who follow alternative parenting styles (attachment or whatever) don't do so because they are young or foolish but because they have done A LOT OF RESEARCH! Usually more than the ones who just do whatever their in laws, culture, tv, etc tell them to.
Also I don't vax... Just saying

rachel+family

*choose

britb618

Well I think it's condescending to say that those who choose to circ don't do research....and adding in that you don't vax really impresses me....

BookitBoo

Implying that people who circ haven't done enough research is silly and more than a little conceited. We researched and reached a different conclusion. That's how the world works.

I don't know why you mentioned vaccination, but that is also a choice that we made for our son and will make for any other children we have.

The comparison of female genital mutilation to circumcision is extremely ignorant. Just stop.

sanbry

@ladyamanuet‌ took the words out of my mouth. Thank you for that!

We will circ if this baby is a boy. I went to high school with a guy who had a circ our senior year because of a health condition and said it was extremely painful. Pretty sure he will always remember that, whereas an infant will not. My husband has never expressed a desire to have a foreskin so I think our potential son will be ok.

LaBellaVida

I'm sure She brought up not vaxing because a few pages ago I said I that I can't take star seriously with her googling of research, when in fact she doesn't vax.

amiej1227

I feel sorry for those kids not vaccinated. I worry about all the news of issues and kids dying from things that could have easily been preventable from a vaccination. It's not fair to the kids, I read one story from someone that's parents were pro no vaccinations and she was saying how she was sick all the time. How is that okay? One reason I will be vaccinating mine, I don't want my children to suffer from illness that is preventable.

rachel+family

Well with complete respect to some of the more mainstream parenting styles (no sarcasm here), personally I feel that when someone like *stargirl b voices her opinion about alternative parenting styles she's shot down and called young and immature. I don't think that's fair. I'm speaking for myself here but the reason I said all if that is because most of the time I agree with her. I appreciate that she has guts enough to explain herself and she obviously has done her research. So I don't think that's young or immature.

And honestly, I do respect those who choose to parent differently. We can't all be the same

letsgox

rachel+family said:

Well with complete respect to some of the more mainstream parenting styles (no sarcasm here), personally I feel that when someone like *stargirl b voices her opinion about alternative parenting styles she's shot down and called young and immature. I don't think that's fair. I'm speaking for myself here but the reason I said all if that is because most of the time I agree with her. I appreciate that she has guts enough to explain herself and she obviously has done her research. So I don't think that's young or immature.

And honestly, I do respect those who choose to parent differently. We can't all be the same

I'm glad you mention the bolded!

As far as being called young and immature, exactly one person said that. The others who have spoken up and taken the time to write well thought out responses have not mentioned her age or alleged immaturity. They "shot her down" for reasons related to the content of her comments.

LaBellaVida

When I refer to her as young and immature is more then just this thread. Fine, do your research but don't bash other parents on their choices they make. Have an opinion on things, but let it go, stop with the horse beating. Her constant negativity on America, their Heathcare, and the way we do things is a bit much, and frankly over the line. No one here is harping on your country. She's rude, and "LOLd" at a mama who got some good news back about testing. The fact she's on more then one occasion has called people's babies 'intersex' is just down right ugly and not needed.

It's immature!

Stargirlb

If you think there are compelling medical reasons to chop of part of a healthy natural penis, you are wrong, and ignorant.

Benefits of being left intact? Let me name a few.

The prepuce (foreskin) is a normal part of genital anatomy. In boys and men, the prepuce covers the glans (head) of the penis. In girls and women, the prepuce (preputial hood or clitoral hood) covers the clitoris.

The foreskin is not “just an extra flap of skin.” The foreskin is a double-layered, highly nerve-laden structure that is an integral part of the penis. On average, the amount of skin removed amounts to the size of a 3” x 5” index card for a grown man.

The foreskin helps protect the penis. In babies, the foreskin protects the glans from abrasions and keeps bacteria from entering the urinary tract. Throughout a man’s life, it protects the glans from cold and injury, and from drying out. Ever compared the head of a circumcised man's penis to that of an intact man? It's dead, dry, and desensitized in comparison.

The foreskin plays a vital role in sexual activity. In adult men, the it provides the ample skin needed for a full erection. The foreskin has thousands of nerve endings and enhances an intact man’s sexual pleasure. The gliding action produced by the foreskin and the glans working together gives pleasure to both the intact man and his partner.

Interesting anecdote here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1muiyy/serious_parents_of_reddit_who_chose_elective/

Stargirlb

BC chicks unite! @rachel+family‌

CanukMam

JEMondy said:

Just throwing this idea out there, but what benefits are there to being uncircumcised besides skipping the snip at birth? I'm open to the idea of not circumcising, but the strongest arguments I've heard are not putting the kid through pain, and there are no "compelling" medical benefits. From what I understand, being birthed is pretty traumatic and painful (we may be squeezing a watermelon through a lemon, but imagine being the watermelon). Not that I would really want to subject my son to more pain, but obviously infants are capable of experiencing and forgetting extreme pain. If there is a slight chance (teeny tiny) my son would require a circumcision in his adult life, I'm sure he'd regret my decision to not get it done at birth. So, I guess my question really is, how many grown men resent being circumcised and what advantage do uncircumcised men have over those who get it done?

I've read that there is more sensation for those uncut. With that being said I don't know how there can be a scientific comparison. An infant will never know his penis any other way. If you do the research on adults who get circumcised late in life it may have a different outcome then doing it as an infant... it's very hard to compare. I would call it a gray area. Also I've heard of many babies dealing with adhesions and other rarer complications as a result of the circumcision.

It's also very difficult for a man to say there is something wrong with his penis. They don't know it any other way, so of course it's fine with them. I've known men who were unhappy about being cut and men who were unhappy being uncut.

I would just rather not change something, it is as nature intended. If he wants to do it, he has the choice later in life. You can't undo a circumcision.

YaMrWhite

rachel+family said:

Well with complete respect to some of the more mainstream parenting styles (no sarcasm here), personally I feel that when someone like *stargirl b voices her opinion about alternative parenting styles she's shot down and called young and immature. I don't think that's fair. I'm speaking for myself here but the reason I said all if that is because most of the time I agree with her. I appreciate that she has guts enough to explain herself and she obviously has done her research. So I don't think that's young or immature. And honestly, I do respect those who choose to parent differently. We can't all be the same

You can be smart and immature. I know because that is my husband lol. This in no way sums up my feelings on the debate at hand. Just throwing that out there.

rachel+family

OMG she called my baby intersex too... Pretty sure I laughed and moved on.

Stargirlb

And you can totally talk about male/female genital mutilation in the same breath. Cutting off the foreskin was not started to "prevent the spread of aids" or whatever else bullshit propaganda you buy into to make yourself feel better. It was because it was thought to be "unclean" and ungodly, and to prevent him from masturbating, which was also unclean and ungodly.

Guess what the reasons are for FGM? Women's genitals are unclean, ungodly, and to try to remove physical pleasure from sex.

But whatever, keep telling yourself than one is a valid and benign "parenting decision," and one is a horrific human rights violation.

Stargirlb

Off topic but that 'birth trauma' comment reminds me of this study. Evidence that oxytocin release protects the baby's brain from trauma during birth.
Pitocin and epidurals both reduce the body's production of oxytocin, so that might be one reason to reconsider using one strictly for comfort/convenience purposes. Very interesting.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10805-maternal-hormone-protects-babys-brain-during-birth.html#.U9KUCHi9LCQ

YaMrWhite

ladyamanuet said:

Stargirlb said:

And you can totally talk about male/female genital mutilation in the same breath. Cutting off the foreskin was not started to "prevent the spread of aids" or whatever else bullshit propaganda you buy into to make yourself feel better. It was because it was thought to be "unclean" and ungodly, and to prevent him from masturbating, which was also unclean and ungodly. Guess what the reasons are for FGM? Women's genitals are unclean, ungodly, and to try to remove physical pleasure from sex. But whatever, keep telling yourself than one is a valid and benign "parenting decision," and one is a horrific human rights violation.

This is ABSOLUTELY not why male circumcision was started, but keeping telling yourself that to make yourself feel holier-than-thou. There is also NO SCIENTIFIC data showing uncircumcised men experience higher sexual gratification than circumcised men.

There is no historic evidence that shows religion of any kind was the reason for circumcision to become so prevalent world wide.  NONE.  Are there some instances where circumcision is religious? Of course, the Jewish faith has a whole damn ceremony for it.  BUT, there is also historical data showing male circumcision being done for COMPLETELY non-religious reasons - such as a non-fatal way of marking a man as captured and enslaved.  Not done to keep the slave from masturbating or to make him more godly.  Done because it was seen as a more humane way to mark them. I'm sure some of the the guys getting snipped would much rather have had a burning hot iron seared into their flesh than their penises cut, but I bet some were happy to take a little snip over burning flesh or full on castration.

To suggest that a quick healing procedure that leaves no lasting emotional or physical damage is the same as being brutal butchered at an age where it will be remembered and leave both physical and emotional scars is ridiculous.

Again, not saying you can't see both as mutilation and both as wrong. Tattoos are technically a form of mutilation. But to say that female genital mutilation and male circumcision are the EXACT SAME is ignorant and laughable, and honestly, it sullies any other good points you might have. 

I should thank my lucky stars that my husband is circumcised if that is true because he LOVES how sex feels and is quite the horndog. I have trouble keeping up.

Edit: Bolded what I was referencing.