Okay @seelwood I get it. Have you had this debate with friends/family/coworkers?
With everything going on are they more so defending or second guessing? Do they look at the S.C shooter as a minorities viewpoint or an eye opener to what it means to the majority of people?
I 100% think it should be taken down - no questions about it but I know what you mean when something is taken and represented as something else.
For me it is the use of the "N" word in rap or in whatever else (the two are only the same in originating as something and being turned into something else) Personally I hate this word and think it should be banned too...
You are always going to have extremes, no matter what measures are exercised. Just as you think I've missed your point, you've missed mine. Take the flag down, but I still stand by the opinion that it will do little to remedy the greater issue. Sure if it makes people "feel" better, great. Our society, as a whole, is moving toward an overly politically correct mindset geared at making "everyone" feel comfortable and fuzzy, and "fat and happy", because now everyone accepts everything. Instead of personal accountability there is an overload of excuses. And again, if you want true human rights equality, the double standards must end.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
There is a massive difference between calling people derogatory names and and systemic racism. White people can absolutely be called derogatory names and harassed because of their skin color when they are the minority in an area. They are still not the subject of systemic racism which plagues our country. Neither experience is good, but only one affects the vast majority of the members of a particular race.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
I worked at a branch in my hometown fairly frequently (two full summers and some shifts picked up here and there) in which I was the minority. I was one of about three white people on staff at any given time.
I would never presume that the mild prejudice that I experienced as the community of that Y got to know me was ANYTHING like centuries of oppression that they've known and the prejudice that is still against them today.
I'm not saying that it wasn't awkward or hard, but I've been in your shoes on that one. So I will go there.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
I worked at a branch in my hometown fairly frequently (two full summers and some shifts picked up here and there) in which I was the minority. I was one of about three white people on staff at any given time.
I would never presume that the mild prejudice that I experienced as the community of that Y got to know me was ANYTHING like centuries of oppression that they've known and the prejudice that is still against them today.
I'm not saying that it wasn't awkward or hard, but I've been in your shoes on that one. So I will go there.
I actually read your comments that you posted and I'm on your side.. I just am extremely touchy when people go there.. I know how much it sucks.. Sorry if it came off like I'm against you or like I didn't believe you.. Because I know exactly how it feels to be in that position.. If it came off the wrong way to you I apologize..
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
I worked at a branch in my hometown fairly frequently (two full summers and some shifts picked up here and there) in which I was the minority. I was one of about three white people on staff at any given time.
I would never presume that the mild prejudice that I experienced as the community of that Y got to know me was ANYTHING like centuries of oppression that they've known and the prejudice that is still against them today.
I'm not saying that it wasn't awkward or hard, but I've been in your shoes on that one. So I will go there.
I actually read your comments that you posted and I'm on your side.. I just am extremely touchy when people go there.. I know how much it sucks.. Sorry if it came off like I'm against you or like I didn't believe you.. Because I know exactly how it feels to be in that position.. If it came off the wrong way to you I apologize..
No, it's fine. I just view it as not even an apples to oranges comparison. It's more like apples to sugar gliders. It's entirely different. While it sucks to be bullied and made fun of, it is not years upon years of racism.
parisiennemom I haven't debated it recently; but see a huge social media presence amongst friends. It seems as though instead of looking at the issue and realizing what the flag symbolizes to the majority they are holding strong on their viewpoint. Almost like they are completely skipping over what prompted the whole thing and just going right to " they want the flag taken down, that's my history". Instead of looking at why people want it removed and the fact that the SC shooter literally used it as a symbol of his hatred.
Now, Im not for the desecration of historical monuments as a previous poster mentioned is happening. But for example, the local Sons of the Confederacy group have a giant flag flying off the interstate close to my house..... Was a huge issue when it went up and died down for years ....and now it is the topic of the media and the mayor. It will probably be taken down, that is what friends seem to be focusing on.
I don't really think the taking down if the confederate flag is really about the silly flag itself. I think that it is politically motivated by a whack job whose opinion and point of view are not in line with the majority of America. Just because you have one doesn't mean you are a racist. We have to stop judging everyone by one persons actions. It has truly gotten ridiculous. Also why is it ok for the President to go on TV and say the N word but it's not ok for anyone else to say it. Double standard much?
No it's about the flag. A flag which has been a problem since long before President Obama was ever involved in government. There is no reason that flag should fly and to suggest it does not stand for hatred and racism is to ignore the reasons for the civil war as well as the way the flag has been misappropriated since.
If you mean President Obama when you refer to the whack job whose opinion isn't in line with the majority of America I'd suggest you need a new source for your information. You may not like the man and may disagree with him but the fact remains that he has been elected by a pretty nice majority twice.
The president used "the "n" word" in a podcast discussion and not on television. Not that it matters. I don't think you'd be saying this if you'd heard the discussion for yourself. You can find it in full online, it's not all that long. Just google Marc Maron podcast Obama and you should be able to find it. I like to inform myself before speaking out about things like that.
For factual accuracy's sake, Obama won the popular vote in 2012 with 51.1% of the vote. Calling that a "pretty nice majority" is a big stretch. That eeking it out.
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course. I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
I worked at a branch in my hometown fairly frequently (two full summers and some shifts picked up here and there) in which I was the minority. I was one of about three white people on staff at any given time.
I would never presume that the mild prejudice that I experienced as the community of that Y got to know me was ANYTHING like centuries of oppression that they've known and the prejudice that is still against them today.
I'm not saying that it wasn't awkward or hard, but I've been in your shoes on that one. So I will go there.
I actually read your comments that you posted and I'm on your side.. I just am extremely touchy when people go there.. I know how much it sucks.. Sorry if it came off like I'm against you or like I didn't believe you.. Because I know exactly how it feels to be in that position.. If it came off the wrong way to you I apologize..
No, it's fine. I just view it as not even an apples to oranges comparison. It's more like apples to sugar gliders. It's entirely different. While it sucks to be bullied and made fun of, it is not years upon years of racism.
Have a picture of a sugar glider.
The racist stuff I just included into the bullying as a general thing.. It's not but I get really touchy when it comes to this topic.. And when I get upset and typing fast I generally just say what I have to say and if details get missed.. And I don't notice it.. they just get missed..
Redneck - What's wrong with redneck? Have you never watched Jeff Foxworthy standup? To those who say that the rednecks they know are racist folk they don't want to associate with. That's not a redneck, that's an uneducated hillbilly or just a racist. You call most people a redneck who live in a southern state, they're not going to be offended. Can't comment on how northerners feel about being called a redneck but it certainly isn't a derogatory term where I'm from
Unless you say "you dumb redneck". Thems fightin' words.
Moving on, I asked my husband last night, "How do you feel about the confederate flag?" He shrugged & said he didn't really have an opinion. So I asked, "What's your first thought of someone flying a confederate flag?" He replied, immediately, "Redneck."
Not all rednecks are racist and not all rednecks sport the confederate flag as home decor (or in the event of the young man who lives in my neighborhood, on a pole in the back of his jacked up truck), but I have to be honest WITH MY SOUTHERN ASS SELF, if I see a person walking around with that flag, my initial thought is going to be that they are racist. No one is prejudice free, as much as I try to be, and that is my flaw. I own it, because that's the only type of person I have EVER seen fly the flag.
And then people want to argue, "Well some members of the black community fly the flag!" And that automatically means you cannot be prejudiced against your own race?
The flag is a symbol of the civil war. The civil war was ABOUT SLAVERY, which is the truth, the myth came about that it was regarding states rights. That sounded better & is what most people believe. You know, why is it so bad to learn about history, the good AND bad? America and many other countries have a dark past regarding slavery and glossing over it. Forgetting history is how history repeats itself. Yes, a fledgling country had slaves. Yes, it went to war on itself over slavery. No, the north was not racism free.
The confederate flag was a flag of war. Then it was a flag of "Fine, I'll do what you want BUT here is my big finger to you." It did symbolize independence (to have slaves if they want, mind you) for a long time. People forgot or ignored the slavery bit and used it as a "keep the government out of my home" symbol. Which is not what it meant. Then racist KKK & white supremacists starting to use it. They made the confederate flag uglier, darker & abusive.
I heard about Ben Affleck trying to hide the fact his ancestors were slave owners. WHY? It's history. Just because your ancestors did it doesn't mean anyone thinks that you're going to try and start a revolution. It's part of our past, we should learn from it, remember it, and honor it enough that we may NEVER go back to it again.
I hadn't fully decided my stance on the flag until right now. Take it down. Put it in a museum. Let everyone learn from the mistakes of other human beings and move forward.
And may the Texas flag fly proudly over all states JKing.
I will refrain from commenting on "white privilege".
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
The original goal was of the war was not free slaves. Frankly Lincoln along with the rest of the country never imagined the war would be as long and devastating as it was. They honestly thought it would be over rather quickly. Lincoln never wanted to punish the south, he was very vocal about that. The over all goal for Lincoln was always a unified union. He ended slavery, 1. Because he felt it was approoiaye, 2. To hasten the end of the war as the south was already weakening.
One of the biggest catalyst to the war was determining whether newly admitted states would be slave states or not. Slave states were becoming out numbered by non slave states, causing unequal representation in Congress. Were there multiple issues the contributed to the war,yes; but fldont lessen the role slavery truly played in our history.
I will leave this here @Everycol0rhttps://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/849066
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
If you read the reasons for succession written by the president and vice president of the confederacy you will see it is 100% because the south wanted to continue slavery. Lincoln did not free the slaves until part way through the war. In either case, slavery was a wrong that needed to be abolished.
@pink*sheep
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course.
I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
The original goal was of the war was not free slaves. Frankly Lincoln along with the rest of the country never imagined the war would be as long and devastating as it was. They honestly thought it would be over rather quickly. Lincoln never wanted to punish the south, he was very vocal about that. The over all goal for Lincoln was always a unified union. He ended slavery, 1. Because he felt it was approoiaye, 2. To hasten the end of the war as the south was already weakening.
One of the biggest catalyst to the war was determining whether newly admitted states would be slave states or not. Slave states were becoming out numbered by non slave states, causing unequal representation in Congress. Were there multiple issues the contributed to the war,yes; but fldont lessen the role slavery truly played in our history.
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course. I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
The war may have been to reunify the states, and the Southern states may have seceded over "state rights", but ultimately the war was about slavery. There would not have been Northern/Southern tension without slavery. The states seceded because Lincoln was elected, and they thought he would end slavery, or at the very least, not allow slavery to spread. Everything in the Civil War happened because of slavery. If you don't have slavery in the United States from the beginning, the Civil War never happens. Simple as that.
Lincoln did ultimately want to free the slaves, but he wasn't going to do so at the expense of the country or if it was not politically viable. I'm no historian, so I'm no expert, but I have read a 800+ page history of the Civil War, with a broad focus on the political parts in play. It's a VERY complicated situation, but no matter how much you try to explain it, the war comes down to slavery.
So that's why that flag = slavery in so many minds. (By the by, I hate it when it is called the Confederate Flag. It wasn't. It's the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia). The flag will never be banned based on the first amendment, BUT, for it to be flown in front of a government building in this country is completely inappropriate. If people want to fly that flag individually, they should go for it, but they'll likely be judged, and rightfully so.
Redneck - What's wrong with redneck? Have you never watched Jeff Foxworthy standup? To those who say that the rednecks they know are racist folk they don't want to associate with. That's not a redneck, that's an uneducated hillbilly or just a racist. You call most people a redneck who live in a southern state, they're not going to be offended. Can't comment on how northerners feel about being called a redneck but it certainly isn't a derogatory term where I'm from
Unless you say "you dumb redneck". Thems fightin' words.
Moving on, I asked my husband last night, "How do you feel about the confederate flag?" He shrugged & said he didn't really have an opinion. So I asked, "What's your first thought of someone flying a confederate flag?" He replied, immediately, "Redneck."
Not all rednecks are racist and not all rednecks sport the confederate flag as home decor (or in the event of the young man who lives in my neighborhood, on a pole in the back of his jacked up truck), but I have to be honest WITH MY SOUTHERN ASS SELF, if I see a person walking around with that flag, my initial thought is going to be that they are racist. No one is prejudice free, as much as I try to be, and that is my flaw. I own it, because that's the only type of person I have EVER seen fly the flag.
And then people want to argue, "Well some members of the black community fly the flag!" And that automatically means you cannot be prejudiced against your own race?
The flag is a symbol of the civil war. The civil war was ABOUT SLAVERY, which is the truth, the myth came about that it was regarding states rights. That sounded better & is what most people believe. You know, why is it so bad to learn about history, the good AND bad? America and many other countries have a dark past regarding slavery and glossing over it. Forgetting history is how history repeats itself. Yes, a fledgling country had slaves. Yes, it went to war on itself over slavery. No, the north was not racism free.
The confederate flag was a flag of war. Then it was a flag of "Fine, I'll do what you want BUT here is my big finger to you." It did symbolize independence (to have slaves if they want, mind you) for a long time. People forgot or ignored the slavery bit and used it as a "keep the government out of my home" symbol. Which is not what it meant. Then racist KKK & white supremacists starting to use it. They made the confederate flag uglier, darker & abusive.
I heard about Ben Affleck trying to hide the fact his ancestors were slave owners. WHY? It's history. Just because your ancestors did it doesn't mean anyone thinks that you're going to try and start a revolution. It's part of our past, we should learn from it, remember it, and honor it enough that we may NEVER go back to it again.
I hadn't fully decided my stance on the flag until right now. Take it down. Put it in a museum. Let everyone learn from the mistakes of other human beings and move forward.
And may the Texas flag fly proudly over all states JKing.
I will refrain from commenting on "white privilege".
I guess it depends where you are from. In my area, redneck is offensive. I don't use the term, however I am not offended by it, but if you look in the dictionary it states it is often used as a derogatory term. (Where I live a redneck refers to "poor white trash"). Once again, I guess it depends on where you are from.
Okay, so I finished this thread. A few things.
Redneck - What's wrong with redneck? Have you never watched Jeff Foxworthy standup? To those who say that the rednecks they know are racist folk they don't want to associate with. That's not a redneck, that's an uneducated hillbilly or just a racist. You call most people a redneck who live in a southern state, they're not going to be offended. Can't comment on how northerners feel about being called a redneck but it certainly isn't a derogatory term where I'm from
Unless you say "you dumb redneck". Thems fightin' words.
Moving on, I asked my husband last night, "How do you feel about the confederate flag?" He shrugged & said he didn't really have an opinion. So I asked, "What's your first thought of someone flying a confederate flag?" He replied, immediately, "Redneck."
Not all rednecks are racist and not all rednecks sport the confederate flag as home decor (or in the event of the young man who lives in my neighborhood, on a pole in the back of his jacked up truck), but I have to be honest WITH MY SOUTHERN ASS SELF, if I see a person walking around with that flag, my initial thought is going to be that they are racist. No one is prejudice free, as much as I try to be, and that is my flaw. I own it, because that's the only type of person I have EVER seen fly the flag.
And then people want to argue, "Well some members of the black community fly the flag!" And that automatically means you cannot be prejudiced against your own race?
The flag is a symbol of the civil war. The civil war was ABOUT SLAVERY, which is the truth, the myth came about that it was regarding states rights. That sounded better & is what most people believe. You know, why is it so bad to learn about history, the good AND bad? America and many other countries have a dark past regarding slavery and glossing over it. Forgetting history is how history repeats itself. Yes, a fledgling country had slaves. Yes, it went to war on itself over slavery. No, the north was not racism free.
The confederate flag was a flag of war. Then it was a flag of "Fine, I'll do what you want BUT here is my big finger to you." It did symbolize independence (to have slaves if they want, mind you) for a long time. People forgot or ignored the slavery bit and used it as a "keep the government out of my home" symbol. Which is not what it meant. Then racist KKK & white supremacists starting to use it. They made the confederate flag uglier, darker & abusive.
I heard about Ben Affleck trying to hide the fact his ancestors were slave owners. WHY? It's history. Just because your ancestors did it doesn't mean anyone thinks that you're going to try and start a revolution. It's part of our past, we should learn from it, remember it, and honor it enough that we may NEVER go back to it again.
I hadn't fully decided my stance on the flag until right now. Take it down. Put it in a museum. Let everyone learn from the mistakes of other human beings and move forward.
And may the Texas flag fly proudly over all states JKing.
I will refrain from commenting on "white privilege".
I guess it depends where you are from. In my area, redneck is offensive. I don't use the term, however I am not offended by it, but if you look in the dictionary it states it is often used as a derogatory term. (Where I live a redneck refers to "poor white trash"). Once again, I guess it depends on where you are from.
Um, yes I too have only ever known this to be an insulting term. I don't use it, but it is used disparagingly where I'm from. Well you learn something new everyday! I still won't say it, but that's just me.
If you "claim" to know what racism and discrimination feel like and are white, PLEASE CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE.
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
Are you seriously comparing getting bullied in high school to deep rooted racism? Maybe since you graduated in 2013 and not that far removed from high school you still think this is a big deal? Getting bullied in high school (which is something most people experience) is in no way like racism that minorities experience every day of their lives. I am not black, I am actually half Chinese and half Mexican although I can say I have never really experienced racism.
My best friend is black and I remember an experience in particular that really taught me what she goes through. I was visiting her in D.C. for her law school graduation. We went out to a bar and I looked around and I was the only non black person in the whole bar. I mentioned it to her afterwards, as an observation. She looked at me and said "That's how I always am. When I'm in Austin there is hardly any black people around, I'm always the only black person." And that's when I realized, how different of lives we live. Here I was like 26 years old, and that was my first experience like that when on the other hand she had many. On my FB which is full of southern conservatives the blatantly racist things people say and believe in are astonishing. Being a minority myself, it is quite sad to see.
I'm from Texas and sometimes ashamed to say so with some of the beliefs my state has. But I do believe this flag needs to come down and that it is long over due. A NRA board member from Texas actually had the audacity to say that the shooting was the Pastor's fault because he voted against concealed carry. Oh dear, there are so many things wrong with that statement it's terrible.
That Roof kid who contributed not a dang thing to our society thought he was better than those people in that church because of his skin color. It's crazy!
@pink*sheep
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course.
I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
_____ ETA: QUOTE FAIL.
The Anti-Muslim laws in France are horrible.
Racism is everywhere.
@thefithuntress
Which laws are you talking about? Better to be specific than just saying anti-Muslims. France has the highest Muslim population in Western Europe.
- The banning of hijabs in public schools.
- The banning of full-face veils preventing Muslim women from being able to work in public.
- The banning of Islamic street prayers.
And yes. France does have the one of the highest Muslim populations in the EU. But it doesn't mean people aren't racist and I wouldn't describe French racism as subtle. My point is that is isn't strictly an American issue.
I'm white and you know what? I am not a victim. Being called names versus being a victim of a systemic racism for years and years is far different. You can never understand what people who are not white go through or the things they have faced. Don't even try to compare
I don't really think the taking down if the confederate flag is really about the silly flag itself. I think that it is politically motivated by a whack job whose opinion and point of view are not in line with the majority of America. Just because you have one doesn't mean you are a racist. We have to stop judging everyone by one persons actions. It has truly gotten ridiculous. Also why is it ok for the President to go on TV and say the N word but it's not ok for anyone else to say it. Double standard much?
No it's about the flag. A flag which has been a problem since long before President Obama was ever involved in government. There is no reason that flag should fly and to suggest it does not stand for hatred and racism is to ignore the reasons for the civil war as well as the way the flag has been misappropriated since.
If you mean President Obama when you refer to the whack job whose opinion isn't in line with the majority of America I'd suggest you need a new source for your information. You may not like the man and may disagree with him but the fact remains that he has been elected by a pretty nice majority twice.
The president used "the "n" word" in a podcast discussion and not on television. Not that it matters. I don't think you'd be saying this if you'd heard the discussion for yourself. You can find it in full online, it's not all that long. Just google Marc Maron podcast Obama and you should be able to find it. I like to inform myself before speaking out about things like that.
For factual accuracy's sake, Obama won the popular vote in 2012 with 51.1% of the vote. Calling that a "pretty nice majority" is a big stretch. That eeking it out.
Nope. That's a pretty nice majority. Go ahead and check out the popular vote percentages that both bushes and Clinton won with. They are anywhere from just under 43% and just over 48%. 51.1 and over 53 in 2008 are pretty good numbers.
Eta-- not that this has anything to do with anything. Especially since the poster I responded to clarified that the "whack job" in question was not our President.
I'm white and you know what? I am not a victim. Being called names versus being a victim of a systemic racism for years and years is far different. You can never understand what people who are not white go through or the things they have faced. Don't even try to compare
Correct. And it's A-OKAY to acknowledge that white privilege exists (everywhere) instead of plugging our ears going "La la la, I'm colorbind." Well, the world isn't. And it's not fair. We need to tell that message to our children and encourage them to listen to these stories and evaluate them.
PS, I hate that damn flag.
PPS, I KNEW as soon as Obama said that word on WTF that everyone would stick to it and ignore everything else he said. For the record it was an amazing interview and I loved hearing his honesty. The fact that he still has faith in Americans is rewarding and makes me feel good.
Aaaand I'm done with this thread. This shit never ends well. I wish it did, but whatever.
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
The original goal was of the war was not free slaves. Frankly Lincoln along with the rest of the country never imagined the war would be as long and devastating as it was. They honestly thought it would be over rather quickly. Lincoln never wanted to punish the south, he was very vocal about that. The over all goal for Lincoln was always a unified union. He ended slavery, 1. Because he felt it was approoiaye, 2. To hasten the end of the war as the south was already weakening.
One of the biggest catalyst to the war was determining whether newly admitted states would be slave states or not. Slave states were becoming out numbered by non slave states, causing unequal representation in Congress. Were there multiple issues the contributed to the war,yes; but fldont lessen the role slavery truly played in our history.
Ok. Well I'll agree to disagree, as it would basically come down to an argument over the semantics of one issue not being THE issue. The result was necessary for human rights, and unfortunately 150 years later there's still a lot of debate in the equality arena. I still hold to my position of progressing forward knowing why we left the past behind, instead of using what happened in the past as an excuse, crutch, justification, etc. Personal accountability is huge: I know by not being racist or by supporting other values, I may not make a difference in the broader race and human issues in our world, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my views. In other words be the change, but be the change equally.
I feel like political games are being played with human issues when it's convenient for the politician and it accomplishes nothing but further division.
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course. I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
Which laws are you talking about? Better to be specific than just saying anti-Muslims. France has the highest Muslim population in Western Europe.
- The banning of hijabs in public schools.
- The banning of full-face veils preventing Muslim women from being able to work in public.
- The banning of Islamic street prayers.
And yes. France does have the one of the highest Muslim populations in the EU. But it doesn't mean people aren't racist and I wouldn't describe French racism as subtle. My point is that is isn't strictly an American issue.
@thefithuntress No I completely agree that racisms exists everywhere but wanted you to elaborate because your statement was generalizing.
When you say full face are you speaking of the hijab or niqab / burqa? France has banned the burqa as this only shows a woman's eyes, the rest of her face and body are completely covered. I have only seen the niqab to be mostly an issue with tourism. In regards to the niqab I do not feel a person face should be completely covered in public especially when visiting another country. For example, I'm going to Dubai in a couple of months and I would never walk around in short shorts and a tank top even though it will be over 100 degrees. I am not comparing a religion to what I might wear. But you are expected to adhere to the laws / adapt to the country you are living in.
Example: if I visited Iran I would be required to wear a headscarf regardless of my religion. If I was to visit Saudia Arabia I could not drive despite having a license. I wouldn't feel discriminated upon because of this.
Hijab in public schools I agree with- they are banning all "religious symbols" not just the hijab but I get how it can have a bigger effect on the muslin community.
Street prayers not being allowed in a public place, I don't consider it racist. There are mosques and the privacy of homes to practice religion.
When I say discreet I meant in terms of violence. You do not hear of hate crimes in France as much as you would in the U.S. However, minorities do not hold high ranking positions in ANY field and contribute to the majority of the countries unemployment rate.
And that is a great example of equality. Now don't get me wrong, I don't condone many of their cultural practices anyways, but it's refreshing to know that the country is united in equal expectations when it comes to certain things. In the states, it's been decided to change our rules to accommodate so as not to offend, but then certain things such as religious expression, are banned because they might offend. (This is deviating from the flag racism issue a little). Instead of treating every situation equally, it's a pick and choose.
I don't really think the taking down if the confederate flag is really about the silly flag itself. I think that it is politically motivated by a whack job whose opinion and point of view are not in line with the majority of America. Just because you have one doesn't mean you are a racist. We have to stop judging everyone by one persons actions. It has truly gotten ridiculous. Also why is it ok for the President to go on TV and say the N word but it's not ok for anyone else to say it. Double standard much?
I think that was his point. How racism is used so flippantly in this country
I'm a southerner. I love the south, and I'm proud of a lot of my southern heritage. However, for me, that doesn't include a pride for the confederate flag. In the town where I grew up there were 4 highschools. The one that was our big "rival" ("South" high school) had the rebel flag as its symbol, and a plantation owner for a mascot. For real. I think there was one African American family zoned for that school, and the vast majority were zoned for my school. So every time we had any kind of game, the guys from south would drive through town flying huge rebel flags. Especially paying attention to the black neighborhoods. And on multiple occasions they broke into our football stadium and spray painted the flag as well as any racial slur they could come up with (mostly the n word) all over the football field. I worked with a girl who went to that school and asked how the administration of their school was cool with all the racism and hate that was happening. Her response? "It's not racism! We're just proud of our school!"
Those of you who are saying that the flag is a matter of pride, and that it has nothing to do with race, you're wrong.
Those of you who say that this flag doesn't have a history of hate, and the man who shot 9 people in a church was a wack-job who misinterpreted the meaning of the flag, you're wrong.
I know my example is tiny and insignificant compared to shooting people. But the truth is that a lot of people in the south do hide behind the excuse of "pride" and continue to encourage racism and hate.
And that is a great example of equality. Now don't get me wrong, I don't condone many of their cultural practices anyways, but it's refreshing to know that the country is united in equal expectations when it comes to certain things. In the states, it's been decided to change our rules to accommodate so as not to offend, but then certain things such as religious expression, are banned because they might offend. (This is deviating from the flag racism issue a little). Instead of treating every situation equally, it's a pick and choose.
Are you responding to my post? I get what you mean but the difference with the U.S. Is that we have individual states + state laws. In concept for your idea to work, individual state laws couldn't exist.
I'm sure this has something to do with the difficulty in unifying on ideas
The confederacy lost the war, and it's about damn time we remove their symbol of white supremacy. It stands for everything that is wrong with this country.
See, I was going to say you lost the war, get over it. This sounds much better.
I'm from the great NW, my only addition to this thread is on rednecks.
A redneck in my area is: someone who likes to hunt, fish, drive a big ugly truck, and drink beer. And they typically have a confederate flag flying or displayed somewhere. Why? Because it symbolizes their freedom from the government that wants to put too many rules on them. They aren't all racist but some are, they flag though isn't their interpretation of that.
I'm my state the racist fly a nazi flag and are white supremacist (sp?) it's just sad. There is no denying what they stand for.
Re: Current Events
Have you had this debate with friends/family/coworkers?
With everything going on are they more so defending or second guessing? Do they look at the S.C shooter as a minorities viewpoint or an eye opener to what it means to the majority of people?
I 100% think it should be taken down - no questions about it but I know what you mean when something is taken and represented as something else.
For me it is the use of the "N" word in rap or in whatever else (the two are only the same in originating as something and being turned into something else) Personally I hate this word and think it should be banned too...
Let me piggy back on this and mention to you that my graduating class of 182 people in 2013 I'm not even joking there were 6 white students.. The end of the school year out of 3000 kids.. There were 13 white students in the whole school.. You wanna talk about being discriminated against and what to feel what it's like to be the target of racist comments.. Please go to into a classroom and by the only white kid in the room.. And tell me what that feels like.. Let me tell you right now I was bullied and picked on a lot.. I don't even want to hear how people "claim to know about what it feels like" GTFO you wanna know what it truly feels like go walk in my shoes for a day.. See what I saw everyday and then no teachers want to stop it.. Don't even go there...
This was in no way pointed at the person who wrot the original comment I piggy backed on in any way, shape, or form just to let everybody know..
Edit for spelling
I would never presume that the mild prejudice that I experienced as the community of that Y got to know me was ANYTHING like centuries of oppression that they've known and the prejudice that is still against them today.
I'm not saying that it wasn't awkward or hard, but I've been in your shoes on that one. So I will go there.
I actually read your comments that you posted and I'm on your side.. I just am extremely touchy when people go there.. I know how much it sucks.. Sorry if it came off like I'm against you or like I didn't believe you.. Because I know exactly how it feels to be in that position.. If it came off the wrong way to you I apologize..
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/849066
Slavery was an intrinsic right of the states and obviously part of the contention, but Lincoln freed the slaves to punish the south. It wasn't started because of it.
Have a picture of a sugar glider.
parisiennemom I haven't debated it recently; but see a huge social media presence amongst friends. It seems as though instead of looking at the issue and realizing what the flag symbolizes to the majority they are holding strong on their viewpoint. Almost like they are completely skipping over what prompted the whole thing and just going right to " they want the flag taken down, that's my history". Instead of looking at why people want it removed and the fact that the SC shooter literally used it as a symbol of his hatred.
Now, Im not for the desecration of historical monuments as a previous poster mentioned is happening. But for example, the local Sons of the Confederacy group have a giant flag flying off the interstate close to my house..... Was a huge issue when it went up and died down for years ....and now it is the topic of the media and the mayor. It will probably be taken down, that is what friends seem to be focusing on.
No I get your point just not your solutions behind it.
Regardless I think we both agree that racism is wrong and is long overdue to end.
It's a world problem too of course.
I live in France and for example if what happened in S.C was to happen here. There would be a huge uprising with the whole country, riots, schools closed etc. the country would literally go crazy.
However the racism here is in a diff way- most of the blacks here are North Africans and just overall they have a stereotyped opinion of minority races. Minorities in any type of high position is just very rare. It is hard to explain to be honest. I guess it's just more subtle.
The racist stuff I just included into the bullying as a general thing.. It's not but I get really touchy when it comes to this topic.. And when I get upset and typing fast I generally just say what I have to say and if details get missed.. And I don't notice it.. they just get missed..
Redneck - What's wrong with redneck? Have you never watched Jeff Foxworthy standup? To those who say that the rednecks they know are racist folk they don't want to associate with. That's not a redneck, that's an uneducated hillbilly or just a racist. You call most people a redneck who live in a southern state, they're not going to be offended. Can't comment on how northerners feel about being called a redneck but it certainly isn't a derogatory term where I'm from
Unless you say "you dumb redneck". Thems fightin' words.
Moving on, I asked my husband last night, "How do you feel about the confederate flag?" He shrugged & said he didn't really have an opinion. So I asked, "What's your first thought of someone flying a confederate flag?" He replied, immediately, "Redneck."
Not all rednecks are racist and not all rednecks sport the confederate flag as home decor (or in the event of the young man who lives in my neighborhood, on a pole in the back of his jacked up truck), but I have to be honest WITH MY SOUTHERN ASS SELF, if I see a person walking around with that flag, my initial thought is going to be that they are racist. No one is prejudice free, as much as I try to be, and that is my flaw. I own it, because that's the only type of person I have EVER seen fly the flag.
And then people want to argue, "Well some members of the black community fly the flag!" And that automatically means you cannot be prejudiced against your own race?
The flag is a symbol of the civil war. The civil war was ABOUT SLAVERY, which is the truth, the myth came about that it was regarding states rights. That sounded better & is what most people believe. You know, why is it so bad to learn about history, the good AND bad? America and many other countries have a dark past regarding slavery and glossing over it. Forgetting history is how history repeats itself. Yes, a fledgling country had slaves. Yes, it went to war on itself over slavery. No, the north was not racism free.
The confederate flag was a flag of war. Then it was a flag of "Fine, I'll do what you want BUT here is my big finger to you." It did symbolize independence (to have slaves if they want, mind you) for a long time. People forgot or ignored the slavery bit and used it as a "keep the government out of my home" symbol. Which is not what it meant. Then racist KKK & white supremacists starting to use it. They made the confederate flag uglier, darker & abusive.
I heard about Ben Affleck trying to hide the fact his ancestors were slave owners. WHY? It's history. Just because your ancestors did it doesn't mean anyone thinks that you're going to try and start a revolution. It's part of our past, we should learn from it, remember it, and honor it enough that we may NEVER go back to it again.
I hadn't fully decided my stance on the flag until right now. Take it down. Put it in a museum. Let everyone learn from the mistakes of other human beings and move forward.
And may the Texas flag fly proudly over all states
I will refrain from commenting on "white privilege".
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
DD: 10/17/13
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http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/396b04
Lincoln never wanted to punish the south, he was very vocal about that. The over all goal for Lincoln was always a unified union. He ended slavery, 1. Because he felt it was approoiaye, 2. To hasten the end of the war as the south was already weakening.
One of the biggest catalyst to the war was determining whether newly admitted states would be slave states or not. Slave states were becoming out numbered by non slave states, causing unequal representation in Congress.
Were there multiple issues the contributed to the war,yes; but fldont lessen the role slavery truly played in our history.
https://m.livescience.com/13673-civil-war-anniversary-myths.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/10/the-civil-war-s-dirty-secret-it-was-always-about-slavery.html
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7639988
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
DD: 10/17/13
TTC#2 Actively: 10/14, NTNP: 01/14
Left-Sided Hydrosalpinx (cause: genetic abnormality, TREATED 11/16)
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/396b04
@thefithuntress
Which laws are you talking about? Better to be specific than just saying anti-Muslims. France has the highest Muslim population in Western Europe.
I guess it depends where you are from. In my area, redneck is offensive. I don't use the term, however I am not offended by it, but if you look in the dictionary it states it is often used as a derogatory term. (Where I live a redneck refers to "poor white trash"). Once again, I guess it depends on where you are from.
LFAF February Siggy Challenge - "Favorite TV/Movie Couple"
DD: 10/17/13
TTC#2 Actively: 10/14, NTNP: 01/14
Left-Sided Hydrosalpinx (cause: genetic abnormality, TREATED 11/16)
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/396b04
Eta-- not that this has anything to do with anything. Especially since the poster I responded to clarified that the "whack job" in question was not our President.
Ok. Well I'll agree to disagree, as it would basically come down to an argument over the semantics of one issue not being THE issue. The result was necessary for human rights, and unfortunately 150 years later there's still a lot of debate in the equality arena. I still hold to my position of progressing forward knowing why we left the past behind, instead of using what happened in the past as an excuse, crutch, justification, etc. Personal accountability is huge: I know by not being racist or by supporting other values, I may not make a difference in the broader race and human issues in our world, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my views. In other words be the change, but be the change equally.
I feel like political games are being played with human issues when it's convenient for the politician and it accomplishes nothing but further division.
@thefithuntress
No I completely agree that racisms exists everywhere but wanted you to elaborate because your statement was generalizing.
When you say full face are you speaking of the hijab or niqab / burqa? France has banned the burqa as this only shows a woman's eyes, the rest of her face and body are completely covered. I have only seen the niqab to be mostly an issue with tourism. In regards to the niqab I do not feel a person face should be completely covered in public especially when visiting another country. For example, I'm going to Dubai in a couple of months and I would never walk around in short shorts and a tank top even though it will be over 100 degrees. I am not comparing a religion to what I might wear. But you are expected to adhere to the laws / adapt to the country you are living in.
Example: if I visited Iran I would be required to wear a headscarf regardless of my religion. If I was to visit Saudia Arabia I could not drive despite having a license. I wouldn't feel discriminated upon because of this.
Hijab in public schools I agree with- they are banning all "religious symbols" not just the hijab but I get how it can have a bigger effect on the muslin community.
Street prayers not being allowed in a public place, I don't consider it racist. There are mosques and the privacy of homes to practice religion.
When I say discreet I meant in terms of violence. You do not hear of hate crimes in France as much as you would in the U.S. However, minorities do not hold high ranking positions in ANY field and contribute to the majority of the countries unemployment rate.
I think that was his point. How racism is used so flippantly in this country
In the town where I grew up there were 4 highschools. The one that was our big "rival" ("South" high school) had the rebel flag as its symbol, and a plantation owner for a mascot. For real. I think there was one African American family zoned for that school, and the vast majority were zoned for my school. So every time we had any kind of game, the guys from south would drive through town flying huge rebel flags. Especially paying attention to the black neighborhoods. And on multiple occasions they broke into our football stadium and spray painted the flag as well as any racial slur they could come up with (mostly the n word) all over the football field.
I worked with a girl who went to that school and asked how the administration of their school was cool with all the racism and hate that was happening. Her response? "It's not racism! We're just proud of our school!"
Those of you who are saying that the flag is a matter of pride, and that it has nothing to do with race, you're wrong.
Those of you who say that this flag doesn't have a history of hate, and the man who shot 9 people in a church was a wack-job who misinterpreted the meaning of the flag, you're wrong.
I know my example is tiny and insignificant compared to shooting people. But the truth is that a lot of people in the south do hide behind the excuse of "pride" and continue to encourage racism and hate.
Are you responding to my post? I get what you mean but the difference with the U.S. Is that we have individual states + state laws. In concept for your idea to work, individual state laws couldn't exist.
I'm sure this has something to do with the difficulty in unifying on ideas
A redneck in my area is: someone who likes to hunt, fish, drive a big ugly truck, and drink beer. And they typically have a confederate flag flying or displayed somewhere. Why? Because it symbolizes their freedom from the government that wants to put too many rules on them. They aren't all racist but some are, they flag though isn't their interpretation of that.
I'm my state the racist fly a nazi flag and are white supremacist (sp?) it's just sad. There is no denying what they stand for.