I kind of took the "white trashy" comment more of a reflection of the attitudes and behaviors more than the skin color. Like being in jail multiple times, not being part of societal norm.
I understand they way it was used and i get what you meant but just because i do doesnt mean someone else will. It is offensive. It is discriminatory no matter what you meant. The term means what it says. Do i think you are a racist-no but using that term is still improper. I cant believe that any person would not absolutely say hey that is wrong dont say that.
@mjsommer I get what your trying to say. But it isn't a racial slur. It does not apply to people of the white race as a whole. It applies to a certain class within the white race, based on socio-economic reasons. Even in the documentary, Steven Avery admitted that the entire small town was full of "rednecks" and "hillbillies", but that his family was ostracized for being "white trash". The thing they all have in common: white, poor, and generally uneducated. The difference: Avery's family was also seen as law-breaking and dangerous because of their economic status (note: not because of their race).
@NiceyMeany stated it very well. And you can spin it any way you want, but it's still not racially based.
Also I'm kind of biased because I've got to know @PerraSucia and she's like the least racist person ever.
Yeah I'll agree with that, as well as with @NiceyMeany. I'm not a fan of the term, but I also don't believe that racism against whites in this country (the U.S.) is a thing, and those that think it is often use it to justify some pretty abhorrent behavior. I'm not saying you were doing that at all,@mjsommer, but people do. I do agree with the term "derogatory" that you used in your explanation, but I also think that @PerraSucia has proven herself to be extremely awesome in her time here and meant no harm.
I think as we become more tolerant and PC and all of that, we're constantly learning that things are inappropriate to say and can hurt other people whereas they used to be the norm and used in common conversation. I can think of many examples of words and labels my parents and grandparents still don't understand are innapropriate to use now. I personally never thought of it as a racial slur but I can see that it is clearly rubbing you the wrong way so there must be others out there that are hurt by it as well. It didn't seem to me that @perrasucia had any ill intent towards anyone and was using the term how I'm sure I've used it before.
I mean Steven Avery burned a living cat to death, hit someone with a car and pulled a gun on her then repeated flashed his dick at her when she drove by.
even if he did or did not kill this person, he's a piece of trash. Sorry if you relate to this person and his lifestyle so my opinion offends you.
There is a huge difference between being racist to your own people and judging people's actions.
Nope, @mjsommer, that's really not how racism works. Racism means using your the social majority of your own race to discriminate against or belittle members of another. You can't be racist against white people in America. It's not possible.
You can, however, be classist. And the phrase "white trash" is definitely classist. It's not an appropriate term to use under any circumstances, but I would caution strongly against calling someone's use of the term "racist." The claim of racism against white people in America co-opts the word in a way that is belittling to the struggle of our racial minorities. The phrase "white trash" is distasteful, certainly, but all white people in America have the ability to code-switch out of the "trash" label, given enough resources. Racial minorities do not have that option.
Well you seemed offended by my statement because I would also consider you white trashy but I felt like I was trying to clarify it wasn't his economic situation or low IQ but being a generally shit person as to why I used the term. I mean in this case it's slightly ironic because he did live at a dump, but I think you took the comment more personally than everyone else because of your own experiences. @mjsommer
Well honestly i was a bit. It sucks to have people call you that. I imagine it sucked for him too. Some peoplw even white ones cannot afford or do not have the same opportunities to get out of crappy childhoods. They are then stuck in a vicious cycle of low income no edication probably in and out of jail lives. I dont think breaking the law os righf but we have seen again and again that those circumstamces def help make that statemnt true. Not for all by any means but some. I was just trying to educate on why thats offensiclve and why we should never condone the use of terms words etc that sterotype groups of people. Sorry for my messy typing i have a new keyboard and its different spacing.
Well you seemed offended by my statement because I would also consider you white trashy but I felt like I was trying to clarify it wasn't his economic situation or low IQ but being a generally shit person as to why I used the term. I mean in this case it's slightly ironic because he did live at a dump, but I think you took the comment more personally than everyone else because of your own experiences. @mjsommer
I was planning on staying out of this one.....unless I'm missing something here, THAT was low and dirty and a personal jab..... Not cool IMO
For any other group of people calling them an offensive name based on economic status/in and out of jail time/ and education wpuld be totally wrong. Forget skin color just those things.
@Jlk2016 she didnt mean i was white trash its just an oddly wordsd sentence!
Ok.... Yeah that's why I said "unless I'm missing something" thank you for clarifying @mjsommer I worked the late shift and am going on 3 hours of constant interrupted sleep! Phew!
Well you seemed offended by my statement because I would also consider you white trashy but I felt like I was trying to clarify it wasn't his economic situation or low IQ but being a generally shit person as to why I used the term. I mean in this case it's slightly ironic because he did live at a dump, but I think you took the comment more personally than everyone else because of your own experiences. @mjsommer
I was planning on staying out of this one.....unless I'm missing something here, THAT was low and dirty and a personal jab..... Not cool IMO
I think perra was referring to mjsommer saying that her family would be considered white trash? At least that's how I read it.
I'm happy. I watched Making A Murderer and the way the interrogated him was just awful. Guilty or not, that is no way to get a "confession" from someone. I'm still on the fence about Stephen Avery, but I agree that the way the police dealt with it was wrong on so many levels, and no one deserves a conviction based on that kind of investigation.
I feel like someone else said something similar to this earlier. But I would even go further to say that trash doesn't necessarily mean low income/poor. To me it has so much more to do with behaviors. Particularly the behaviors of Avery as previously discussed.
I know now that historically just being poor or substandard living conditions have been associated with "trash." But there are plenty of low income/poor people who are perfect citizens.
Me: 36, H: 37 FTM, 2 Furbabies married 03/17/07 lived in Houston, Austin, Los Angeles and NYC due: 2/15/17
You absolutely can be racist against white people. You don't think a person of another race can feel his race is superior just bc it's not the majority? Sure they can. Just because that racism doesn't manifest institutionally and white privilege is a far greater force in our society doesn't mean people can't and don't lump whites together and believe negative things about them -- they do. And that's racism.
I didnt take perra's comment any kind of way, though. Maybe it's because she's white - you're kind of allowed to say things about your own race that outsiders aren't. Idk.
The white trash comment isn't racist but white people can definitely deal with racism. I'm mixed but my dad and husband are white and they have both had some shitty things said to them because they are white. Racism can be towards any race.
@mommabean the problem with your argument is that racism is not an individual attitude or behavior. Racism is a systemic structure. One person believing their group is better than another does not make for racism - that's just garden-variety bigotry. Racism is a system of constructs within a society that are designed to both prop up the racial majority and denigrate the racial minority.
Anyone of any race can be an asshole. But racism necessarily and by definition requires an imbalance of power in favor of the racist party.
@NiceyMeany I disagree. An individual or group can hold racist beliefs and be racist. Power is not necessary. In this case, racism and bigotry are synonymous. This is, of course, different from systemic or institutional racism which also very much exists, supports an imbalance of power, and serves whites - I agree with you there.
ETA: I think you may be defining racism based on the effect it has - because racism against whites in America will never impact them they way it does minority races, obviously - but systemic oppression isn't a necessary result of racism. And perhaps I'm being too much of a semanticist in insisting on an accurate definition of the word, but I don't think it's fair or accurate for you to say there cannot be white racial slurs and white people cannot experience racism.
Where are you guys getting your definition? I even checked several dictionary sources before my last reply so as not to misspeak! I think perhaps I'm talking about the denotative meaning and you're talking about the connotative. I've never known economic power to be an *essential* connotation of racism, but that's the thing with connotative meanings. Or maybe you're conflating institutional racism with the term itself, which I mentioned above -- you're saying that an individual can't be a racist unless he's white??
I completely agree that the terms racist/racism are thrown around way too much -- I teach high schoolers. Though they tend to call anything raciAL "racist."
@MommaBean obviously you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine with me. I respect your right to a differing opinion. But I do feel the need to add that framing racism as individual acts perpetrated by individual racists is part of the problem because it allows white people to benefit from the structures of racism while declaring, "but I'm not a racist." It is more productive for white people to acknowledge that they benefit from the white privilege instituted by racist structures than it is to separate ourselves into "racists" and "not racists." The fact that I choose not to participate in racist attitudes and behaviors does not absolve me from acknowledging the benefits and privileges I receive as a member of the racial majority.
I'm not conflating definitions, and I'm not mistaking my terms. And I'm certainly not saying that a person can't be racist if he's not white - although I am firmly and without hesitation affirming that you cannot be racist against white people in America. I'm saying that the commonly-accepted definition of racism as a set of attitudes and behaviors is wrong and can be counterproductive and even damaging. It allows members of the racial majority to separate themselves from other people based on their attitudes and behaviors, which then shields them from having to do something about it.
I guess I wasn't done. But I am now. Feel free to respond if you want, but I think we've taken this conversation far enough off topic.
I appreciate you acknowledging that you're taking issue with the commonly held definition, not arguing about what the commonly held definition is - important distinction in this semantic disagreement/confusion, I think. I'll leave it there; I agree with much of what you said. And we can agree to disagree about whether or not people can be racist against whites.
Re: Making a murderer breaking news!
Like being in jail multiple times, not being part of societal norm.
@NiceyMeany stated it very well. And you can spin it any way you want, but it's still not racially based.
even if he did or did not kill this person, he's a piece of trash. Sorry if you relate to this person and his lifestyle so my opinion offends you.
There is a huge difference between being racist to your own people and judging people's actions.
You can, however, be classist. And the phrase "white trash" is definitely classist. It's not an appropriate term to use under any circumstances, but I would caution strongly against calling someone's use of the term "racist." The claim of racism against white people in America co-opts the word in a way that is belittling to the struggle of our racial minorities. The phrase "white trash" is distasteful, certainly, but all white people in America have the ability to code-switch out of the "trash" label, given enough resources. Racial minorities do not have that option.
@PerraSucia that was low of course i do not condone that mans behavior.
I know now that historically just being poor or substandard living conditions have been associated with "trash." But there are plenty of low income/poor people who are perfect citizens.
FTM, 2 Furbabies
married 03/17/07
lived in Houston, Austin, Los Angeles and NYC
due: 2/15/17
I didnt take perra's comment any kind of way, though. Maybe it's because she's white - you're kind of allowed to say things about your own race that outsiders aren't. Idk.
I kid, I kid.
Anyone of any race can be an asshole. But racism necessarily and by definition requires an imbalance of power in favor of the racist party.
ETA: I think you may be defining racism based on the effect it has - because racism against whites in America will never impact them they way it does minority races, obviously - but systemic oppression isn't a necessary result of racism. And perhaps I'm being too much of a semanticist in insisting on an accurate definition of the word, but I don't think it's fair or accurate for you to say there cannot be white racial slurs and white people cannot experience racism.
I think the term racism gets thrown around too loosely and bigotry is far more under appreciated.
I completely agree that the terms racist/racism are thrown around way too much -- I teach high schoolers. Though they tend to call anything raciAL "racist."
I'm not conflating definitions, and I'm not mistaking my terms. And I'm certainly not saying that a person can't be racist if he's not white - although I am firmly and without hesitation affirming that you cannot be racist against white people in America. I'm saying that the commonly-accepted definition of racism as a set of attitudes and behaviors is wrong and can be counterproductive and even damaging. It allows members of the racial majority to separate themselves from other people based on their attitudes and behaviors, which then shields them from having to do something about it.
I guess I wasn't done. But I am now. Feel free to respond if you want, but I think we've taken this conversation far enough off topic.
I appreciate you acknowledging that you're taking issue with the commonly held definition, not arguing about what the commonly held definition is - important distinction in this semantic disagreement/confusion, I think. I'll leave it there; I agree with much of what you said. And we can agree to disagree about whether or not people can be racist against whites.
Good debate!