And the ego to say "accept the correction and move on.' I don't know why you think you are the moral arbiter of the bump 2nd tri but that's thinking quite highly of yourself. Some people have critical thinking skills and do know what they're saying and are not prejudicial jerks.
Call it what you want. I didn't say anything that wasn't fact, therefore I feel very confident saying what I said. It's true. You're just sick of seeing it around the boards but that's literally your problem. Pointing out a simple correction shouldn't turn into a whole debate, especially since it's based on (again) fact. You're projecting your own feelings on the matter because no one is being guilted or shamed. One sentence to correct the term completely doesn't qualify. You're really overreacting over nothing. And name calling is always "klassy", good job. =D>
Edited because I realize I got the context wrong. Not knowing the correct term doesn't make someone a prejudicial jerk. They just didn't know and didn't lurk around the boards to find out. Fine. There are many women around here who simply say "thanks for letting me know." Then there are the others who would rather argue the point because how dare someone correct them or they don't care to use the term correctly. There's a difference.
Your point is essentially, 'I know that I am right and you are wrong and the board would be more pleasant if everyone just accepted that.' Despite basically ignoring every comment I have made about the nuances and specifics of the transgendered community and why black and white views aren't always the best. You could have said, 'it seems like you're coming at this from a place where you care about the community but we've reached different viewpoints on how its important to support that community.' But instead you continue to try to just belittle my opinion and say that I'm overreacting...I could throw that back at you and ask why you are overreacting to me. I feel that conversations that actually delve into the issue are more constructive to promoting broad consciousness and awareness of the issue. And I feel that when people snidely correct people on a term without that context that you do more harm than good and it will turn people off, as you have turned me off despite essentially agreeing on the core issue of the importance of tolerance. I do not think I am projecting, I think the OP here was originally kind of piqued and have seen it across many threads. I am entitled to comment on it when I see it, you are entitled to disagree with my opinion.
I did not intend to call you a name, I apologize if the way I wrote that came off that way.
This argument would almost work if I was the one who corrected OP. I wasn't, therefore this is moot. In this specific situation, yes I'm right and so is everyone else who corrected the OP. You most certainly are projecting something when you accuse people of attacking others maliciously when that never happened. You most certainly are projecting when you say people are made to feel guilty or shamed off of a one sentence correction. None of that happened. The OP asked about the distinction, and that's it. You assume I'm being snide or egotistical and that's all well and good. Doesn't mean your assumption is correct. I just literally don't get why you're arguing with me over something that is agreed on by both parties. You just want to argue with me because you don't like my delivery, which isn't my problem.
Ok? You are right, I feel condescended to and criticized by your delivery. You clearly also don't like my delivery because you are arguing with me too?
The OP 'liked' my first couple of posts so I don't think I am misreading her pique, and her response to being corrected was to say that that was the term her doctor used which is why she used it which seemed defensive to me, as if she felt attacked. You say I am making assumptions, and perhaps I am, but you are too (about me if no one else). And I am responding to you because you engaged in the discussion. Is critiquing this issue with you somehow invalid because you were not the person who initiated the correction in this particular thread? Because I literally don't understand why you want to argue about whether or not we should be arguing. If people have two differing opinions on a message board...they go back and forth due to the nature of a message board.
I'm not bothered by your delivery. I'm bothered by the incorrect use of the words gender and sex.
Your point was invalid because you said my delivery is what's keeping OP from hearing my point. I wasn't the one who pointed it out so no, my delivery has nothing to do with OP.
Here's what bothered me:
1. Telling people the distinction between the two words doesn't matter.
2. Acting like no one should ever correct a pregnant woman.
3. Making up situations that never happened. (Especially this)
And that's why I engaged. When I say that I don't get why this is an argument, that's because essentially you agree with the facts. We're for the same thing......relatively. So really you were trying to be a WK because you didn't like the tone of the comments from the posters who corrected the OP. And because of that, you keep arguing against the facts when it's the tone that was the real issue. I don't get that at all.
Ok. I believe you have in fact misunderstood my issue (or straight up don't agree with it which is certainly your right)
My general argument is against a trend I have noticed across the boards of people doing this. And that the tone with which this correction is delivered frequently seems to not be received well. Not necessarily specifically when YOU delivery the message, just generally where I have seen it delivered. this thread included. My original post was not directed at you, you stepped in to defend the original corrector which is why I'm talking to you and not to that person. This is a subjective opinion, but it is what I think. Re: your general points:
1) You are saying I am arguing that the disctinction between the two words doesn't matter. I don't believe that the distinction matters in infancy or early childhood, so that is accurate. My secondary argument is that as people age, while there is a difference between the words, there is not as much of one as you believe there is. I think you are separating them completely when it is not that simple of an issue. The fact that there are blurred lines between gender and sex and that the terms are intertwined in a fundamental way is not controversial. I think there is a lot more nuance to the issue, and therefore that makes making the terminology the battle ground both ineffective and possibly missing the point. I also think that when people switch to 'I'm having a boy/girl' they are essentially making the exact same linguistic slight you see in the gender conversation, but that those are seen as innocent and understandable, which I think is unfair.I think we disagree here, which is fine, but I do not believe my opinion is prejudiced nor am I the only one to have it. So telling me over and over that this is a simple fact and I'm wrong came off as very dismissive. I have put a lot of thought into this, I have more than casual thoughts and opinions on the subject that have taken into account the experience and emotions of the trans population. That doesn't mean I am an expert, but engaging people in a thoughtful conversation when people are coming from a positive place (positive place in this context meaning supportive of the transgendered population or seeking deeper understanding) is better than being dismissive just because you have come to different conclusions.
2) People can correct pregnant women when they are wrong, obviously. I don't think they should correct them in ways that make the corrector seem superior, which is how I frequently read the corrections that are made on this issue. I also, due to the views I just said up in number 1, think this is a more complicated issue and therefore don't really see this as a correction but more an imposition of one person/group's beliefs on how best to be politically correct and sensitive in regards to a certain population. I don't see this particular distinction as black and white. Had the woman said, 'transgender people don't really exist' or 'transgendered people don't deserve respect' than I would say yes, correct away. Language, particularly around this subject, is confusing and difficult to navigate. I think trying to see where a person is coming from on the issue is more helpful than the standard issue, sex =/= gender one off that gets tossed off here.
3) I don't know what you're talking about. I responded to you, I didn't target you. My interpretation of how people respond to this question could be wrong but I'm not making things up.
I completely get that it's not a black and white issue. The thing is, differentiating between the two words helps the people who don't know at all start to get that the words aren't the same which hopefully leads to a bit more empathy about the matter in general. I know I'm not going to write tons of paragraphs to explain it for every single post so to keep it simple, sex=/= gender. If people need elaboration, that's fine.
Even if it doesn't apply to infants right now, it WILL become relevant eventually whether their gender aligns with their sex or not. And it can only help if the parent understands the distinction so they can apply it if/when needed as the child grows up.
It's just about spreading information and awareness, period. Whether it sticks or not isn't my concern, just that the information is there. People seem to get defensive over a simple sentence. That's fine. But I can promise you 100% that gender/sex corrections will never stop on the bump. Like never.
You keep throwing in your own feelings into the matter and creating issues where one didn't exist, hence my making up situations comment. Shaming, guilting, now superiority. I can't help you there. I can't help how people feel and since that's a personal thing, I take no responsibility for that. Seems like you took more offense than OP did while you argue on her behalf.
Separating feelings from opinions seems like a strange bar to hold people to. If you have a strong opinion about something you have feelings about it. The examples you cite that I have used (guilt, shame, superiority) were my continued attempts to articulate the fact that I don't think that the way you're communicating is effective because it can elicit those feelings in the other posters. You clearly stated that you don't care about that though so that's fine. I still don't think I'm making that up though since I believe your initial foray into this conversation bemoaned people who argue this point instead of letting it go. It's clearly not the first time it's offended people. I don't really understand why bother with correcting people if you don't even care if it sticks but whatever.
I don't expect my opinions to change the entire bump community, obviously. But maybe some people will read this thread and think a little more deeply about the subject, which would be a win.
I feel like closing your response with a dig at me acting like a 'white knight' instead of just a person contributing to this conversation is pretty indicative of how open you are to people attempting to have a real dialogue about it. A perfect example of the type of tone I was trying to articulate. I wasn't arguing on her behalf, I don't know her, I was arguing my own opinion, this was just a relevant thread to do so.
Separating feelings from opinions seems like a strange bar to hold people to. If you have a strong opinion about something you have feelings about it. The examples you cite that I have used (guilt, shame, superiority) were my continued attempts to articulate the fact that I don't think that the way you're communicating is effective because it can elicit those feelings in the other posters. You clearly stated that you don't care about that though so that's fine. I still don't think I'm making that up though since I believe your initial foray into this conversation bemoaned people who argue this point instead of letting it go. It's clearly not the first time it's offended people. I don't really understand why bother with correcting people if you don't even care if it sticks but whatever.
I don't expect my opinions to change the entire bump community, obviously. But maybe some people will read this thread and think a little more deeply about the subject, which would be a win.
I feel like closing your response with a dig at me acting like a 'white knight' instead of just a person contributing to this conversation is pretty indicative of how open you are to people attempting to have a real dialogue about it. A perfect example of the type of tone I was trying to articulate. I wasn't arguing on her behalf, I don't know her, I was arguing my own opinion, this was just a relevant thread to do so.
I like dialogue but I don't like arguing about feelings. I hear what you're saying regarding gender and sex but you're losing me because you keep bringing up how I make you feel. I just want to stick to the point. Feelings are subjective. You take shaming, guilting, and superiority from my comments while others don't. Fine. You don't like my delivery. It's been noted. We can move on.
I likened you to a WK because they have a tendency to focus on 'how' people comment on posts.
I notice that most times the OP deals pretty well with receiving the information. It's all the WKs that roll in afterward that are the issue.
Yes! It's like "I understand you used the incorrect term innocently and meant no harm but the correct word is sex rather than gender" and most OPs take it in stride but then a WK comes along creating drama where it isn't necessary. It's just so frustrating with the back and forth but @CatsAreShady is doing a great job articulating the importance of using proper terms.
I notice that most times the OP deals pretty well with receiving the information. It's all the WKs that roll in afterward that are the issue.
Yes! It's like "I understand you used the incorrect term innocently and meant no harm but the correct word is sex rather than gender" and most OPs take it in stride but then a WK comes along creating drama where it isn't necessary. It's just so frustrating with the back and forth but @CatsAreShady is doing a great job articulating the importance of using proper terms.
Thank you @Amstreagle :x even though I feel like we've been going in circles here lol. If this was just about gender and sex then this whole debate could've been over already but I'm not about to argue over the subjective opinion of someone's tone.
What? Ugh this ecapsulates the whole tone side of my point. I spend two days and countless words offering thoughts on not JUST tone but the complexities of the issue to have it reduced to people saying I'm a white knight to just wants to whine about how someone hurt my feelings. That is extremely reductionist.
@Amstreagle that is in fact not what I said at all. I would agree with you that that is a pretty stupid argument to make. Although if enough people told me that I might reconsider how I'm delivering my messages. Clearly you're not reading the actual debate but that just such a falsehood...
I felt like by the end at least @CatsAreShady was engaging in the discussion and attempting to understand what I'm saying. Coming in at the end to snark on someone that attempted to hold a reasoned and calm debate is, in the words of @CatsAreShady, really 'klassy'.
Separating feelings from opinions seems like a strange bar to hold people to. If you have a strong opinion about something you have feelings about it. The examples you cite that I have used (guilt, shame, superiority) were my continued attempts to articulate the fact that I don't think that the way you're communicating is effective because it can elicit those feelings in the other posters. You clearly stated that you don't care about that though so that's fine. I still don't think I'm making that up though since I believe your initial foray into this conversation bemoaned people who argue this point instead of letting it go. It's clearly not the first time it's offended people. I don't really understand why bother with correcting people if you don't even care if it sticks but whatever.
I don't expect my opinions to change the entire bump community, obviously. But maybe some people will read this thread and think a little more deeply about the subject, which would be a win.
I feel like closing your response with a dig at me acting like a 'white knight' instead of just a person contributing to this conversation is pretty indicative of how open you are to people attempting to have a real dialogue about it. A perfect example of the type of tone I was trying to articulate. I wasn't arguing on her behalf, I don't know her, I was arguing my own opinion, this was just a relevant thread to do so.
I like dialogue but I don't like arguing about feelings. I hear what you're saying regarding gender and sex but you're losing me because you keep bringing up how I make you feel. I just want to stick to the point. Feelings are subjective. You take shaming, guilting, and superiority from my comments while others don't. Fine. You don't like my delivery. It's been noted. We can move on.
I likened you to a WK because they have a tendency to focus on 'how' people comment on posts.
I didn't think this was going anywhere so I stepped away because at least it had seemed like there was some mutual respect happening finally but if the plan is to reduce everything I've said to this i don't think you understood what I was trying to say. Gender and sex isn't an easy objective black and white conversation (neither is language and how we use it). Humans have emotions that come through in varying ways in every thing we do. We spend our lives being taught to communicate effectively by society. I think effective communication needs to take in human emotion and, when a topic is complex, discourse around the topic needs to be complex too. I'm sorry if you felt my arguments are too soft and mushy for your personal debate style.
I actually attempted to think about what you said about why toy couldn't hear me and tried to change my wording to be more effective for you. Your version of respect for me is openly mocking me with your friends.
Separating feelings from opinions seems like a strange bar to hold people to. If you have a strong opinion about something you have feelings about it. The examples you cite that I have used (guilt, shame, superiority) were my continued attempts to articulate the fact that I don't think that the way you're communicating is effective because it can elicit those feelings in the other posters. You clearly stated that you don't care about that though so that's fine. I still don't think I'm making that up though since I believe your initial foray into this conversation bemoaned people who argue this point instead of letting it go. It's clearly not the first time it's offended people. I don't really understand why bother with correcting people if you don't even care if it sticks but whatever.
I don't expect my opinions to change the entire bump community, obviously. But maybe some people will read this thread and think a little more deeply about the subject, which would be a win.
I feel like closing your response with a dig at me acting like a 'white knight' instead of just a person contributing to this conversation is pretty indicative of how open you are to people attempting to have a real dialogue about it. A perfect example of the type of tone I was trying to articulate. I wasn't arguing on her behalf, I don't know her, I was arguing my own opinion, this was just a relevant thread to do so.
I like dialogue but I don't like arguing about feelings. I hear what you're saying regarding gender and sex but you're losing me because you keep bringing up how I make you feel. I just want to stick to the point. Feelings are subjective. You take shaming, guilting, and superiority from my comments while others don't. Fine. You don't like my delivery. It's been noted. We can move on.
I likened you to a WK because they have a tendency to focus on 'how' people comment on posts.
I didn't think this was going anywhere so I stepped away because at least it had seemed like there was some mutual respect happening finally but if the plan is to reduce everything I've said to this i don't think you understood what I was trying to say. Gender and sex isn't an easy objective black and white conversation (neither is language and how we use it). Humans have emotions that come through in varying ways in every thing we do. We spend our lives being taught to communicate effectively by society. I think effective communication needs to take in human emotion and, when a topic is complex, discourse around the topic needs to be complex too. I'm sorry if you felt my arguments are too soft and mushy for your personal debate style.
I actually attempted to think about what you said about why toy couldn't hear me and tried to change my wording to be more effective for you. Your version of respect for me is openly mocking me with your friends.
My version of respect for you is that I waited until the end for the snark. Normally I would have completely dismissed you as a WK. You got way more restraint from me than usual because I saw that you were putting much thought, however redundant, into what you were saying. That wasn't good enough for you but that's okay with me. I still think you're being somewhat of a WK, hence the gif.
When someone posts here that they are having a boy or a girl people say 'congratulations on your x!' They do not say, 'you cannot know for sure if it is a boy or a girl or if it will be confused and maybe lie somewhere in between because gender identity issues can arise.' But everyone DOES jump on people when they say gender instead of sex. I am very confused as to why this is because I don't see the distinction.
This is because gender identity issues are extremely complex and rarely fall on a black and white spectrum. For the vast majority of women, the result they get from their doctor while pregnant will be reflected in both the gentalia and the personality of the child they raise (with I would hope obvious notes that girls can like monster trucks and boys can like barbies and still feel like the girls and boys they identify as). And for a significant amount of transgendered people this distinction falls a bit flat as well I imgaine because they DO feel like the opposite gender and frequently take surgical steps to ensure their 'sex' (at least sexual organs since chromosomes cannot be altered) does match up with their self identified gender.
I don't know what you read into any of my posts that implied that I felt that the trans population's issues and feelings are not valid. I just do not understand how ensuring pregnant women don't slip up on a linguistic techincality is really advocating for trans awareness. Ensuring parents know that this is something their child can face and that it is a real thing that they should embrace and support is critical. But for the baby years, there's really no way to know, so parents proceed the only way they know how. I don't think parents should feel preemptively like they are prejudiced because they work with the information they have at hand until different information presents itself. Generally opposed to all versions of 'mommy shaming' which, personally, is how I read the constant correction of terms that were said innocently. I think its a way to say 'you're not as accepting of a mom as I am, better shape up!'
Obviously.
It is perfectly to fine to say, "I'm having a boy/I'm having a girl." That is your baby's SEX. Not gender.
Actually if you want to be technical, man/woman and boy/girl are GENDER words and have to do with socialization and performance of gender. Even the Genderbread diagram you posted has Man-ness / Woman-ness under Gender and Male/Female under Sex. The only words for the SEX of your baby are male or female. So technically when you announce boy or girl you are announcing the gender. Just sayin'.
Danigit stuck in the quote box and can't edit. My post starts at "Actually if you want to be technical.". Apologies.
Re: Found out the Gender!!!
Even if it doesn't apply to infants right now, it WILL become relevant eventually whether their gender aligns with their sex or not. And it can only help if the parent understands the distinction so they can apply it if/when needed as the child grows up.
It's just about spreading information and awareness, period. Whether it sticks or not isn't my concern, just that the information is there. People seem to get defensive over a simple sentence. That's fine. But I can promise you 100% that gender/sex corrections will never stop on the bump. Like never.
You keep throwing in your own feelings into the matter and creating issues where one didn't exist, hence my making up situations comment. Shaming, guilting, now superiority. I can't help you there. I can't help how people feel and since that's a personal thing, I take no responsibility for that. Seems like you took more offense than OP did while you argue on her behalf.
Ain't this the truth.
I don't expect my opinions to change the entire bump community, obviously. But maybe some people will read this thread and think a little more deeply about the subject, which would be a win.
I feel like closing your response with a dig at me acting like a 'white knight' instead of just a person contributing to this conversation is pretty indicative of how open you are to people attempting to have a real dialogue about it. A perfect example of the type of tone I was trying to articulate. I wasn't arguing on her behalf, I don't know her, I was arguing my own opinion, this was just a relevant thread to do so.
I likened you to a WK because they have a tendency to focus on 'how' people comment on posts.
What? Ugh this ecapsulates the whole tone side of my point. I spend two days and countless words offering thoughts on not JUST tone but the complexities of the issue to have it reduced to people saying I'm a white knight to just wants to whine about how someone hurt my feelings. That is extremely reductionist.
@Amstreagle that is in fact not what I said at all. I would agree with you that that is a pretty stupid argument to make. Although if enough people told me that I might reconsider how I'm delivering my messages. Clearly you're not reading the actual debate but that just such a falsehood...
I felt like by the end at least @CatsAreShady was engaging in the discussion and attempting to understand what I'm saying. Coming in at the end to snark on someone that attempted to hold a reasoned and calm debate is, in the words of @CatsAreShady, really 'klassy'.
I actually attempted to think about what you said about why toy couldn't hear me and tried to change my wording to be more effective for you. Your version of respect for me is openly mocking me with your friends.