I have no idea why someone could "love" this flag enough to keep it up knowing that it's so hurtful to so many people! I know some of you will say you don't love it, but then why the hell is so important to keep it flying? Really? Like explain this to me. I've yet to hear an argument that is good enough to justify it. It's the 21st century and some people are so backwards in their thinking. It really astonishes me when people try and defend this symbol of hate for so many people. I don't care if Amazon sells it and whatnot, but it has no place on governmental properties, period. It's a shame it took this act of terrorism to wake up America on this issue. I'm from LA, so I see them all the time. I promise you if you are flying a rebel flag in front of your house, you are a racist or you simply don't care if people think you are. I'll step off my soapbox now.
I'm quoting you to piggyback on your post (not debating what you've said).
In Germany it is illegal to display any nazi memorabilia or to even make nazi related jokes. I have spent quite some time in that country and they take very seriously what wrong occurred in their past and will do whatever it takes to prevent it from ever happening again.
All of their museums that we visited (which was a lot) own up to what happened - so while the memorabilia is historically relevant, they aren't flying the flag and using the excuse that its historical. Even in the BMW museum there is a solemn room admitting to the slave labor they employed during WWII.
I've never cried so much on a vacation, but I was so impressed by how the German government owns thier mistakes. We could learn a lot from them.
I agree completely. There are too many people who refuse to own up to the horrors of slavery. Someone argued with me the other day about the benevolent nature of some slave owners and how it was the "bad slave owners" that made it seem so awful.
Exactly. Whether you were a "good" to your slaves or bad.... you were still owning people. Ridiculous.
And everyone wants to say that the Civil War wasn't solely about slavery and maybe not but that was a pretty big deal just sayin. ETA "everyone" is a stretch... I apologize.
Regardless, war history piece or not, the flag was brought back to light by hate groups.
I'm quoting you to piggyback on your post (not debating what you've said).
In Germany it is illegal to display any nazi memorabilia or to even make nazi related jokes. I have spent quite some time in that country and they take very seriously what wrong occurred in their past and will do whatever it takes to prevent it from ever happening again.
All of their museums that we visited (which was a lot) own up to what happened - so while the memorabilia is historically relevant, they aren't flying the flag and using the excuse that its historical. Even in the BMW museum there is a solemn room admitting to the slave labor they employed during WWII.
I've never cried so much on a vacation, but I was so impressed by how the German government owns thier mistakes. We could learn a lot from them.
I agree completely. There are too many people who refuse to own up to the horrors of slavery. Someone argued with me the other day about the benevolent nature of some slave owners and how it was the "bad slave owners" that made it seem so awful.
.... Are you serious? Are people really "not all men-ing" slavery?
You know what, I'm sure not all slave masters were evil. From what I understand, some slave masters were actually freed slaves. Neither one of these tidbits makes slavery any less horrible.
.... Are you serious? Are people really "not all men-ing" slavery?
You know what, I'm sure not all slave masters were evil. From what I understand, some slave masters were actually freed slaves. Neither one of these tidbits makes slavery any less horrible.
Yes. This is the attitude of the people I grew up around. This is the attitude of if not many than a significant minority in the rural south. The "of course slavery was wrong, but. . ." or "segregation wasn't all bad for black people because. . " It's arguments like these that have made me absolutely intolerant of the "heritage not hate" line of reasoning. It's still hate, it's just typically expressed using genteel, discrete, coded language and actions now.
@jasbaby2 I would like to clarify the wack job I was referring to was the jerk who shot up the church full of innocent people. I have no issues with President Obama other than the fact that I think that those in positions of authority and respect should refrain from using terminology that folks find offensive. I do however find it offensive that you assumed I was talking about our President In disrespectful way I may not agree with everything he stands for but I do believe that he deserves my respect. Also I live in the north you only see confederate flags in bikers garages. Also the first time I heard there was even a discussion of the confederate flag being removed was after the shooting. That is at least on the news in my area. I think it is a great debate to have but I wish that it was something that had been talked about more nationally before the shooting happened. I have truly learned a lot from reading the responses of those who actually live or lived in a state where this happening. Also just because someone isn't as eloquent as you doesn't make them ignorant or uneducated and you shouldn't assume things like that.
If I interpreted your "whack job" comment incorrectly I apologize. I certainly didn't refer to you as uneducated or ignorant.
Based on your commentary on President Obama speaking "the "n" word" I have to assume you have not heard the exchange for yourself. Again I would suggest you do so. I make it a point not to develop strong feelings about a subject unless and until I know the facts. If that offends you I don't know what to tell you.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I'm saying that I have been called racial slurs, and have had nasty things said to me by people of other races. I literally grew up less than 5 miles away from Detroit. Shit happens. I've been alive for close to 24 years. I'm sure that you and everyone else has been in many different situations in 20 years.
Ask anyone in this area, if you try to go to the DHS office to get food assistance or anything the white person is almost always given benefits after the black person, even if said white person is homeless and does not have a BRAND NEW car. It's very common here.
I also must go back to, the flag did not cause the shooting; taking the flag down will not stop racism. Raising our children to love, and not hate and keeping our communities informed and educated can certainly help though. If the flag truly represents slavery and racism, someone will eventually come up with something else to symbolize those things. We need to treat the illness, not the symptoms.
The argument, "I've got black friends" does not make something not racist. Perhaps he is ignorant of what the flag stands for, but when it is explained it is a terrorist symbol that has been used almost exclusively to represent the superiority of white people over black people ignorance is absolved and a choice needs to be made. You can throw in with those who uphold a symbol of white superiority or not. At that point, if you choose to maintain that the Confederate flag is more important than repudiating a white power mentality then I absolutely deem you to be racist. I am not ashamed of my judgment. Some things deserve to be judged harshly and racism is one of them.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
You obviously have had your head in a hole then. I have lived in Indiana my entire life, and this far from the first I have heard this debate come up.
I don't feel it is inappropriate for the this flag to be flown on government buildings. The government should be neutral. The only flags flown on government property are thexpected official state and US flag. What benefit iso there to fly it. It is offensive to many, the government had no business flying it.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I don't think anyone on this thread specifically pointed out individuals that have the flag on their private property unless I missed something. Even if I don't agree with someone doing that, it's their property not mine. I whole heartedly do not believe that it should be on public grounds. It is unwelcoming and yes it is associated with hate therefore it is one of the distractions that keep us from moving forward.
I think where we all grew up is going to make a difference in what we imagine when we think of the confederate flag. Where I grew up, it's a country thing and country boys fly the flag with pride. I see it flying on flag poles in people's yards. I see it on their belt buckles, cell phone cases, t-shirts, what have you. It certainly symbolizes something else in other parts of the country though, and it is clearly extremely offensive to many people. Take it down, don't take it down, it doesn't really make much difference to me. Personally, I don't think taking it down is going to fix the underlying issue here, which is racism. If taking it down is what the areas of the country where the flag is an issue think needs to be done so we can move forward, then take it down. Like I said though, I really don't think it's going to fix the actual issue of racism. We as a people need to do that. It's sickening that in 2015 it's still an issue. Black, white, who cares? We're all Americans and it's time we start acting like it. We should be embarassed that this is still an issue in our country! Maybe we need to take a few lessons from other countries because they seem to be making far more progress than we are. Seriously though, if where it is offensive they honestly feel taking it down will help, just do it. Taking it down isn't going to hurt anyone but it flying obviously is.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
OK so don't take this the wrong way, but if you are from the north and concede to the likelihood of being misinformed over the issue and whether or not the flag has been a point of contention for other areas of the country, why post that you "know" what the flag and this issue means for others? It is a symbol of an ideology that stands to divide and discriminate. It is one thing to enjoy a good debate, but I personally wouldn't be so bold as to vehemently debate on a topic that I admittedly know little about. If someone is flying it and is "not a racist", they are clearly ignorant to what the flag represents. Just as I wouldn't excuse someone for ignorantly flying a Nazi flag, I wouldn't excuse someone for ignorantly flying a confederate flag.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
This argument is about the flag being flown in front of/in government buildings; not about what your ex or friends do. How is requiring this flag to be removed from government bulidings a "distraction from what is really happening"? What do you even mean by that statement?
I also must go back to, the flag did not cause the shooting; taking the flag down will not stop racism. Raising our children to love, and not hate and keeping our communities informed and educated can certainly help though. If the flag truly represents slavery and racism, someone will eventually come up with something else to symbolize those things. We need to treat the illness, not the symptoms.
While taking down a flag iwon't stop racism it is certainly is a step in the right direction. How can we promote love and not hate and then have that flag flying "proudly". That is contradictory. We are treating the illness. I'm surprised you're so blind to not see that.
Popping in from Canada with my two bits. The flag should be taken down for sure, though if someone still wants to use it on their own private property or tattoo it on themselves then fill your boots. I just think it should not be up in places where government is represented or in public areas ( like a park or something)
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I'm saying that I have been called racial slurs, and have had nasty things said to me by people of other races. I literally grew up less than 5 miles away from Detroit. Shit happens. I've been alive for close to 24 years. I'm sure that you and everyone else has been in many different situations in 20 years.
Ask anyone in this area, if you try to go to the DHS office to get food assistance or anything the white person is almost always given benefits after the black person, even if said white person is homeless and does not have a BRAND NEW car. It's very common here.
I fished mouthed this statement for a good five minutes. Please tell me you don't think that the racial slurs you have been called are even somewhat comparable to centuries of racism and oppression?
Every time you are called out on ANYTHING, you say you were a victim of bullying, abuse and now racism.
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I'm saying that I have been called racial slurs, and have had nasty things said to me by people of other races. I literally grew up less than 5 miles away from Detroit. Shit happens. I've been alive for close to 24 years. I'm sure that you and everyone else has been in many different situations in 20 years.
Ask anyone in this area, if you try to go to the DHS office to get food assistance or anything the white person is almost always given benefits after the black person, even if said white person is homeless and does not have a BRAND NEW car. It's very common here.
Stop that. You're going to open up that debate again and just no.
I will say this. Whether or not the flag is removed honestly makes no difference to me in the grand scheme. I understand the history behind the civil war, and everyone wants to hang their hat on the slavery aspect, when it was more than that. And whether you realize it or not, or even want to believe it, there is and always has been a skew to the historical significance of certain events as relayed in textbooks. What I'd like to know is, when is enough enough. Why is it ok to ban something offensive to one side, but then degrade those who find something else offensive. Not everyone is going to be pleased with everything ever! If you think that taking a flag down is going help in diminishing racism, I would beg to differ. Removing "symbols" does not teach tolerance. People teach tolerance. A symbol interpreted by you one way and interpreted by someone else in another is only clarified by that person's explanation. If you want to stop racism then stop identifying people by their color. If we are all equal then why do i have to hear on the news constantly how this white person did that to this black person or vice versa. Why do I have to tell you what race I am when I apply for a loan or for school? Slavery is not a white and black issue, it's a people issue. Past history can not be changed, that's why it's past. But people have to want to change to affect the future. That doesn't happen though. Stop identifying people's struggle in terms of color, but will that happen? No, then what is there to fall back on when a person doesn't succeed or fulfill their human potential. Stop perpetuating the double standard if you're for human equality. That should be the issue.
I'm having trouble following your thought process to be honest. I get your overall message but I do not understand the points before.
I know historical events are skewed but what point are you trying to make in relation to the topic? I don't want to assume so I thought I would ask...
Can you give an example of the banning/degrading of something offensive? It is a little to vague for me to follow what you're saying.
I think it is in some of the details that you negated that solve your people issue:
- taking a flag down does not diminish racism in its entirety but I hope you do realize this flag was a symbol for various white supremacy groups (not an interpretation of opinion, fact). I'm sure some people really do see it as an honor for the lost soldiers which is why it belongs in a history museum.
- identifying people by color and racism are two completely separate different things. Me being a black female is an identifier ( you can clearly see this) people thinking im inferior to them and hating me for it is racism. Color can't be erased. The day that people see all colors as equal solves your people issue- not getting rid of color.
- you hear white/black issues on the news is because the media knows this is what gets ratings, one. Aside from this it is because these type of issues still exist.
- people's struggles do exist whether it's in terms of race or sex ( speaking financially). You do realize a whole race/sex has had about a 200 year head start to provide for their generations to come? Women have been working on equal rights not just minorities. Imagine this as a race.
- human potential I def agree with. The biggest reason in my opinion for racism is education (inside the home and from all colors) and that I can say is a world problem not just the U.S.
I'm sorry but as a white person myself, I do not think we really can understand what being discriminated against based on race feels like. We can claim to all that we want, but I guarantee we just don't. You can go on and on about how you were discriminated against for being white, but it is NOT the same thing.
Sorry I skipped down for a comment because I have to go back to working...
The swastika(manji or gammadion cross or I'm sure many other names) was a sacred symbol in ancient cultures that the nazis took and made it represent hatred and genocide. It did not originally stand for hatred in fact it was a sign of good fortune. (A friend whose parents were native Alaskans had the symbol all over their house)
Whether or not the confederate flag was a symbol for an independent south it still at some point represented slavery and violence, and to a lot of people it still does.
To the roof guy that shot 9 people in a church the confederate flag represented hatred of a specific race. So did the Rhodesian and South African flag. Retiring the confederate flag to history seems like a great idea because it was a part of history, but flying it when something so tragic happened is a big ol slap in the face. Not because of what it originally stood for but because Roof used it to represent his hatred, as many people do... Even in the NW (not even close to supporting southern independence)
As someone who lives in a Southern state, and in an area where this is a major debate in light of recent events and large Confederate flags being flown; I can say this is far from a new and out of nowhere issue. This has been a point of tension for years and years. I personally grew up in a family where the flag was not a symbol of racism but heritage. Now.. with that being said as I got older, I began to understand there are many ways to be proud of your Southern heritage without it offending others. There is no denying that the flag is viewed by the majority as a symbol or racism.. period... There is no debating that, so I personally do not find an issue with taking it down. As other posts have stated, fly it personally but lets respect the fact that there is an effort to stand ground against racism.
Any good ole' boy ( not redneck, I personally do not like that term) can have pride in where he is from in other ways.
To piggy back on this topic, my biggest issue is the media in general. They take one aspect of an issue and exploit it to make the general public believe anything. I highly appreciate those posts that involve knowledge and research.
I have never seen a school history book that EQUALLY addresses ALL of the issues that the civil war was fought for.
They ban schools from allowing prayer, but OTHER religious holidays and activities are observed and encouraged. Also the ban on gay marriage. While I don't agree with it, the people pushing for the ban are being demonized because it's against their fundamental beliefs?? But you want to ban the American flag in a college setting and no one bats an eyelash??
Would there be an alarmist push to rid the country of symbols of black supremacy though?? That's where the inequality lies.
I didn't say color needed to be erased. Embracing all colors and sexes as equal is the point, but the whole "you've had a 200 year head start" perspective isn't going to help that. Now every white male has to be pushed aside for everyone else of different colors and sexes to "catch up". That's not equality.
For what it's worth I don't want to be hired or promoted or receive benefit because I'm a female and an affirmative action type quota needs to be filled.
Either you progress from the past or you hold on to it by using it as an excuse to be treated differently.
@seelwood I am someone that grew up in California. Can you tell me growing up how the confederate flag represented a sense of southern pride ( not being sassy genuinely want to know).
I mean was it just something that represented being southern? Fallen soldiers? What was it for you?
@parisiennemom , I take no offense in your question. A lot of folks feel it represents a way of life. To them they assimilate the flag with where they were brought up and how they live, forgetting a lot about its history. I personally do not wear it.
I know exactly what the flag stands for and I still thing they should take it down regardless.. The man who shoot 9 innocent people used it as a hateful remark and so do others.. At this point IDGAF what it means it NEEDS to be taken down.. There shouldn't even be a debate about this.. My brother had a sticker of the flag on his truck and after the shooting happened and they showed all those pictures of the man with the flag.. Walked out of work to get the sticker off.. He generally doesn't care what people think.. But he said that was too much and he didn't want to offend people with it..
I grew up right outside of Detroit and have actually been discriminated against because of my white skin. I also am from the northern part of the country. So I am sorry if I was misinformed and this has been a "local" issue for a while, I was simply under the impression that it has just begun to be such a huge issue because of the media coverage. It's not that I necessarily support the flag in any means because as a previous poster said it doesn't affect me. What I don't support is it becoming a distraction from what is really happening and stereotyping those who fly it as being racist. I had an ex (in high school) who had it tattooed on his arm and is racist. But I also have a great friend who flys one in his front yard who has many friends of all different races, and actually has a mixed child.
I'm saying that I have been called racial slurs, and have had nasty things said to me by people of other races. I literally grew up less than 5 miles away from Detroit. Shit happens. I've been alive for close to 24 years. I'm sure that you and everyone else has been in many different situations in 20 years.
Ask anyone in this area, if you try to go to the DHS office to get food assistance or anything the white person is almost always given benefits after the black person, even if said white person is homeless and does not have a BRAND NEW car. It's very common here.
I fished mouthed this statement for a good five minutes. Please tell me you don't think that the racial slurs you have been called are even somewhat comparable to centuries of racism and oppression?
@SamanthaAshley820 you have quite the rap sheet. Do you use excel to keep all your lies straight?
I have never seen a school history book that EQUALLY addresses ALL of the issues that the civil war was fought for.
They ban schools from allowing prayer, but OTHER religious holidays and activities are observed and encouraged. Also the ban on gay marriage. While I don't agree with it, the people pushing for the ban are being demonized because it's against their fundamental beliefs?? But you want to ban the American flag in a college setting and no one bats an eyelash??
Would there be an alarmist push to rid the country of symbols of black supremacy though?? That's where the inequality lies.
I didn't say color needed to be erased. Embracing all colors and sexes as equal is the point, but the whole "you've had a 200 year head start" perspective isn't going to help that. Now every white male has to be pushed aside for everyone else of different colors and sexes to "catch up". That's not equality.
For what it's worth I don't want to be hired or promoted or receive benefit because I'm a female and an affirmative action type quota needs to be filled.
Either you progress from the past or you hold on to it by using it as an excuse to be treated differently.
Okay, well in the sense you stated above of course all history books aren't recounting EVERYTHING equally- they aren't written by the same person for one- this should be obvious...
Other than that American history def has gaps for such a young country.
I didn't say that you did say color needed to be erased - you said we shouldn't be identified by color and I stated that being identified by color and racism are two different things.
You also said we should stop looking at the struggle of people of color- I just also told you that it is not possible as it exists- nothing more. If you want to talk about Affirmative action that is something completely separate than what was stated by you or myself in the beginning so please don't put words in my mouth.
"This 200 head start" is true- this is all that I'm saying- does that mean you don't have different extremes- people taking advantage of the system or people working hard but getting nowhere- of course there are - but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's my point....
To those who think they're being discriminated against for being white in terms of receiving state and government benefits because of the ladies at the office. You're aware they don't have any power to decide what you get or don't get. Your application goes to a central office where it is processed. You are approved or disapproved based on the information provided.
The confederacy lost the war, and it's about damn time we remove their symbol of white supremacy. It stands for everything that is wrong with this country.
I am against taking the Confederate flag down; it does not stand for slavery (although I can see why many people would believe that it does) it stands for how the southern states wanted to govern themselves and not be ruled by one federal government. That is also what the civil war was about. It was not over we want slaves and you don't. It was you're trying to make everyone follow one law and we don't like that. We don't want things to go back to how they were over in England.
It's also upsetting that all of this started over a shooting. I feel it's like if I wore a McDonalds uniform and killed a bunch of fat people everyone saying that McDonalds hates fat people and they support me killing fat people because they are fat.
*lurker*
As I have not read this entire thread, I'm sure (or very, very hopeful) this has been addressed. The civil war was 100% about slavery. The whole "states rights" come up after the fact. Do some research.
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Exactly. Whether you were a "good" to your slaves or bad.... you were still owning people. Ridiculous.
And everyone wants to say that the Civil War wasn't solely about slavery and maybe not but that was a pretty big deal just sayin. ETA "everyone" is a stretch... I apologize.
Regardless, war history piece or not, the flag was brought back to light by hate groups.
.... Are you serious? Are people really "not all men-ing" slavery?
You know what, I'm sure not all slave masters were evil. From what I understand, some slave masters were actually freed slaves. Neither one of these tidbits makes slavery any less horrible.
Based on your commentary on President Obama speaking "the "n" word" I have to assume you have not heard the exchange for yourself. Again I would suggest you do so. I make it a point not to develop strong feelings about a subject unless and until I know the facts. If that offends you I don't know what to tell you.
Ask anyone in this area, if you try to go to the DHS office to get food assistance or anything the white person is almost always given benefits after the black person, even if said white person is homeless and does not have a BRAND NEW car. It's very common here.
If the flag truly represents slavery and racism, someone will eventually come up with something else to symbolize those things.
We need to treat the illness, not the symptoms.
The argument, "I've got black friends" does not make something not racist. Perhaps he is ignorant of what the flag stands for, but when it is explained it is a terrorist symbol that has been used almost exclusively to represent the superiority of white people over black people ignorance is absolved and a choice needs to be made. You can throw in with those who uphold a symbol of white superiority or not. At that point, if you choose to maintain that the Confederate flag is more important than repudiating a white power mentality then I absolutely deem you to be racist. I am not ashamed of my judgment. Some things deserve to be judged harshly and racism is one of them.
I don't feel it is inappropriate for the this flag to be flown on government buildings. The government should be neutral. The only flags flown on government property are thexpected official state and US flag. What benefit iso there to fly it. It is offensive to many, the government had no business flying it.
@pink*sheep
I'm having trouble following your thought process to be honest. I get your overall message but I do not understand the points before.
I know historical events are skewed but what point are you trying to make in relation to the topic? I don't want to assume so I thought I would ask...
Can you give an example of the banning/degrading of something offensive? It is a little to vague for me to follow what you're saying.
I think it is in some of the details that you negated that solve your people issue:
- taking a flag down does not diminish racism in its entirety but I hope you do realize this flag was a symbol for various white supremacy groups (not an interpretation of opinion, fact). I'm sure some people really do see it as an honor for the lost soldiers which is why it belongs in a history museum.
- identifying people by color and racism are two completely separate different things. Me being a black female is an identifier ( you can clearly see this) people thinking im inferior to them and hating me for it is racism. Color can't be erased. The day that people see all colors as equal solves your people issue- not getting rid of color.
- you hear white/black issues on the news is because the media knows this is what gets ratings, one. Aside from this it is because these type of issues still exist.
- people's struggles do exist whether it's in terms of race or sex ( speaking financially). You do realize a whole race/sex has had about a 200 year head start to provide for their generations to come? Women have been working on equal rights not just minorities. Imagine this as a race.
- human potential I def agree with. The biggest reason in my opinion for racism is education (inside the home and from all colors) and that I can say is a world problem not just the U.S.
This is how our thinking should be centered. Not us versus them, but everyone as a whole.
@madbloom this is all I can think of when you say Canadian flag....lol or
We'd be more than happy to have you!
The swastika(manji or gammadion cross or I'm sure many other names) was a sacred symbol in ancient cultures that the nazis took and made it represent hatred and genocide. It did not originally stand for hatred in fact it was a sign of good fortune. (A friend whose parents were native Alaskans had the symbol all over their house)
Whether or not the confederate flag was a symbol for an independent south it still at some point represented slavery and violence, and to a lot of people it still does.
To the roof guy that shot 9 people in a church the confederate flag represented hatred of a specific race. So did the Rhodesian and South African flag. Retiring the confederate flag to history seems like a great idea because it was a part of history, but flying it when something so tragic happened is a big ol slap in the face. Not because of what it originally stood for but because Roof used it to represent his hatred, as many people do... Even in the NW (not even close to supporting southern independence)
As someone who lives in a Southern state, and in an area where this is a major debate in light of recent events and large Confederate flags being flown; I can say this is far from a new and out of nowhere issue. This has been a point of tension for years and years. I personally grew up in a family where the flag was not a symbol of racism but heritage. Now.. with that being said as I got older, I began to understand there are many ways to be proud of your Southern heritage without it offending others. There is no denying that the flag is viewed by the majority as a symbol or racism.. period... There is no debating that, so I personally do not find an issue with taking it down. As other posts have stated, fly it personally but lets respect the fact that there is an effort to stand ground against racism.
Any good ole' boy ( not redneck, I personally do not like that term) can have pride in where he is from in other ways.
To piggy back on this topic, my biggest issue is the media in general. They take one aspect of an issue and exploit it to make the general public believe anything. I highly appreciate those posts that involve knowledge and research.
They ban schools from allowing prayer, but OTHER religious holidays and activities are observed and encouraged. Also the ban on gay marriage. While I don't agree with it, the people pushing for the ban are being demonized because it's against their fundamental beliefs?? But you want to ban the American flag in a college setting and no one bats an eyelash??
Would there be an alarmist push to rid the country of symbols of black supremacy though?? That's where the inequality lies.
I didn't say color needed to be erased. Embracing all colors and sexes as equal is the point, but the whole "you've had a 200 year head start" perspective isn't going to help that. Now every white male has to be pushed aside for everyone else of different colors and sexes to "catch up". That's not equality.
For what it's worth I don't want to be hired or promoted or receive benefit because I'm a female and an affirmative action type quota needs to be filled.
Either you progress from the past or you hold on to it by using it as an excuse to be treated differently.
I mean was it just something that represented being southern? Fallen soldiers? What was it for you?
Okay, well in the sense you stated above of course all history books aren't recounting EVERYTHING equally- they aren't written by the same person for one- this should be obvious...
Other than that American history def has gaps for such a young country.
I didn't say that you did say color needed to be erased - you said we shouldn't be identified by color and I stated that being identified by color and racism are two different things.
You also said we should stop looking at the struggle of people of color- I just also told you that it is not possible as it exists- nothing more. If you want to talk about Affirmative action that is something completely separate than what was stated by you or myself in the beginning so please don't put words in my mouth.
"This 200 head start" is true- this is all that I'm saying- does that mean you don't have different extremes- people taking advantage of the system or people working hard but getting nowhere- of course there are - but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's my point....
As I have not read this entire thread, I'm sure (or very, very hopeful) this has been addressed. The civil war was 100% about slavery. The whole "states rights" come up after the fact. Do some research.
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Left-Sided Hydrosalpinx (cause: genetic abnormality, TREATED 11/16)
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