Chart Stalk and Question Thread - Week of 8/21

nimmle · August 2017

This is a thread where anyone can feel free to request a chart stalk, second-guess FF's interpretation, or post TTC-related questions, regardless of where in your cycle you are. Sometimes FF is wrong. That's where we come in. Get your second opinion here!

Image: https://media.giphy.com/media/FRRK3vMJ4no52/giphy.gif

nimmle · August 2017

Soooo Question. My temps and CM indicate that I Oed 5 days ago, but right now I'm having an intense patch of EWCM. Is it possible I O'ed later? Will BD tonight just in case, but does anyone get patches of EWCM during TWW?

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@nimmle occasionally

lalala2004 · August 2017

nimmle said:

Soooo Question. My temps and CM indicate that I Oed 5 days ago, but right now I'm having an intense patch of EWCM. Is it possible I O'ed later? Will BD tonight just in case, but does anyone get patches of EWCM during TWW?

TBH after confirming O with temps, I generally stop recording it in FF. I feel like temps say more than CM, so unless those are questionable, I would assume you already Oed.

pebbledam · August 2017

@nimmle - I don't usually get EWCM after O, but I almost always get a patch or two of watery. Posting your chart would help us interpret your temps vs your CM, but if the temp shift is sustained, I would say you already O'd.

bjkay22 · August 2017

@nimmle (not sure if I need a TMI warning here but just in case I'm clearly going to be discussing my own CM)

I would say 75% of the time I get occasional (i.e. If I check CM more than once a day 1 of them will be EWCM) 3-4 days after most likely O day (based off of temping and OPKs). I have no idea what it means or why it happens but generally it's more of a white color and less of a clear color as I get further from O day.

I hope this is helpful! Every month is a little different. Just when you think you have a handle on your body, everything gets screwy haha

nimmle · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 @lalala2004 @pebbledam @bjkay22 Thanks everyone! Glad to hear that it's common to get patches later on. I thought this one was a big weird because it was different than the ewcm at O. I definitely have a clear temp shift though.

Chart:

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5020794/uploads/editor/kd/fvykmebxvmcz.png

**TMI Warning**

This time it was right on the tissue when I wiped and like a ton of it. However, closer to the cervix it was more creamy, so just weird overall. At O it was mixed in with a ton of watery EWCM, but was clear and super stretchy. It did dry up for a few days and then boom! My vag sneezed.

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@nimmle and it def wasn't semen?

nimmle · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 definitely not. We hadn't BD in a few days since DH was traveling. We did last night when he got home just in case.

emmasemm · August 2017

@nimmle I just snorted a glass of water out of my nose at your "and then boom. My vag sneezed"
thats going to have me chuckling for days...

On a more serious note. And TMI warning. I normally also get a lot more late afternoon around O (much less in the morning - could that be matching timing of LH surge being detectable by OPK???) and then again around 5-6dpo

dukestar5 · August 2017

Does anyone listen to the podcast "How to Get Healthy and Get Pregnant?" I think someone on TB recommended it and I just started listening to a few of the podcasts today. I was surprised by the episode entitled "Why Gut Health is Important For Fertility and One Type of Food to Stop Eating Now." I have never heard of the cold/warm food theory. I was guessing she was going to say eliminate sugar, but instead she said eliminate cold and raw foods. (Cold food include raw veggies, salads, etc...really healthy stuff). She said most of the food you eat should be cooked. She references the spleen and how it transforms the food we eat into energy--and it has to work harder to deal with colder, raw foods. Have you all listened to the podcast? What do you all think?

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@dukestar5 isn't there also a theory about enzymes that says some foods are better to eat raw? And then there's some weird phytonutrient research that says chopped raw food is best -- e.g., garlic chopped is better for you that whole garlic for some reason? I don't know, nutritional science is sort of a mixed bag because it's so difficult to reduce/impossible to eliminate variables. I think it's sort of like a, "uhhh maybe, could be" situation in my opinion. Also isn't all food basically the same temperature by the time the spleen is involved...?

zamoraspin · August 2017

@dukestar5 I listen to that podcast. Keep in mind she is approaching getting pregnant from a traditional Chinese medicine standpoint. I have heard her talk about limiting sugar in other podcasts and healthy eating in a way that sounds a bit more Western but a lot of time her perspective is based on things that may not be 100% peer reviewed science. I confess I kind of scoffed at the "warm foods" thing at first but then I found myself eating soup almost every day and eating less salad so... clearly I bought into it a little.

dukestar5 · August 2017

@zamora_spin --yes, definitely. I understand her background and I am not scoffing the idea in the least. I just had never heard that idea before and I found it very fascinating. I was wondering if other ladies on TB had changed their diets based on this idea. I drink a ton of ice water, and eat raw veggies and salad (and sugar too haha). It just made me re-think what I was doing, but I'm not sure I am able to do all cooked foods.

lalala2004 · August 2017

Yeah, I started listening to one podcast and there was a little too much woo for me, and I'm pretty crunchy. I just don't like all of these statements thrown out without exploring the actual evidence. Maybe she does it more in other podcasts, but I was just listening to one I thought would be helpful for me, and it sounds like they're trying to sell you DoTerra. I'm all about the benefits of essential oils, but there is a lot of non-evidence based and unsafe recommendations out there. I'm just skeptical of everything, that's included Western medicine, too!

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

Does anyone know what the research setting in FF is based on? I'm just curious.

pebbledam · August 2017

doxiemoxie212 said:

Does anyone know what the research setting in FF is based on? I'm just curious.

I would like to second this question. I have not been able to find an answer.

bjkay22 · August 2017

I also have a FF related question. I'm fairly new (2 months) to temping and I've been scouring FF and unable to find the exact question/answer I'm looking for. When I sleep, I sleep like the dead until about 4 AM, which is when my DH wakes up. So I usually get up around 4 and go to the restroom and go back to bed until my alarm goes off at 6. I have been taking both temps and it's about a half degree difference. Right now I've been sticking with the 4 AM temp because it's more consistent and it's after a longer period of sleep, I just want to make sure I'm doing this right. If I sleep through the 4 AM DH alarm (about once a week) and don't temp until my 6 AM alarm, it should still be pretty accurate because I haven't moved or been up, I would guess. I haven't noticed any major Rocky Mountain type movements in the temps but it just occurred to me in my half asleep brain this morning that I might be screwing it up.

I hope this makes sense as I haven't had my coffee yet...

bjkay22 · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212

I think I had the same ? a few weeks back and stumbled upon this, sorry if it's not what you were looking for!

https://www.fertilityfriend.com/Faqs/Fertility-Friend-Interpretation-Methods.html

The part part regarding research mode/detector:

"

The Research Detector is our cutting edge research detector. This detector includes all new patterns and improvements as we find them. With time and testing, we roll new findings into the advanced detector when appropriate. Since this detector is continuously under construction, it can be unstable. You should use it only if you wish to check for enhancements that are not yet rolled into the advanced detector."

josie12367 · August 2017

@bjkay22 Yes, I would keep the 4am temps due to your reasoning. If you sleep through your four am alarm, it still might give you higher temps at 6am just because your temp will gradually start increasing whether you get up or not. That's why they stress taking your temp at the same time everyday. If I take mine later than normal, or there's something odd about it, I usually just make a note of it in the notes section so I can discard a temp later if necessary. But if you're chart is looking pretty steady then just keep doing what you're doing.

bjkay22 · August 2017

@josie12367 ok great! That's what I was thinking but I refuse to set a 4 AM alarm and do that every day, hahah so I'll just keep temping when I wake up in that 2 hour window and hope it keeps being normal. Thanks!

charlestonchew · August 2017

This is just a general TTC question: DH recently got some free testosterone boosting supplements. There isn't actually any testosterone in it, just natural herbs and extracts. Should DH consult the doctor on this before taking? Does anyone's spouses take this or have any anecdotes to share?

lurvleybunchococonuts · August 2017

@charlestonchew I have no clue about the answer to your question, but I'm very curious for the answer as well!

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@charlestonchew could you post a pic of the ingredients label? Also what's the brand name?

charlestonchew · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 brand is military labs first strike

charlestonchew · August 2017

When I google the only thing that comes up is actual effects of testosterone and TTC, not "booster supplements".

adirat · August 2017

@charlestonchew I wouldn't do it while ttc. Anything that messes with hormone production messes with sperm, and increases in testosterone decrease count.

canucklehead123 · August 2017

@charlestonchew MH was taking some supplements he bought online (probably quite similar to the ones you shared) and I made him stop when we started TTC because I am highly skeptical about all things...especially when you buy things online, they might not be FDA approved/safe in any way. Zinc, selenium, antioxidants etc... I feel like that's what he should stick to. But also...LOL to Horny Goat Weed

ETA: tagged wrong person whoops.

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

Guys. Can someone smarter than I am determine if Ava's (the wearable device thing - their blog showed up in a google search of mine on something unrelated) takeaway from this study is reasonable? Details in spoiler.

Ava's takeaway:

Contrary to popular belief, BBT doesn’t always rise immediately after you ovulate. According to a study that compared BBT readings with ultrasound—the gold standard in confirming ovulation—only 11 percent of women have a BBT rise within one day of ovulation. For many of the women in the study, BBT did not rise until more than two days after ovulation.

Practically, this means that 89 percent of women using BBT are identifying the wrong ovulation day. If you’re using BBT to time intercourse, you may be over- or undershooting your fertile window by several days and reducing your chances of conceiving.

Based on this study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2001.00194.x/full

ETA for clarity: I don't have any questions about Ava's device, just their specific takeaway on the specific study above, completely unrelated to their device.

sandbar517 · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 I haven't read the study, but based on their summary, what is Ava doing any differently than tracking BBT? I mean, how are they helping women NOT "over or under shoot" their FW? Doesn't make sense...

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@sandbar517 I mean, I don't think Ava is the better option to BBT. I'm more curious about the study itself, and the idea that I/we may have my/our O date wrong despite careful tracking of CM, BBT and OPKs (not that it would be the reason I'm not KU yet since it feels like I'm banging my husband all the time these days).

canucklehead123 · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 hmm interesting study - I have heard before that CM is more reliable than temps and this is what this study is essentially saying... fair to say temps still confirm ovulation, but may confirm a few days after in some cases (and not immediately the next day). BUT I don't know if I agree with Ava's interpretation...they are taking the statistics from the study (a sample of 300 or so women) and generalizing to ALL women.... ermm probably not so accurate lol. I think the takeaway here is: if you are only using BBT, you might not be so accurate in timing ovulation - CM might better predict your exact ovulation date, and your temps will eventually rise to confirm.

charlestonchew · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 I think that could be an accurate statement, however that is why most smart charters also track other fertility signs. I sometimes only see a small temp jump the day after ovulation but that is also in conjunction with cervical mucus or ovulation test. I feel like this is another marketing tactic from Ava.

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@charlestonchew @canucklehead123 I agree, but it seems they're (the they in this being the study, not Ava) also saying that LH (OPKs) can be off as well. I mean, I guess the ultimate takeaway is "every human body is different so WHO KNOWS MAYBE" but whatever, that annoys me lol.

charlestonchew · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 oh okay, I didn't actually read the study, only read your spoiler. I mean then what do they suggest us doing? Come up with a better way to pinpoint O!

lalala2004 · August 2017

doxiemoxie212 said:

Guys. Can someone smarter than I am determine if Ava's (the wearable device thing - their blog showed up in a google search of mine on something unrelated) takeaway from this study is reasonable? Details in spoiler.

Ava's takeaway:

Contrary to popular belief, BBT doesn’t always rise immediately after you ovulate. According to a study that compared BBT readings with ultrasound—the gold standard in confirming ovulation—only 11 percent of women have a BBT rise within one day of ovulation. For many of the women in the study, BBT did not rise until more than two days after ovulation.

Practically, this means that 89 percent of women using BBT are identifying the wrong ovulation day. If you’re using BBT to time intercourse, you may be over- or undershooting your fertile window by several days and reducing your chances of conceiving.

Based on this study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2001.00194.x/full

I didn't read the whole study, but it was more about LH that BBT. The main conclusion was that LH surge was a better predictor than LH peak. Essentially that it's better to time intercourse when LH is rising, and if you wait until the peak, it may be too late. I didn't see what the Ava blog said about BBT in there, but maybe I missed it.

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@charlestonchew I mean, I think the study is just trying to say that anything other than an ultrasound can be off for women, so regular everyday humans can really only estimate O, we can't know for certain - I guess, unless you keep going in for ultrasounds and figure out what's normal for you? Ava is extrapolating from the study to suit their needs (though again, not sure I buy that it actually is suiting their needs).

I guess I just thought BBT was retrospectively more accurate than this study seems to conclude.

sandbar517 · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 Right, I agree. I guess my question is, how was Ava using that study as evidence that its product would be SO much better! than regular BBT? Did they offer any other interpretation on the study that "proves" why Ava is better than BBT?

ETA: After looking at the Ava website, it appears the only difference is that they also track resting heart rate which raises "significantly" (2 beats per minute ::insert eye roll here::) during your fertile window.

doxiemoxie212 · August 2017

@sandbar517 no, the blog post (which is linked in the spoiler) is literally just talking about how BBT isn't the holy grail. They're not talking about themselves necessarily (which is good on their PR team because generally people don't like reading blogs that are self serving). If you look at Ava's website overall, though, their claims are related to a lot of other factors beyond BBT - heart rate, etc., but this study doesn't look at those things at all. Ava does have a fair amount of clinical data in their court, but since I don't have anything preventing me from temping with a regular thermometer, I don't think I need to spend $200 on their device, so I haven't researched it much beyond seeing social media videos and @fishsticks-n-custard's review

Again, to reiterate, my question was not about Ava. My question was about the study - I just got to that question via Ava via an unrelated-to-Ava google search. Just want to make sure everyone is clear.

sandbar517 · August 2017

@doxiemoxie212 Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion. I tried to quickly read the study, and clicked on the source they cited for the small part about the BBT. The source study basically said in 63 cycles they tested, the estimated time of ovulation happened anywhere from 5 days before to 4 days after the lowest basal temp, and 6 days before to 3 days after the first day of BBT rise. Basically, yeah, they have no idea. There's no good way to pinpoint O, we're all doomed. LOL

lalala2004 · August 2017

sandbar517 said:

@doxiemoxie212 Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion. I tried to quickly read the study, and clicked on the source they cited for the small part about the BBT. The source study basically said in 63 cycles they tested, the estimated time of ovulation happened anywhere from 5 days before to 4 days after the lowest basal temp, and 6 days before to 3 days after the first day of BBT rise. Basically, yeah, they have no idea. There's no good way to pinpoint O, we're all doomed. LOL

It's really not so bad, I guess it's just a matter of humping it out within a 10-12 day window instead of a typical 5 day window. It definitely makes a case for tracking CM and using OPKs, though. We all know BBT alone is only useful in hindsight and for future cycles if one has regular cycles, but we all know that can change at anytime, anyway!

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