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SO and I can't agree on circumcision

TheThornBirdTheThornBird member
in May 2016 Moms
I don't want to start the whole circ debate, but if anyone has been through this or has any insight, I'd really appreciate your thoughts. 

I'm very anti-circ, and SO is very pro-circ. We've had a few HUGE arguments over this that never end well.We haven't discussed it in a few weeks, but SO brought it up again last night because he now wants to switch from Team Green to finding out at the AS in a couple weeks. 

I've heard his arguments and he's heard mine a million times. Neither of us are willing to budge and we're both pretty pissed at each other. From my understanding, it can only be done at birth if both parents consent; however, I do worry that he would try to have it done behind my back later on. I'm also pissed that now our AS, which is supposed to be a wonderful thing that brings us closer together, is now going to just cause a lot of stress and anxiety. Our relationship is already pretty fragile, and I think having a boy would be the final nail in the coffin leading to us splitting up. 

We do see a premarital counselor, but he hasn't been much help- he's pro-circ because of his religion (SO and I aren't religious at all), and basically told me to pray it's a girl. 

Any thoughts?
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Re: SO and I can't agree on circumcision

  • Bltbear82Bltbear82 member
    I'm sorry @TheThornBird, that sounds really stressful. I didn't have a strong opinion either way and DH was/is anti so together we asked two medical professionals we had already researched and trusted - my OB and our at-the-time future pediatrician, who is DS's doctor now. Both said there is no proven medical reason for doing it, and the pediatrician even gave us percentages of what's "the cultural norm" where we live so we could make a factual decision. We opted not to and will do the same with DS 2. Honestly it sounds way more difficult caring for a circumcised penis, I can't imagine it now. However, older family members assumed we would since that's what they view as "normal" despite DH being European. Good luck!
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  • cortney626cortney626 member
    I just wanted to say sorry you're going through this and hopefully you can come to an agreement that you're both comfortable with.
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  • Jenly17Jenly17 member
    I'm going to echo @DanandVan. I have a DD, but if we have a boy and we were in your same situation, I would trust my husband's judgement. I am sure that both arguements are valid, but at the end of the day, he's got the male parts. If there was a reverse to this situation and some decision making about the vagina, let's say, I would hope my H would trust my judgment.

    I am sorry that you are going through this, and imagine this is a difficult time in your relationship. Wishing you peace going forward with your decision.
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  • concreteayngelconcreteayngel member
    I assume must women agree that since men don't share our same equipment, they shouldn't have a say in our reproductive rights, right? Most of us get pretty pissed off when a bunch of old white dudes in politics start telling us what to do with our bodies.

    I see circumcision as the same. That's the man's domain. While you are entitled to your opinion, I feel it should ultimately be the father's choice because he is the one who will teach your son about his body and how it works.

    As for your A/S, many couples have one partner find out at the A/S while the other remains surprised. Why not do that? No offense, but it sounds like you're trying to get your way about everything, and you have to pick your battles. It may be your pregnancy, but the child is half his, and he should have some say, too. Learn to meet in the middle, because once that baby is here, it will only get harder. Especially if you have different ideas on how to parent your child!
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  • Bltbear82Bltbear82 member
    I also wanted to say that this is just the beginning of many decisions you'll make together for your child. It's important to start that dynamic out right and set the tone, so the thing I would be most worried about is that there's a possibility he might do it "behind your back. " I would urge you to come to some agreement that that type of behavior is not ok, on either side, regardless of what the arguement is about.

    Parenting is a compromise and you might not always agree, but it's important to feel like you're a team. Addressing that dynamic would be at the top of my list and work on the different opinions later. I personally would be happier conceding than feeling like my partner could potentially do something major without my knowledge.
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  • SunshinebinsSunshinebins member
    I think you need a new counselor personally. This may be an aside, but anyone in the therapy world who tells you their opinion isn't being unbiased and praying it's a girl isn't going to fix your problems. Even if you have a girl, these differences are going to come up in life and parenting and you have to learn the skills to compromise on them and work them out as a couple. This guy doesn't sound like a good fit for you guys.

    And as far as circumcision go, I'm of the camp that I left it up to S/O. He is leaning towards it but wants to ask around a bit if we find out tomorrow we are having a boy. I think it becomes a pick your battles and at the moment you are picking every one, which will just cause frustration for everyone. Finding out at the A/S may be helpful as it gives you more time to decide as a couple want the best choice is.

    Good luck!
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  • JennyS86JennyS86 member
    I'm sorry that you guys have so much anger in this decision. It sounds like are trying to  do the right thing by getting counseling and realizing that this is a decision making/trust/parenting issue rather than just about the circumcision.

    At this hospital I worked at, the mother could sign the circ permit, and if unavailable, the father can sign the circ permit.  Not both.

    I tend to agree more with trying to agree together, but letting SO have a little more weight because he's the one with the penis.  Having worked in a hospital, I've seen botched circs.  That turned me towards anti-circ, but my SO feels very strongly that he wants his son to be circed.  We have 2 daughters so far, and if we have a son in May, he will be circed.  I will, however, make sure that one of my OBs (6 in the group) does that actual procedure, not a medical student or resident...I understand you need to learn, but not on my son.  I won't be watching the circ though, and neither will SO.  The healing from a circ is actually very quick and simple.most are healed in 5-7 days.  Another note: do NOT have your son circed if your family or SO's family have any bleeding conditions/hemophilia/clotting disorders.  Ask for your newborn to be tested for those conditions before getting a circumcision. 

    sorry for the multiple opinions/advice!  Good luck on your decision

    oh one more thing.  In nursing school, they said our area has 50% circ rate  In my experience, it is 90%, and some additional people choosing to do a Bris.  Still very common practice in my area.
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  • tgortneytgortney member
    We're having a boy and I was iffy at first about it because I've heard about the botched surgeries and potential infections etc.

    So really, I'm 50-50 and so is DH. He's leaving the decision for me to make which is really stressful... I haven't done much research on it but I probably should soon :neutral:

    DH is but doesn't care if our son is. Ultimately, if we did have a disagreement, I would want him to make that decision because he's the one with the same equipment. I'm usually very liberal and all about equality but when it comes to anatomy, I can't begin to understand male anatomy unless I possessed some.

    Really, if we did do it, I fully trust my hospital because they're one of the best in our areas.
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  • lilyandtheoandlululilyandtheoandlulu member
    None of the men in DH's family are circumcised so our son is not. I had not thought much about it until we got pregnant but I was fine with whatever DH wanted to do. I'm sorry this issue is causing so much dissension between you and your husband.
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  • mmemartinezmmemartinez member
    I was worried about it and didn't really want to do it. DH was adamant that DS should, simply because DH is also. If it helps, I think complications are rare and DS had no issues.
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  • finnybooboofinnybooboo member
    I'm sorry you're having a hard time with this. I agree with many of the PP's that if we have a boy, the decision for circ or no circ should be mostly the dad's decision. Your input should be taken, but to me, it comes down to him having the man parts and knowing much more about it then a woman does. If there was a similar decision to be made for female babies, I wouldn't want my husband dictating to me what we must do for her when I would have much more expertise in that matter.

    It sounds like you guys need to seek more/better counseling. Seems like you both are concentrating on this because you have some issues to work through don't want to come to agreement on anything. There are many decisions you'll have to make together for your child, so I urge you to find help sooner then later.
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  • nbgmomnbgmom member
    In agreement with what @laurenmdrn16 said via @dshannah

    I spent 6 and a half years as an ER nurse, and while it doesn't really make a difference in young men, our incapacitated elderly patients who were uncircumcised, had terrible excoriation of the skin under the foreskin, as well as, to use a lovely urban dictionary term, copious smegma. If I hadn't already been a supporter of circumcision before, that would've been enough for me. I do agree it is a personal decision, and I do not disagree with those who choose not to do it, but for us, it's definitely the answer.
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  • KidShrinkKidShrink member
    DH and I have to make the same decision as we just found out we're having a boy. DH is circed, but it's relatively uncommon where we're from, except from certain religious groups (which we're not part of). We just have more questions about it that we'll ask our OB and GP before we make a decision as we'd both be happy one way or the other.

    I agree with PPs that you need a new counsellor. As a psychologist myself, one of the things we learn is to leave our beliefs at the door of the office- we're there to help you make the best decision for you, not to make that decision for you. His response is very unprofessional and unhelpful. Also, if your relationship is already rocky before baby's arrival, it's important to get help from a qualified/non-judgemental professional who's not there to take one side or the other, but to help you communicate with each other. You won't always win, neither will he, and you need to start making decisions together about a little one, decisions which can have a huge impact on their life.

    Good luck in your decision-making!
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  • camillaandcarsoncamillaandcarson member
    I left information all over the house just laying around out in the open, especially on the toilet.  Here is one site I liked.

    https://9davids.blogspot.com/2010/11/50-reasons-to-leave-it-alone.html


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  • camillaandcarsoncamillaandcarson member
    edited December 2015
    Also we don't know if our baby will be a boy or girl but our insurance doesn't cover it as it isn't medically necessary and is considered elective.  Therefore the office wants hundreds of dollars extra to cut some of our baby's penis upon birth if baby is a boy.  The paperwork for it is included in a packet and it is to be paid up front and before delivery.

    Perhaps he won't want to shell out hundreds of dollars for it?

    Also I am very sorry that you are feeling like if you don't "give in" you will seal the deal into the end of your relationship with the father of your child over just this one thing.  I honestly see that as a huge red flag, as in, if you give in now to something you believe in, this won't be the last time big decisions come (and small) and won't make things happy and bright for all the future just because you are willing to compromise your beliefs and values for this one thing right now.  I am so sorry, that sounds really really hard.    I totally agree with getting a new counselor as soon as you can.  Before the A/S would be good. 
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  • camillaandcarsoncamillaandcarson member

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  • DarkCatDarkCat member
    camillaandcarson said:

    Here are some of the reasons that stood out to me from the above post:

    1.) It's his. 



    2.) I've never met a man who wanted "less" penis when he was old enough
    to care.  Men tend to like their penises just the way they are.


    5.) Circumcision isn't the majority for newborns anymore.  According to the New York Times,
    the infant circumcision rate is down to 32%.  That means 68% of your
    son's locker room will likely have natural penises.  If you circumcise,
    he will probably ask you why he's different from his buddies.


    7.) You wouldn't cut your baby girl's genitals.  In fact, it's illegal - even a "nick" is illegal.  Male circumcision is a lot more involved than a nick!

    9.) It hurts.  A lot.  Really.  Don't believe me?  Watch a video.  With the sound up, please.  If you can't watch the whole thing, can you really ask your newborn to go through it?

    11.) Did you know?  Infant circumcision rates
    are less than 10% in the following counties: England, France, Portugal,
    Italy, Ireland, Canada, Mexico, all of South and Central America,
    Japan, China, Russia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, Switzerland,
    Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Greece, Taiwan, Vietnam, India, Sri
    Lanka, New Zealand, Australia and more.



    Infant circumcision rates are higher than 10% in the following
    countries: USA, Israel, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrain,
    Kuwait, Syria, Lebanon,  Yemen, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, Philippines,
    Indonesia, Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad, Republic of Congo, Eritrea, and
    Kenya. 

    14.) There are over 20,000 nerve endings in the foreskin.  That's more than in the female clitoris.



    15.) The foreskin protects the head of the penis.



    16.) The foreskin provides lubrication during sexual intercourse.  Men with natural penises are less likely to use lubrication during sex or masturbation.



    17.) No major medical organization on earth recommends routine circumcision of infants.

    20.) We don't chop off ears to prevent ear infections.  We don't remove
    baby toenails to prevent fungal infections.  We don't cut off body parts
    anymore when a wound becomes infected.  In the very unlikely event your son does develop an infection, we have antibiotics. 

    25.) Complications of circumcision are NOT rare. Check out this thread on Babycenter.com (a mommy board, not a circumcision website) to read their stories.


    28.) Circumcision makes money for doctors.  A doctor who performs circumcisions makes an extra $20,000-160,000 per year
    on the operations.  That's why they offer circumcision at hospitals -
    for cash.  They'll ask you if you want your son circumcised multiple
    times at the hospital: they want the money.



    29.) Less than 1%
    of men with foreskins will ever "need" to be circumcised, just as the
    vast majority of women will never need a hysterectomy or mastectomy.  We
    don't remove tonsils or fingernails or anything else at birth "in case"
    it has a problem.

    30.) Penile cancer causes 300 deaths a year, almost exclusively in men over the age of 70.  Infant circumcision causes over 500 deaths a year worldwide.  Circumcision does not prevent penile cancer.

    32.) Fathers don't spend time comparing penises with their sons.  If
    your son does notice that his penis is different from Dad's (other than
    size and hair), you can simply explain
    that Daddy had an operation when he was a baby.  My dad lost half of
    his ring finger in an accident, but I was never bothered by having all
    of my fingers.



    33.) Your grandfather (or great-grandfather) probably wasn't
    circumcised, unless you are of Jewish or Muslim descent.  It's a
    relatively new thing in the USA.  Abe Lincoln and George Washington had foreskins.

    34.) Most circumcised penises have scars.  If you've ever seen a
    circumcised penis, you have probably seen circumcision scars and didn't
    know what they were.  Curious?  Click here for pictures (adult eyes please, extremely graphic).

    37.) Babies have had the glans (head) of their penis accidentally amputated during circumcision.



    38.) Female circumcision was legal in the United States until 1985.

    39.) Your health insurance may not cover the procedure.  Medicaid does not cover it in 16 states, and many major insurance companies also do not reimburse for the surgery, since it is cosmetic.  If your insurance doesn't cover it, it probably also does not cover any complications.



    40.) Babies are strapped down on a circumstraint to
    have the procedure done.  That is the most unnatural, terrifying
    position for a baby, who previously was all curled up and safe inside
    Mama's body.

    46.) Circumcision makes penises smaller.  Who wants a smaller penis?



    47.) "My partner should make the decision, he has a penis/she looks at
    penises" is a dumb reason to abdicate responsibility for a decision. 
    You are your baby's parent, penis or not, and you have a responsibility
    to protect your child from harm.  Victims of FGM (aka female
    circumcision) are the most vocal supporters and perpetrators of the abuse.  Call on your inner Mama or Papa-bear and stand up for your baby's rights.  Make your partner watch a video with the sound on and convince YOU why they want this done to their precious child.

    *slow clap*
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  • TheThornBirdTheThornBird member
    Thank you everyone for your replies, and for being so understanding. I had a nice chat last night with a close friend of mine who works in counseling and got some great advice & ways to deal with this without having a giant blow-up (pregnancy hormones FTW!). 

    For those of you saying we may need a new counselor- I'm not too crazy about our current one, but he's very alpha-male/macho-y, which is the only type of counselor my SO will listen to. Yea, I know...... but my SO has actually made a lot of progress working with him. We'll probably talk about this issue more in depth in the near future, so fingers crossed :)

    @yogahh- I know you're not being snarky (and even if you were, it wouldn't bother me too much!) According to our Dr and all the research I've read, it's not medically necessary and purely cosmetic. I don't believe I have the right to make that decision about someone else, and there is no way in hell I'm going to risk putting my baby through any unnecessary pain or discomfort. And yes, I can be very, VERY stubborn :)
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  • yogahhyogahh member
    TheThornBird said:
    Thank you everyone for your replies, and for being so understanding. I had a nice chat last night with a close friend of mine who works in counseling and got some great advice & ways to deal with this without having a giant blow-up (pregnancy hormones FTW!). 

    For those of you saying we may need a new counselor- I'm not too crazy about our current one, but he's very alpha-male/macho-y, which is the only type of counselor my SO will listen to. Yea, I know...... but my SO has actually made a lot of progress working with him. We'll probably talk about this issue more in depth in the near future, so fingers crossed :)

    @yogahh- I know you're not being snarky (and even if you were, it wouldn't bother me too much!) According to our Dr and all the research I've read, it's not medically necessary and purely cosmetic. I don't believe I have the right to make that decision about someone else, and there is no way in hell I'm going to risk putting my baby through any unnecessary pain or discomfort. And yes, I can be very, VERY stubborn :)
    I understand...I too was worried about the pain of it. Until I realized that it hurts them less, and is less traumatic, when done as a baby. As an adult, if he decides to do it, it will be worse both physically and mentally. I am pro circ, and not trying to influence your decision at all! I just hope that your husband and you can figure out a good solve that doesn't hurt your relationship. Thankfully, you have a few more months to work it all out ;)

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  • josie12367josie12367 member
    We have differing opinions as well....I'm still very much on the fence seeing as I used to assist in circumcision procedures as a medic in the military. My DH has agreed the better choice is to not have one but then still wants one for our LO....it makes no sense, but we'll work it out eventually. I'm hoping we will leave our son (if it's a boy) intact.

    I have no helpful advice but just sharing that you are definitely not alone in this!
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  • TheThornBirdTheThornBird member
    BuzzBee614 said:
    @camillaandcarson 47.) "My partner should make the decision, he has a penis/she looks at penises" is a dumb reason to abdicate responsibility for a decision. You are your baby's parent, penis or not, and you have a responsibility to protect your child from harm This is a little intense/insulting to members of the board. You're basically saying that anyone who has chosen to circumcise did not protect their baby from harm. This is something all males in mine and my husbands side of the family have done and we feel strongly about having our son circumcised. I don't think that makes me a shitty parent. Also, many posters have said they have turned to their husbands for advice/ the final decision. If I ask my husband how he feels about it and if he strongly feels one way or another it's because he, too, is the child's parent and also has the equipment that we are discussing. I do not know what it is like to have a penis, it makes sense to ask advice from the other parent that does happen to have one.
    So since I started this thread I'm going to jump in and reiterate- PLEASE don't make this a debate about circumcision. Yep, we all have very strong opinions on the issue, but I promise you- very rarely does anyone's mind get changed from a post on the internet.

    And yep, I get that I have no control over what gets posted here and that I'll probably get flamed, but arguing pro/anti isn't helping me. Nobody's opinion on circ- including my own- is going to change based on this thread. I just wanted to hear from people who have been in similar situations, and what they found helpful. @camillaandcarson was telling me what worked for her, which I appreciate. 
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  • kami09kami09 member
    edited December 2015
    Take your own advice. You're the only one who took it there.

    ETA: Oops I apologize. It wasn't you who posted the long list of reasons not to circumsize...but her advice is the only one you deem worthy- so I'll leave my comment.
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  • LemmyRNLemmyRN member
    @BuzzBee614
    I clicked the link and the list was an opinion piece from someone's blog. They did not have scholarly articles or resources, just links to other anti-circ organizations and info. I saw one refer to a "study" that was of only 22 penises... and presenting that "evidence".

    I don't think she was intentionally calling others bad parents, it was a straight copy and paste from that opinion piece.
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  • BuzzBee614BuzzBee614 member
    @LemmyRN I knew she took it from there, but reposting as something that stood out to her and agrees with still just rubbed me the wrong way. Thank you though, because sometimes I am scrolling quickly and can totally miss stuff like that. :)

    @TheThornBird  I think past posters offered great advice and their experiences and I appreciate you not wanting to start the debate. However, when conversations on controversial topics take a turn you cannot control them. I took offense to something posted. I am on neither side of the debate as I really don't care one way or another what others decide to do and support all decisions on this topic.  I felt my decision, though, was being called "dumb" 

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  • TheThornBirdTheThornBird member
    Cool, glad to hear no one is actually bringing it to a point of debate. 
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  • jumpy57jumpy57 member
    I happen to be in the camp of letting my husband make the final decision. However, I typically trust his judgement 90% of the time in other life situations and we usually agree a lot so I am very comfortable in general with him making important decisions.

    Since you disagree my advice would be to make a list of pros/cons or different topics and calmly talk through it with your husband. You may have information he is unaware of and he may have insight you never thought of. Yelling facts or feelings won't get anyone anywhere, you need a calm discussion that doesn't need to generate a solution right away. Let your conversation sink in before you talk again about a decision.

    Plan your discussion so both of you have time to look up reliable information.

    That's just the nerdy way I would handle the situation though, everyone is different. I hope you two can come to a decision :)
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  • Pascal86Pascal86 member
    @TheThornBird - Devil's advocate to your last comment - I actually don't have strong opinions on this issue, but since it's one I may have to face soon, it's actually really helpful for me to see both sides so I can weigh the pros/cons. In all honesty, I probably will defer to my husband on this one, since he at least knows what it's like to have a penis, but a lot of stuff has come up that I hadn't considered, even though it's not specifically helpful to your issue of resolving the debate with your husband.
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  • jumpy57jumpy57 member
    Also I know that you didn't make this thread to have your mind changed, but be open to the idea that your husband might be able to change your mind just as you are hoping he will be open to the possibly that you might change his mind
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  • michellabananamichellabanana member
    Pascal86 said:

    @TheThornBird - Devil's advocate to your last comment - I actually don't have strong opinions on this issue, but since it's one I may have to face soon, it's actually really helpful for me to see both sides so I can weigh the pros/cons. In all honesty, I probably will defer to my husband on this one, since he at least knows what it's like to have a penis, but a lot of stuff has come up that I hadn't considered, even though it's not specifically helpful to your issue of resolving the debate with your husband.

    Me too! I never really thought about it, knowing that most of the men I know are circumsized. But some of the problems and pictures have me rethinking it. It's really something to take time to figure out.
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