I don't really think the taking down if the confederate flag is really about the silly flag itself. I think that it is politically motivated by a whack job whose opinion and point of view are not in line with the majority of America. Just because you have one doesn't mean you are a racist. We have to stop judging everyone by one persons actions. It has truly gotten ridiculous. Also why is it ok for the President to go on TV and say the N word but it's not ok for anyone else to say it. Double standard much?
No it's about the flag. A flag which has been a problem since long before President Obama was ever involved in government. There is no reason that flag should fly and to suggest it does not stand for hatred and racism is to ignore the reasons for the civil war as well as the way the flag has been misappropriated since.
If you mean President Obama when you refer to the whack job whose opinion isn't in line with the majority of America I'd suggest you need a new source for your information. You may not like the man and may disagree with him but the fact remains that he has been elected by a pretty nice majority twice.
The president used "the "n" word" in a podcast discussion and not on television. Not that it matters. I don't think you'd be saying this if you'd heard the discussion for yourself. You can find it in full online, it's not all that long. Just google Marc Maron podcast Obama and you should be able to find it. I like to inform myself before speaking out about things like that.
For factual accuracy's sake, Obama won the popular vote in 2012 with 51.1% of the vote. Calling that a "pretty nice majority" is a big stretch. That eeking it out.
Nope. That's a pretty nice majority. Go ahead and check out the popular vote percentages that both bushes and Clinton won with. They are anywhere from just under 43% and just over 48%. 51.1 and over 53 in 2008 are pretty good numbers.
Eta-- not that this has anything to do with anything. Especially since the poster I responded to clarified that the "whack job" in question was not our President.
Admittedly, I haven't participated on this thread, just been handing out love tits like mad. Just wanted to add, last time I checked, the popular vote isn't what gets presidents elected, so it's even less clear why this matters in the context of this conversation...
Me: 28, DH: 40 Married 9/28/13 DS born 11/12/15 EDD 8/13/18
I don't really think the taking down if the confederate flag is really about the silly flag itself. I think that it is politically motivated by a whack job whose opinion and point of view are not in line with the majority of America. Just because you have one doesn't mean you are a racist. We have to stop judging everyone by one persons actions. It has truly gotten ridiculous. Also why is it ok for the President to go on TV and say the N word but it's not ok for anyone else to say it. Double standard much?
No it's about the flag. A flag which has been a problem since long before President Obama was ever involved in government. There is no reason that flag should fly and to suggest it does not stand for hatred and racism is to ignore the reasons for the civil war as well as the way the flag has been misappropriated since.
If you mean President Obama when you refer to the whack job whose opinion isn't in line with the majority of America I'd suggest you need a new source for your information. You may not like the man and may disagree with him but the fact remains that he has been elected by a pretty nice majority twice.
The president used "the "n" word" in a podcast discussion and not on television. Not that it matters. I don't think you'd be saying this if you'd heard the discussion for yourself. You can find it in full online, it's not all that long. Just google Marc Maron podcast Obama and you should be able to find it. I like to inform myself before speaking out about things like that.
For factual accuracy's sake, Obama won the popular vote in 2012 with 51.1% of the vote. Calling that a "pretty nice majority" is a big stretch. That eeking it out.
Nope. That's a pretty nice majority. Go ahead and check out the popular vote percentages that both bushes and Clinton won with. They are anywhere from just under 43% and just over 48%. 51.1 and over 53 in 2008 are pretty good numbers.
Eta-- not that this has anything to do with anything. Especially since the poster I responded to clarified that the "whack job" in question was not our President.
Admittedly, I haven't participated on this thread, just been handing out love tits like mad. Just wanted to add, last time I checked, the popular vote isn't what gets presidents elected.
Well clearly Obama won the majority of electoral votes as well.......
And that is a great example of equality. Now don't get me wrong, I don't condone many of their cultural practices anyways, but it's refreshing to know that the country is united in equal expectations when it comes to certain things. In the states, it's been decided to change our rules to accommodate so as not to offend, but then certain things such as religious expression, are banned because they might offend. (This is deviating from the flag racism issue a little). Instead of treating every situation equally, it's a pick and choose.
Are you responding to my post? I get what you mean but the difference with the U.S. Is that we have individual states + state laws. In concept for your idea to work, individual state laws couldn't exist.
I'm sure this has something to do with the difficulty in unifying on ideas
Yes, sorry my lazy lack of quoting. Well my example would be freedom of religion, and I'm not trying to start a separate war here, but it's part of our constitution and applies to the entire country. While Christian activities are being banned in schools, special allowances are made for other activities related to non Christian religions. People are suing businesses because they're not bending over backward for them also (and I'm not talking about bigotry based restrictions like saying Muslim people aren't allowed here either). State laws cannot be more restrictive than or undermine federal laws, but they can offer additional rights or responsibilities.
@jasbaby2 - exactly - I was agreeing with you. I don't understand what it had to do with the conversation, that's all.
She brought up Obama and his "big majority" or whatever it was. No, elections aren't decided by popular vote. But 51.1% is not a mandate of "OMG EVERYONE loves him, what a huge majority". That was my point. 48% of voters didn't NOT want to elect him. That's all I'm saying.
@jasbaby2 - exactly - I was agreeing with you. I don't understand what it had to do with the conversation, that's all.
She brought up Obama and his "big majority" or whatever it was. No, elections aren't decided by popular vote. But 51.1% is not a mandate of "OMG EVERYONE loves him, what a huge majority". That was my point. 48% of voters didn't NOT want to elect him. That's all I'm saying.
Another poster made a comment about someone "whose ideas most Americans don't agree with" she didn't identify who she was speaking about and then went on to discuss obamas use of "the n word".
I pointed out among other things that Obama was elected and re-elected by quite a majority of the popular vote. My point being that in reality many Americans do agree with him on issues.
When you are talking about presidential elections Obama had more of the popular vote by a larger percentage than Clinton or either bush. You can go further back and I didn't really see anything higher than that. I think In the context of presidential elections 51.1 and 53% of the popular vote is a pretty "big" win of there ever is one.
I really don't care and I didn't intend to bring up obamas popularity as you seem to be implying. I was responding to another poster who as I have already stated clarified her post further and wasn't referring to the president
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are. No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me. And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally. Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views. If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this. I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
I'm sorry but being white has never, ever, ever been a downfall for me and I have never not had an opportunity because of being white. If anything, as sad as it is, I have been able to go further and do more because of being white. Just because you might have been called a honky or a cracker doesn't mean you have been racially oppressed. Racial oppression is not getting into a certain school because they've already reached their "black quota" (yes that's a real thing) or not getting a job or even getting to an interview because your name sounded "too black" on an application.
I'm sorry but being white has never, ever, ever been a downfall for me and I have never not had an opportunity because of being white. If anything, as sad as it is, I have been able to go further and do more because of being white. Just because you might have been called a honky or a cracker doesn't mean you have been racially oppressed. Racial oppression is not getting into a certain school because they've already reached their "black quota" (yes that's a real thing) or not getting a job or even getting to an interview because your name sounded "too black" on an application.
Here is where I have a huge issue. Granted YOU may not have experienced this, but it's not quite accurate to say people who are white don't face racial oppression. I already know, based on PPs that I'm not exercising a popular opinion, but it's something everyone should probably think about. After all it's "white privilege" (and THAT's not racist...prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior...I don't see where that definition particularly establishes that one race can not be included). Then again, many probably think that it only affects black people because it's all we have ever heard about and if nobody talks about it (esp media) then it can't possibly have happened, right?
Back when I was applying for college, my parents made enough to not be considered low income so short of academic excellence there were not a great deal of open opportunities to obtain scholarships and grants. My siblings actually moved out on their own prior to going to college so that the burden of paying didn't fall to our parents. But many could go on about responsible financial planning for them and that's fine, but they made due for us with what they had and that was it.
Don't think for one second that I didn't recognize that if was not listed as Caucasian, that I would have had a lot more opportunity because there's a push to "make up" for the sins of 150 years ago. Now I'm of Irish decent and I could potentially trace back to where my ancestors were enslaved, but I haven't seen any invitations to join the National Association for the Advancement of Irish People. That's not here or there though because I don't expect to receive particular treatment and allowances because of what happened so long ago.
No one ever thinks to consider reverse racism. How is black supremacy any less egregious than white supremacy. How is it any less horrendous when a black officer shoots a white person, or when a black offender victimizes a white person. If I was offered a scholarship or a job or a promotion somewhere for being white there would be cries of racism. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are white racists, but they aren't the only one. But no one wants to admit to the reverse because there's some demand that they have been oppressed in decades past and by gosh they want to hold on to that as long as possible.
How about everyone, no matter your clearly identifiable color, work hard, and do the right thing, and achieve success like that instead of depending on some entity to make up for suffering that they can in fact rise above. And that is broader than just race.
And while everyone is distracted about a piece of fabric that "represents" so much apparently, no one bothered to focus on congress' actions fast tracking the TPP and putting all taxpayers on the bottom of this deal.
How about we stop allowing ourselves to be race baited into the "them vs them" mentality, and be a unified country with goals that benefit everyone who wants to do better, not just get better.
Anyways. I'm not looking to change opinions but I think there's a better way too be forward then finger pointing and discussing personal entitlement issues.
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are. No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me. And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally. Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views. If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this. I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
This statement makes the people you associate with also sound uneducated. I'm 23 and from Ohio, yet I am aware, and have been since my early teenage years, that this has been viewed as a symbol of white supremacy under the guise of southern heritage. Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are. No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me. And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally. Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views. If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this. I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
Sometimes it would have been easier to not be white?? I really hope you are not still referring to the times you went to get your free food from the government . Be thankful you qualify for anything and stop complaining about how they "heckle" you because you're white. (Your words not mine)
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are. No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me. And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally. Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views. If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this. I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
This statement makes the people you associate with also sound uneducated. I'm 23 and from Ohio, yet I am aware, and have been since my early teenage years, that this has been viewed as a symbol of white supremacy under the guise of southern heritage. Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
This a thousand times over!
I live "up here in Michigan" and have lived in the Midwest or west all my life and yet I know what it stands for. Please stop trying to drum up drama and educate yourself.
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are.
No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me.
And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally.
Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views.
If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this.
I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
This statement makes the people you associate with also sound uneducated. I'm 23 and from Ohio, yet I am aware, and have been since my early teenage years, that this has been viewed as a symbol of white supremacy under the guise of southern heritage.
Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
I've stayed out of commenting in this post simply for the fact that everyone else has said what I'm thinking, just better. But this I 100% agree with. I grew up in Ohio as well and have always known what that flag has stood for. Claiming to live in the north does not absolve you from that knowledge or make the ignorance ok. OP, Stop making it sound like all northerners are oblivious and stupid.
I'm sorry but being white has never, ever, ever been a downfall for me and I have never not had an opportunity because of being white. If anything, as sad as it is, I have been able to go further and do more because of being white. Just because you might have been called a honky or a cracker doesn't mean you have been racially oppressed. Racial oppression is not getting into a certain school because they've already reached their "black quota" (yes that's a real thing) or not getting a job or even getting to an interview because your name sounded "too black" on an application.
Here is where I have a huge issue. Granted YOU may not have experienced this, but it's not quite accurate to say people who are white don't face racial oppression. I already know, based on PPs that I'm not exercising a popular opinion, but it's something everyone should probably think about. After all it's "white privilege" (and THAT's not racist...prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior...I don't see where that definition particularly establishes that one race can not be included). Then again, many probably think that it only affects black people because it's all we have ever heard about and if nobody talks about it (esp media) then it can't possibly have happened, right?
Back when I was applying for college, my parents made enough to not be considered low income so short of academic excellence there were not a great deal of open opportunities to obtain scholarships and grants. My siblings actually moved out on their own prior to going to college so that the burden of paying didn't fall to our parents. But many could go on about responsible financial planning for them and that's fine, but they made due for us with what they had and that was it.
Don't think for one second that I didn't recognize that if was not listed as Caucasian, that I would have had a lot more opportunity because there's a push to "make up" for the sins of 150 years ago. Now I'm of Irish decent and I could potentially trace back to where my ancestors were enslaved, but I haven't seen any invitations to join the National Association for the Advancement of Irish People. That's not here or there though because I don't expect to receive particular treatment and allowances because of what happened so long ago.
No one ever thinks to consider reverse racism. How is black supremacy any less egregious than white supremacy. How is it any less horrendous when a black officer shoots a white person, or when a black offender victimizes a white person. If I was offered a scholarship or a job or a promotion somewhere for being white there would be cries of racism. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are white racists, but they aren't the only one. But no one wants to admit to the reverse because there's some demand that they have been oppressed in decades past and by gosh they want to hold on to that as long as possible.
How about everyone, no matter your clearly identifiable color, work hard, and do the right thing, and achieve success like that instead of depending on some entity to make up for suffering that they can in fact rise above. And that is broader than just race.
And while everyone is distracted about a piece of fabric that "represents" so much apparently, no one bothered to focus on congress' actions fast tracking the TPP and putting all taxpayers on the bottom of this deal.
How about we stop allowing ourselves to be race baited into the "them vs them" mentality, and be a unified country with goals that benefit everyone who wants to do better, not just get better.
Anyways. I'm not looking to change opinions but I think there's a better way too be forward then finger pointing and discussing personal entitlement issues.
No. Just no. I'm white as well and while you make good points, we can't possibly compare things like that to the injustice and oppression that has been going on for years. How would you feel if you were a tall black man walking around a white neighborhood and people were pulling their kids aside and fast walking, or women are making sure to have a tight grip on their purses when you pass? We are white people- we are born with white privilege regardless of our income level or education level. It's an invisible edge we have that we shouldn't. Are you really gonna compare your circumstances to slavery? Or segregation? Or mass lynchings? STOP. Check your white priviledge. Boo hoo you got passed up for something, people of different races have it happen more than we do.
@scw89 First off I wasn't complaining about anything, so that point was clearly misinterpreted. I'm pointing out the fact that racism goes both ways. And if everyone wants to stick their heads in the sand because of something that no longer happens (slavery, segregation, and mass lynchings, as you stated) and use it as an excuse then that's their prerogative. It's one thing to recognize the mistakes of the past, but to dwell on them and force people to "repay" (not financially speaking per se) who had NOTHING to do with that era, just because of their race, then that to me is just as racist as telling someone they're not allowed somewhere because of their race or calling them a slur.
Again I'm not saying there aren't racist people out there, and by all means we should make efforts to eliminate racism, but continuing to NOT treat ALL persons equally, despite their color, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc is not going to solve the problem. That includes opportunities afforded to people based solely on the color of their skin, as opposed to merit, and not just removing symbols of hate, speech of hate, and the like.
Maybe you feel like you've benefited from your "white privilege" and that's your personal experience to deal with. I won't speak on that. But I can say that me, personally, I did not, so your generalization is just that, yours. I still find that term racist.
@scw89 First off I wasn't complaining about anything, so that point was clearly misinterpreted. I'm pointing out the fact that racism goes both ways. And if everyone wants to stick their heads in the sand because of something that no longer happens (slavery, segregation, and mass lynchings, as you stated) and use it as an excuse then that's their prerogative. It's one thing to recognize the mistakes of the past, but to dwell on them and force people to "repay" (not financially speaking per se) who had NOTHING to do with that era, just because of their race, then that to me is just as racist as telling someone they're not allowed somewhere because of their race or calling them a slur.
Again I'm not saying there aren't racist people out there, and by all means we should make efforts to eliminate racism, but continuing to NOT treat ALL persons equally, despite their color, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc is not going to solve the problem. That includes opportunities afforded to people based solely on the color of their skin, as opposed to merit, and not just removing symbols of hate, speech of hate, and the like.
Maybe you feel like you've benefited from your "white privilege" and that's your personal experience to deal with. I won't speak on that. But I can say that me, personally, I did not, so your generalization is just that, yours. I still find that term racist.
You're seriously trying to say you've never in your life experienced white privilege?
I have no words.
Me: 28, DH: 40 Married 9/28/13 DS born 11/12/15 EDD 8/13/18
I didn't go to a certain school because I was white? I paid my own way through college because I was white? I got a job that had zero to do with my race (in fact i work in a field where I would have been more appealing as a minority because statistically the DOJ worries about that sort of thing). I pay my bills and buy things and am having children, all because I'm white? I see people in my field, neighborhood, etc doing the exact same thing of other races as well. I also, in my experiences in my job field, where people are not successful spanning the color wheel.
I'd actually like to know what you've accomplished in your life because of your "white privilege". Things that you were able to do only because of your skin color, and not based on skills, merit, or ability.
I didn't go to a certain school because I was white? I paid my own way through college because I was white? I got a job that had zero to do with my race (in fact i work in a field where I would have been more appealing as a minority because statistically the DOJ worries about that sort of thing). I pay my bills and buy things and am having children, all because I'm white? I see people in my field, neighborhood, etc doing the exact same thing of other races as well. I also, in my experiences in my job field, where people are not successful spanning the color wheel.
I'd actually like to know what you've accomplished in your life because of your "white privilege". Things that you were able to do only because of your skin color, and not based on skills, merit, or ability.
:-/
1. I do not have to talk to my children about how systemic racism impacts their daily lives if I choose not to do so 2. People are not surprised or congratulatory at that fact that I am articulate 3. If I were a bad driver, people would not blame it on my race, but merely on the fact that I have a vagina 4. I can buy bandaids that match my and my child's skin color 5. I am not closely monitored in stores 6. No one will ever call my husband or child a thug 7. I am never asked to speak to a particular subject on behalf of my entire race
To name a few...
Me: 28, DH: 40 Married 9/28/13 DS born 11/12/15 EDD 8/13/18
I didn't go to a certain school because I was white? I paid my own way through college because I was white? I got a job that had zero to do with my race (in fact i work in a field where I would have been more appealing as a minority because statistically the DOJ worries about that sort of thing). I pay my bills and buy things and am having children, all because I'm white? I see people in my field, neighborhood, etc doing the exact same thing of other races as well. I also, in my experiences in my job field, where people are not successful spanning the color wheel.
I'd actually like to know what you've accomplished in your life because of your "white privilege". Things that you were able to do only because of your skin color, and not based on skills, merit, or ability.
:-/
1. I do not have to talk to my children about how systemic racism impacts their daily lives if I choose not to do so 2. People are not surprised or congratulatory at that fact that I am articulate 3. If I were a bad driver, people would not blame it on my race, but merely on the fact that I have a vagina 4. I can buy bandaids that match my and my child's skin color 5. I am not closely monitored in stores 6. No one will ever call my husband or child a thug 7. I am never asked to speak to a particular subject on behalf of my entire race
To name a few...
I, personally, feel like these statements do nothing but perpetuate racism. Or is that by agreeing to your "white privileges" you're empathetic toward "the struggle". Because you can point out instances of racist thought, you're still not explaining why you've been able to succeed in life because of "white privilege".
Because you've never been followed around in a store you've achieved things that others can't??
I didn't go to a certain school because I was white? I paid my own way through college because I was white? I got a job that had zero to do with my race (in fact i work in a field where I would have been more appealing as a minority because statistically the DOJ worries about that sort of thing). I pay my bills and buy things and am having children, all because I'm white? I see people in my field, neighborhood, etc doing the exact same thing of other races as well. I also, in my experiences in my job field, where people are not successful spanning the color wheel.
I'd actually like to know what you've accomplished in your life because of your "white privilege". Things that you were able to do only because of your skin color, and not based on skills, merit, or ability.
:-/
1. I do not have to talk to my children about how systemic racism impacts their daily lives if I choose not to do so 2. People are not surprised or congratulatory at that fact that I am articulate 3. If I were a bad driver, people would not blame it on my race, but merely on the fact that I have a vagina 4. I can buy bandaids that match my and my child's skin color 5. I am not closely monitored in stores 6. No one will ever call my husband or child a thug 7. I am never asked to speak to a particular subject on behalf of my entire race
To name a few...
I, personally, feel like these statements do nothing but perpetuate racism. Or is that by agreeing to your "white privileges" you're empathetic toward "the struggle". Because you can point out instances of racist thought, you're still not explaining why you've been able to succeed in life because of "white privilege".
Because you've never been followed around in a store you've achieved things that others can't??
So you're successful in your life and not facing a struggle because band aids match you?
Setting your children up to expect bias is not a productive way to do anything but expect the worst and feel like any shortcomings are potentially only because of their skin color...
Changing people's perceptions by being the best person you can be should be offensive...?
Oh good, a Wikipedia article. And better yet, one that's neutrality is disputed.
Let's just agree to disagree, because I find it unnecessary to perpetuate racial undertones in life as it deflects from an individual's own responsibility and self accountability.
I'm sorry if you've not been able to feel accomplished in your merits and talents in life and that you're stuck with your "white privilege".
I never said it didn't exist either, I just don't agree that the things you've mentioned about it directly translates into my personal life and my experiences.
@pink*sheep, while that's fine and all, I think PP's have done a lot of the talking for me. We don't have to make up for mistakes of the past, that's not what's happening. Do you not think that oppression and racism and White privilege don't exist anymore? do you think that awful horrible unjust things aren't still happening? While they happen to people of all colors, you and I both know who they usually happen to. Keep burying your head in the sand.
@scw89 again I never said those things didn't exist, but their existence in no way negates the fact that by focusing on ones color (negatively or positively) is irresponsible and not doing future generations any favors. So you'd really want to grow up with it being drilled into your head that when you walk out that door people are going to do and think horrible things because of your skin tone and you're going to struggle for it. Devaluing a person in this regard is no better than telling someone they're worthless because of their color.
And where I live and work, the race I'm going to guess you're referring to, is not the one I see discriminated against the most. So again, predisposing opinions are not always effective.
If believing that true equality for ALL people and not using the past as an excuse to not be a better HUMAN is having my head in the sand then so be it. I always enjoy the beach.
Wow. I haven't participated in this thread yet because I felt that most if what I had to say was said by others. But at this point I feel that maybe I ought to participate.
I am white skinned of Latina descent (my dad is from Cuba) so I feel like a have a bit of perspective from both side (although I'm not at all saying that I understand what it's like to be immediately judged by the color of your skin).
I grew up in the north and my family was constantly targeted with hate-mail by a neo-nazi group that existed nearby (an un-coincidentally flew a confederate flag).
I lived just outside of Detroit for 2 years and worked at a non-profit that ran programs in dozens of schools in the greater Detroit area. And if you can't see systemic racism at work there, you are blind.
The inner-city schools were 98% minorities. They had huge class sizes and zero resources. Our programs were often the only enrichment-type activities available to them. The uphill battle these kids had to fight to even graduate from high school, let alone go off to college and have successful work and family lives seemed almost insurmountable. Meanwhile, 10 miles up the road in many of the Detroit suburbs, the classes were 98% white and our programs were one of a myriad of opportunities the children had outside of the classroom. Class sizes were much smaller and the schools were full of parent volunteers and resources that virtually guaranteed the kids would get a great education and not fall through the cracks.
Systemic racism is not about you or about some black guy who might be racist towards whites. It's about the underlying opportunities and obstacles for different races that were set in motion a long time ago. The confederate flag flying over a state house certainly does not cause this, but is is a symbol of our government's permissiveness of these systems, and that is why it needs to go.
@pink*sheep well said. I don't 100% disagree with you, and I will say I appreciate the fact that we can debate on here without name calling or getting nasty. That shows a level of class and intelligence.
I apologize if I was not clearly reflecting my position. I do in fact believe that oppression still exists, and that there are hardships for minorities, but what I don't agree with is when it's used as an excuse to not do better. And there's a root cause amongst many of the issues minority children face that begins at home, and not because of the injustices from 150 years ago. But still that does not excuse perpetuation of racist ideals in our society.
I apologize if I was not clearly reflecting my position. I do in fact believe that oppression still exists, and that there are hardships for minorities, but what I don't agree with is when it's used as an excuse to not do better. And there's a root cause amongst many of the issues minority children face that begins at home, and not because of the injustices from 150 years ago. But still that does not excuse perpetuation of racist ideals in our society.
You cannot deny that the real root cause is primarily due to institutionalized racism. Google that term if you're not familiar with it, and you're likely to see some things you probably did not know about the persistence of racism in this country far more recent than 150 years ago. That's where the problem lies, in thinking that this was in the distant past. It was not. Our parents were children when segregation was legal in the country, and laws existed to keep black citizens from voting. Some of these things still manage to exist even after the Civil Rights Act was passed. These things are not "excuses" they are evidence used to identify why these inequalities persist.
It is very easy to say "So what if your ancestors have been marginalized for hundreds of years, were limited in work, education, political and human rights! That doesn't effect YOU. You need to rise above and work hard!" It's not that it is impossible for someone to do this, it is just that there have been hundreds of years of history working against them! It's something that those of use with "white privilege" can never truly understand. Of course we don't want to admit that this is the case. It's embarrassing! We should be past racism in this country. However, pretending that we already are does not make it so.
I apologize if I was not clearly reflecting my position. I do in fact believe that oppression still exists, and that there are hardships for minorities, but what I don't agree with is when it's used as an excuse to not do better. And there's a root cause amongst many of the issues minority children face that begins at home, and not because of the injustices from 150 years ago. But still that does not excuse perpetuation of racist ideals in our society.
I get what your are trying to say but just as the minorities shouldn't teach their children that they are different in the home you have the other side of the spectrum doing the exact same thing.
I completely understand that you worked hard through college and got promotions and every thing else you mentioned but I promise you that if you were to take two sets of people and give them the same amount of drive, ambition, and opportunity that this is where white priveledge kicks in. As the color of your skin is the first thing people see.
I mentioned this before that it has to do with education in the home like you said, but on both sides. A lot of people view minorities a certain way and just off of that will automatically judge them. Again, think of first impressions before someone is even opening their mouth.
I cannot tell you how many times in my work environment I hear that "I am not really black". Meaning I'm not their ideal black person from their first impression vs who I actually am.
I get what you are saying but you do realize you would have to change the first impressions of many people as well? And we are talking about generations of family education.
For example, since when is acknowledging the past making an excuse for a race not to do better? Where are you seeing this used as an excuse? What makes you think it is being done? Who told you that this "excuse" is why blacks are underpayed and don't hold high positions? Your parents?
How can you agree oppression exists then say "but the community is using it as an excuse not to do better". Do you see how these two statements kind of negate each other?
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are. No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me. And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally. Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views. If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this. I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
This statement makes the people you associate with also sound uneducated. I'm 23 and from Ohio, yet I am aware, and have been since my early teenage years, that this has been viewed as a symbol of white supremacy under the guise of southern heritage. Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
I've stayed out of commenting in this post simply for the fact that everyone else has said what I'm thinking, just better. But this I 100% agree with. I grew up in Ohio as well and have always known what that flag has stood for. Claiming to live in the north does not absolve you from that knowledge or make the ignorance ok. OP, Stop making it sound like all northerners are oblivious and stupid.
---quote fail--- Just want to jump on the bandwagon here and say as someone who has lived in the northeast for 32 of my 35 years, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Definitely agree that OPs comments make her sound extremely uneducated.
So my phone was dead all day while I was running around just got back on here... I was simply trying to say that racism and prejudice happens to everyone, no matter what you are.
No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me.
And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally.
Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views.
If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this.
I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
This statement makes the people you associate with also sound uneducated. I'm 23 and from Ohio, yet I am aware, and have been since my early teenage years, that this has been viewed as a symbol of white supremacy under the guise of southern heritage.
Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
I've stayed out of commenting in this post simply for the fact that everyone else has said what I'm thinking, just better. But this I 100% agree with. I grew up in Ohio as well and have always known what that flag has stood for. Claiming to live in the north does not absolve you from that knowledge or make the ignorance ok. OP, Stop making it sound like all northerners are oblivious and stupid.
---quote fail---
Just want to jump on the bandwagon here and say as someone who has lived in the northeast for 32 of my 35 years, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Definitely agree that OPs comments make her sound extremely uneducated.
I've always lived in the SE but definitely never heard of anyone in other parts of the country not knowing what the flag has represented.
Side note: I find it really odd that SamanthaAshley820 doesn't see anything wrong with displaying the confederate flag, a flag that most of us agree is a symbol of racism and inequality, yet on another thread she is very pleased with the Supreme Court's ruling on marriage equality. Maybe it's just me but I feel like those two things are on the same wavelength.
@hacharles I never said we are past racism. If you tell someone they are disabled and will be treated disabled and they should get used to being worse off because they are forever disabled and generations have always been the victim of prejudice against disability, and people who have "non disabled privilege" will always win out, they what do you expect from that person? Or you could tell them that while others before have struggled being disabled and still do, but that disability does not define you, and you can do whatever you set your mind to an exceed expectations, even though you may struggle at times, you can control your ultimate path, I'd expect better results. That's not denying the past or present, but it's not facilitating a crutch either.
This touches on @parisiennemom 's point as well. Again, my experience, which may differ from yours, for a variety of reasons, has presented people who teach their children to hate for racist reasons, but it's not considered as egregious, as they have and their family members have experienced racism for years and years and years. And perpetuated the above mindset I've described. My point is to that it is a two way street (sin is sin essentially) and you can either teach differently and expect differently, or allow the stereotypes to continue because that's the unfortunate path your predecessors have had to endure.
@hacharles I never said we are past racism. If you tell someone they are disabled and will be treated disabled and they should get used to being worse off because they are forever disabled and generations have always been the victim of prejudice against disability, and people who have "non disabled privilege" will always win out, they what do you expect from that person? Or you could tell them that while others before have struggled being disabled and still do, but that disability does not define you, and you can do whatever you set your mind to an exceed expectations, even though you may struggle at times, you can control your ultimate path, I'd expect better results. That's not denying the past or present, but it's not facilitating a crutch either.
This touches on @parisiennemom 's point as well. Again, my experience, which may differ from yours, for a variety of reasons, has presented people who teach their children to hate for racist reasons, but it's not considered as egregious, as they have and their family members have experienced racism for years and years and years. And perpetuated the above mindset I've described. My point is to that it is a two way street (sin is sin essentially) and you can either teach differently and expect differently, or allow the stereotypes to continue because that's the unfortunate path your predecessors have had to endure.
Rest assured I was not directing my comment at you. Sorry if I used the quote function incorrectly
Re: Current Events
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
But that wasn't why it was brought up
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
I pointed out among other things that Obama was elected and re-elected by quite a majority of the popular vote. My point being that in reality many Americans do agree with him on issues.
When you are talking about presidential elections Obama had more of the popular vote by a larger percentage than Clinton or either bush. You can go further back and I didn't really see anything higher than that. I think In the context of presidential elections 51.1 and 53% of the popular vote is a pretty "big" win of there ever is one.
I really don't care and I didn't intend to bring up obamas popularity as you seem to be implying. I was responding to another poster who as I have already stated clarified her post further and wasn't referring to the president
No I have not been a victim of racism like many, many others have been. But my life hasn't been peachy perfect and I have been in situations where being white was a downfall for me.
And I wasn't implying that they're trying to ban it from everywhere, I was giving an example for both sides where the flag has been interpreted different ways by people that I know personally.
Up here in Michigan most people I know that I have spoken to about this don't view the flag as racist. I think a PP made a very, very valid point about where you're from is going to make a difference on your views.
If in the south (which it seems to be) a racial thing; and its going to help and not cause even more issues (because I can see this situation after all your points possibly being a lose-lose) then take it off the capitol grounds. I was under the assumption that yes, this very well could have been an issue for a good amount of time, but that it became a focus point since the shooting and that was the big "cause"(not the right word) for all of this.
I'm glad that this was able to stay adult and mature with little to no name calling and we all got to share our view points.
Just because you might have been called a honky or a cracker doesn't mean you have been racially oppressed.
Racial oppression is not getting into a certain school because they've already reached their "black quota" (yes that's a real thing) or not getting a job or even getting to an interview because your name sounded "too black" on an application.
Back when I was applying for college, my parents made enough to not be considered low income so short of academic excellence there were not a great deal of open opportunities to obtain scholarships and grants. My siblings actually moved out on their own prior to going to college so that the burden of paying didn't fall to our parents. But many could go on about responsible financial planning for them and that's fine, but they made due for us with what they had and that was it.
Don't think for one second that I didn't recognize that if was not listed as Caucasian, that I would have had a lot more opportunity because there's a push to "make up" for the sins of 150 years ago. Now I'm of Irish decent and I could potentially trace back to where my ancestors were enslaved, but I haven't seen any invitations to join the National Association for the Advancement of Irish People. That's not here or there though because I don't expect to receive particular treatment and allowances because of what happened so long ago.
No one ever thinks to consider reverse racism. How is black supremacy any less egregious than white supremacy. How is it any less horrendous when a black officer shoots a white person, or when a black offender victimizes a white person. If I was offered a scholarship or a job or a promotion somewhere for being white there would be cries of racism. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are white racists, but they aren't the only one. But no one wants to admit to the reverse because there's some demand that they have been oppressed in decades past and by gosh they want to hold on to that as long as possible.
How about everyone, no matter your clearly identifiable color, work hard, and do the right thing, and achieve success like that instead of depending on some entity to make up for suffering that they can in fact rise above. And that is broader than just race.
And while everyone is distracted about a piece of fabric that "represents" so much apparently, no one bothered to focus on congress' actions fast tracking the TPP and putting all taxpayers on the bottom of this deal.
How about we stop allowing ourselves to be race baited into the "them vs them" mentality, and be a unified country with goals that benefit everyone who wants to do better, not just get better.
Anyways. I'm not looking to change opinions but I think there's a better way too be forward then finger pointing and discussing personal entitlement issues.
Please educate yourself on a topic before starting a damn thread about it.
This a thousand times over!
I live "up here in Michigan" and have lived in the Midwest or west all my life and yet I know what it stands for.
Please stop trying to drum up drama and educate yourself.
I've stayed out of commenting in this post simply for the fact that everyone else has said what I'm thinking, just better. But this I 100% agree with. I grew up in Ohio as well and have always known what that flag has stood for. Claiming to live in the north does not absolve you from that knowledge or make the ignorance ok. OP, Stop making it sound like all northerners are oblivious and stupid.
Again I'm not saying there aren't racist people out there, and by all means we should make efforts to eliminate racism, but continuing to NOT treat ALL persons equally, despite their color, sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc is not going to solve the problem. That includes opportunities afforded to people based solely on the color of their skin, as opposed to merit, and not just removing symbols of hate, speech of hate, and the like.
Maybe you feel like you've benefited from your "white privilege" and that's your personal experience to deal with. I won't speak on that. But I can say that me, personally, I did not, so your generalization is just that, yours. I still find that term racist.
I have no words.
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
I'd actually like to know what you've accomplished in your life because of your "white privilege". Things that you were able to do only because of your skin color, and not based on skills, merit, or ability.
1. I do not have to talk to my children about how systemic racism impacts their daily lives if I choose not to do so
2. People are not surprised or congratulatory at that fact that I am articulate
3. If I were a bad driver, people would not blame it on my race, but merely on the fact that I have a vagina
4. I can buy bandaids that match my and my child's skin color
5. I am not closely monitored in stores
6. No one will ever call my husband or child a thug
7. I am never asked to speak to a particular subject on behalf of my entire race
To name a few...
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
Because you've never been followed around in a store you've achieved things that others can't??
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
Setting your children up to expect bias is not a productive way to do anything but expect the worst and feel like any shortcomings are potentially only because of their skin color...
Changing people's perceptions by being the best person you can be should be offensive...?
Tell me, how do I not understand?
But keep fighting the good fight!
ETA - white privilege exists. You can't just say it doesn't.
Married 9/28/13
DS born 11/12/15
EDD 8/13/18
Let's just agree to disagree, because I find it unnecessary to perpetuate racial undertones in life as it deflects from an individual's own responsibility and self accountability.
I'm sorry if you've not been able to feel accomplished in your merits and talents in life and that you're stuck with your "white privilege".
I never said it didn't exist either, I just don't agree that the things you've mentioned about it directly translates into my personal life and my experiences.
https://occupywallstreet.net/story/explaining-white-privilege-broke-white-person
And where I live and work, the race I'm going to guess you're referring to, is not the one I see discriminated against the most. So again, predisposing opinions are not always effective.
If believing that true equality for ALL people and not using the past as an excuse to not be a better HUMAN is having my head in the sand then so be it. I always enjoy the beach.
I am white skinned of Latina descent (my dad is from Cuba) so I feel like a have a bit of perspective from both side (although I'm not at all saying that I understand what it's like to be immediately judged by the color of your skin).
I grew up in the north and my family was constantly targeted with hate-mail by a neo-nazi group that existed nearby (an un-coincidentally flew a confederate flag).
I lived just outside of Detroit for 2 years and worked at a non-profit that ran programs in dozens of schools in the greater Detroit area. And if you can't see systemic racism at work there, you are blind.
The inner-city schools were 98% minorities. They had huge class sizes and zero resources. Our programs were often the only enrichment-type activities available to them. The uphill battle these kids had to fight to even graduate from high school, let alone go off to college and have successful work and family lives seemed almost insurmountable. Meanwhile, 10 miles up the road in many of the Detroit suburbs, the classes were 98% white and our programs were one of a myriad of opportunities the children had outside of the classroom. Class sizes were much smaller and the schools were full of parent volunteers and resources that virtually guaranteed the kids would get a great education and not fall through the cracks.
Systemic racism is not about you or about some black guy who might be racist towards whites. It's about the underlying opportunities and obstacles for different races that were set in motion a long time ago. The confederate flag flying over a state house certainly does not cause this, but is is a symbol of our government's permissiveness of these systems, and that is why it needs to go.
I get what your are trying to say but just as the minorities shouldn't teach their children that they are different in the home you have the other side of the spectrum doing the exact same thing.
I completely understand that you worked hard through college and got promotions and every thing else you mentioned but I promise you that if you were to take two sets of people and give them the same amount of drive, ambition, and opportunity that this is where white priveledge kicks in. As the color of your skin is the first thing people see.
I mentioned this before that it has to do with education in the home like you said, but on both sides. A lot of people view minorities a certain way and just off of that will automatically judge them. Again, think of first impressions before someone is even opening their mouth.
I cannot tell you how many times in my work environment I hear that "I am not really black". Meaning I'm not their ideal black person from their first impression vs who I actually am.
I get what you are saying but you do realize you would have to change the first impressions of many people as well? And we are talking about generations of family education.
For example, since when is acknowledging the past making an excuse for a race not to do better? Where are you seeing this used as an excuse? What makes you think it is being done? Who told you that this "excuse" is why blacks are underpayed and don't hold high positions? Your parents?
How can you agree oppression exists then say "but the community is using it as an excuse not to do better". Do you see how these two statements kind of negate each other?
I've stayed out of commenting in this post simply for the fact that everyone else has said what I'm thinking, just better. But this I 100% agree with. I grew up in Ohio as well and have always known what that flag has stood for. Claiming to live in the north does not absolve you from that knowledge or make the ignorance ok. OP, Stop making it sound like all northerners are oblivious and stupid.
---quote fail---
Just want to jump on the bandwagon here and say as someone who has lived in the northeast for 32 of my 35 years, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Definitely agree that OPs comments make her sound extremely uneducated.
I've always lived in the SE but definitely never heard of anyone in other parts of the country not knowing what the flag has represented.
Side note: I find it really odd that SamanthaAshley820 doesn't see anything wrong with displaying the confederate flag, a flag that most of us agree is a symbol of racism and inequality, yet on another thread she is very pleased with the Supreme Court's ruling on marriage equality.
Maybe it's just me but I feel like those two things are on the same wavelength.
Shrugs
This touches on @parisiennemom 's point as well. Again, my experience, which may differ from yours, for a variety of reasons, has presented people who teach their children to hate for racist reasons, but it's not considered as egregious, as they have and their family members have experienced racism for years and years and years. And perpetuated the above mindset I've described. My point is to that it is a two way street (sin is sin essentially) and you can either teach differently and expect differently, or allow the stereotypes to continue because that's the unfortunate path your predecessors have had to endure.