Anyone feeling movement yet?

amylmoore2010 · September 2015

Hey I'm a new member here. I am pretty shocked at some of the replies to the original post. From what I read the question asked was whether anyone else was feeling movement and not whether it was medically possible to do so. Im sure the aim of this app including the discussion board is for support from fellow mothers or expectant mothers. I am medically trained, if the question posed was whether it is medically possible to feel baby moving or not at this stage in pregnancy I would share my medical theory including references, however it is not.
I have not felt movement in my own pregnancy as of yet apart from the shifting and stretching of some organs lol. I cannot wait to feel "flutters" that some of the women here are mentioning.

sarahufl · September 2015

I feel it when I ovulate. Especially since my left tube was removed- it actually became quite painful.

But that doesn't mean you can feel a baby move when it is 10 weeks gestation.

kcbarbo78 · September 2015

This thread is asinine and demonstrates why science literacy is important.

shasha2384 · September 2015

Yes u thought I was going crazy when I felt it but guess it's normal this is baby #3 for me

jayleigh68 · September 2015

I loved my first birth month board on the bump. This one, not so much. It amazes me how differing opinions can cause some of you to be so disrespectful. I came here to see if I'd like to be a part of this group and this thread helped me make my decision.

PS I would really like to see this "science" some keep referencing. There must be some research studies that were done if that word keeps getting thrown around.

kimmecakes · September 2015

I'm in agreement, I'm starting to think these boards are really not for me, some really cutting responses at a time when we can all be really sensitive. I really thought it would be nice especially in the secret stage to be able to chat with like minded ladies in the same position as me but there are only a few so far who have been helpful and kind in responses.
What a crazy world we live in

pinottoparenthood · September 2015

jonesl12 · September 2015

Yes, many case studies have been done. Average gestational age where the mother has felt fetal movement ( using ultrasound as the visual ) is between 16 and 24 weeks. In subsequent pregnancies I've read that fetal movement can be detected by the mother as early as 14 weeks. Science isn't disrespectful. People don't like being told they are wrong and instead of learning, they become defensive and hateful.

Listen, if it makes somebody feel good to say they feel their10 week fetus move then let's just let them have their special moment with their gas. Better yet suggest they go to their ob and tell them how they felt their fetus move at 10 weeks . I'm sure the ob will be wrong as well .

I have worked ob since college and I'll never understand the whole " I'm a mom, I know " thing but I do know moms are wrong too.

cmerribury · September 2015

@jayleigh68 @kimmecakes I've been spending time on other boards more as well. It's become pretty toxic around here. My child knows how to graciously concede an argument better than some of the adults in this BMB. 1st tri is nice, and (though I hope you have no reason to be there) the ladies at pregnancy after a loss are lovely and very supportive. I hope to see you both at one of those, hopefully the former.

pinottoparenthood · September 2015

cmerribury said:

1st tri is nice

:-/

cmerribury · September 2015

Maybe I should clarify: 1st tri is nicer than here.

rel1988 · September 2015

This thread has been hilarious. Thanks for the Friday laughs!!

mumidi · September 2015

I'm on the it's gas bandwagon, sorry, I really don't think you can feel something that tiny.

cmerribury · September 2015

@jayleigh68, your request for scientific research sent me off on a lunchtime quest (I have a tendency to want to learn more about things once I delve into them). There isn't much published on this (and most research on maternal perception of fetal movement is focused on the late second- and early third-trimester when attempting to determine if fetal movement counting is an accurate prediction of a healthy pregnancy) but here are a few things I was able to find.

"Most women used words that described an increase in strength of movements throughout their pregnancy regardless of gestation. From 32 to 41 weeks gestation, some women reported less movements but all described increasing strength. Our findings suggest that pregnant women are aware of the quantitative movement changes and are aware of increasing strength. The mean gestation for women to perceive first movements was 19 weeks, in accordance with previous research [16,23]. However, our results also found that over a quarter of women recognised their first movement after 20 weeks, and this may be useful information for both clinicians and pregnant women. Earliest detection of fetal movement was 7 weeks, which concurs with a small ultrasound study of women who reported that there are “just discernible movements” from 7 weeks (10).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572429/

First fetal movements perceptible by the mother are generally reported between 16 and 20 weeks, although there is considerable variation in this, with some women reporting fetal movements as early as seven weeks gestation and as late as 30 weeks (Raynes-Greenow et al., 2013). Parous women are able to identify movements earlier than women in a first pregnancy (Gillieson et al., 1985). It is not known whether parity itself increases sensitivity to fetal movements or if earlier quickening in parous women is an artefact of learning to identify the sensations.

AND

Although correlation between maternally-perceived and objectively recorded fetal movements is generally good, there is large inter-individual difference(Gettinger et al., 1978; Hertogs et al., 1979; Schmidt et al., 1984). In Gettinger and colleagues’ (1987) study of 40 pregnant women, 40% of movements recorded on ultrasound were perceived by the pregnant woman, but between subjects accuracy ranged from 0-94%.

https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/3647/thesis.pdf?sequence=2

Overall it was very interesting reading about this, whatever the reason for my quest. I hope that satisfies your scientific query.

PeggyOlsonFTW · September 2015

cmerribury said:

@jayleigh68, your request for scientific research sent me off on a lunchtime quest (I have a tendency to want to learn more about things once I delve into them). There isn't much published on this (and most research on maternal perception of fetal movement is focused on the late second- and early third-trimester when attempting to determine if fetal movement counting is an accurate prediction of a healthy pregnancy) but here are a few things I was able to find.

"Most women used words that described an increase in strength of movements throughout their pregnancy regardless of gestation. From 32 to 41 weeks gestation, some women reported less movements but all described increasing strength. Our findings suggest that pregnant women are aware of the quantitative movement changes and are aware of increasing strength. The mean gestation for women to perceive first movements was 19 weeks, in accordance with previous research [16,23]. However, our results also found that over a quarter of women recognised their first movement after 20 weeks, and this may be useful information for both clinicians and pregnant women. Earliest detection of fetal movement was 7 weeks, which concurs with a small ultrasound study of women who reported that there are “just discernible movements” from 7 weeks (10).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572429/

First fetal movements perceptible by the mother are generally reported between 16 and 20 weeks, although there is considerable variation in this, with some women reporting fetal movements as early as seven weeks gestation and as late as 30 weeks (Raynes-Greenow et al., 2013). Parous women are able to identify movements earlier than women in a first pregnancy (Gillieson et al., 1985). It is not known whether parity itself increases sensitivity to fetal movements or if earlier quickening in parous women is an artefact of learning to identify the sensations.

AND

Although correlation between maternally-perceived and objectively recorded fetal movements is generally good, there is large inter-individual difference(Gettinger et al., 1978; Hertogs et al., 1979; Schmidt et al., 1984). In Gettinger and colleagues’ (1987) study of 40 pregnant women, 40% of movements recorded on ultrasound were perceived by the pregnant woman, but between subjects accuracy ranged from 0-94%.

https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/3647/thesis.pdf?sequence=2
Overall it was very interesting reading about this, whatever the reason for my quest. I hope that satisfies your scientific query.

BUT, how are you going to verify what they actually feel? There's no way to confirm that. Just because someone says it's true, doesn't mean it is. Just like when people say God talks to them.

AmadorRose · September 2015

And how does this study rule out crackpots? IJS, I feel a lot of movement down there - like my uterus stretching and the "flutterings" of gas telling me that my prunes aren't working and I really, really need to take a dump. Let's not forget there was also a study done linking vaccines to autism, and (hopefully) we all know that was faker than Pamela anderson's boobs. One study is not enough to make something true.

cmerribury · September 2015

If you look at the bolded part above it was confirmed by simultaneous ultrasound.

PeggyOlsonFTW · September 2015

But if I'm looking at a baby moving on an ultrasound, I could be like "yeah I feel that!" That would be super easy to lie. Even if you couldn't see the screen, if you ate/drank something sweet beforehand, the baby would likely be moving the whole time and you could just randomly say you felt movement and have it be accurate.

AmadorRose · September 2015

cmerribury said:
If you look at the bolded part above it was confirmed by simultaneous ultrasound.

They're moving consistently anyway. Were they able to pinpoint movements? At 7 weeks, could someone differentiate between kicking, punching, and twirls? I'm pretty certain my bean is moving right now, because I've seen ultrasounds of fetuses. I actually watch them regularly on another app which updates as I progress through my pregnancy. That doesn't mean that my olive-sized fetus is large enough for me to feel.

DougalMcG · September 2015

I really don't give a flying F what people do or do not feel in their utes, but I did just want to point out that the fraudulent "vaccines cause autism" study was conducted by a dude who was in cahoots with a group of trial lawyers and basically just wanted money. Got to give the NIH a bit more respect than that. They've got nothing to gain from a claim like that. Carry on my friends.

cmerribury · September 2015

So, you scream "SCIENCE!" and I produce two research articles where medical and research professionals (sciencey folk, for sure) do not disregard maternal perception of fetal movement as early as 7 weeks (which is still 2 full and 3 full weeks earlier than both OP and myself) and you STILL believe you know better...that doesn't sound very scientific to me.

PeggyOlsonFTW · September 2015

I didn't scream science. I'm asking legitimate questions and pointing out potential flaws with the study. I didn't read the study, no time right now. Did it say how many women or what percentage felt movement in the first trimester?

AmadorRose · September 2015

DougalMcG said:
I really don't give a flying F what people do or do not feel in their utes, but I did just want to point out that the fraudulent "vaccines cause autism" study was conducted by a dude who was in cahoots with a group of trial lawyers and basically just wanted money. Got to give the NIH a bit more respect than that. They've got nothing to gain from a claim like that. Carry on my friends.

My point is that you can't trust one single study because you don't know the motivation behind the research.
ETA: Anyone with a basic statistics course under her belt can tell you that numbers can easily be manipulated to say whatever the researcher wants them to say.

cmerribury · September 2015

I realize you didn't specifically scream science, others did. Apologies if it seemed directed at you. I am no longer in front of my computer so I can not speak to specifics. It did indicate that it was a small portion of women who felt the movement early, and that perception ranged in accuracy from woman to woman from 0-90(something)% accuracy. I didn't post this to fuel the fire, it was in response to a specific request from one poster, which is why I tagged her in it. I hope if nothing else I hope that it illustrates that we perceive to be true is not always true. And, at the very least I hope that it will at least stop the derogatory responses from some on this thread. I consider myself to be an educated person. I took the time to research this because so many said it was impossible. However, that is not what I found.

cmerribury · September 2015

AmadorRose said:

DougalMcG said:
I really don't give a flying F what people do or do not feel in their utes, but I did just want to point out that the fraudulent "vaccines cause autism" study was conducted by a dude who was in cahoots with a group of trial lawyers and basically just wanted money. Got to give the NIH a bit more respect than that. They've got nothing to gain from a claim like that. Carry on my friends.
My point is that you can't trust one single study because you don't know the motivation behind the research.
ETA: Anyone with a basic statistics course under her belt can tell you that numbers can easily be manipulated to say whatever the researcher wants them to say.

There were two separate studies cited, decades apart.

TheBorg7of9 · September 2015

At 10 weeks, the baby weighs less than an ounce. You might not even feel that if someone threw it at your head, let alone from inside the thick layers of the uterine wall. Also, the baby has stubs for arms and legs.

If you were wearing thick winter gloves and a ladybug landed on your hand, I wouldn't believe you if you said you could feel that either.

AmadorRose · September 2015

I think what people are trying to get at here is that if you want to think you felt your .5 oz embryo move, more power to you. But there are going to be a lot of people who will look at you like you're a blooming idiot because common sense tells us how unlikely this is. I wouldn't feel half an ounce hit my foot, much less move around in my uterus.

cmerribury · September 2015

You guys really don't like when people disagree with you, do you? I hope you take comfort in your "common sense" being more valuable than the opinion of (published) medical professionals. Though, I think that was the original complaint about us...

kimmecakes · September 2015

Thanks @cmerribury I'll see you on the first trimester boards

maybe more like minded folk there

PeggyOlsonFTW · September 2015

Try asking this question on first trimester and see what happens.

cmerribury · September 2015

That sounded vaguely threatening @KDHB13

PeggyOlsonFTW · September 2015

Not at all. Genuinely curious. ETA: if you guys think they're nicer, I'd like to see their replies.

cmerribury · September 2015

I have no intention of bringing up this topic again, I've found the evidence I needed and I hope it provided comfort to those who were repeatedly called uneducated idiots on this thread. What I meant when I said they were nicer is that since I've been over there I haven't seen any of them attacking one another as I do over here. Every time someone has created a thread one of the core women in this group comes along and polices her. If you all feel you are in the right, you are entitled to that. However, you've made this place an unsafe and unfriendly place for a lot of women. Some of them first time moms. I'm not sure why there seems to be such a movement to bring other women down. (But I'm sure this, like every other opinion that runs counter to that of said core group will be laughed at and belittled. That's your right, but overall none of you seem like very nice people to me, and I think that counts a lot more than being right on an Internet thread.)

kimmecakes · September 2015

If you look it wasn't me who asked this question, just supportive of the young lady that did.
It's not just this thread that I have noticed cranky replies on.
On other posts some replies were rude, aggressive and frankly upsetting to see.
I just really don't know where some people get off on being so blunt.
Are mums not known for sugar coating there words??
You can be opinionated in a nice way without putting others down.
I'll stick with pink and fluffy for my kids as I know they will treat others how they would like to be treated. Minding your manners cost nothing.

mccartra · September 2015

Thank you @cmerribury for actually doing research before quoting "science" and for being polite and helpful while making your points. I was almost to the point of investigating this myself and curious as to how they gathered information on this topic, thank you for sharing.

cmerribury · September 2015

You're welcome @mccartra, I'm glad you found it helpful.

K&Elizabeth · September 2015

jayleigh68 said:
I loved my first birth month board on the bump. This one, not so much. It amazes me how differing opinions can cause some of you to be so disrespectful. I came here to see if I'd like to be a part of this group and this thread helped me make my decision.

PS I would really like to see this "science" some keep referencing. There must be some research studies that were done if that word keeps getting thrown around.

According to American Pregnancy, in subsequent pregnancies " first detection of movement can be felt, ranging from 13-25 weeks."

I'll creep back into the shadows now.

SisterMaryNapalm · September 2015

@cmerribury I would be more impressed with a literature review than isolated studies which, frankly, could be produced to prove your point rather than a stringent review of the literature (confirmation bias).

This study mentions that the fetus weighs 105 grams at 4 months while a 2 month fetus is ~1 gram (a tiny fraction of what is needed to feel movement)
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=aaklGZAID08C&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=feeling+fetal+movement+first+trimester+literature&source=bl&ots=MO4ZAQUWTq&sig=RCRLVUENlEegHuFrGhGHI0ediIE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBzgKahUKEwiLpb20o_HHAhVjnqYKHaNBAhM#v=onepage&q=feeling fetal movement first trimester literature&f=false

This book mentions movement in the 2nd trimester.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ifY9QTxE9oIC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=feeling+fetal+movement+first+trimester+literature&source=bl&ots=12X2qLy_D4&sig=bZgr3a3mIGZc7jkZVE6AC7NA0VU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBjgKahUKEwiLpb20o_HHAhVjnqYKHaNBAhM#v=onepage&q=feeling fetal movement first trimester literature&f=false

This website also mentions 13w as the earliest time
https://americanpregnancy.org/while-pregnant/first-fetal-movement/

This book says 18w for first time mums.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=oFqmBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA592&lpg=PA592&dq=feeling+early+fetal+movement+first+trimester+literature&source=bl&ots=PtiCb0ltFQ&sig=_ZraDBMS4IETn2Dc6qXG85F5ilM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCWoVChMI9K-ur6TxxwIVpyWmCh0H0gKo#v=onepage&q=feeling early fetal movement first trimester literature&f=false

Whilst I recognise these may not be scientific studies, the overall picture that professionals are giving/receiving is that the second trimester is the time you will feel movement. Individual studies prove little, hence why scientists need to be able to replicate experiments and come to a professional consensus. If this was replicated in strict conditions, then the medical consensus would change. Currently, professionals (OBs, midwives etc) are saying mid second trimester for movements because that is what is the consensus of the medical research tells us.

I will also add that the study of movement and its correlation to healthy pregnancies is being thoroughly researched so if early detection of movement was recognised, wouldn't it be communicated as a possible promising sign to new mums?

TL;DR: General consensus trumps single studies because results need to be replicated multiple times. If the consensus says 2nd Tri, then that's what it is until proven otherwise.

AmadorRose · September 2015

@SrMaryNapalm - I want to be your friend but I think you're too smart for me.

kmbeaner411 · September 2015

To those of you being condescending in your responses ~ are you always such b*tches or are your hormones to blame? How about you realize that this may be the first pregnancy for some people and questions that may sound dumb to you are just things on another person's mind? Also, I am fairly certain none of you rude ones are doctors (I'm certain you would have mentioned it otherwise), so stop acting like you can give medical advice based on your googling capability. Probably the same aholes that don't vaccinate (yep I went there).

@KimmyAshworth Who cares if it's 'real' or not, either way I'm happy you're enjoying your pregnancy

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