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Re: Duggars

  • How is that refreshing? It's wrong. They barely knew each other before marriage. They can't get divorced later. I dunno. I'm not Christian in any way shape or form. Maybe my heathen attitude towards dating and sex cloud that? I couldn't imagine getting married without spending some serious alone time with the person. Not having chaperoned dates as an ADULT. To have Daddy interview and approve before they can even court.

    Also, the work thing was discussed in an episode. Technically that is the only jobs besides being sally homemaker and child rearer they are allowed. This is why the 2 older girls were taking online courses for.
    I get what you are saying, but I (respectfully) don't necessarily agree. I was raised in a very conservative household, not specifically religious. While my parents (dad mostly) set different rules than the Duggars, they were still very strict: no dating until college, no job until senior year of college, no car until college (and then it was only for driving to class and home), no spend-the-nights until I was in HS, no curfew b/c I wasn't to be out at night, no sports b/c they would take away from homework time, etc. I understood the reasoning behind the rules, but it was still incredibly frustrating. I didn't push too hard against the rules, but I always held college graduation as my deliverance date when I could finally make my own choices. Even with a very restrictive upbringing, I feel like most everyone at some point gets to the place where they have to make the decisions for themselves. Josh and Anna chose not to kiss until they were married. Sure, the way they were raised is what encouraged them to wait, but they could have thrown abandon and their clothes to the wind and been at it like rabbits. In the end, whatever way a person is raised, I think it is up to the individual adult to choose his own actions.
                 

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    Amores0121shan417candlequeenSkeemer
  • Honestly, the reason I dislike the Duggars is due to their parenting methods as well as the complete and utter brainwashing they've done to those kids. Those kids have zero say in their lives. They cannot even date! Yet their Daddy gets to essentially sign his little contract for them to "court" and marry without so much as a kiss or hug before the wedding. The women cannot hold jobs or go to college besides becoming a doula or lay midwife. Then there is their parenting methods. They promote a book called "How to Raise Up a Child". This book tells you to stick a 6 month old baby on a blanket. If he moves or makes too much noise your supposed to hit it with a switch to train them to be quiet and do as their told. It's disgusting and wrong.
    Obviously the whole "How to Train a Child" thing is horrible, but I think the no dating thing is really refreshing and I really respect it. MIchelle and Anna Duggar have both worked at their family businesses, and the some of the older daughters are getting degrees online. 
    I just think that while the Duggars are a very extreme example, they are used to say that anything against mainstream secular values is brainwashing. 
    Just a few observations, and I just want to say first that I really don't know much of anything about them as I have never watched the show or anything.

    It seems much of the debate here seems to be about cultural differences. In some cultures, older siblings are expected to care for the younger ones far more than many American families. We have a Japanese family that ones here, and the younger one is 2/3, and the older is in 7th grade. From what we can tell, the older takes on a lot of responsibilities with the younger, probably more than many others would expect. But he also seems to be a very caring and loving brother. 

    The dating/courting/whatever thing. Some cultures the norm is arranged marriage. We cringe at that simply because we have a very individualistic society that is built upon everyone choosing for themselves. Whatever your opinion on arranged marriage, I think it is a much more complicated issue than what some may consider. There are people in arranged marriages that feel it is a good thing, and there is the extreme of other people doing it for the wrong reasons perhaps.

    But it doesn't even sound like the Duggars are doing arranged marriages. It sounds more like parents taking an active role in their children's courtship. Courtship, which can have a very different meaning and intent from just dating. I think it was that intent and meaning of courtship Hudson found refreshing.

    As far as family size, it's a matter of responsible parenthood. The parents are the only ones that can discern if they can responsibly raise more children. And that takes into account the financial, physical, emotional, spiritual, etc well being of the children. It irks me when people judge large families. Whic "large" nowadays is very different from the past. Around here, large is probably more than the 2/3 kids. 

    mrshudson618[Deleted User]Dreamingmommy4
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  • Honestly, it's horribly degrading. I have an issue with a lot of that. It takes away from personal freedoms and degrades women. I have a choice and say in my own life and rights. Those girls do not. They are expected to be homemaking baby machines completely dependent on their husbands. I have a huge issue with that. Also, children are children. They need to experience their childhood. Not turn into a caregiver as a child. If I want to teach my kids responsibility I'll get them a kitten or puppy. Not give them a sibling to raise. However, what do I know. I'm not Christian. I'm far from it.

    I don't have time to type much again, but many of these issues are more than Christian/religious issues. Other cultures do things differently. I don't think it's right for you to just up and say this and that is wrong.

    I don't have much to say about the homemaking baby machines as I have never watched the show.

    MagPie 1986
  • If it was truly a cultural thing I don't think I would care as much, but they are like this due to their cult. Which is where there is issue. It's like those Mormons a few years ago that got in trouble fir polygamy and marrying 15 and 16 year old girls. That was a norm for them, but we still knew it was wrong. Quiverful is no diffierent than that.
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  • Know what I DO believe in? Science.

    Full disclosure: I don't believe in or practice any form of organized religion. However, I do not agree with only teaching creationism and ignoring evolution. Creationism may be the parents' beliefs, but I do think that knowledge is power, and the best way a parent can empower their children is to teach them the skills that will serve them well in life. I think not teaching evolution is a disservice to one's children. You can practice and teach any religious values that fit your family, but you can also still teach the other, more mainstream-accepted view of the issue. 

    Teaching exclusively creationism was actually the first thing I learned about the Duggars that really put me off.






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    runningyogimamazaraceligonlovelainieYellowLily2013
  • They are Christian extremists. So I'm sorry if you feel lumped in. I have no issue with regular or even consrvative Christians. Just the extremists
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    MagPie 1986KimberlyR1002
  • 'I do not believe in divorce.'



    .... Do you know what I don't believe in? I don't believe in a woman being degraded every day of her life. I don't believe in a woman being beaten in front if her children. I don't believe in a woman being exposed to STDs because of her husband's continued infidelity. I don't believe in spousal rape. I don't believe in women being controlled through finances or worries about the safety of her children.



    Surprisingly, though, my little magical fairy world where every married person treats their spouse with more consideration than a piece of dog shit doesn't exist, so thank god that your 'disbelief' in divorce doesn't preclude someone from getting one.

    The legal contract called marriage an be dissolved by all means.
    The Christian and Catholic sacrament of marriage is a covenant that literally can not be broken. It can be annulled, which means that it can be proved that the marriage was never valid in the first place ( one of the parties was forced, or it can be proved that they never intended to honor their vows as they were already carrying on an affair, etc. ) Abuse is often enough for the latter. In cases where is is not, separation and legal divorce is always an opinion, but the sacramental marriage will still be intact and neither party will be free to enter into another sacramental marriage.
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    flummadiddle85[Deleted User]
  • 'I do not believe in divorce.'

    .... Do you know what I don't believe in? I don't believe in a woman being degraded every day of her life. I don't believe in a woman being beaten in front if her children. I don't believe in a woman being exposed to STDs because of her husband's continued infidelity. I don't believe in spousal rape. I don't believe in women being controlled through finances or worries about the safety of her children.

    Surprisingly, though, my little magical fairy world where every married person treats their spouse with more consideration than a piece of dog shit doesn't exist, so thank god that your 'disbelief' in divorce doesn't preclude someone from getting one.
    The legal contract called marriage an be dissolved by all means. The Christian and Catholic sacrament of marriage is a covenant that literally can not be broken. It can be annulled, which means that it can be proved that the marriage was never valid in the first place ( one of the parties was forced, or it can be proved that they never intended to honor their vows as they were already carrying on an affair, etc. ) Abuse is often enough for the latter. In cases where is is not, separation and legal divorce is always an opinion, but the sacramental marriage will still be intact and neither party will be free to enter into another sacramental marriage.

    Sounds brutal.

    Who has that joke in standup....marriage isn't forever. Divorce IS forever. Louis c.k.  Love him
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  • 'I do not believe in divorce.'



    .... Do you know what I don't believe in? I don't believe in a woman being degraded every day of her life. I don't believe in a woman being beaten in front if her children. I don't believe in a woman being exposed to STDs because of her husband's continued infidelity. I don't believe in spousal rape. I don't believe in women being controlled through finances or worries about the safety of her children.



    Surprisingly, though, my little magical fairy world where every married person treats their spouse with more consideration than a piece of dog shit doesn't exist, so thank god that your 'disbelief' in divorce doesn't preclude someone from getting one.

    The legal contract called marriage an be dissolved by all means.
    The Christian and Catholic sacrament of marriage is a covenant that literally can not be broken. It can be annulled, which means that it can be proved that the marriage was never valid in the first place ( one of the parties was forced, or it can be proved that they never intended to honor their vows as they were already carrying on an affair, etc. ) Abuse is often enough for the latter. In cases where is is not, separation and legal divorce is always an opinion, but the sacramental marriage will still be intact and neither party will be free to enter into another sacramental marriage.
    When a believer gets a divorce... Maybe they'll become a non believer.. Thus letting them get married again!

    There's always loop holes! ;)
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    Mandmeesh
  • shan417shan417
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    edited February 2014
    I haven't done any research on them either, but this interests me now.  I went to college, I work out of the home, I only dated one guy, I think waiting to have sex is part of the reason we have such a great relationship now (which I will share with my children, but I understand not everyone may feel this way about their relationship), I will teach my children that I believe in Creationism, but they will also learn about evolution in school.  I don't know how many children we will have, and we do use birth control.  I grew up pretty sheltered, and I always knew what my parents wanted me to do, but I made my own decisions.  So I guess my life is a mix of things they teach and don't.  And I am so very happy this way.  I think I would also be very happy to be a housewife and baby maker right now.

    So let me just throw this out there...What if the Duggar children are happy?  

    I don't know what I'm missing in my sex life because I've never done it with anyone but DH, but I am still very happy with it.  Just because there is more out there and other ways to do things doesn't mean you can't enjoy your current situation, or that you wouldn't choose some of those same situations even without a parent's influence.

    I'm just going to sit back with my popcorn now. ;)
    BoyOhBoysDreamingmommy4EssJayCee
  • 'I do not believe in divorce.'



    .... Do you know what I don't believe in? I don't believe in a woman being degraded every day of her life. I don't believe in a woman being beaten in front if her children. I don't believe in a woman being exposed to STDs because of her husband's continued infidelity. I don't believe in spousal rape. I don't believe in women being controlled through finances or worries about the safety of her children.



    Surprisingly, though, my little magical fairy world where every married person treats their spouse with more consideration than a piece of dog shit doesn't exist, so thank god that your 'disbelief' in divorce doesn't preclude someone from getting one.

    She's probably one of those people that say to women like me going through a divorce, you shouldn't have married him in the first place so it's your fault that though have to deal with these issues. Yes I've had somEone say that to me. My husband is a drug addict so I guess I just stay with and let him drain our bank account and abuse me in front of the children bc divorce is BAD

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  • edited February 2014
    It amazes me that there are people that can't really imagine how bad things can be for others. Whether they have just been sheltered or haven't had the opprotunity to see how difficult others lives can be.

    But it does bother me that they believe in blanket statements on divorce and abortion. Sure if you don't want to do it great. But others definitely need to have the freedom to make their own choices!

    Many of the people, like candlequeen, probably didn't go into her marriage thinking it would end in divorce. But through the circumstances, and for her children divorce was the right answer.

    Just because you have a good marriage and don't "believe" in divorce, that shouldn't be pushed on others and making them feel bad when their circumstances are different.

    End rant!

    Candlequeen, I hope all is going well for you. As well as it can. I pray for your family always!
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    runningyogimamacandlequeen[Deleted User]zaraceligon
  • I don't believe in divorce either BUT I also believe that there are times when it is absolutely necessary.  I had a Catholic priest tell me once that when you are being forced to chose between your marriage vows and your duty as a parent to protect your children then your duty to your children MUST come first.

    I have been divorced and had my marriage annulled by the Catholic Church and I still don't believe in divorce in the absence of abuse or other grave circumstances.  My parents are still married but living in two different states......and they are happy that way. That would not be true for many people, I know.

    My biggest objection to divorce is that so often people treat marriage lightly to where promises mean nothing to them. It's like they believe the vows should be worded "til I change my mind." Instead of "til death do us part."


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    flummadiddle85SkeemerDreamingmommy4
  • It amazes me that there are people that can't really imagine how bad things can be for others. Whether they have just been sheltered or haven't had the opprotunity to see how difficult others lives can be. But it does bother me that they believe in blanket statements on divorce and abortion. Sure if you don't want to do it great. But others definitely need to have the freedom to make their own choices! Many of the people, like candlequeen, probably didn't go into her marriage thinking it would end in divorce. But through the circumstances, and for her children divorce was the right answer. Just because you have a good marriage and don't "believe" in divorce, that shouldn't be pushed on others and making them feel bad when their circumstances are different. End rant! Candlequeen, I hope all is going well for you. As well as it can. I pray for your family always!

    I was not under the impression Hudson was taking away anyone's freedom to make their own choices. She explained her belief quite clearly, and the sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. It can however be proven to be null and void, not valid in the first place. Which she already stated reasons for as well.

    The Catholic Curch does not encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship or endanger her kids. The Church does many good works to support women's shelters, single moms, divorced people, etc. 

    Hudson never mentioned Candlequeen, and didn't spew any judgement. It seems unfair that you would make an assumption like that. Hudson simply stated her beliefs, and explained them. 

    I'm sure Hudson also knows: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. 

    MagPie 1986
  • This is getting funny

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    Mandmeesh
  • This is getting funny
    just NOW getting funny, @candlequeen? ;)
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  • edited February 2014
    I'm so glad we don't do sacramental marriages. We do a hand fasting. So if we get divorced we just do the ceremony to undo it. That is if I get married in my church. More than likely we won't as SO is athiest.

    I feel like religion should be there to uplift, give some moral fiber, and be a channel for faith. Not some doctrine that says you must do X, Y and Z or you will go to hell! That's probably why I'm not Lutheran anymore. It just seems so counter productive to try to fillyourself with love when there are so many rules that make it otherwise. Like why would God want his people to be depressed and unhappy all the time because they no longer in love with their spouse. Seems silly. If I was depressed and unhappy I would want God towant me to find that happiness .
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    freezorburnJEPES1348runningyogimama[Deleted User]
  • http://www.foryourmarriage.org/catholic-marriage/church-teachings/annulments/ An annulment doesn't mean the relationship never existed. And I was just trying to say that we are all sinners. No one has the right to judge anyone else. I was just trying to say that I don't believe Hudson, or myself, have been trying to push our beliefs or judge anyone. And fwiw, my family and in laws are all far from perfect. There is a history of drugs/addiction, divorce, abortion, children given up for adoption,, and probably a lot of other things. But everyone is here for a short time, and we all just try to make the best decisions we can given our situation. And hopefully everyone tries to discern what is moral and ethical. And I believe the same things Hudson listed, but that doesn't mean I push it on someone else. It doesn't mean I believe everyone else is going to hell. And it doesn't mean I love any of my family less. In a perfect world, there would be no need for divorce or annulments. But it 's far from a perfect world.

    Dreamingmommy4
  • NVandGZ said:
    It amazes me that there are people that can't really imagine how bad things can be for others. Whether they have just been sheltered or haven't had the opprotunity to see how difficult others lives can be. But it does bother me that they believe in blanket statements on divorce and abortion. Sure if you don't want to do it great. But others definitely need to have the freedom to make their own choices! Many of the people, like candlequeen, probably didn't go into her marriage thinking it would end in divorce. But through the circumstances, and for her children divorce was the right answer. Just because you have a good marriage and don't "believe" in divorce, that shouldn't be pushed on others and making them feel bad when their circumstances are different. End rant! Candlequeen, I hope all is going well for you. As well as it can. I pray for your family always!

    I was not under the impression Hudson was taking away anyone's freedom to make their own choices. She explained her belief quite clearly, and the sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. It can however be proven to be null and void, not valid in the first place. Which she already stated reasons for as well.

    The Catholic Curch does not encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship or endanger her kids. The Church does many good works to support women's shelters, single moms, divorced people, etc. 

    Hudson never mentioned Candlequeen, and didn't spew any judgement. It seems unfair that you would make an assumption like that. Hudson simply stated her beliefs, and explained them. 

    I'm sure Hudson also knows: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. 
    What?? (to the bold)

    See that's the whole thing.. Many women probably still don't think that their whole marriage is "null and void". The marriage existed, the love existed. And then things changed. To say that the marriage had to be "null and void" really hurts women and takes away part of their life. It comes back to the comment that someone told candlequeen, that she should have "known" better. (That just makes me sick. I can't believe people talk to others that way.)

    What it really comes down to, is no one tells Christians they should get divorced. But Christians push their beliefs on others telling them what is "right / wrong". If a Christian just said, "I wouldn't get a divorce because that's against my beliefs" I'd be fine with it. But since they typically say, "I don't believe in divorce and people shouldn't do it". That's where it crosses the line for me.


    Christians are told they are wrong by others too. I think that is a problem with people in general, not Christians specifically.

    shan417Dreamingmommy4
  • Since I was LO I hate religion!it does the matter wish one was. I just never like how they force people to do things or believe in someone the I cannot see. On the other hand I open my eyes and realize the religion was something the other cultures bring to my people, and they made them to believe and forget about they culture,and not only the the made religion on they own way for all of the native people do what they said. So since I realize the religion is full of crab, I deside to believe in no one. Not been part of any religion until I fine to be of a Buddhism. I don't want to offend anyone, I just posting how I feel about religion.
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  • Since I was LO I hate religion!it does the matter wish one was. I just never like how they force people to do things or believe in someone the I cannot see. On the other hand I open my eyes and realize the religion was something the other cultures bring to my people, and they made them to believe and forget about they culture,and not only the the made religion on they own way for all of the native people do what they said. So since I realize the religion is full of crab, I deside to believe in no one. Not been part of any religion until I fine to be of a Buddhism. I don't want to offend anyone, I just posting how I feel about religion.
    Dude. 
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  • I think you can believe in something without being "religious". I try to take my morals into account when I make decisions.  I bet all of you do that too, except I might hold myself to stricter standards, or ones that are common among "religious" people.  That doesn't mean I hold you to those same standards, or feel that there aren't exceptions to the "rules." Life is not black and white, and I think even God wants us to follow what we feel is right rather than a list of "rules."
  • Did anyone else realize that in 2 days this thread has already received more views than all the FAQs?
    [Deleted User]runningyogimamaSkeemerMagPie 1986
  • LOL, yeah. It's the thread that won't die. And I have no idea why I keep coming back to read new posts.

    ^ My first post in this thread


    bumpuser5078523
  • LOL, yeah. It's the thread that won't die. And I have no idea why I keep coming back to read new posts.


    ^ My first post in this thread
    Uh...me, too, lol. Did someone ever insert an eating popcorn gif?

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  • NVandGZ said:
    It amazes me that there are people that can't really imagine how bad things can be for others. Whether they have just been sheltered or haven't had the opprotunity to see how difficult others lives can be. But it does bother me that they believe in blanket statements on divorce and abortion. Sure if you don't want to do it great. But others definitely need to have the freedom to make their own choices! Many of the people, like candlequeen, probably didn't go into her marriage thinking it would end in divorce. But through the circumstances, and for her children divorce was the right answer. Just because you have a good marriage and don't "believe" in divorce, that shouldn't be pushed on others and making them feel bad when their circumstances are different. End rant! Candlequeen, I hope all is going well for you. As well as it can. I pray for your family always!

    I was not under the impression Hudson was taking away anyone's freedom to make their own choices. She explained her belief quite clearly, and the sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. It can however be proven to be null and void, not valid in the first place. Which she already stated reasons for as well.

    The Catholic Curch does not encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship or endanger her kids. The Church does many good works to support women's shelters, single moms, divorced people, etc. 

    Hudson never mentioned Candlequeen, and didn't spew any judgement. It seems unfair that you would make an assumption like that. Hudson simply stated her beliefs, and explained them. 

    I'm sure Hudson also knows: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. 
    What?? (to the bold)

    See that's the whole thing.. Many women probably still don't think that their whole marriage is "null and void". The marriage existed, the love existed. And then things changed. To say that the marriage had to be "null and void" really hurts women and takes away part of their life. It comes back to the comment that someone told candlequeen, that she should have "known" better. (That just makes me sick. I can't believe people talk to others that way.)

    What it really comes down to, is no one tells Christians they should get divorced. But Christians push their beliefs on others telling them what is "right / wrong". If a Christian just said, "I wouldn't get a divorce because that's against my beliefs" I'd be fine with it. But since they typically say, "I don't believe in divorce and people shouldn't do it". That's where it crosses the line for me.

    There is a difference between an annulment and a divorce.  The divorce freed me from legal ties to my exhusband and defined the legal obligations of both of us to our children.  The annulment process reviewed the circumstances surrounding our wedding (the time leading up to and the making of our promises) and in my case declared our marriage invalid.  It just freed me to marry IN the Church if I chose to.  If I didn't give two hoots about getting married in the Church again, I could have chosen not to pursue the annulment.  It didn't take away part of my life at all.

    I heard comments much worse than I should have known better in the years following my divorce.  From where I stood, the ones that told me if I had put out more frequently than ex wouldn't have done what he did to dd, well they were telling me in no uncertain terms that I didn't want to associate with them in any shape or form.  I won't lie and say it was easy to hear people say that.  

    But you know the flip side of this, why do so many ask the abused woman why she didn't just leave? 

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  • @ITK, I often thought if I was as strong as people call me, I would have had the strength to leave before he did what he did to dd.  In my case, I guess I don't equate not falling apart with being strong.

    When we went back to AS for xh's sentencing, we all barely held it together until we got in the car.  All four of us; my mom, 2 kids and myself, broke out laughing as soon as we closed the car doors.  The unanimous opinion was that with xh's weight gain and the orange outfit xh was in he looked like a pregnant, orange pumpkin.  Humor is the one of our biggest strengths and we used it.....a.lot.

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    freezorburnYellowLily2013Skeemer
  • Why, oh why
    You'd know if you were talking with us.

    Into+the+KittyCLLDLLMandmeesh
  • Oh, fuck me!! Why won't this thread die?!

    I think I learned my lesson, guys! Think before I post stupid shit! ;)
    Chad and Fawn

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