From nearly-exclusive pumping to nursing

marijaa333 · June 2015

Hello again lovely people!

My son is getting better at the breast (hallelujah!) and it now takes only 40 minutes to get a few ounces in him. This is progress in our books.

With a definite if slow upward trend, I'd like to start reducing the number of feedings he gets from a bottle (it's all breast milk) so that majority of them are at the breast. However, I'm afraid to mess up my supply if I don't pump often enough. Pumping after every single feed seems doable if a baby eats on a regular schedule, but what about cluster feeding periods, which he seems to have in the mornings as well as evenings?

If anyone has done this before, I would love to hear how you did it and whether it worked out.

Thanks!

ldmw · July 2015

I am also slowly trying to get back to breast, but we're still doing breast and bottle with breast milk due to my low supply. What I am doing is keeping to my original pumping schedule of 8 times a day. Sometime baby will eat twice before I pump again but I stay to pumping every 3 hours.

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw wow, pumping eight times plus nursing twice is truly heroic!

I was pumping six times and nursing twice until earlier this week and now I'm down to pumping 4-5 times and nursing 5-6 times. I can't wait to reduce the pumping to twice a day or so and be able to "sleep through the night" with only one MOTN nursing session.

We can do it!

Lbug09 · July 2015

Just chiming in because I'm also an almost exclusive pumper trying to get my baby to breastfeeding. She'll be one month old on Saturday. I don't have any advice but just wanted to connect because I feel so alone! She'll latch on but only with a nipple shield. But is only efficient enouth to get milk out of the right side. She can latch on the left without the shield but it's not deep enough and makes my nipple sore. I have flat nipples but they evert fairly well but then they're just too large for her mouth. What an odd problem. She had a lip tie which has been fixed and her tongue moves well, the problem is my anatomy and her tiny mouth. The LC assures me she just needs to grow a little bigger but it's hard for me to stay positive. I have a son also who is 2 and I breastfed him until he was 18 months so I know I can do it but it's so heartbreaking because I didn't think I'd have a problem this time! I used a shield with him on the left side until 2 months and on the right side until about 7 or 8 months. But I guess he was just more efficient and was getting more milk than my daughter can get. I did supplement him with bottles of breast milk in the beginning just not as often as I do with my daughter. Anyway sorry to high jack your post. Just commiserating that I'm also pumping at least 8 times a day and attempting to nurse. I'm always looking for message boards and posts of people who made it through and we're successful to lift my spirits!

marijaa333 · July 2015

@Lbug09 Welcome and please highjack away! I can't tell you what an incredible difference I've seen in the last two weeks, so I'm willing to bet you will be doing much better when you get to six weeks too.

My son is also way better on one (left) side than on the other.

We went to see the LC again today. She suggested seeing a pediatric specialist for suck/swallow problems, so we're now trying to locate one that comes recommended in our area.

The LC also taught me how to get a better latch by pressing the nipple way up against his nose and sliding it under his upper lip. It's hard to describe but really works.

Lbug09 · July 2015

@marijaa333 That's so great to hear that you guys are doing so much better!! The dentist who specializes in tongue/lip tie correction and breastfeeding said her tongue moves great and she just needs to grow and she'll get more efficient. I think the problem is me and my anatomy unfortunately. But I know my son latched well when he grew a little older and I'm hoping it will be the same for my daughter. We'll keep doing skin to skin and practicing latch and using the shield. I'll go back to the LC in a week or 2 to see if she can help me get the latch. That latch technique sounds interesting, I'll have to try it. I watch so many videos of latching but everyone always has the perfect nipple and I don't see any with flat or inverted nipples. Frustrating!

ldmw · July 2015

@lbug09 I think we have similar nipple issues! My LO has no ties, but my nipples are huge and one is flat. I always wondered if this was part of our problem and I bet it is. We use a nipple shield also. I took it off last week once and it worked for a little bit but it hurt me so I stopped.

I am so glad we have this thread for supporting one another.

Lbug09 · July 2015

@ldmw yes it does sound like we have similar issues! It never occurred to me that mine were too big until the LC mentioned it to me. How old is your LO? Does your LO get enough milk or do you have to pump and bottle feed too? My son did fine with the shield that's part of why this is so frustrating to me! I only gave a few bottles, rather than one for every feeding like I do now. But I wonder if I should have been doing that for him and just didn't know... It's hard to remember but it was difficult to make sure he got enough and nursing sessions took a long time. It DOES get better, trust me! Its hard to trust and believe that, but I had so many issues and it even got me better for me!! That's what keeps me going. You're doing great, hang in there!

ldmw · July 2015

I am pumping and bottle feeding after nursing. That's why I only nurse one to two times a day because I'm also pumping 8 times a day. I used to nurse-bottle-pump each time but it got to be way too much to handle. I also limit the time on our nursing sessions. I probably shouldn't but she would nurse for up to an hour if I let her.

marijaa333 · July 2015

ldmw said:

I am pumping and bottle feeding after nursing. That's why I only nurse one to two times a day because I'm also pumping 8 times a day. I used to nurse-bottle-pump each time but it got to be way too much to handle. I also limit the time on our nursing sessions. I probably shouldn't but she would nurse for up to an hour if I let her.

This was us until a week ago to a T! Now I can feed him and he can be content (not at every feed, but say, every other), which is huge progress. Hang in there and keep it up.

ldmw · July 2015

marijaa333 said:

ldmw said:

I am pumping and bottle feeding after nursing. That's why I only nurse one to two times a day because I'm also pumping 8 times a day. I used to nurse-bottle-pump each time but it got to be way too much to handle. I also limit the time on our nursing sessions. I probably shouldn't but she would nurse for up to an hour if I let her.

This was us until a week ago to a T! Now I can feed him and he can be content (not at every feed, but say, every other), which is huge progress. Hang in there and keep it up.

That gives me hope! I just finished nursing and was so proud that she sucked and guzzled the whole time, just like when she takes a bottle. She still needed a bottle after but this is a huge step for us!

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw nicely done! it will just get better and better from here

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

Ok, i have been pumping mostly as well. I try to breast feed when she is able and willing but most times she will just prefer the bottle. I pump not as frequently during the day and usually once in middle of the night and early morning - however I have become engorged again and even with pumping it out and massage, I have had soreness and every time my breast fills up the ducts get lumpy and hard again. When I pump it's a large quantity, sometimes 250cc or more per pump. The lactation nurse told me to use cabbage leaves on the affected sore areas to reduce inflammation and reduce amount of milk flowing. I have also been afraid to fall asleep because I am a belly sleeper and sleeping on boobs can also cause clogged ducts. I am so so so frustrated and pumping and nursing has become a drag and painful so much I could cry!

ldmw · July 2015

Any tips for getting a good latch with big nipples? I stopped using the nipple shield today and I have been able to nurse without a bottle to follow. YAy! Except now my nipple hurts and I know it is because we don't have a deep latch. We have a deep latch with shield but not without.

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw Yes! My lactation consultant just showed us this "nipple flip" last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXLFveF1FLA

It works well when the baby is hesitant to open wide enough, which is one of our problems occasionally.

Congrats on getting a full feed! I had one last night too--it feels like such an accomplishment.

ldmw · July 2015

Thanks! Looks kind of difficult but I'll practice it

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

marijaa333 said:
@ldmw Yes! My lactation consultant just showed us this "nipple flip" last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXLFveF1FLA

It works well when the baby is hesitant to open wide enough, which is one of our problems occasionally.

Congrats on getting a full feed! I had one last night too--it feels like such an accomplishment.

Yes, this is how they taught me at the hospital. Problem is getting her to open up when nipple isn't right in front of her mouth. She will do sometimes but not always

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

ccarrozza1 said:

marijaa333 said:
@ldmw Yes! My lactation consultant just showed us this "nipple flip" last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXLFveF1FLA

It works well when the baby is hesitant to open wide enough, which is one of our problems occasionally.

Congrats on getting a full feed! I had one last night too--it feels like such an accomplishment.
Yes, this is how they taught me at the hospital. Problem is getting her to open up when nipple isn't right in front of her mouth. She will do sometimes but not always

Love this video by the way

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ccarrozza1 I only use this "nipple flip" when he won't open up wide;I press the nipple against his upper lip, then when he opens, it flips/slides right in.

ldmw · July 2015

How have you given up control of knowing exactly how much your baby is eating? I spoke with my pediatrician this morning and she said I shouldn't worry. At 2 months old she will not starve. She will cry and let us know if she's still hungry. As long as she is going similar distance between feedings as she was with the bottle and has wet and dirty diapers, then she's fine.

I know all this but am still struggling to relinquish control. I worry so much if she is getting enough, especially because I am still pumping after and getting only a little less milk than I used to get without nursing first. I know baby is more efficient than a pump, but that efficient? Ugh, feeding is so hard.

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw I haven't come to terms with up control either -- really struggling with that!

I don't worry he's starving anymore (because he DOES let us know), but I produce around 4oz more than he eats per day and I want to continue doing so in order to build a stash. By just breastfeeding, my supply would dwindle to only what he needs and no more, so I am trying to pump more than he would eat, but it's really hard to figure out how long I can take after a feed or pumping session without compromising supply...

ldmw · July 2015

I need support ladies. I feel like giving up again. After a week or two of nursing with the nipple shield, I increased the number of feedings and got some full feedings over the last few days. Well, I just realized the nipple shield is giving me terrible blisters.

I was SO proud of us. We were doing so good. Now, my nipple is being pulled through the shield. They don't make shields any larger so I am stuck not using one. My LC still hasn't called me back so in the meantime I am trying to latch without it and it HURTS BAD! Reminds me of the beginning when I stopped and went to EP. So, I'm taking a break these next few feedings but I don't want to quit but feel like throwing in the towel.

ldmw · July 2015

@marijaa333 I know how you feel. Today alone I've done 8 pumps and 3-4 nursing sessions. It's a ridiculous amount of time but I had low supply for so long and probably am still concerned low that I am afraid my supply will deplete. I can't risk that again. It felt so good to freeze a few bags of milk, but that was short lived. Ugh!

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw Do whatever you need to do to stay in the game (if that's your goal). If that means going back to EP for a few feeds or even days, there's no harm in that.

I think wanting to quit is normal. I definitely felt hopeless a few times over the last 3-4 weeks but it's a lot better now, even though we;re far from having figured it all out. In fact, I sit here pumping after my kiddo wouldn't finish a feed an hour ago.

It sounds like you haven't received the right help to figure out the latch. Can you see a different LC? I ended up getting a second opinion which helped a lot. In the meantime, I would recommend spending lots of time watching YouTube videos on how to get a good latch until you find ones you like/click. Here's one to start: with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85e4170qda4

PS What has changed from when you were doing well? Are you positioning your baby differently, sitting in a different spot, or changing anything else? How is your LO doing otherwise?

ldmw · July 2015

The only thing that changed was going off the nipple shield. We have a great latch with the shield but a terrible latch without it. I've watched so many videos. I know everything to do but just can't seem to do it right without a shield. LO is doing great. I'm so proud of her - she'll latch on to anything. She's actually starting to prefer the breast, which has me excited until we latch and it hurts so bad I have to stop.

I do want to hang in there, I just want to figure out this latch issue. One step forward, 2 steps back.

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw then stick with the shield a while longer! I also tried going off the shield on my right breast yesterday -- ouch! back on it went.

It's awesome that she's showing a preference for the breast!

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

marijaa333 said:
@ldmw I haven't come to terms with up control either -- really struggling with that!

I don't worry he's starving anymore (because he DOES let us know), but I produce around 4oz more than he eats per day and I want to continue doing so in order to build a stash. By just breastfeeding, my supply would dwindle to only what he needs and no more, so I am trying to pump more than he would eat, but it's really hard to figure out how long I can take after a feed or pumping session without compromising supply...

Ugh, yeah. I totally understand. There is so much unknown when you are breast feeding. I want to make sure she has enough and is gaining and when I only breast feed directly without the bottle, I worry she hasn't eaten a full amount!

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

marijaa333 said:
@ccarrozza1 I only use this "nipple flip" when he won't open up wide;I press the nipple against his upper lip, then when he opens, it flips/slides right in.

Yeah, I tried it with nipple to nose and most of the time she just stares at it blankly but if I put the nipple closer to her mouth she will try to open but often shallow and quick or she will put her hands in her face or mouth or block me completely from seeing if thr nipple is near her mouth. When her hands start going, that's when I get frustrated

ldmw · July 2015

marijaa333 said:
@ldmw then stick with the shield a while longer! I also tried going off the shield on my right breast yesterday -- ouch! back on it went.

It's awesome that she's showing a preference for the breast!

I wish I could stick with the shield but she pulls my nipple through the shield and I have blisters. I can't believe I am jealous of my formula feeding friends. No pain, no pump, no waking up in MOTN to pump when baby sleeps, so much less time spent feeding.

Lbug09 · July 2015

ccarrozza1 said:

marijaa333 said:
@ccarrozza1 I only use this "nipple flip" when he won't open up wide;I press the nipple against his upper lip, then when he opens, it flips/slides right in.

Yeah, I tried it with nipple to nose and most of the time she just stares at it blankly but if I put the nipple closer to her mouth she will try to open but often shallow and quick or she will put her hands in her face or mouth or block me completely from seeing if thr nipple is near her mouth. When her hands start going, that's when I get frustrated

This is me. She rarely opens her mouth wide enough. And then she gets frustrated right away and pushes at me with her hands. I actually got her to latch without the shield 2 days ago on one side and it was perfection! No pain, and she was drinking...I don't know how I did it. It was only for about 5 min but i was ecstatic! I've been doing the nipple pinch thing to create more for her to latch to. The nipple flip doesn't seem to work for me, maybe I'm not doing it right. But of course yesterday and today so far I haven't been successful getting her to latch again. So the tears and frustration are back. Its like there's this golden window of opportunity where she's not too sleepy, and not too hungry and I'm full but not too full. My mood goes from optimistic to depressed about 15 times a day. Here's some quotes I saved on my phone to lift my spirits when I'm down.

"You are doing way better than the exhaustion and hormones will let you see."

"You've made it this far and you will make it through. You are stronger than you think"

ccarrozza1 · July 2015

Lbug09 said:

ccarrozza1 said:

marijaa333 said:
@ccarrozza1 I only use this "nipple flip" when he won't open up wide;I press the nipple against his upper lip, then when he opens, it flips/slides right in.

Yeah, I tried it with nipple to nose and most of the time she just stares at it blankly but if I put the nipple closer to her mouth she will try to open but often shallow and quick or she will put her hands in her face or mouth or block me completely from seeing if thr nipple is near her mouth. When her hands start going, that's when I get frustrated
This is me. She rarely opens her mouth wide enough. And then she gets frustrated right away and pushes at me with her hands. I actually got her to latch without the shield 2 days ago on one side and it was perfection! No pain, and she was drinking...I don't know how I did it. It was only for about 5 min but i was ecstatic! I've been doing the nipple pinch thing to create more for her to latch to. The nipple flip doesn't seem to work for me, maybe I'm not doing it right. But of course yesterday and today so far I haven't been successful getting her to latch again. So the tears and frustration are back. Its like there's this golden window of opportunity where she's not too sleepy, and not too hungry and I'm full but not too full. My mood goes from optimistic to depressed about 15 times a day. Here's some quotes I saved on my phone to lift my spirits when I'm down.

"You are doing way better than the exhaustion and hormones will let you see."

"You've made it this far and you will make it through. You are stronger than you think"

Wow, it's like I am talking to myself! Those are exactly the same things that happen to me and I totally feel for your frustration! Same thing with my daughter..she has to be in the right mood and not too hungry; not too tired. I get some feeds that are great and I get excited and then the next two are screaming, throwing up her hands and or not opening mouth at the right time or place etc. Thank you for the words of encouragement! It does help!

marijaa333 · July 2015

Same here ladies... must be in the right mood at the right time, however, it does get better as the days go by.

ldmw · July 2015

I feel like I am the failure. My LO will eat from a bottle, my breast with a shield, or latch to my breast without a shield - all with no fussiness on her part. I'm the one in pain without a shield due to bad latch. Feels like I'm the problem and that hurts.

marijaa333 · July 2015

@ldmw don't think of it in terms of failure on either of your parts. This is not easy for most moms and babies. How old is your LO again? Are you seeing any improvement from day to day, even minuscule?

Also, what size is your nipple shield? Maybe you need a slightly bigger one?

Lbug09 · July 2015

ccarrozza1 said:

Lbug09 said:

ccarrozza1 said:

marijaa333 said:
@ccarrozza1 I only use this "nipple flip" when he won't open up wide;I press the nipple against his upper lip, then when he opens, it flips/slides right in.

Yeah, I tried it with nipple to nose and most of the time she just stares at it blankly but if I put the nipple closer to her mouth she will try to open but often shallow and quick or she will put her hands in her face or mouth or block me completely from seeing if thr nipple is near her mouth. When her hands start going, that's when I get frustrated
This is me. She rarely opens her mouth wide enough. And then she gets frustrated right away and pushes at me with her hands. I actually got her to latch without the shield 2 days ago on one side and it was perfection! No pain, and she was drinking...I don't know how I did it. It was only for about 5 min but i was ecstatic! I've been doing the nipple pinch thing to create more for her to latch to. The nipple flip doesn't seem to work for me, maybe I'm not doing it right. But of course yesterday and today so far I haven't been successful getting her to latch again. So the tears and frustration are back. Its like there's this golden window of opportunity where she's not too sleepy, and not too hungry and I'm full but not too full. My mood goes from optimistic to depressed about 15 times a day. Here's some quotes I saved on my phone to lift my spirits when I'm down.

"You are doing way better than the exhaustion and hormones will let you see."

"You've made it this far and you will make it through. You are stronger than you think"
Wow, it's like I am talking to myself! Those are exactly the same things that happen to me and I totally feel for your frustration! Same thing with my daughter..she has to be in the right mood and not too hungry; not too tired. I get some feeds that are great and I get excited and then the next two are screaming, throwing up her hands and or not opening mouth at the right time or place etc. Thank you for the words of encouragement! It does help!

So glad I'm not alone! It's hard not to feel alone when struggling with breastfeeding because it's all on you to feed the baby. Let's keep trying and give ourselves a pat on the back for working so hard!

ldmw · July 2015

I'm using 24m nipple shield and use 27m and a 30m flange to pump. Have an appointment to see LC tomorrow. Hope that helps!

LO is 9 weeks.

marijaa333 · July 2015

Hmm, those are my sizes too (27 on the left, 30 on the right and I use the 24 shield only on the right).

Hope the appointment tomorrow goes super well! Keep us posted!

Lbug09 · July 2015

There is a size 28 nipple shield too, that's what I use. And I use a size 30 flange for pumping.
My LO is 4 weeks and takes a 3 ounce bottle of my breast milk at every feed. She'll take less if I got her to nurse prior. How much do your LO's take?

marijaa333 · July 2015

@Lbug09 I've stopped keeping track, but last I checked he drank a total of around 28oz per day. Much of it happens during his cluster feeding time (6-9pm).

ldmw · July 2015

What brand is the 28 shield and where did you get it from?

blossom3020 · July 2015

I feel so much better finding this feed my LO is only a few days old and we have some latch issues this is really giving me hope we can get it together ! But for now I increased pumping because latching on my left side seems impossible my right side flows like a fountain and she latches great I brought A nipple shield waiting to see my LC Friday to learn how to use it properly

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