Sort of sad I missed this whole convo about circumscision because I am also on the fence. Does anyone have sources they think are scientific and as unbiased as possible (everything is a little biased...) would love to start researching both sides. I’m Jewish and my parents chose not to circumcise my twin bro which he has always seemed fine with (tbh not a topic we have really discussed.) DH is circumcised and seems to have an ever so slight preference for it but he acknowledges that he can’t really articulate why. So time to crack the books (or google...)
On another note- my stabby Sat/Thurs is that in my and my two pregnant friends experience, men, particularly Caucasian men, basically never offer seats on the subway to pregnant women! It’s usually other women or sometimes men of color. Very anecdotal but something I am noticing. I’m not reakky into “chivalry” but this is more about being conscientious of surroundings and the potential needs of those around you. Anyway...thoughts from the airport.
@rc-cola When I was at President Tuxedo on the day of E's prom, the place was packed. Both couches were occupied. I was in pain from just walking into the mall and was very obviously uncomfortable while I was waiting for E to try his tux on. I honestly wasn't even playing it up, I was rubbing my back and groaning. This couple just stared at me and told me how cute my toddler was. E almost told them to get the F up and let me sit down.
@krzyriver yeah at first I thought it’s because I’m just not showing that much, but my friends are at 29 weeks! I think some people just don’t get it, others are selfish, and some don’t realize the discomfort. Also a lot of people these days just stare at their phones and don’t look up.
MH is a Caucasian male and he gives up his seat for people all the time, women, older men, even guys his age or younger that just look tired. He did say that he hates it when he does that and the woman gives him a death glare because he tried to give her his seat.
Chivalry is courteous behavior, especially of a man toward a woman (but not exclusively - women can be chivalrous too). I don’t get why people aren’t into it - I mean, you want people to be polite and courteous, but not chivalrous? That doesn’t really make sense.
@purplegoldfish2 agree for the most part. I was in a walking boot for a while in college and had to take the bus to campus. Do you know how many people offered me their seat? 0. Everytime the bus stopped I would roll forward because of the boot. And people would get mad I would bump them.
But.. I ranted sometime ago on this board about chivalry and elevators....won't rehash that whole thing too much, but it is infuriating when men do that in elevators. I feel like something with a finite time needs to be first come first serve, so we don't back up the line or heaven forbid the doors close without anyone in/out.
@jemmerjams I remember you saying something about That! When I was on the job I took the elevator daily and if I were in the middle or anywhere near the front everyone would wait or move out of the way for me to go first and it was so frustrating!! Just get out of the elevator so I don't have to squeeze past 3 other people..
@jemmerjams, @mamabearcj See, that isn’t really chivalry - forcing somebody to squeeze through people in a crowded elevator so they can get out first isn’t being courteous, it’s actually kind of the opposite and is super annoying. The chivalrous thing to do would be to step out of the elevator and then reach an arm back in to hold the door so it doesn’t close on the person that was stuck at the back but needs to get out, as long as you are not in the way of people trying to get out (like if somebody has a stroller, you standing there holding the door can actually make it harder for them to leave). I have frequently stepped out of an elevator on the wrong floor to allow the people at the back to get out without having to push past people. My husband and kids do it too. Once those people exit, we get back on & in that case, putting an arm in the door helps make sure the elevator doesn’t leave without us.
I think part of the problem is that boys are/were taught “ladies first” with zero context, so then when they are adults, they don’t learn to read the situation. They just say, “oh, there’s a lady, she has to go first” and don’t pay attention to how inconvenient her going first actually is. Now if there’s a lady and a man at the front of the elevator, chivalry would dictate that the lady goes first, because “ladies first” but also both of them squeezing out of the door together would be dumb. I don’t really care if the man goes first, but I know there’s a good chance he will wait.
Another annoying thing people think is chivalrous - holding doors. If I get to a door and open it and there is a man behind me, I will hold it for him because it’s the polite thing to do. Most thank me and walk through, but I’ve had men actually get mad about it and reach their arm (& sweaty armpit) above my head to hold the door and insist I go through. MH has been yelled at by women for holding the door for them, even though they were right behind him. He even asked me if he was supposed to just let it close in their face. And I think I saw this on here before too - making somebody run to get to a door because they’re too far away and you insist on holding it is rude.
@purplegoldfish2 Exactly! It's not chivalrous at all. What you do is though! It's polite and making things easier for others without adding any time or conflict to the situation. Squeezing past someone is awkward and takes me and everyone else longer to get off the elevator than it would if we just left in the order thats closest to the door. I don't understand why people think that's a good deed or holding a door that I am way to far away from, but not offering pregnant ladies or elderly people seats on public transit? Who taught these people!?
@mamabearcj Some of it is rudeness, some of it is just not paying attention or seeing it and it not occurring to them because they’re thinking about other things (I’ve done this before, despite trying to always do the right thing) and some of it is people are becoming afraid to do that stuff because there are people that will yell at other people for being chivalrous (and usually it’s women yelling at men).
We (as a society) send very mixed messages to men, especially lately, when it comes to that kind of stuff. It’s like that woman that yelled at my husband for holding the door for her, or the woman that gave him a death glare for getting up to let her have his seat. If you’re in an area where there are a lot of women doing that, the men may feel a bit beaten down and it’s just easier for them to do their thing and ignore the other people around them.
ETA It’s “safer” to not offer the seat than to risk getting yelled at for offering it.
There is definitely a difference between courtesy and chivalry. My irritation is when guys won’t allow me to extend to them the same courtesies that they want to extend to me. (Such as holding the door.)
Often to me, things that are “chivalrous” are also generally demeaning of my ability to do common things - racing around me to get th door rather than simply holding a door that they naturally arrived at first.
@purplegoldfish2 - I’d tell your husband that next time just ask if she would rather he have let the door hit her.
@purplegoldfish2 unfortunately that makes sense.. society is always changing and it's hard to keep up. Fortunately I don't live in an area where we even have public transit so I personally don't experience that. But we'll still have men who hold doors and women who get offended by it and vice versa.. I don't know what kind of world I'll be bringing this baby into but I hope it gets better by the time they're old enough to realize what's going on.
There is definitely a difference between courtesy and chivalry. My irritation is when guys won’t allow me to extend to them the same courtesies that they want to extend to me. (Such as holding the door.)
Often to me, things that are “chivalrous” are also generally demeaning of my ability to do common things - racing around me to get th door rather than simply holding a door that they naturally arrived at first.
@purplegoldfish2 - I’d tell your husband that next time just ask if she would rather he have let the door hit her.
Yes. Exactly. When someone in front of me holds the door, I think that’s them being polite. When a man trips over his dick to pull out a chair for me, or help me out of a car, or rushes to get a door for me in a way I KNOW he wouldn’t have done for another man, it feels like there’s an implication that I need his help, and I don’t.
"When a man trips over his dick" is my favorite line ever.
yas! I was sitting laughing like an idiot over that one! ETA: when someone goes way out of their way to hold the door or something like that, I find it creepy
I lost it laughing “when a man trips over his dick” Mainly because I had this hilarious mental image... but I agree with @knottieamusements. There’s a difference between common courtesy/good manners and chivalry. I was raised with 2 sisters (no brothers) and my parents taught me if someone is right behind you, regardless of sex or age, you hold the door because it’s the polite thing to do. Especially for the elderly or a mom with a stroller/kid in both arms etc. Most of the time if it’s a sweaty man with a swinging dick he might trip over (haha) I won’t wait for him to walk through first but I do take an extra second to make sure they are able to grab the open door instead of letting it slam in their face. Helps avoid the armpit situation. I’m short and people think it’s ok to reach over my head so I learned that trick to get away from gross people.
@rc-cola I had the same experience in the airport on Wed during a layover. It was me and my toddler. I definitely look pregnant, and I had my giant diaper bag carry on and lunch with fountain drinks for me and the kid while trying to push a stroller and balance said drinks. The gate was full and people were sitting there using seats for their bags or feet. I ended up just plopping on the floor so me and DD could eat eat lunch. A few mins later once I decided to go for a walk an African American man asked if I wanted his seat. It blew my mind that people didn't even offer to move their bags off of a seat for us.
Chivalry goes back to the Middle Ages and was basically the code for knights. It involved being courteous, courageous, gallant, honorable, and a willingness to help the weak (and I probably forgot some stuff in there).
There are still some holdovers from that time, namely in that women were perceived as weak so even if the man doesn’t think women are weak, there’s a chance that he was taught to do the thing without thinking about the why he was told that. Generally being courteous is a big part of chivalry though. Not assuming somebody is weak because of their gender is being courteous (so first person to the door holds it). Tripping over your dick (I also loved that) to race around me to open the door before I do is not being courteous, it’s actually pretty rude and therefore not chivalrous.
Offering me your seat because I’m a woman? This is where we may differ, but consider it courteous - yes, I’m only being offered it because I’m a woman, but if I’m tired and want to sit, I’m still thankful that somebody gave me a seat and if I prefer to stand, I have the option of saying “no, thank you.” I could choose to be offended by it, but really, why? He was trying to be nice. If I get mad, give him a dirty look and the next time he sees a woman that could actually use a seat, say somebody in their first trimester that isn’t visibly pregnant but would very much like to sit, he doesn’t offer it because my actions told him it was the wrong thing to do. Or I get offended and then it affects my day, not his - he’ll just think I was rude for the dirty look I gave him and go on with his day.
TL;DR Basically a lot of stuff attributed to chivalry, like all those dick trippers, isn’t actually chivalry. I do get where some chivalrous stuff bothers some women though, such as being offered a seat purely because you’re a woman. Despite that, I think we need more chivalry, not less. Being honorable, helping the weak (the actual weak or those in need), being courteous - all things we need more of IMO. As for dick tripping, well, next time somebody does that to me I’ll probably burst out laughing about it now.
@jynjer91 Yeah, when I see them reaching their hand up toward the door I start walking through until they’re close enough and then let go, or I’ll do what you do to avoid it. I absolutely hate the ones that will stand pretty far from the door and make me either walk around them to get to the doorway or expect me to walk under their arm like a 5 year old playing London Bridge. I’m short, but that’s no reason to be disrespectful.
I posted my comment right before boarding a flight and haven’t been online since then so sorry for being MIA! But I definitely agree that to me chivalry is usually based on an expectation of weakness based on perception of gender. Basically agree with @knottieamusements. I also find it sometimes correlates with notions of entitlement to women’s bodies. The common example that comes to mind is when a man offers to pay on a date and then has an expectation of sexual contact/feels that they are now entitled to sexual contact because of the “courtesy” they showed. I found sometimes before I wore a wedding ring someone (usually male) woikd offer me a seat at a bar or on the subway and then felt entitled to a conversation with me when I wasn’t interested. I know that’s not always how chivalry manifests and sometimes it is just courtesy without expectation.
Re: Stabby Saturday
On another note- my stabby Sat/Thurs is that in my and my two pregnant friends experience, men, particularly Caucasian men, basically never offer seats on the subway to pregnant women! It’s usually other women or sometimes men of color. Very anecdotal but something I am noticing. I’m not reakky into “chivalry” but this is more about being conscientious of surroundings and the potential needs of those around you. Anyway...thoughts from the airport.
ETA: fixing phone typos
https://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/latest/lions-den/pregnant-subway-comic-ariel-schrag-03
Chivalry is courteous behavior, especially of a man toward a woman (but not exclusively - women can be chivalrous too). I don’t get why people aren’t into it - I mean, you want people to be polite and courteous, but not chivalrous? That doesn’t really make sense.
But.. I ranted sometime ago on this board about chivalry and elevators....won't rehash that whole thing too much, but it is infuriating when men do that in elevators. I feel like something with a finite time needs to be first come first serve, so we don't back up the line or heaven forbid the doors close without anyone in/out.
Another annoying thing people think is chivalrous - holding doors. If I get to a door and open it and there is a man behind me, I will hold it for him because it’s the polite thing to do. Most thank me and walk through, but I’ve had men actually get mad about it and reach their arm (& sweaty armpit) above my head to hold the door and insist I go through. MH has been yelled at by women for holding the door for them, even though they were right behind him. He even asked me if he was supposed to just let it close in their face. And I think I saw this on here before too - making somebody run to get to a door because they’re too far away and you insist on holding it is rude.
edit spelling
We (as a society) send very mixed messages to men, especially lately, when it comes to that kind of stuff. It’s like that woman that yelled at my husband for holding the door for her, or the woman that gave him a death glare for getting up to let her have his seat. If you’re in an area where there are a lot of women doing that, the men may feel a bit beaten down and it’s just easier for them to do their thing and ignore the other people around them.
ETA It’s “safer” to not offer the seat than to risk getting yelled at for offering it.
Often to me, things that are “chivalrous” are also generally demeaning of my ability to do common things - racing around me to get th door rather than simply holding a door that they naturally arrived at first.
@purplegoldfish2 - I’d tell your husband that next time just ask if she would rather he have let the door hit her.
ETA: when someone goes way out of their way to hold the door or something like that, I find it creepy
DD 3/15/12
DD 6/3/14
#4 Due 10/26/18!
There are still some holdovers from that time, namely in that women were perceived as weak so even if the man doesn’t think women are weak, there’s a chance that he was taught to do the thing without thinking about the why he was told that. Generally being courteous is a big part of chivalry though. Not assuming somebody is weak because of their gender is being courteous (so first person to the door holds it). Tripping over your dick (I also loved that) to race around me to open the door before I do is not being courteous, it’s actually pretty rude and therefore not chivalrous.
Offering me your seat because I’m a woman? This is where we may differ, but consider it courteous - yes, I’m only being offered it because I’m a woman, but if I’m tired and want to sit, I’m still thankful that somebody gave me a seat and if I prefer to stand, I have the option of saying “no, thank you.” I could choose to be offended by it, but really, why? He was trying to be nice. If I get mad, give him a dirty look and the next time he sees a woman that could actually use a seat, say somebody in their first trimester that isn’t visibly pregnant but would very much like to sit, he doesn’t offer it because my actions told him it was the wrong thing to do. Or I get offended and then it affects my day, not his - he’ll just think I was rude for the dirty look I gave him and go on with his day.
TL;DR Basically a lot of stuff attributed to chivalry, like all those dick trippers, isn’t actually chivalry. I do get where some chivalrous stuff bothers some women though, such as being offered a seat purely because you’re a woman. Despite that, I think we need more chivalry, not less. Being honorable, helping the weak (the actual weak or those in need), being courteous - all things we need more of IMO. As for dick tripping, well, next time somebody does that to me I’ll probably burst out laughing about it now.
@jynjer91 Yeah, when I see them reaching their hand up toward the door I start walking through until they’re close enough and then let go, or I’ll do what you do to avoid it. I absolutely hate the ones that will stand pretty far from the door and make me either walk around them to get to the doorway or expect me to walk under their arm like a 5 year old playing London Bridge. I’m short, but that’s no reason to be disrespectful.
I’d like to see that - both the dick and the subsequent tripping!