I would never force them to vaccinate if that's their choice. We aren't going to lose a relationship over postponing a visit. We have a better relationship than that. It's just something that he feels strongly about and it's always difficult to talk about those topics.
They live in Northern California with some of the highest rates of whooping cough. Do they currently have it? No. Can I predict that for Dec 28? No. Is that a chance I'm willing to take? Nope.
I am more anti vax, but here is my my two cents. A vaccine doesn't prevent them from carrying the disease in all cases, it just reduces the possibility. The failure rate for the whooping cough vaccine is 30% according to the CDC website, so even if you have every one who comes in contact with your child vaccinated, 1/3 can still get your child sick.
He can also only pass the illness along if he is a current carrier. You can't give someone something you don't have. If his daughter doesn't have pertussis, then chances are he isn't a carrier.
Being around unvaccinated people doesn't increase your risk for getting sick, if they aren't sick. I am fully vaccinated (half didn't work on me according to screenings done though) and spend most of my time around people who are unvaccinated. I have yet to contract anything that I am not immune too because they haven't contracted it.
I understand the worry is to protect your baby. Even though I have been against vaccines since high school, I still considered them for a moment because of the what if. But you have to remember that a vaccine isn't 100%, and no one can spread an illness they don't have. I can't spread measles not because of a vaccine, but because I haven't had exposure and don't have it.
You can however make sure they do not come anywhere near your house if they show any signs of illness. You can also use proper hygiene and limit touching to you child. That should help dramatically. I personally don't think it's right to ask someone to compromise their personal beliefs for you, and vaccines fall in line with that. There are many reasons people choose not to vaccinate and 90% of them have nothing to do with the whole autism thing. You might lose relationships of you can't respect someone else's informed choices for their family. If you are fine with losing that relationship then yes deny him the chance to visit, if not try to listen to what he says.
Doesn't the respect go both ways? The brother should respect her wishes of not having unvaccinated people around her newborn. Those are her personal beliefs. Why should she compromise her beliefs for his?
A lot of illnesses are contagious before people show symptoms, especially in kids. We are asking that everyone be vaccinated with both a flu shot and a tdap. They won't give my dad another TDAP so he is going to Walgreens and asking for just the pertussis and paying out of pocket. He knows how important this is to keep our baby protected. Especially since our state has over 150 confirmed pertussis cases already this year and we heard southwest colorado is having an outbreak as well.
Didn't know about the CO outbreak. My family is coming from there to help with before and after this little guy gets here. Going to triple check their vaccine status now.
@nikkip712 You're absolutely right. Vaccines do not prevent you from getting the disease and are not always 100% effective for all those vaccinated. That's where herd immunity comes into play. I don't challenge or question your choice to lean towards anti-vax - not only do I assume someone has done their research before making that sort of decision, I also know I certainly am not going to change anyone's mind about the issue just because I feel differently about it - I just question the logic of "I'm not vaccinated and my friends aren't vaccinated and we aren't sick, so why vaccinate?" Similar to "I don't wear a helmet when I ride a motorcycle and neither do my friends and none of us have ever crashed, so why wear helmets at all?"
@Bombmom3 it was on the news a while back, they have one of the higher rates of whooping cough around the country I believe, I looked it up a few weeks ago don't recall the exact numbers now. They have a very large antivax population in the area of southwest Colorado where my brother lives
@Bombmom3 it was on the news a while back, they have one of the higher rates of whooping cough around the country I believe, I looked it up a few weeks ago don't recall the exact numbers now. They have a very large antivax population in the area of southwest Colorado where my brother lives
Weird how we have outbreaks of these things in large antivax areas across the country ...
@Bombmom3 it was on the news a while back, they have one of the higher rates of whooping cough around the country I believe, I looked it up a few weeks ago don't recall the exact numbers now. They have a very large antivax population in the area of southwest Colorado where my brother lives
Weird how we have outbreaks of these things in large antivax areas across the country ...
You'd think that people would catch on to the benefits of science huh?
That's the thing that really gets me about whooping cough in particular. Have you guys seen the rates of whooping cough since 2010ish compared to the last 35 years? There were maybe 2000-4000 cases a year and now we're in the 20,000+ range. And it ain't because of a new strain or anything.
Must be all those healthy people who don't need vaccines ...
Sorry, I really don't mean to be snide about it. I do respect people's right to choose. I just feel that choosing to decline protection against a preventable disease smacks of the upmost privileged BS. As a nation we have been blessed with having access to these vaccines and therefore almost eliminating most of these diseases - we don't know what the face of a true pertussis outbreak looks like. We haven't lived in fear of our children dying of Scarlett fever or seen a room full of pediatric sized iron lungs for polio victims in several generations. So now we are cocky and feel like we don't need the vaccines - because it's trendy or it's bad science or misinformation or (worse) they hear anecdotal evidence about the negative side affects of a vaccine and feel that because a small percentage of people have adverse reactions then vaccines must be terrible for everyone - all because we don't see these things any more. Ask a mother in India why she will WALK fifteen miles each way carrying her 20lb toddler to get a polio booster. Tell a mother in rural China that there is this drug out there that can keep your baby from coughing until its eyes bleed but Americans who have easy access to it refuse to get it because healthy people don't need vaccines. (BTW bleeding from the eyes is an actual thing that can happen with pertussis - they cough so hard it ruptures all of the blood vessels in the eye). It just kills me when I think about it - more so because I've lived in plenty of third world countries and I've seen what these diseases can do.
Must be all those healthy people who don't need vaccines ...
Sorry, I really don't mean to be snide about it. I do respect people's right to choose. I just feel that choosing to decline protection against a preventable disease smacks of the upmost privileged BS. As a nation we have been blessed with having access to these vaccines and therefore almost eliminating most of these diseases - we don't know what the face of a true pertussis outbreak looks like. We haven't lived in fear of our children dying of Scarlett fever or seen a room full of pediatric sized iron lungs for polio victims in several generations. So now we are cocky and feel like we don't need the vaccines - because it's trendy or it's bad science or misinformation or (worse) they hear anecdotal evidence about the negative side affects of a vaccine and feel that because a small percentage of people have adverse reactions then vaccines must be terrible for everyone - all because we don't see these things any more. Ask a mother in India why she will WALK fifteen miles each way carrying her 20lb toddler to get a polio booster. Tell a mother in rural China that there is this drug out there that can keep your baby from coughing until its eyes bleed but Americans who have easy access to it refuse to get it because healthy people don't need vaccines. (BTW bleeding from the eyes is an actual thing that can happen with pertussis - they cough so hard it ruptures all of the blood vessels in the eye). It just kills me when I think about it - more so because I've lived in plenty of third world countries and I've seen what these diseases can do.
Yes, yes, yes. My great-aunt contracted polio and was completely paralyzed except for her head and one thumb that she used to control her motorized wheelchair, the only way that I remember her. My mom's brother has one leg smaller than the other and walks with a limp because he got polio as a kid and his leg stopped growing for a time and never caught up to the other one. You think they would refuse vaccines for their kids or grandkids?
I wouldn't knowingly bring my new baby around unvaccinated people. And I most certainly wouldn't let them hold him or her. Especially if your niece is school age.
I mentioned this awhile back in another thread, but for those may may not know I'll say it again. Outbreaks of the anti-vaccination areas often do not include the Amish communities in their numbers. Most Amish choose to not vaccinate their children, therefore with their poor hygiene habits pertussis spreads like wildfire among them. My mother and her midwife friend delivered a lot of the Amish babies in the villages in our area, but stopped because those same babies were contracting the illness and were near death or had died and the parents would not take them to the hospital. Given, my mother and her friend are not licensed physicians and could not "diagnose", but pertussis is hard to mistake for something else. These same people come into our communities to grocery shop, often with their sick kids or carrying it themselves, leaving a trail of germs for everyone. Even if the vaccine is only 70% effective, imagine how many of those children wouldn't have to suffer and die if they received it? I won't ever take a chance of not vaccinating my child due to a 30% fail rate, because I would rather he receive a vaccine with a 70% success rate. Without the vaccine he is 100% vulnerable, not 30. If a parent chooses not to vaccinate their children, mine will not be around them until he has had his rounds. Respect goes both ways, so I wouldn't expect them to impose on my beliefs either.
I am more anti vax, but here is my my two cents. A vaccine doesn't prevent them from carrying the disease in all cases, it just reduces the possibility. The failure rate for the whooping cough vaccine is 30% according to the CDC website, so even if you have every one who comes in contact with your child vaccinated, 1/3 can still get your child sick.
He can also only pass the illness along if he is a current carrier. You can't give someone something you don't have. If his daughter doesn't have pertussis, then chances are he isn't a carrier.
Being around unvaccinated people doesn't increase your risk for getting sick, if they aren't sick. I am fully vaccinated (half didn't work on me according to screenings done though) and spend most of my time around people who are unvaccinated. I have yet to contract anything that I am not immune too because they haven't contracted it.
I understand the worry is to protect your baby. Even though I have been against vaccines since high school, I still considered them for a moment because of the what if. But you have to remember that a vaccine isn't 100%, and no one can spread an illness they don't have. I can't spread measles not because of a vaccine, but because I haven't had exposure and don't have it.
You can however make sure they do not come anywhere near your house if they show any signs of illness. You can also use proper hygiene and limit touching to you child. That should help dramatically. I personally don't think it's right to ask someone to compromise their personal beliefs for you, and vaccines fall in line with that. There are many reasons people choose not to vaccinate and 90% of them have nothing to do with the whole autism thing. You might lose relationships of you can't respect someone else's informed choices for their family. If you are fine with losing that relationship then yes deny him the chance to visit, if not try to listen to what he says.
Doesn't the respect go both ways? The brother should respect her wishes of not having unvaccinated people around her newborn. Those are her personal beliefs. Why should she compromise her beliefs for his?
@nikkip712, this is a great question from @redfallon. OP deserves respect for her scientific beliefs as well. Do you disagree with that?
Anyways. My uncle died from measles as a young boy because my gma and gpa were in the process of moving and forgot to vaccinate him. I don't see why I should have to "respect" someone else's choices if it could mean death for my child. I will respect your choice from afar, as long as your choice does not negatively affect my child.
Vaccines are absolutely different than riding a bike without a helmet. Having lost family members to both vaccines and not wearing helmets I can tell you your comment was crash and nasty. it is common knowledge that helmets save lives. I am all about safety and prevention, but there is a huge difference when the company manufacturing something for your protection will not be held accountable if there is an issue with the item.
A helmet goes through rigorous safety tests, has competition and the manufacturer can be sued if something goes wrong. A vaccine on the other hand is mandated, is classified as unsafe by the government which means you can't sue the maker for anything. You have to go through a huge song and dance to receive any compensation, and it is sold as being 100% safe. I'm sorry that's a huge difference to me.
I do not inherently have an issue with the vaccines, I do think they offer protection, but to ask someone that you love to risk themselves and their child to something that has only been properly tested by people who support the vaccines and throw out all other info, no.
And there was a post above that should she compromise her beliefs, no but it's a whole lot easier to get a vaccine or postpone a gathering then to take one back.
And if you all believe so much in herd immunity the maximum of 5% who don't vaccinate have little effect on it. Vaccination rates in most of the country are at the highest rate ever, with the exception being Southern California. The rates were lower when we were children yet the outbreaks were similar to what we have now.
I just wanted to point out (not sure if someone else mentioned this) that if you have received the flu and tdap vaccines while pregnant, like most have since its recommended, than wouldn't your baby have some antibodies to protect him/her if your nieces or nephews haven't had these vaccines and end up exposed? That's what doctors are telling us anyways so I would think that would warrant a little peace of mind. Especially if your breastfeeding too.
Just a thought because I see everyone saying babies are completely unprotected but then why are we all getting these vaccines while pregnant when we're told it's passed on to baby?
Vaccines are absolutely different than riding a bike without a helmet. Having lost family members to both vaccines and not wearing helmets I can tell you your comment was crash and nasty. it is common knowledge that helmets save lives. I am all about safety and prevention, but there is a huge difference when the company manufacturing something for your protection will not be held accountable if there is an issue with the item.
A helmet goes through rigorous safety tests, has competition and the manufacturer can be sued if something goes wrong. A vaccine on the other hand is mandated, is classified as unsafe by the government which means you can't sue the maker for anything. You have to go through a huge song and dance to receive any compensation, and it is sold as being 100% safe. I'm sorry that's a huge difference to me.
I do not inherently have an issue with the vaccines, I do think they offer protection, but to ask someone that you love to risk themselves and their child to something that has only been properly tested by people who support the vaccines and throw out all other info, no.
And there was a post above that should she compromise her beliefs, no but it's a whole lot easier to get a vaccine or postpone a gathering then to take one back.
And if you all believe so much in herd immunity the maximum of 5% who don't vaccinate have little effect on it. Vaccination rates in most of the country are at the highest rate ever, with the exception being Southern California. The rates were lower when we were children yet the outbreaks were similar to what we have now.
It's also common knowledge that vaccines have and do save lives. You might personally justify that for you or your family the risk vs the benefit isn't enough to vaccinate, but it's outright false to say that vaccines don't save lives or prevent disease. The eradication of smallpox through vaccination was one of the biggest medical accomplishments in human history. Similarly, as to your comments about Pertussis/Whooping cough, rates of disease DID fall dramatically when the first vaccine was implemented in the 1940's. It has since increased since the mid 2000's. https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/images/incidence-graph.jpg You can make alternate arguments as to why that is, and that's fine, but it does correlate with the anti-vax movement, as as pp's have pointed out, tends to occur in pockets where there is a low vaccination rate which scientifically makes sense.
Also in terms of testing, the time period from the first testing of a vaccine in a petri dish through testing in lab animals for safety and efficacy, through 3 different stages of clinical trials in humans, typically takes over a decade. That's a lot of testing--probably much more than helmets go through. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/resdev/test-approve.htmWhile the final clinical trials are generally run by the pharmaceutical company who will produce the vaccine (which you'd want so you're testing the final product and production quality too), the initial studies are often started by scientists at nonprofit organizations like universities who aren't going to make money off of their discoveries. I'm not sure what you mean by "classified as unsafe by the government" but the government (the FDA) has to literally say it IS safe and effective at every stage of development past animal models for it to proceed to the next step. Most potential vaccines, like most drugs in fact do NOT pass the standards for safety and efficacy and are not sold--the standards are pretty hard to reach. Even then, it's never considered 100% safe for everyone. The vaccine safety sheets that Dr's hand out when they give or discuss vaccination do mention that there are rare side effects, and maybe you're in the rare group that is particularly susceptible to those.
Being someone that has worked in the medical and research industry, a lot of what people think or say, particularly about vaccines, just isn't true. I respect that you have a different viewpoint, and that I'm not going to change your mind on anything, but I wanted to offer a counterpoint to anyone who isn't sure where they stand.
I would like to acknowledge @nikkip712 , that I don't have experience with trying to receive compensation for adverse events and that serious events, while rarer than most people believe, do happen. So I don't mean to minimize that part of your post by any means. My point was just that they are rigorously tested, unlike what some people think, and that for the vast, vast majority the benefits are well worth it.
As to OP, I agree with the general consensus that delaying the visit until your child can get more protection via the vaccine might be a good way to respect your brother's choices while maintaining safety for your baby.
@nikkip712 It wasn't meant to be crass or nasty at all. I am sorry you felt that way. That is, however, the way *I* feel about the issue. Yes, vaccines can cause someone to have an adverse reaction - up to and including death. That is a sad but harsh fact about ANY medication. And if it is the reason (or factors into) your choosing not to vaccinate then I think that is, of course, well within your rights.
I would like to point out that while you don't feel a vaccine is a "life saving" tool and a helmet is, therefore I'm being bitchy when I compare the two, that I do respect your feelings on the matter. But I require the same respect and understanding back when I say to you that I feel BOTH items are life saving devices.
And I would like to bring polio up again. When is the last time you saw a kid in a wheel chair or a brace with a withered leg because they contracted that disease. Never? Probably because the vaccine eradicated it in the United States (and all over areas of the globe save for two - yes only TWO - countries in the world). Because anyone who has watched their child suffer (or their brother or sister or gone through it themselves) wouldn't hesitate to get that vaccine. And they weighed the cost to benefit ratio.
You have weighed yours and found the cost too high. I have weighed mine and found the cost to be negligible. We are on different sides of the issue and don't agree with one another at all about it but I can say that I know you are doing what you feel is best for your family and that, in my mind, makes you a good mother. Maybe you could extend us the same courtesy and realize that we are passionate about this issue because we truly believe these vaccines protect our children and that the risk of exposure to someone who may not be protected causes us to fear for our child's health and safety. And that's what makes *us* good mothers, too.
I just wanted to point out (not sure if someone else mentioned this) that if you have received the flu and tdap vaccines while pregnant, like most have since its recommended, than wouldn't your baby have some antibodies to protect him/her if your nieces or nephews haven't had these vaccines and end up exposed? That's what doctors are telling us anyways so I would think that would warrant a little peace of mind. Especially if your breastfeeding too.
Just a thought because I see everyone saying babies are completely unprotected but then why are we all getting these vaccines while pregnant when we're told it's passed on to baby?
That is a good point. Just as an educational thing, the antibodies we pass on to the baby are a form of passive immunity, which is shorter lived and might not be as effective as their own active immunity will be for them once they have a more developed immune system and get the vaccine directly. So the vaccines while we're pregnant are great for them, but they aren't the same as getting the shot themselves. This has a better explanation: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/immunity-types.htm
I just wanted to point out (not sure if someone else mentioned this) that if you have received the flu and tdap vaccines while pregnant, like most have since its recommended, than wouldn't your baby have some antibodies to protect him/her if your nieces or nephews haven't had these vaccines and end up exposed? That's what doctors are telling us anyways so I would think that would warrant a little peace of mind. Especially if your breastfeeding too.
Just a thought because I see everyone saying babies are completely unprotected but then why are we all getting these vaccines while pregnant when we're told it's passed on to baby?
They will have some (emphasis) antibodies, but are not entirely protected. It's why it's important that everyone who will be in close contact with the baby gets their flu and pertussis shots. Herd immunity -- meaning that the baby won't be in contact with the illness until they are able to get a vaccination and stronger immunity of their own.
As for respecting someone's decision to not vaccinate: I respect that you have the right to that decision, I respect that you decided that was your better option. But you can play God with your own life and that of your own children. Not mine. Vaccine or no visit.
Honestly, I'm all for respecting other people's positions and decisions, but that doesn't mean they get to be around my family and I if I can prevent it. The flu sucks and can be deadly, pertussis can kill a baby, I've personally never had the chickenpox or measles, so it you have that I won't be seeing you for a few months. I understand the legit concerns about the vaccines, but some of these illnesses are entirely too lethal for babies, pregnant women, psssh even any old adult. I'm not willing to risk it. But I respect those who feel that it would be a risk to get the vaccine. I say do whatever you and your partner feel is right for your family. Live and let live. But don't watch that episode of Law and Order SVU with Hilary Duff, as it pertains to this subject matter and may put you in your feelings.
Sorry but I will not have any unvaccinated children around my newborn either without her round of vaccinations. Parents that choose not to vaccinate their kids needs to respect my wishes as I am not FORCING them to get vaccinated but just using it as a precaution. If they get butthurt by this then that's their own problem.
Re: Anti-vaccine family members....
They live in Northern California with some of the highest rates of whooping cough. Do they currently have it? No. Can I predict that for Dec 28? No. Is that a chance I'm willing to take? Nope.
Doesn't the respect go both ways? The brother should respect her wishes of not having unvaccinated people around her newborn. Those are her personal beliefs. Why should she compromise her beliefs for his?
Jamie
@nikkip712
You're absolutely right. Vaccines do not prevent you from getting the disease and are not always 100% effective for all those vaccinated. That's where herd immunity comes into play. I don't challenge or question your choice to lean towards anti-vax - not only do I assume someone has done their research before making that sort of decision, I also know I certainly am not going to change anyone's mind about the issue just because I feel differently about it - I just question the logic of "I'm not vaccinated and my friends aren't vaccinated and we aren't sick, so why vaccinate?" Similar to "I don't wear a helmet when I ride a motorcycle and neither do my friends and none of us have ever crashed, so why wear helmets at all?"
Jamie
Doesn't the respect go both ways? The brother should respect her wishes of not having unvaccinated people around her newborn. Those are her personal beliefs. Why should she compromise her beliefs for his?
@nikkip712, this is a great question from @redfallon. OP deserves respect for her scientific beliefs as well. Do you disagree with that?
Anyways. My uncle died from measles as a young boy because my gma and gpa were in the process of moving and forgot to vaccinate him. I don't see why I should have to "respect" someone else's choices if it could mean death for my child. I will respect your choice from afar, as long as your choice does not negatively affect my child.
A helmet goes through rigorous safety tests, has competition and the manufacturer can be sued if something goes wrong. A vaccine on the other hand is mandated, is classified as unsafe by the government which means you can't sue the maker for anything. You have to go through a huge song and dance to receive any compensation, and it is sold as being 100% safe. I'm sorry that's a huge difference to me.
I do not inherently have an issue with the vaccines, I do think they offer protection, but to ask someone that you love to risk themselves and their child to something that has only been properly tested by people who support the vaccines and throw out all other info, no.
And there was a post above that should she compromise her beliefs, no but it's a whole lot easier to get a vaccine or postpone a gathering then to take one back.
And if you all believe so much in herd immunity the maximum of 5% who don't vaccinate have little effect on it. Vaccination rates in most of the country are at the highest rate ever, with the exception being Southern California. The rates were lower when we were children yet the outbreaks were similar to what we have now.
Just a thought because I see everyone saying babies are completely unprotected but then why are we all getting these vaccines while pregnant when we're told it's passed on to baby?
It wasn't meant to be crass or nasty at all. I am sorry you felt that way. That is, however, the way *I* feel about the issue. Yes, vaccines can cause someone to have an adverse reaction - up to and including death. That is a sad but harsh fact about ANY medication. And if it is the reason (or factors into) your choosing not to vaccinate then I think that is, of course, well within your rights.
I would like to point out that while you don't feel a vaccine is a "life saving" tool and a helmet is, therefore I'm being bitchy when I compare the two, that I do respect your feelings on the matter. But I require the same respect and understanding back when I say to you that I feel BOTH items are life saving devices.
And I would like to bring polio up again. When is the last time you saw a kid in a wheel chair or a brace with a withered leg because they contracted that disease. Never? Probably because the vaccine eradicated it in the United States (and all over areas of the globe save for two - yes only TWO - countries in the world). Because anyone who has watched their child suffer (or their brother or sister or gone through it themselves) wouldn't hesitate to get that vaccine. And they weighed the cost to benefit ratio.
You have weighed yours and found the cost too high. I have weighed mine and found the cost to be negligible. We are on different sides of the issue and don't agree with one another at all about it but I can say that I know you are doing what you feel is best for your family and that, in my mind, makes you a good mother. Maybe you could extend us the same courtesy and realize that we are passionate about this issue because we truly believe these vaccines protect our children and that the risk of exposure to someone who may not be protected causes us to fear for our child's health and safety. And that's what makes *us* good mothers, too.