Chart Stalk / Questions ~ December

bluejeanbabi05 · December 2018

My RE had told me that I'd be on it for my whole pregnancy, so that's what I was expecting. I saw the high risk doctor for my anatomy scan (not actually entirely sure why my OB had me go to them at 12 weeks as I wasn't considered high risk yet, maybe because of my IF history or PCOS). I asked him about the metformin, and he told me to go off it at 12 weeks. I mentioned what my RE had told me, and his response was "Your RE is an expert at getting you pregnant. I'm an expert at keeping you pregnant" so who knows, but I trusted him. I got my Mirena in about 8 weeks after giving birth, and that kept my PCOS symptoms well maintained so I have had no need of it until now. I did have GD though, we are at increased risk of that because of our PCOS. But my blood sugar tests after birth came back normal. I would prefer to avoid the metformin if I can, the side effects aren't my favorite. But it was an absolute miracle at regulating my cycles almost immediately.

@kiki047 answer in spoiler as well *TW*

kiki047 · December 2018

@bluejeanbabi05 thank you!! I guess that'll just be something I'll have to address with my OB when the time comes. GD is certainly a concern, but again, cross that bridge when we get to it? Really appreciate the insights!

kagesstarshroom · December 2018

@lulu1180 yes! thanks! i am going to add onto what you've pointed out about the article by looking at some others. but good reading.
@marebear15 from what I've read about TWW (I read a lot about this recently bc I just didn't know as we were NTNP for a while before recently) studies indicated the opposite as well: there are studies that say HIO during TWW is great for TTGP and studies that say it might affect the chances negatively (though, now that I've done MORE research on this just today, there might just be that one that says it's def. negative? and the rest say that it's only negative if there are other negative things already affecting chances. See spoilers/below...) For sure, from what I read, more studies have said it's beneficial/doesn't affect chances than not beneficial/does affect chances.

Okay, I warned youall in my newbie intro a bit ago that I'm long-winded, haha, and I'm about to get all "professor" on this article since--that's what I do! Though I teach English not Science, I do teach research writing! My findings are in the spoiler/s for no other reason than they're long. But I suggest if that article freaked you out to please read forth!

The article (by Michael A. Thomas) posted is only an "abstract and commentary" for one study that takes into consideration two studies--in other words, it's incomplete; it seems a full study has been done--just not published in a journal/trusted source in full. Or at least: I can't find any longer version and I spent the last ~hour or so haha researching this thoroughly. This would mean-- I wouldn't let a student use this as a "scholarly" source in a paper. (They could use it as a source, but not a "scholarly" one.) In addition, no one has cited this study since it's dropped--which was 3 years ago--a bad sign for the paper's vitality! This means, other professionals in his field aren't referencing it--meaning they don't care about it. There's a fairly low sample size & there's no way to tell how valid the study is without the whole article pub'd. Another point: the very last line of the Thomas article says, "Whether 'abstinence in order to conceive' will be part of any future discussions will depend on larger multicenter studies that replicate these counterintuitive findings." And I think it's safe to say, considering no one cited this article, its findings haven't been replicated. Scholars are often pushed to find and defend arguments that haven't been made in order to advance their careers--this article kind of stinks of that in tone and especially when held up against other articles on the topic that are more nuanced.

As for research that provides more nuanced counter-examples, this study about the timing of intercourse & chances of conception published in a scholarly journal in 1995 [yes, 20 years before the other one, but my point is still valid] has been cited *1,121* times. This means people DO trust it. It's also a full, scholarly source. This one, published in 1999 in full in a scholarly journal, cited 453 times, specifically says in its summary, "Does sexual activity in pregnancy harm the fetus? (if there are no risk factors: no)." Okay so, not specific to TWW, but still. [You can't read the whole article via that link, so if anyone wants the whole article, I downloaded a PDF of it from my school.] Neither of these articles specifically say sex is good/bad so bluntly as the Thomas article. Another good about this second one: it's a "meta-content" study, which means it's, like--a lot of different studies all analyzed in one. The Thomas article is one study of two studies, that no one cited, which--really, again, that's a good sign it's insignificant data to medical professionals. Finally, this article provides info that directly counters the original Thomas article, published in 2000, & has been cited over 100 times and was published by a scholarly journal. I'd say its data is more reliable/trusted by medical professionals. But it's specifically about patients on IVF.

I do want to say, though, even after all this, that if you're gonna be stressed bc of one one kind of bad study--that's totally fair because emotions are complicated and just bc something might not be true or isn't medically unadvisable, doesn't mean that we don't read otherwise and believe it and psych ourselves out and then won't be able to enjoy ourselves anyway. Also, women tend to have a decreased sex drive during TWW/1st tri according to what I skimmed in these articles anyway.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/ha/f6nfnk6cy48j.gif

OKAY TL;DR VERSION: The article is not pub'd in full in any scholarly space & its info hasn't bee triangulated at all or cited at all & there are a lot of other more scholarly sources that say different (though not the exact opposite necessarily) stuff. So I would argue: DTD when you want to DTD bc no one seems to really know. But also: if you don't want to DTD during TWW, that's fine too. This (not scholarly) piece on "What To Avoid During Implantation" references the Thomas article and also provides a good summary of what I've summarized here in its section on sex.

Also, since it took me a while to do this and there might already be other replies to this debunking the Thomas article that are less long-winded so--yay for ppl who are less long-winded & efficient! (just hit post, self!)

kiki047 · December 2018

I just had a thought this morning as I was lying on the table getting my 19385th ultrasound this month... the lube they use for the dildo cam... I'm assuming they're not using something like pre-seed or anything sperm friendly, so how long does that hang around all up in my lady parts? Could it hinder MF's swimmers?

I recognize there isn't really any way around this because we're doing cycle monitoring for a reason but I was curious if this has occurred to anyone other than me? I don't even know what I'd google if I were to go searching for answers.

nomangos23 · December 2018

@kiki047 Kiki please show up to your next appt with a bottle of preseed and ask if they can use that lube instead

crookshanks10 · December 2018

@kiki047 I actually asked this at one of my monitoring appointments prior to IUI. My RE said it wasn't sperm friendly, or sperm not friendly. Although I wish they would use something sperm friendly! Haha. That would make more sense!

inthewoods23 · December 2018

@kiki047 huh... Interesting point. Does that matter for an IUI or IVF though? IUIs use a catheter to put the sperm in the uterus so if there was lube from the US probe (although I love the term dildo cam

) it wouldn't matter right? Because the sperm is going past that? Buuuut... Don't they put lube in the catheter for easier insertion? HMMM!! I'm not really sure!

lulu1180 · December 2018

@kiki047 No, that gel/lube that they use is not sperm friendly (not usually at least, you can ask to confirm). You can ask them to not use any or you can bring preseed with you and ask them to use that instead. I'm sure you would not be the first person to ask either way.

crookshanks10 · December 2018

@nomangos23 I wonder if she would be the first to do that? It actually sounds like not a bad idea! HAHA!

lulu1180 · December 2018

@inthewoods23 I don't think any lube is used for the IUI, but I wasn't paying that much attention last time tbh, they insert the speculum, insert the catheter and then push the plunger to inseminate with the sperm. Even if it were just for an IUI, that would mean that any TI you do to increase your chances prior to the IUI are in vain because those swimmers may not be able to get through the lube used for the u/s

marebear15 · December 2018

@kagesstarshroom THANK YOU! You have eased my mind greatly, and I read every bit of what you wrote!

lulu1180 · December 2018

@kagesstarshroom That was a pretty awesome explanation! Thank you for your insight, I love when people on this board really bring out the science!

Image: https://media1.tenor.com/images/6a207337ff44e92f8dd167f2d99bca6b/tenor.gif?itemid=4881098

inthewoods23 · December 2018

@lulu1180 yeah I don't recall how it went for the HSG they did a few months ago. Maybe they don't use lube with that since it's small

kiki047 · December 2018

@nomangos23 I don't know what's worse, showing up with it to be like, "here, I brought my own" or having to carry it around in my purse ... what if I forget it's there? I went to the store after my appt this morning to pick up something for my work party this afternoon ... imagine I went to pull out my wallet and lube fell out?

@crookshanks10 I'm glad I'm not the only one that has thought about it. You would think they'd use something sperm-friendly? I guess it's not exactly cost-effective given how many u/s they do a day.
@inthewoods23 you're right, it probably wouldn't matter for IUI or IVF. Just wondering because we're doing a letrozole + TI cycle and I don't use any lube so was curious to know how long it hangs out in there. We're on a PM HIO schedule so it's like 14 hours between u/s and BD so I'm hoping it will have dissipated by then?
@lulu1180 thank you for the reassurance. I'm probably way overthinking this but it's haunting me now.

celticknotfire · December 2018

@inthewoods23 My RE didn't do my IUI but a PA did and she explained everything very well. The speculum cannot have any lubrication or be warm because it is not sperm friendly. They wipe the cervix so anything remaining, including CM, is wiped off. There is no lubricant on the catheter but it's really small. Obviously a lot of clinics do things differently that's just how mine was done.

nomangos23 · December 2018

@kiki047 I had a rental car when I was traveling once and found a GIANT bottle of lube in between the center console and the passenger seat. It was still in the box and when I saw it I thought it was a cosmetics box so I very excitedly squealed (thinking I might be the brand new owner of some Clinique products) and pulled it out. My boss was literally opening the door to get in and heard me squeal and shove something back in between the seats. To which of course he was like "Oh what's in there?" And then I died.

inthewoods23 · December 2018

@kiki047 I would think 14 hours is more than enough time! GL!

RedBreast35 · December 2018

**Total lurky-loo** but @kiki047 my RE’s office always uses water instead of the lube for pre-O ultrasounds. They even went so far as to switch out the wand when the tech accidentally lubed it up once. So yeah, I’d recommend bringing Preseed or asking them to use water (or I think saline is ok too but don’t quote me on that one!) Good luck!!

**lurky-loo out 😉**

chichiphin · December 2018

Let me preface by saying I’ll be asking my RE - but did anyone else on clomid or fermara have horrendous O pain?? Last night I’m pretty sure my side was splitting 😩

marebear15 · December 2018

@chichiphin - Could it have been because your follies were so enlarged?

inthewoods23 · December 2018

@chichiphin wish I could have an answer for you, but I'm only through day 3 of letrozole and I haven't felt anything different. Maybe I'll have a different story next week as I get close to O

kiki047 · December 2018

@nomangos23 I’m sitting at the clinic snickering by myself in the corner at your rental car story. Hahahaha. That’s too funny.

@RedBreast35 thank you!! Water makes so much more sense to me. But what do I know?

inthewoods23 · December 2018

@nomangos23 omg I missed your story yesterday. That's hilarious!

holly321 · December 2018

@chichiphin. I did with clomid. But I feel like o pain is pretty crappy and miserable for me without it! But t was worse.

kbrown2385 · December 2018

I keep seeing everyone talk about FAM and advanced settings on FF. What is the difference and which one is better? Im still relatively new to temping, so I have zero idea about anything beyond the basics.

kagesstarshroom · December 2018

Hi, @kbrown2385! FAM, from what I read in TCOYF, is just the idea of charting/keeping track of fertility signs like CP, CM, BBT, etc. generally--you can chart on your own, for example, via a chart you can download from their website or most BBT packaging comes w/ a paper chart. FF is an app that fills in the info for you onto the chart--you just punch in the info & it organizes it into the chart. I've never used/haven't upgraded to the VIP in FF yet, but I'm finding it's regular settings work fine for a beginner. For the most part, it's good enough for what I need it to be. I am tempted sometimes by the notes that announce"You Must Have A VIP Membership!" to perform this function, but the app definitely has what I need it to have to chart. There are definitely some peeps on here w/ the VIP membership who can speak more to its benefits. FF itself, though, is free. And, obvs, writing stuff down on a downloaded printed chart = also free.

kgg2241 · December 2018

@chichiphin yes, I do. I'm on my 10th Femara cycle and it has been like that every cycle for me. It wasn't like that on Clomid. It is so bad I can barely walk. This time it was especially bad, so I'm going to ask my Dr. what is going on. Sorry you are going through it too, but glad to know it isn't me!

holly321 · December 2018

@kbrown2385 I was about to ask in here too. My understanding is FAM uses temps and advanced uses CM, CP and opks to determine O.
But my issue is, what is better? I could see it depending on the person and the cycle. I honestly don’t think I am either good at determining cm or my body likes to SS it. (Or daily allergy medicine alters the results) plus I didn’t have opks this month.

With temps only, my O date changed by 3 days on FF when I switched from advanced to FAM. My LP is generally long and consistent, so I plan on using that to determine whatO day is correct.

chichiphin · December 2018

@kgg2241 ugh I am so so sorry. My O day I could barely walk by bed time. Thankfully I O’d at night this time so I could just lay down.

kimmer1412 · December 2018

Could this temp dip be an implantation dip since my temps are back up again? This cycle has me confused.

holly321 · December 2018

@kimmer1412 I believe implantation dips are a one day drop, yours slowly went down over a course of days. But going back up is good!

kbrown2385 · December 2018

@kagesstarshroom I’ve been using FF for the past 3 months for temping and tracking my cycles and I like it.They have different settings, including fam and advanced, which some have recommended done way or the other. I wasn’t sure what the different settings meant in the app.

@holly321 that makes sense! I feel like I personally lean more towards fam than advanced since, like you, I have trouble figuring out the cm. I also don’t necessarily keep track of all the different things, except for temping every morning. I’m sure the advanced is better since it takes more into account. ETA: I switched it to FAM and it says I didn’t ovulate at all, while advanced gave me crosshairs for when my symptoms lined up with my temps. I’m so confused lol.

Edit words

SpongeWorthy · December 2018

@kimmer1412 Implantation dips can really only be seen in restrospect after you have a positive test. Sometimes there can be random estrogen spikes in our TWW, and that’s why your temperature drops. Unfortunately it’s not a clear sign of anything. It’s good that your temp went back up, though! FX!

chichiphin · December 2018

Where my progesterone ladies at? Should I basically expect to have ALL the symptoms of early pregnancy with 400mg a day? I’m telling myself that if I can‘t properly SS due to meds, it will be less stress. (Yeah right)

kbrown2385 · December 2018

@chichiphin I’m on the gel currently and I’ve got some side effects/potential symptoms. My RE mentioned that it’s possible the progesterone can cause it. Af isn’t due until earliest Wednesday, so it’s either the that or early pregnancy.

chichiphin · December 2018

@kbrown2385 good to know - I’m only 3DPO and only one day in with progesterone and really wondering what it could be like a week from now. The one thing that is different and is making me paranoid is that I am cramping a lot more after O than normal, which I am attributing to the letrozole + progesterone

cdnrunning · December 2018

@chichiphin I'm on 200mg daily. I prefer to take it at night because it makes me drowsy during the day. The only other symptom that bothered me was the bloating. Not extreme, but definitely more so than normal.

celticknotfire · December 2018

@chichiphin I'm taking the 200mg vaginally again and I find it hard to determine if I'm ss or if it's the meds. I'm 11dpiui and it's driving me crazy!

elle-0409 · December 2018

@chichiphin My first month on progesterone, I cried at everything and was tired. I thought, “This is definitely it! I’m KU!” and AF was like, “Imma let you finish, but...”

kiki047 · December 2018

@chichiphin I had awful O pains on the letrozole on Friday. Same symptoms, I felt like my side was splitting open. Since I was given some conflicting information that the follie was either going to relinquish an egg (or in my case, both 30mm+ follies did), or it was going to turn into a cyst and it could burst. Thankfully it was the former, but OUCH. Also, I'm still crampy 2dpo and I'm not taking progesterone this cycle.

@kimmer1412 Not to be the bearer of bad news but it is possible your first temp spike was a false rise and you didn't actually O on CD15 like you thought. This is one of my an-o charts in the spoiler. You can see I had a false rise around CD17/18 that corresponded with my CM and +OPK, but my temps dropped back down through to CD26, spiked again, dropped back down, then were just all over the place for the rest of my cycle. How long is your LP usually? If AF doesn't show in the next 5-8 days I'd question your O date.

Chart Stalk / Questions ~ December

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