Babywise (PDF)

TunieBee · July 2014

Is anyone following a parent-directed feeding/Babywise schedule? I've been doing it loosely and am so impressed with how well it's working! My baby is happy and well-fed and I feel like I have some control over our lives. I'd love to hear other's experiences with PDF.

mrscbrad · July 2014

I've wanted to but I wasn't sure at what age to start.

nunzchucks · July 2014

Yes. We have been doing PDF since day one. I'm hoping to drop a night time feed here in the next 3 weeks.

TunieBee · July 2014

MaddieRosie said:
Is anyone following a parent-directed feeding/Babywise schedule? I've been doing it loosely and am so impressed with how well it's working! My baby is happy and well-fed and I feel like I have some control over our lives. I'd love to hear other's experiences with PDF.

My LO is 2 weeks and we started about 4 days ago. I could set a clock by his feeding times. It's pretty amazing.

@LilNunz1‌ , How do you plan on going about dropping a feeding? Also, how many hours are your feeds during the day and at night? Daytime we're every 3 or 3:15 and nighttime every 4 hours. How old is your baby?

mrscbrad · July 2014

@MaddieRosie‌ you get 4 hours at night? How many ounces are feeding? I was under the impression I would need to wait until 4 weeks to start PDF. We've been working to make sure he gets full feeds and has a basic feed wake time sleep schedule. It's been fairly predictable within 20 minutes or so.

nunzchucks · July 2014

@MaddieRosie‌ we are 2.5-3 hrs during the day and then night is 4,3,2. According to baby wise, they should naturally drop the MOTN feeding around 7-10 weeks. I'm not doing anything to force it.

steprozz · July 2014

it's interesting you say that because when my LO was diagnosed with FTT we were put on a PDF schedule where he ate every 3 hours round the clock no matter what. when he was allowed to start going on demand at night he goes 4-3-3 and still every 3 during the day. it worked and he is gaining beautifully now. so I'm not sure that it causes FTT is accurate, for us it fixed it.

mattanda2011 · July 2014

I'm not even going to go into the FTT that has been associated with it, because as long as you use your brain that shouldn't be an issue.

We did babywise with DD and are doing it with this LO, although I feel like I have much less time to do it well with DS. We are doing 2.5-3 during the day and then when I am lucky we get a 4 hour at night. Are y'all doing a dreamfeed at this point?

I felt really good about last night, and then today I think we are in a growth spurt, so looks like we are back to feeding around the clock! I'm hoping he's like my DD who ate a ton during the day during growth spurts but the slept at night. One can wish!

TunieBee · July 2014

AmyG* said:
Parent directed feedingthat is more often than baby wants to be fed to increase weight gain is something medically ok.
Parent directed feeding based on the advice in what is in Babywise is what seems to get parents and babies into trouble. Especially the encouraging young babies to STTN before they are ready.
Babywise is not written by an expert, it isn't written by a dr, LC, midwife, or even someone with experience in baby care except for raising 2 kids. there is a dr whose name is on the book, but his name wasn't on the first edition, and the addition of his name doesn't coorespond with any content changes inside the book.
So like I said, be very careful. read up on it and make an informed decision.
Also be sure you read Ezzo's follow up books, esp the ones that endorse spanking and hitting of young babies exploring their worlds. it gives further indication that the writer does not understand child developmental stages and what is age appropriate.

Babywise IS actually co-authored by Bob Bucknam, who is a pediatrician and also happens to be a board certified OB-GYN.

We are able to go 4 hours at night (and baby wakes us, not the other way around) because he's a chunker! PDF may not work for all babies, but I'm fortunate enough to have a good eater on my hands. Per the LC, he gets about 3.5 oz each feeding. He's 21 oz over his birth weight at 14 days. So it works for us. I fully understand that PDF is not appropriate for all circumstances.

ETA: I am not following Babywise as a gospel. I am losely following the principles of PDF and the schedule really works well for us.

TunieBee · July 2014

mattanda2011 said:
I'm not even going to go into the FTT that has been associated with it, because as long as you use your brain that shouldn't be an issue.

We did babywise with DD and are doing it with this LO, although I feel like I have much less time to do it well with DS. We are doing 2.5-3 during the day and then when I am lucky we get a 4 hour at night. Are y'all doing a dreamfeed at this point?

I felt really good about last night, and then today I think we are in a growth spurt, so looks like we are back to feeding around the clock! I'm hoping he's like my DD who ate a ton during the day during growth spurts but the slept at night. One can wish!

I'm not doing a dream feed right now. We haven't had a growth spurt/cluster feed yet but when we do, we'll definitely feed the baby as he needs it. I'm definitely not rigid enough to follow the schedule in those circumstances. I'm also not about to let my 2 weeks old baby "cry it out". For daytime naps, I soothe him and then out him down before he's fully asleep. At night, he's able to go back down by himself after feeding.

TunieBee · July 2014

mrscbrad said:
@MaddieRosie‌ you get 4 hours at night? How many ounces are feeding? I was under the impression I would need to wait until 4 weeks to start PDF. We've been working to make sure he gets full feeds and has a basic feed wake time sleep schedule. It's been fairly predictable within 20 minutes or so.

Sorry about the multiple posts! I guess that this is more of what we're doing right now vs. strict "Babywise" but it's a good start!

TunieBee · July 2014

AmyG* said:

MaddieRosie said:

AmyG* said:
snip

Babywise IS actually co-authored by Bob Bucknam, who is a pediatrician and also happens to be a board certified OB-GYN.

We are able to go 4 hours at night (and baby wakes us, not the other way around) because he's a chunker! PDF may not work for all babies, but I'm fortunate enough to have a good eater on my hands. Per the LC, he gets about 3.5 oz each feeding. He's 21 oz over his birth weight at 14 days. So it works for us. I fully understand that PDF is not appropriate for all circumstances.

ETA: I am not following Babywise as a gospel. I am losely following the principles of PDF and the schedule really works well for us.

The key concepts of Babywise were written by Gary Ezzo and his wife in a publication called Preparation for Parenting: A Biblical Perspective. That book has been in print since at least 1987[Amazon has a 1987 edition for sale). The Ezzo's introduced their "parent directed feeding" phrase and all of it's key concepts in that book even before Dr. Bucknam graduated from med school and completed his residency.

In 1993 the book was released with a new title of Babywise and most of the religious quotes were removed in order to appeal to the general public. At this point Robert Bucknam wrote the forward to Babywise and was listed as coauthor. There is still speculation even after all these years how much of the book he actually wrote.

Interesting. Regardless, I think the general concepts are helpful and so far it's working for us. I don't believe in being rigid about anything though, and my baby's only two weeks old so we'll see what the future holds.

In the meantime, I'd still love to hear other's experiences with this type of PDF scheduling. I thought it would be nice to share successes and difficulties.

CJnKR2014 · July 2014

AmyG* said:

MaddieRosie said:

AmyG* said:
snip

Babywise IS actually co-authored by Bob Bucknam, who is a pediatrician and also happens to be a board certified OB-GYN.

We are able to go 4 hours at night (and baby wakes us, not the other way around) because he's a chunker! PDF may not work for all babies, but I'm fortunate enough to have a good eater on my hands. Per the LC, he gets about 3.5 oz each feeding. He's 21 oz over his birth weight at 14 days. So it works for us. I fully understand that PDF is not appropriate for all circumstances.

ETA: I am not following Babywise as a gospel. I am losely following the principles of PDF and the schedule really works well for us.

The key concepts of Babywise were written by Gary Ezzo and his wife in a publication called Preparation for Parenting: A Biblical Perspective. That book has been in print since at least 1987[Amazon has a 1987 edition for sale). The Ezzo's introduced their "parent directed feeding" phrase and all of it's key concepts in that book even before Dr. Bucknam graduated from med school and completed his residency.

In 1993 the book was released with a new title of Babywise and most of the religious quotes were removed in order to appeal to the general public. At this point Robert Bucknam wrote the forward to Babywise and was listed as coauthor. There is still speculation even after all these years how much of the book he actually wrote.

@AmyG*‌

curlylocks3 · July 2014

AmyG* said:
Parent directed feedingthat is more often than baby wants to be fed to increase weight gain is something medically ok.
Parent directed feeding based on the advice in what is in Babywise is what seems to get parents and babies into trouble. Especially the encouraging young babies to STTN before they are ready.
Babywise is not written by an expert, it isn't written by a dr, LC, midwife, or even someone with experience in baby care except for raising 2 kids. there is a dr whose name is on the book, but his name wasn't on the first edition, and the addition of his name doesn't coorespond with any content changes inside the book.
So like I said, be very careful. read up on it and make an informed decision.
Also be sure you read Ezzo's follow up books, esp the ones that endorse spanking and hitting of young babies exploring their worlds. it gives further indication that the writer does not understand child developmental stages and what is age appropriate.

I must have missed where you were a lactation consultant, doctor or midwife. My bad.

curlylocks3 · July 2014

Also, this isn't exactly the same thing but in the NICU babies are always on feeding schedules, starting at every 3 hours. Both mine got spaced to every 4 before discharge, but for different reasons. Both had feeding minimums and, in Hugsy's case, feeding was never really a huge issue. He was always meeting his minimums so they let him sleep a little longer and then woke him at 4 hours and he took a larger volume, after which he slept longer. Mumble, on the other hand, really struggled with meeting her minimums. Little miss just loved to sleep! Finally they switched her to every 3-4, and of course she slept until the 4 hour mark. When they woke her up she was able to meet her minimums!
So, all I can say is that in terms of spacing feedings to follow their cues, and obviously allow for some flexibility.

CJnKR2014 · July 2014

curlylocks3 said:

AmyG* said:
Parent directed feedingthat is more often than baby wants to be fed to increase weight gain is something medically ok.
Parent directed feeding based on the advice in what is in Babywise is what seems to get parents and babies into trouble. Especially the encouraging young babies to STTN before they are ready.
Babywise is not written by an expert, it isn't written by a dr, LC, midwife, or even someone with experience in baby care except for raising 2 kids. there is a dr whose name is on the book, but his name wasn't on the first edition, and the addition of his name doesn't coorespond with any content changes inside the book.
So like I said, be very careful. read up on it and make an informed decision.
Also be sure you read Ezzo's follow up books, esp the ones that endorse spanking and hitting of young babies exploring their worlds. it gives further indication that the writer does not understand child developmental stages and what is age appropriate.
I must have missed where you were a lactation consultant, doctor or midwife. My bad.

curlylocks3 · July 2014

@CJnKR2014‌ I need a hooded cape like that.

Unknown · July 2014

This content has been removed.

CJnKR2014 · July 2014

@AmyG*‌ or you could just not post at all....

stephpaez · July 2014

CJnKR2014 said:
@AmyG*‌ or you could just not post at all....

)

curlylocks3 · July 2014

@AmyG*‌ I don't care if you cite experts or not as your "advice" doesn't apply to me. But it's becoming clear that it's not being received well by many.

TunieBee · July 2014

If anyone is still interested in discussing the original topic, I'm all ears! Maybe we could do a weekly check-in? Thoughts?

nunzchucks · July 2014

I just knew this thread would bring out at least one hater. Everyone has a different parenting style. Some choose PDF. Maybe it doesn't work for you, but that doesn't mean it is wrong for us.

Have you even read Babywise @AmyG*‌? Please tell me how the key concepts of Babywise of encouraging baby to take a FULL feed at each feeding and making sure they wake every 4 hours overnight (until 5 weeks) is bad? In the book, they specifically say this is so mom's supply doesn't suffer! Anecdotally you know one Babywise mom who had FTT issues. How do you know it was related to PDF and not something else? There are many people with FTT issues who don't follow Babywise.

@MaddieRosie‌ We don't follow it as gospel either, I just like the feed, wake, sleep and full feeding concepts. No CIO here. We will tackle sleep training when it is appropriate.

nunzchucks · July 2014

Also, here is a nice comparison of AAP recommendations and BabyWise recommendations. They sure are far off
/sarcasm
https://www.gfi.org/java/pdf/AAP_BWise.pdf

steprozz · July 2014

I have never read the book, but it seems that since my child is on a PDF schedule from the hospital, I would be interested in what exactly this is. maybe I should get a copy? I'm intrigued.

mattanda2011 · July 2014

@wareagle1220‌

Babywise suggests not going more than 5-6 hours until 12 weeks I think specifically for milk supply. Once my DDf started sleeping from 8-630 I would pump at 1030 or 11 and then go to bed, and I would also pump in the morning. Both of these things keeps my supply up no issue. This was around 10 weeks I think. I highly suggest doing that if you want I keep supply up and it is a great way to build ah good freezer stash. This is also part of the reason babywise suggests the dreamfeed, to keep supply up as well as get mom the longest stretch of sleep. The dreamfeed never worked for us and it seemed to interrupt sleep and DD would always wake between 2-3 with or without a dreamfeed.

So try messing with the times of that and see if it works. Last night LO woke at 830 hungry (unusual) so I fed and decided I was going to bed and skipping the dreamfeed cause I was tired. He only woke up 30 minutes earlier than on the nights I do a dreamfeed. I will be trying this again tonight.

tbmadeamistake · July 2014

I jumping on board with this. Charlie does a lot of snack eating and I'm not confident I know what his hunger cry is. I'd love to get on a schedule so I can anticipate a bit more. I've done some online reading, but can Amy of you with a 6-7 week old give me a quick run down of your schedule right now? Thanks!

TunieBee · July 2014

Lilygrace48 said:
I jumping on board with this. Charlie does a lot of snack eating and I'm not confident I know what his hunger cry is. I'd love to get on a schedule so I can anticipate a bit more. I've done some online reading, but can Amy of you with a 6-7 week old give me a quick run down of your schedule right now? Thanks!

My LO is only two weeks, so I can't help you with a schedule. However, I would recommend ordering the book off Amazon. I basically skimmed the whole thing in a couple hours and will go back to reference it when the baby gets older and the schedule changes or if issues arise. It's VERY straightforward. Good luck!

mattanda2011 · July 2014

We are on a 2.5-3 hour scheudle.
Because I have a high energy DD who is 18 months old, I have basically woken LO in the morning to "start our day" from very early on. It's the only way it can manage to feed him, put him back down and be able to give DD full attention to get up in the morning and get us both fed breakfast (also affected by the fact that DH leaves for work before the sun)

So I wake LO at 630, then shoot for a 3 hours between feedings. Sometimes he will go 2.5, other times he will go a little over 3. So I feed around 6:30, 9:30, 12:30, 3:30, 6:30 after the 6:30pm feed this is "bedtime" and I will often nurse to sleep at this feeding. Babywise suggests a dreamfeed around 10-11, but I tend to do mine earlier just cause I want to get to bed earlier. The main idea is that you are feeding right before you go to bed to get yourself the longest stretch of sleeping while baby is sleeping. Some people are able to keep their babies mainly asleep during this feed, with keeping them swaddled and not changing diaper, but neither of my kids have ever eaten well if I don't un swaddle for this feed. Then we do whatever he does for MOTN feeds

HTH!

nunzchucks · July 2014

@Lilygrace48‌ I borrowed the book from the library before buying it to make sure I actually wanted it.
Jack is 6.5 weeks. We don't really have a set schedule, but he eats every 2.5-3 hrs during the day. I wake him from naps to not go more than 3 hrs. He eats, he has some wake/play time, then when I notice his sleep cues (yawn and fussing), he goes down for a nap.

tbmadeamistake · July 2014

When you guys were starting this, what did you do when lo fell asleep while nursing during the day? How do you keep them awake?

Savvy122 · July 2014

I'd like to start this with D but I can't figure out how. He wakes and eats, has awake time, then goes down for a nap... but the nap never lasts longer than 30-35 minutes, which puts us about 2 hours from the last feeding. Then he's awake and wants to "snack" or else he's impossible. And he's fussy from being tired because 30 minutes isn't a long enough nap. So I feel like he never really gets a good full feeding or nap throughout the day.

nunzchucks · July 2014

@Lilygrace48‌ I tickle his toes or use a cold wash cloth to keep him up to make sure he gets a full feeding. I also change his diaper mid feeding. If he's still asleep, I lay him on the play mat and he will usually wake up. He has one time in the afternoon where he has no wake time between nap and feeding. That's just his pattern.

nunzchucks · July 2014

@savvy112 Are you keeping LO awake to make sure they get a full feeding? We focused solely on that when starting this. The other stuff fell into place after that.

Katieluc106 · July 2014

I wake V up during the day 3 hours on the dot. But at night I let her sleep. Right now I have it so she gets her last bottle at 8pm and then she sleeps 9-330/400AM then she will have a bottle and sleep until 8/9 AM. She's 3 weeks tomorrow and has had this schedule/ routine since I got her home at 3 days old. It works for us

TunieBee · July 2014

LilNunz1 said:
@savvy112 Are you keeping LO awake to make sure they get a full feeding? We focused solely on that when starting this. The other stuff fell into place after that.

Yep. I agree with this. It's all about the full feeding. Definitely a middle-of-feeding diaper change is helpful.

readyornot14 · July 2014

I don't do baby wise, but try to follow EASY. From what I understand the difference is that with EASY you follows baby's eating schedule rather than waking them up for a feed.

The result seems to be the same for me: we usually have 3-4 hour strech for each feed during the day and 4 hour strech during the night. I'm not doing the dreamfeed yet until LO is 3 month adjusted as the doc told us she needs to eat every 4 hours.

I agree with PPs that the full feed is very important and I think this schedule works for our baby since she is bottle-fed.

Savvy122 · July 2014

LilNunz1 said:
@savvy112 Are you keeping LO awake to make sure they get a full feeding? We focused solely on that when starting this. The other stuff fell into place after that.

Oh yeah, he definitely gets a full feed first thing in the morning (and overnight too) - he never, ever falls asleep nursing. Then we do diaper change, awake time, etc. and as soon as I notice him yawning or fussing, I swaddle and rock him for his nap. But he always wakes up after 30 minutes, without fail. And wants to eat... but since it's only been 1.5-2 hours by that point, he's not super hungry so he only eats for 5 minutes or so. Then he's miserable until his next nap because he's tired. But when I put him down, again, he's up after 30 minutes. Rinse, repeat.

I guess the main problem is that he just won't nap. If he would sleep longer than 30 minutes, everything would work.

Lynnja616 · July 2014

I am just starting this with DS. He is def a grazer so we're working on the full feed concept and stretching to 3 hours between first. He's been doing great during the day, but at night- not so much. Working on it. Thankful for this thread to read how others are doing! If nothing else the success stories are inspirational.

mattanda2011 · July 2014

Savvy122 said:

LilNunz1 said:
@savvy112 Are you keeping LO awake to make sure they get a full feeding? We focused solely on that when starting this. The other stuff fell into place after that.
Oh yeah, he definitely gets a full feed first thing in the morning (and overnight too) - he never, ever falls asleep nursing. Then we do diaper change, awake time, etc. and as soon as I notice him yawning or fussing, I swaddle and rock him for his nap. But he always wakes up after 30 minutes, without fail. And wants to eat... but since it's only been 1.5-2 hours by that point, he's not super hungry so he only eats for 5 minutes or so. Then he's miserable until his next nap because he's tired. But when I put him down, again, he's up after 30 minutes. Rinse, repeat.

I guess the main problem is that he just won't nap. If he would sleep longer than 30 minutes, everything would work.

Are you sure that he is really waking up? Babies tend to have a sleep transition between 30-45 minutes, some babies even cry out during this time but they aren't completely awake. I would do anything you can to extend naps (rocking, swing, in the carrier) to get you closer to the 2.5-3 hours. My guess would be that after one short nap and then a snack feeding it sets up the rest of the day for snacking. If you know thay he only wants a snack, or only wants to eat cause he awake, I would just try to extend the nap.

Savvy122 · July 2014

mattanda2011 said:

SNIP
Are you sure that he is really waking up? Babies tend to have a sleep transition between 30-45 minutes, some babies even cry out during this time but they aren't completely awake. I would do anything you can to extend naps (rocking, swing, in the carrier) to get you closer to the 2.5-3 hours. My guess would be that after one short nap and then a snack feeding it sets up the rest of the day for snacking. If you know thay he only wants a snack, or only wants to eat cause he awake, I would just try to extend the nap.

Yeah, he's awake. I do almost always try to rock him back to sleep... it works maybe 50% of the time (and most of the time he wakes back up after another 10 minutes or so). I'm just very frustrated. I feel like I spend most of my day trying to get this kid to sleep!

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Babywise (PDF)

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