Infertility

Anyone doing IVF in July/August?

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Re: Anyone doing IVF in July/August?

  • I just caught up on all your updates. That literally took me 15 minutes. That'll teach me to not stop and check-in lol. Now it's time for lunch but I will be back to comment!  

    Me:35 DH:37
    Married 09/2013

    *TW* TTC #2 since June 2016 *END TW*

    Endometriosis

    March 2017- IUI#1- Clomid - BFN
    April 2017 - IUI #2 - Clomid, Ovidrel - BFN
    May 2017 - IUI #3 - Clomid- cancelled cycle

    July 2017- IVF #1-Microdose Lupron protocol, Gonal-F, Menopur, HCG trigger- 12 mature eggs, 9 fertilized, 4 frozen- 2 PGS normal!!

    August 2017- FET #1

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  • @Hopeful_mom I'm going to shop around. It says on my protocol if fet does work I have to do those shots for 12 weeks. That's gonna cost a fortune. 
    @marioana99 I am so sorry you didn't get good news. Thinking about you. 
    @Aera11 I don't think that hurts staying on the pill. 
    @dragonette505 is this your first cycle? 
    TTC 4 years. 7 failed IUI's with either Clomid, Femara and/or Trigger Shots. Started IVF journey in February 2017. Polyps removed in May. 1st IVF Transfer September 26th. BFP. Expected due date 6/14/18. Baby boy born 5/25/18 at 6 lb 9 oz. My bundle of joy. 
  • @Holls214 Nope! This will be my 6th :/ lol
  • Aera11Aera11 member
    @dragonette505 I don't remember the dosage I'm taking but the three vials should get me 12 nights so I'd finish right around retrieval.  I'll start cd2 & use it until I run out basically.

    @Holls214 yeah I guess bcp is actually supposed to help the cyst go down, so FX!!
  • @Aera11 That sucks about the cyst and having to be benched for a little bit. I had one at 40mm after 2 weeks of BCPs. They definitely help shrink them though. I took them for another few days and then it was gone at my 1st stims ultrasound. I know you'll be ready to go in two weeks!

    Me:35 DH:37
    Married 09/2013

    *TW* TTC #2 since June 2016 *END TW*

    Endometriosis

    March 2017- IUI#1- Clomid - BFN
    April 2017 - IUI #2 - Clomid, Ovidrel - BFN
    May 2017 - IUI #3 - Clomid- cancelled cycle

    July 2017- IVF #1-Microdose Lupron protocol, Gonal-F, Menopur, HCG trigger- 12 mature eggs, 9 fertilized, 4 frozen- 2 PGS normal!!

    August 2017- FET #1

  • @Aera well dammit, how come you get so much more than me??? lolol... I did ask why it was so little (those vials are teeny!), but I guess its meant to be diluted, so honestly I have no idea how many days I will be taking it :( I WANT MY GROWTH JUICE! lol. My doc did say that she thought I had be over medicated at the beginning of my cycles, so maybe shes just giving me a smaller dose? :/
  • @marioana99 FC they tell you at least to BD tonight...
  • Aera11Aera11 member
    @allycheer00 yeah I've usually ended up on bcp between cycles, I've just never had to wait past what was going to be my start date but two weeks in the big picture isn't too bad.

    haha @dragonette505!! Yeah, they're as small as a menopur but I'll add the entire dilutant to it.  When I did some research it sounded like there's a few different protocols for it, so I guess this is what they hope will work for me!  What cycle day will you start yours?  I'm so curious to see how we'll both react to it, hopefully it will be a great improvement for us :)

    thanks @Bababatty!  I'm not going anywhere;)

    @Momifbysea that's my birthday!  I'll definitely be a very end of August retrieval now & a September transfer.

    we just got ok'd to transfer three day-3 embabies (if we have 3)!!  
  • dragonette505dragonette505 member
    edited July 2017
    @Aera11 Will post below (in spoiler) my original mock schedule (the later days have no meds because its likely they would be adjusted...
    ETA... you can see how far behind I am from this start date :/




  • @marioana99 - keeping everything crossed for you, sending you lots of good vibes!!! This is so stressful!

    I'd BD anyway, tbh... I'm not a doctor, but with your history, it'd be very hard not to take matters into my own hands!
  • @dragonette505 omg we are going to be so close!!!  I expect AF like Aug 15 or 16, stimming 17th or 18th!!! Squee!!

    Ugh except I just found out for biopsy I have to pay up front and wait to hear back if they decided it was "medically necessary."  So that's $4,200 we have to cough up OOP now and wait to see how much we get back.  Gulp.

    @marioana99. I am so, so sorry your cycle sounds like it's been cancelled.  (((Hugs)))
  • @BusinessWife Ugh! Is it the endometrial biopsy thingy? My doc mentioned that as well as a possibility. I hope my period acts right this cycle and im on that timeframe. I just posted my original schedule for this cycle and being reminded that i should have been cycling already is a bummer :( lol But i will def be in good company with the August crew!!
  • Aera11Aera11 member
    @dragonette505 do they make they chart for you?! Super handy!!  

    @BusinessWife we'll hopefully be chuck buddies!  I'm hoping AF will be here August 16th!  I did the biopsy/uterine scrape last round.
  • @marioana99 Sending you lucky vibes that you don't ovulate before ER. Sorry that you're having a rough cycle. These things are so unpredictable!

    Me:35 DH:37
    Married 09/2013

    *TW* TTC #2 since June 2016 *END TW*

    Endometriosis

    March 2017- IUI#1- Clomid - BFN
    April 2017 - IUI #2 - Clomid, Ovidrel - BFN
    May 2017 - IUI #3 - Clomid- cancelled cycle

    July 2017- IVF #1-Microdose Lupron protocol, Gonal-F, Menopur, HCG trigger- 12 mature eggs, 9 fertilized, 4 frozen- 2 PGS normal!!

    August 2017- FET #1

  • Just got the call, they are converting it to an IUI tomorrow. I am supposed to give the trigger today between 6 and 10 PM , and then IUI tomorrow at 9:30.  Maybe someone with more experience in IUI can clarify this for me, but what's the point of the trigger if I am ovulating already?  Even if I am not ovulating the trigger will take effect only on Saturday, then why do the IUI tomorrow? I am confused...
    DOR (FSH 13, AMH 0.48, AFC 6-9)
    IVF #1 -2016 March, antagonist, 5 eggs, 2 fertilized, 3DT - 8 cell and 6 cell no frag, chemical pregnancy
    IVF #2 - 2016 June, micro dose lupron, 3 eggs, 1 fertilized, 3DT 6 cell, BFN
    IVF #3 - 2016 November, estrogen priming + antagonist, 9 follicles, 3 eggs, none fertilized
    IVF #4 - 2017 March, testosterone priming + micro dose lupron, 2 eggs, none fertilized
    IVF #5 - 2017 May, A/ACP protocol, 4 follicles out of 7 seemed to get to required size, ovulated before retrieval, converted into IUI - BFN
    IVF #6 - 2017 July, A/ACP protocol, 3 follicles one stopped growing, LH rising, converted to IUI - BFN
    IVF #7 - 2017 September, antagonist, 5 follicles, 6 eggs,  3 immature, 3 injected, 1 fertilized, stopped growing day 3
  • edited July 2017
    @Aera11. Oh awesome!!  This is my first cycle so it all feels so foreign.  Just trying to roll with it.  Do you post your protocol yet?

    @dragonette505 oh no, you know, I'm sorry bc what you said would make sense.  But I'm talking about the embryo biopsy... whereby the gather the sample to do pgs.  So you've deemed the test medically necessary?  But not the procedure to get the sample you need to <i>run</i> the test????

    Not sure if they will want to do an endometeial scratch for me or not... :/  I guess were not ther ywt since that would be closer to FET, right?  I just know were doing a freeze-all to test, and go from there.

    ETA The manager called me back and said my authorization is going in tomorrow morning.  Fx the biopsy is aproved a d then they wont have to collect the 1700, but we should know in advance. Phew!
  • @marioana99My best guess is because HCG can also help with maturing of eggs/follicles... If you are already O'ing, HCG wont hurt and might possibly ensure that the egg/eggs you O are mature...just a guess tho! Im glad they are doing this, tho... its much more proactive than just letting this O go by.

    @Aera11 Yup... they make these calendars for you when you are in prep for the cycle (so when i go back to see if I ovulated i guess) so its pretty handy even to refer to ahead of time! (like i now my doses and etc).

    @BusinessWife Ooops! My first thought WAS embie biopsy (i am STILL on the fence for that!! eeek!) then i thought endo scratch because i didnt know you could ever get coverage for pgs/pgd! Hell, that would be amazing! How are claiming it? Might try it myself if we decide to go that route!
  • @marioana99 when I did iui with trigger I would trigger 36 hours before... maybe they changed something or feel like that's best? Anyways fingers crossed for you! 
    TTC 4 years. 7 failed IUI's with either Clomid, Femara and/or Trigger Shots. Started IVF journey in February 2017. Polyps removed in May. 1st IVF Transfer September 26th. BFP. Expected due date 6/14/18. Baby boy born 5/25/18 at 6 lb 9 oz. My bundle of joy. 
  • I honestly have no idea @dragonette505 the financial coordinator submitted it for us.  Not sure if it's approved based on the TESE or what exactly...
  • @BusinessWife Ah!!! Makes sense!! Well I'm old! It ought to be paid for for old ladies!! Lol!! 
  • @marioana99 - sorry to see your update...I know its frustrating went through the same with cycle too for poor response!  Good thing is you've got more then one hopefully! The advice above given I believe is correct as well the trigger will help mature the eggs and get them ready to be fertilized.  I have done back to back IUIs, are you scheduled to do one tomorrow and one the following day?  My guess is they're concerned that you are ovulating and probably will have a better shot at catching it tomorrow as you usually to the IUI a full day after trigger.  I would take your trigger now if you haven't already!  Best of luck really hoping your DH has some champion swimmers ready to go :)

    Aera11 i'm laughing at your post as i'm sitting here trying to do the same with my Estrogen patch i don't want to have it on too long before AF arrives....

    dragonette505 i love fresh transfers i wish i had more normal embryos to try it now!!  Since i'm testing them they say you have to do an FET, BUT since i know i have normies i wanted to use one BUT they say that the frozen don't have as much success during a fresh transfer...so I will have to wait it out...
    You get calendars for IVF to thats fancy!  First calendar I got was for an FET,  Probably cause they call with the info as it could change as we go...

    Bababatty suppositories is what i used as well, my RE was reading a study that just came out that mentioned PIO helps and should be used a lil, you don't have to tell me 2x, so g-d willing when i"m ready for my Fet i'll be using both.

    Momifbysea yep i go to appt alone too :(  it is what it is I guess...he did come after the MC to a bunch, so I at least had that!  

    BusinessWife wait a sec, the 4700 or 1700 is for the for the lab taking the biopsy for pgs?  I have to look now how much mine was...I'm OOP for everything so its like you pay 15k and it gives you all of this...Hoping you get the approval!  Any lil bit helps!

    AFM: I finally gave in and just put the patch on, now i'm hoping AF will show up within the week...I'll probably be one of the first up in august :)  why these boards need to be 2 months ;)
    History of TTC in spoiler box
    TTC since 2014
    Unexplained Infertility - but I am 40...Low AMH .30
    7 - IUI (50mg-150mg Clomid) Feb - August 2016 all BFN 
    IVF#1 August 2016 (Antagonist protocol 4/5 eggs) Cancelled cycle :( RE thought I would get at least 10.
    IVF#2 Sept 2016 (microdose luporn pro - disappearing follies, ONLY ONE, convert to IUI) BFN
    IVF#3 November 2016 (4 ER, 3 F,  3DT)-BFP  with TWINS // MC both at almost 10wks  :'( 
    IVF#4 March 2017 //EPP  (10 ER (1 wonky so 9 ER) 7F, 3B (5AB, (2)5BB) PGS tested- ALL abnormal  :'( 
    IVF#5 April 2017 // EPP (7 ER, 7F yes! 6B) 2/5 day 4/6 day - 2 PGS normal! yes!! :)
    IVF#6 May 2017 // Antagonist didn't have time for Estrogen Priming...(4 ER, 3 F, 3B) (5AB, (2) 5BB) 2 PGS normal, yes!! :)
    IVF#7 June 2017 // EPP praying this is it and then on to an FET!

  • Holls214 look how close august is ;)

    helloworld9  thinking happy thoughts good news is coming!!

    allycheer00 you're a fast reader take me way more then 15minutes ;)  When is the next update on your embabies?  keeping sprinkling the miracle grow!!

    History of TTC in spoiler box
    TTC since 2014
    Unexplained Infertility - but I am 40...Low AMH .30
    7 - IUI (50mg-150mg Clomid) Feb - August 2016 all BFN 
    IVF#1 August 2016 (Antagonist protocol 4/5 eggs) Cancelled cycle :( RE thought I would get at least 10.
    IVF#2 Sept 2016 (microdose luporn pro - disappearing follies, ONLY ONE, convert to IUI) BFN
    IVF#3 November 2016 (4 ER, 3 F,  3DT)-BFP  with TWINS // MC both at almost 10wks  :'( 
    IVF#4 March 2017 //EPP  (10 ER (1 wonky so 9 ER) 7F, 3B (5AB, (2)5BB) PGS tested- ALL abnormal  :'( 
    IVF#5 April 2017 // EPP (7 ER, 7F yes! 6B) 2/5 day 4/6 day - 2 PGS normal! yes!! :)
    IVF#6 May 2017 // Antagonist didn't have time for Estrogen Priming...(4 ER, 3 F, 3B) (5AB, (2) 5BB) 2 PGS normal, yes!! :)
    IVF#7 June 2017 // EPP praying this is it and then on to an FET!

  • @Hopeful_mom they only scheduled me for tomorrow, didn't mention anything about another one. But I plan to BD tomorrow night and Saturday, I don't care if DH is in the mood or not :p, I did't went through 2 weeks of shots to give up that easily.
    DOR (FSH 13, AMH 0.48, AFC 6-9)
    IVF #1 -2016 March, antagonist, 5 eggs, 2 fertilized, 3DT - 8 cell and 6 cell no frag, chemical pregnancy
    IVF #2 - 2016 June, micro dose lupron, 3 eggs, 1 fertilized, 3DT 6 cell, BFN
    IVF #3 - 2016 November, estrogen priming + antagonist, 9 follicles, 3 eggs, none fertilized
    IVF #4 - 2017 March, testosterone priming + micro dose lupron, 2 eggs, none fertilized
    IVF #5 - 2017 May, A/ACP protocol, 4 follicles out of 7 seemed to get to required size, ovulated before retrieval, converted into IUI - BFN
    IVF #6 - 2017 July, A/ACP protocol, 3 follicles one stopped growing, LH rising, converted to IUI - BFN
    IVF #7 - 2017 September, antagonist, 5 follicles, 6 eggs,  3 immature, 3 injected, 1 fertilized, stopped growing day 3
  • @marioana99 maybe see if they can do back to back iui? :) good luck to you! 
    TTC 4 years. 7 failed IUI's with either Clomid, Femara and/or Trigger Shots. Started IVF journey in February 2017. Polyps removed in May. 1st IVF Transfer September 26th. BFP. Expected due date 6/14/18. Baby boy born 5/25/18 at 6 lb 9 oz. My bundle of joy. 
  • @Hopeful_mom. It was 2500 for PGS and 1700 for the actual biopsy of the embryos... 4200 combined. :/
  • Holls214Holls214 member
    edited July 2017
    @BusinessWife that's about what ours was too I think. Argh. So spendy. 
    TTC 4 years. 7 failed IUI's with either Clomid, Femara and/or Trigger Shots. Started IVF journey in February 2017. Polyps removed in May. 1st IVF Transfer September 26th. BFP. Expected due date 6/14/18. Baby boy born 5/25/18 at 6 lb 9 oz. My bundle of joy. 
  • Aera11Aera11 member
    @BusinessWife yes, I have my schedule!  I haven't posted it but I could.  All my meds are in the pm, I usually do 6:30pm.  75 Gonal F, 150 menopur, 25 Omnitrope, then I'll add in cetrotide & trigger with two ovidrel.  I take prenatal, vitamin d, baby aspirin, coq10, dhea, myo inositol, açai & then they add in dexomethosome when I start stims.  It's a lot but I have it down now!
  • Aera11  mines pretty similar but higher doses 300 gonal f and 300 menpur no omitrope.  Why the baby aspirin now?  I was just doing that for the FET.
    History of TTC in spoiler box
    TTC since 2014
    Unexplained Infertility - but I am 40...Low AMH .30
    7 - IUI (50mg-150mg Clomid) Feb - August 2016 all BFN 
    IVF#1 August 2016 (Antagonist protocol 4/5 eggs) Cancelled cycle :( RE thought I would get at least 10.
    IVF#2 Sept 2016 (microdose luporn pro - disappearing follies, ONLY ONE, convert to IUI) BFN
    IVF#3 November 2016 (4 ER, 3 F,  3DT)-BFP  with TWINS // MC both at almost 10wks  :'( 
    IVF#4 March 2017 //EPP  (10 ER (1 wonky so 9 ER) 7F, 3B (5AB, (2)5BB) PGS tested- ALL abnormal  :'( 
    IVF#5 April 2017 // EPP (7 ER, 7F yes! 6B) 2/5 day 4/6 day - 2 PGS normal! yes!! :)
    IVF#6 May 2017 // Antagonist didn't have time for Estrogen Priming...(4 ER, 3 F, 3B) (5AB, (2) 5BB) 2 PGS normal, yes!! :)
    IVF#7 June 2017 // EPP praying this is it and then on to an FET!

  • Aera11Aera11 member
    I'm on baby aspirin all the time @Hopeful_mom, I guess I have a blood clotting issue.  They have me stop though before retrieval.
  • Aera11 that makes sense!  And you've had some ER you certainly need to stop prior!  I wish I was taking it prior to my transfer...I still wonder if that was ever an issue for me.
    History of TTC in spoiler box
    TTC since 2014
    Unexplained Infertility - but I am 40...Low AMH .30
    7 - IUI (50mg-150mg Clomid) Feb - August 2016 all BFN 
    IVF#1 August 2016 (Antagonist protocol 4/5 eggs) Cancelled cycle :( RE thought I would get at least 10.
    IVF#2 Sept 2016 (microdose luporn pro - disappearing follies, ONLY ONE, convert to IUI) BFN
    IVF#3 November 2016 (4 ER, 3 F,  3DT)-BFP  with TWINS // MC both at almost 10wks  :'( 
    IVF#4 March 2017 //EPP  (10 ER (1 wonky so 9 ER) 7F, 3B (5AB, (2)5BB) PGS tested- ALL abnormal  :'( 
    IVF#5 April 2017 // EPP (7 ER, 7F yes! 6B) 2/5 day 4/6 day - 2 PGS normal! yes!! :)
    IVF#6 May 2017 // Antagonist didn't have time for Estrogen Priming...(4 ER, 3 F, 3B) (5AB, (2) 5BB) 2 PGS normal, yes!! :)
    IVF#7 June 2017 // EPP praying this is it and then on to an FET!

  • edited July 2017
    <blockquote class="Quote">
    <div><a rel="nofollow">Aera11</a> said:</div>
    <div>@BusinessWife yes, I have my schedule!  I haven't posted it but I could.  All my meds are in the pm, I usually do 6:30pm.  75 Gonal F, 150 menopur, 25 Omnitrope, then I'll add in cetrotide & trigger with two ovidrel.  I take prenatal, vitamin d, baby aspirin, coq10, dhea, myo inositol, açai & then they add in dexomethosome when I start stims.  It's a lot but I have it down now!</div>
    </blockquote>
    Oh cool!  I don't know my timing, probably PM too.  I guess I won't worry too much about the doses just yet.  I want to say starting at 225 follistim tho (is that high??  You're just doing 75?) Plus low-dose HCG both starting on CD3. Then 250 ganirelix to suppress and 10,000 HCG trigger.  Adjusting doses as needed based on monitoring obv.

    I also take prenatalzzzz, coQ10, B6, Calcium, D, DHA, Selenium, and Zinc.  And fiber.  Maca, I've been taking for a while, tho maybe not the full 6-tablets dose - more like 3-4 caps a day.  The myoinositol I just started taking again about a month ago, so I how its not to late to make a difference, since it'll only be a couple months or 10 weeks maybe I've been on it by the time we do retrieval. :/ [ETA oh, and melatonin at bedtime... I've been taking that foe a while now since it helps me sleep, but then I heard it helps egg quality, too.]

    Did your doctor tell you any reason you have to stop taking that (myo-inositol) during stimming? Do you have PCOS?  I started taking it bc it was recommended to DH for his type 1.5 diabetes, along with metformin.  But then once we got our azoo dx, I stopped taking the inosotol, Maca, DHA etc.... but now that we've been getting closer to retrieval and fx ACTUAL PREGNANCY, I added some of those things back in....
  • @helloworld9 fx you hear back great PGS results this morning!!! ❤

    Guys, I am maybe being a drag, but I dunno.  I guess now that things are really about to happen, I'm excited, but also just bummed we have to do any of it in the first place. :/  plus with the MFI health with, now we get to go right into ivf for me, fx we don't really have any issues on my end, (cd3 numbers looked good, repeat saline sono today), but then it almost feels like "cheating."  Don't get me wrong, we had no idea if we would even find sperm, let alone still if we will get healthy blasts to freeze, but in the ivf world with so many of us women struggling and doing repeat cycles. - I'm sure I could just as easily have to repeat too, - but a part of me almost feels like an IF imposter or something, being an azoo wife.  I dunno.  Maybe that's stupid.  I dunno why it has to still feel so isolating, even tho I know we are all here for each other and in it together.  Sigh.  I dunno.

    Thanks for letting me DD... I know you ladies understand all the mix and up and down of emotions more than most. ❤
  • @marioana99 Hope your IUI went well and that it works!

    @businessWife My Gonal-F started off at 225 and went to 275 in the end.

    @Hopeful_Mom I have to be quick. I have a really fast-paced job so I honestly don't have much time for anything. I'm waiting for my Day 5 update today. I wish they'd call already. Hurry up AF. I'm ready for you to get started. This will be a good cycle for you!

    @Aera11 So exciting when you get your schedule. I've seen a few people with cetrotide in their plan.  I didn't take mine until the day after retrieval. I wonder why it's different.

    Me:35 DH:37
    Married 09/2013

    *TW* TTC #2 since June 2016 *END TW*

    Endometriosis

    March 2017- IUI#1- Clomid - BFN
    April 2017 - IUI #2 - Clomid, Ovidrel - BFN
    May 2017 - IUI #3 - Clomid- cancelled cycle

    July 2017- IVF #1-Microdose Lupron protocol, Gonal-F, Menopur, HCG trigger- 12 mature eggs, 9 fertilized, 4 frozen- 2 PGS normal!!

    August 2017- FET #1

  • @Hopeful_mom re: Fresh Transfers.... My doc isnt against it, but she stresses that frozen might be better especially if i get OHSS again but also it might make sense to plan to do another cycle. But i guess i just have some desire to go through IVF and transfer fresh since i havent gotten to.

    @Momifbysea For my first two cycles my DH only went to weekend appointments, but as we get further along this road, i just need more support so ive told him I need him there. I used to leave him in the waiting room but we are at the "Nope...you have to look at my ovaries too" stage. Its all so stressful i just need him there

    @BusinessWife Hmmm my biopsies are covered but not the testing . It is definitely a bummer that we are going through all of this... Its hard because there are no garauntees... I never thought i would be heading into cycle number 6 and still at it. But if i have to be going through this, i couldnt pick a better bunch of ivf sisters.

    @Aera11 whats dexomethosome? Wonder what the diff is between your 25 (units?) omnitrope and my 1ml? lol I bet doctors HATE that we are all out here comparing protocols! lol ps... interestingly my nurse says i will be taking my ganerelix in the AM which i had never heard of before, but she says thats pretty common for this clinic




  • @dragonette505 I took one injection of Lupron in the morning and the other at night with the Gonal and Menopur. It's crazy to see all the variations in protocols.


    Me:35 DH:37
    Married 09/2013

    *TW* TTC #2 since June 2016 *END TW*

    Endometriosis

    March 2017- IUI#1- Clomid - BFN
    April 2017 - IUI #2 - Clomid, Ovidrel - BFN
    May 2017 - IUI #3 - Clomid- cancelled cycle

    July 2017- IVF #1-Microdose Lupron protocol, Gonal-F, Menopur, HCG trigger- 12 mature eggs, 9 fertilized, 4 frozen- 2 PGS normal!!

    August 2017- FET #1

  • @dragonette505 I took one injection of Lupron in the morning and the other at night with the Gonal and Menopur. It's crazy to see all the variations in protocols.



    Yeah when I did Lupron I did one morning and one night, but ive never done ganerelix in the AM... she told me their reasoning is that they can better control changes they make in the evening doses if they are suppressing in the am or something like that (I mean she told me all this 3 cycles ago and I cant remember anymore!)
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