Discuss

MrsCase1 · January 2014

One of our local towns has enacted a program that arms particular members of schools with guns. There will be signs on campuses warning potential threats that if they bring a weapon on campus, they run the risk of being shot. The district won't say who is armed or how many people on each campus (for security reasons, I assume.) Anyone who is armed receives 80 hours of training, re-qualified every two years, and pass assorted background checks. The news interviewed a lot of residents and they all seemed relieved. If it impacts your views, the town is small and rural.

So! Would you feel relieved or nervous?

Edited for spelling.

MollySm · January 2014

Nervous and there is absolutely no way that I would send my kids to a school knowing there were guns at school.

nunzchucks · January 2014

Nervous unless I knew it was a qualified police officer.

rainbowdashh · January 2014

It would make me nervous. I feel like anyone can snap and putting guns in a school is just not a good idea.

kellyjayne · January 2014

Absolutely nervous. It is one thing to have a qualified police officer or security guard on duty at a school, but to arm an unknown number of teachers that could possibly snap at any time is terrifying. While school shootings are unfortunately becoming more prevalent, they are not common enough to justify arming school employees. I wouldn't be comfortable sending my kids there...and I live in Colorado, capital of school shootings.

snowpants · January 2014

Holy crap I'd be nervous, and if I could send my kid to school elsewhere I'd at least strongly consider it. @kellyjayne is right, it's one thing to have an armed police officer around, but arming other random employees after only 80 hours of training? WTH? No thanks.

chloephoebecali · January 2014

I would not be happy.

Luna C · January 2014

I would be very unhappy with that and would not send my kids to that school.

hjl050308 · January 2014

I'd be too nervous and wouldn't send my kids there.

yayksimp · January 2014

I know DH would be down for this, but my instincts tell me I'm strongly against the idea-- guns have an amazing tendency to take a dangerous situation --one that might been possible to resolve in other ways-- and spinning it out of control.

bebemac · January 2014

I don't think I have enough knowledge on guns to form an educated opinion. My current opinion would be based on ignorance and fear, which isn't really fair. The only thing I know at this point is that school shootings are a tragedy.

SchoolPsychSteph · January 2014

I may be the black sheep here. I would be fine with it and feel more secure with armed personnel in my child's school. I think the chances of an armed professional with significant training going nuts is much less likely than a random student bringing a gun to school. The schools in our district recently installed a security system at the front doors. Everyone has to be buzzed in after 8:15. Sure I appreciate the effort, but that's not going to stop someone from shooting a lock off another door in the back of the building. Or someone posing as an aunt or uncle coming to eat lunch with a student only to shoot up the place. I can seewhy many would feel ununcomfortable with the situation, but I personally would be okay with it.

bebemac · January 2014

Edit: Delete double post. I thought this didn't post the first time.

kbellizio3 · January 2014

I'd be totally ok with it, 80 hours of training is a good amount of time. We had one or two armed police officers visit regularly but my high school was huge, if a shooting happened on one side of the building the cops wouldn't be able to get there in time before mass damage occurred. Also there have been a lot of incidents where a gunman opens fire only to be stopped by an armed citizen with a gun (Portland mall shooting, Texas HS shooting, I'm sure there's more but those two popped into my head). I'd rather my kids know there are good guys with guns who can potentially stop the bad guys with guns. Security buzzers and things like that are great, but schools are an easy target and shooters don't really care about buzzing in and signing in at the office. And while "other methods" sound great in theory (props to the teacher in NM who talked that 12 year old down) but a shooter looking to do mass harm won't care who's trying to talk to them.

I can understand why people would be nervous though. But I'd be ok with it.

JulieSmiles · January 2014

I don't think I have enough knowledge on guns to form an educated opinion. My current opinion would be based on ignorance and fear, which isn't really fair. The only thing I know at this point is that school shootings are a tragedy.

This is me. I work in a school. I think more training meds to happen for ALL staff on what to do in crisis situations. I think it would be smart to have some armed people in the building, but it needs to be a very selective process on who. I also would be concerned with students who could overpower the teacher and take the gun. For example, I worked in an alternative school one semester. Those kids had emotional disturbances and had been violent previously. They could have easily overpowered me and all the other female staff members if they chose.

feistybear · January 2014

Eh.. I don't know. I can see the point others make about schools being defenseless and this gives them some sort of protection but, I just don't know how I'd feel sending my kids to a school where I knew guns were around. They may be well trained but it doesn't mean accidents don't happen.

JujuB22 · January 2014

joules235 said:

SchoolPsychSteph said:

I may be the black sheep here. I would be fine with it and feel more secure with armed personnel in my child's school. I think the chances of an armed professional with significant training going nuts is much less likely than a random student bringing a gun to school. The schools in our district recently installed a security system at the front doors. Everyone has to be buzzed in after 8:15. Sure I appreciate the effort, but that's not going to stop someone from shooting a lock off another door in the back of the building. Or someone posing as an aunt or uncle coming to eat lunch with a student only to shoot up the place. I can see why many would feel uncomfortable with the situation, but I personally would be okay with it.

This, its not like the people chosen would be picked out of a hat... Were talking significant background checks, mental evaluations and trainings.

Totally agree with this and think its about time they started arming the schools.

ElTrain5 · January 2014

For me it's a moot point because, no, I don't believe appointing random teachers to have guns would prevent those specific kind of tragedies. Sandy hook was on lockdown, the kid busted through a window. So what if Mrs Smith 5 classrooms down had a handgun? The kid had automatic rifles and body armor. Plus he shot himself the second he heard those sirens. They would, however, open up the possibility of those weapons getting in the hands of the students (however small it may be) thereby creating more danger than they would do good. It's hard for people to feel helpless, no body wants to acknowledge that there's not much they can do to prevent certain (very specific, like sandy hook) things a from happening. But that doesn't mean turning our schools into prisons or armed states is going to be effective. There's PLENTY of shootings/stabbing a/beatings in Chicago public schools and those schools have full time police officers and metal detectors.

b48kate · January 2014

Would never fly in my area and I would not support it.

Side note, I have a friend who has taught high school chemistry in several school districts over his career. He always said that he personally felt safer when working in an "under-served" (read: poor) school. Sure, you may catch a bullet intended for someone else, but when a shooting happened there was usually an actual target individual involved. In the suburbs, or so he said, you never knew which one could snap and the suburb kids seemed less discriminating about who they took down.

snowpants · January 2014

ElTrain5 said:

For me it's a moot point because, no, I don't believe appointing random teachers to have guns would prevent those specific kind of tragedies. Sandy hook was on lockdown, the kid busted through a window. So what if Mrs Smith 5 classrooms down had a handgun? The kid had automatic rifles and body armor. Plus he shot himself the second he heard those sirens. They would, however, open up the possibility of those weapons getting in the hands of the students (however small it may be) thereby creating more danger than they would do good. It's hard for people to feel helpless, no body wants to acknowledge that there's not much they can do to prevent certain (very specific, like sandy hook) things a from happening. But that doesn't mean turning our schools into prisons or armed states is going to be effective. There's PLENTY of shootings/stabbing a/beatings in Chicago public schools and those schools have full time police officers and metal detectors.

THIS.

As to the point of 80 hours being enough training... I'm not talking about it being insufficient for learning to shoot a gun @joules235, you're absolutely right that it's not that hard. I think any idiot can shoot a gun and I'm pretty sure idiots all around the country prove that every day. (NOT talking about most gun owners here, I believe the vast majority are very capable and not idiots at all, and I'm not going down a "no guns for anybody!!!!1!!!" road or anything.) but for someone to be trained on what to do under gunfire situations, possibly with hostages, probably with lots of innocent children all around, takes a lot of training. When do you shoot back? When do you not? How do you assess the situation and make the best decision? And are you skilled enough to make the shot that you need to make? And can you do this all before the cops and trained professionals arrive (because if not, what's the point)? Etc. This is the stuff that I think needs more training if you're going to be any help at all.

I'd be very curious if anyone has a link to any reputable study that shows guns in schools make them safer, because everything I've heard is just the opposite but clearly I'm no expert.

nunzchucks · January 2014

I would NOT want to be one of these armed people. I can't imagine the shitstorm of scrutiny following an incident whether you use your gun or not.

diagonalley · January 2014

Personally, being a teacher whose classroom is super close to the main entrance, I would feel more comfortable knowing there were trained school employees that had the necessary weapons in the event of an attack on our school. In our training we are taught to first run, if we can't then hide, and if you can't hide, then fight. I mean really, what am I supposed to fight an armed gun man with? A chair? Pretty sure they would have the upper hand. And in all honesty, if someone wanted to come in with a concealed weapon, they could waltz right through the front door. I'd feel safer knowing people are there to protect me and my students.

wtfisup · January 2014

ABSOLUTELY NOT COOL, and I'm a gunsmith's kid. I grew up surrounded by guns and am pretty knowledgable. Training doesn't mean that they're ready to make that kind of moral call or are mentally stable enough to take on that tremendous responsibility.

People who want to commit violent acts like shootings aren't concerned about surviving. Armed people won't deter them. At all. That's not a logic that would factor in.

erind228 · January 2014

MommyP710 said:

Personally, being a teacher whose classroom is super close to the main entrance, I would feel more comfortable knowing there were trained school employees that had the necessary weapons in the event of an attack on our school. In our training we are taught to first run, if we can't then hide, and if you can't hide, then fight. I mean really, what am I supposed to fight an armed gun man with? A chair? Pretty sure they would have the upper hand. And in all honesty, if someone wanted to come in with a concealed weapon, they could waltz right through the front door. I'd feel safer knowing people are there to protect me and my students.

I too am a teacher, and agree with this entirely.

ricecakes1216 · January 2014

joules235 said:

OK using a gun is not rocket science. Eighty hours of training would be more than enough to teach somebody how to recognize a threat (although the gun spraying bullets would probably be a dead giveaway), shoot somebody close range (most personal defense shootings happen at less than 15 ft) and teach them how to safely conceal and store a weapon.

Personally I would rather have selected trained individuals at the school who were trained to use and gun and had one on them then the current status quo. Schools are completely unprotected and clearly they are a target. There was another shooting on a school campus today in Oklahoma. Imagine how differently Sandy Hook would have been had there been a teacher who could have shot the shooter. How many kids would have been saved if there was somebody with the ability to fight back?

Employing a security guard/ police officer for every school would be insanely expensive.

I 110% agree with this. I would have no problem sending my child to school there. I would probably feel more secure, to be honest.

pcourtade · January 2014

I would definitely ok with this. I think many lives would have been saved before if other schools had done this.

pcourtade · January 2014

wtfisup said:
ABSOLUTELY NOT COOL, and I'm a gunsmith's kid. I grew up surrounded by guns and am pretty knowledgable. Training doesn't mean that they're ready to make that kind of moral call or are mentally stable enough to take on that tremendous responsibility.

People who want to commit violent acts like shootings aren't concerned about surviving. Armed people won't deter them. At all. That's not a logic that would factor in.

Even if they are expecting to die, if people are armed, don't you think that they could at least end it earlier? Some could still be saved.

diagonalley · January 2014

wtfisup said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT COOL, and I'm a gunsmith's kid. I grew up surrounded by guns and am pretty knowledgable. Training doesn't mean that they're ready to make that kind of moral call or are mentally stable enough to take on that tremendous responsibility. People who want to commit violent acts like shootings aren't concerned about surviving. Armed people won't deter them. At all. That's not a logic that would factor in.

Might not deter them, but it will kill them or stop them sooner, and that's ok with me if they have a death wish anyway.

2blessingsin1 · January 2014

I would totally support this. I would have no discomfort with it at all. We have A LOT of guns within our home and support the right to carry. I don't think that a police officer is the only qualified person to carry a gun on school premises.

MollySm · January 2014

There have neen studies done, and in homes where the homeowners have guns, a member of the household is more likely to be hurt by the gun than an intruder. I can't imagine the same wouldn't be true for schools. For me it's a no-brainer, if it would make my kid less safe (and again, that's been shown to be true in homes), then I would never put them in the position of being less safe.

b48kate · January 2014

krptcmschfmkr128 said:
Honestly, since it sounds like they will be going through training (and as long as they need to keep retraining) I have no problem with it.

For those saying school shootings aren't prevalent enough

https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/12/the-school-shootings-you-didn-t-hear-about-one-every-two-weeks-since-newtown.html

Eta: my guess is these people have to go through ACT 235 training which anyone who carries for a profession needs to have (except I think police because, well, they getmore ttraining). These are the people carrying for security jobs, who deliver money to banks, etc. They are out there every day and you don't know or realize it. This IMO is no different.

There are more shootings then we hear about, BUT they are still statistically rare...

https://www.decodedscience.com/risks-school-shooting-versus-airplane-crash/40830

My father is criminal defense attorney and former ADA and I can tell you with some certainty that things don't always go well when when the crime victim pulls a weapon on the aggressor. Things can get better, or can go from bad to worst...

I wish we would spend more time and effort worrying about the root cause of this violence. Somewhere we are culturally broken here in U.S....

diagonalley · January 2014

MollySm said:

There have neen studies done, and in homes where the homeowners have guns, a member of the household is more likely to be hurt by the gun than an intruder. I can't imagine the same wouldn't be true for schools. For me it's a no-brainer, if it would make my kid less safe (and again, that's been shown to be true in homes), then I would never put them in the position of being less safe.

Yea...but I feel like there's a difference. The people in the schools who would have the guns would have gone through several hours of training and I bet are being picked because of their ability to be responsible. It's not like there's a likelihood of guns just laying around for a kid to pick up. Any idiot can get a gun to keep in their house. This is selective.

Lindsleigh77 · January 2014

This would cause me huge anxiety. I'm not sure I can even comment from a place of knowledge about this issue but I think it's just terrifying to know that many people believe that to solve gun violence means to get more guns...... I just can't understand it. Perhaps I'm just a naïve Canadian but guns period scare the crap out of me. I've never even seen a real one up close (only on police officers) or come close to holding one. When something like a school shooting happens it's awful and sad and devastating.

diagonalley · January 2014

Lindsleigh77 said:
This would cause me huge anxiety. I'm not sure I can even comment from a place of knowledge about this issue but I think it's just terrifying to know that many people believe that to solve gun violence means to get more guns...... I just can't understand it. Perhaps I'm just a naïve Canadian but guns period scare the crap out of me. I've never even seen a real one up close (only or come close to holding one.

I am all about gun control, but I am also realistic. Having nothing to protect us is way scarier than a few highly trained personnel carrying guns. It's not a means to solve the issue, but a means to help protect the innocent in the event of an attack. The fact that defenseless young children were gunned down in a violent attack only a year a year ago is still fresh in my mind.

MollySm · January 2014

MommyP710 said:

MollySm said:

There have neen studies done, and in homes where the homeowners have guns, a member of the household is more likely to be hurt by the gun than an intruder. I can't imagine the same wouldn't be true for schools. For me it's a no-brainer, if it would make my kid less safe (and again, that's been shown to be true in homes), then I would never put them in the position of being less safe.

Yea...but I feel like there's a difference. The people in the schools who would have the guns would have gone through several hours of training and I bet are being picked because of their ability to be responsible. It's not like there's a likelihood of guns just laying around for a kid to pick up. Any idiot can get a gun to keep in their house. This is selective.

I have worked in schools and seen the type of people chosen to be in charge of security. I would never let any of them near my child with a gun!

diagonalley · January 2014

MollySm said:

MollySm said:

There have neen studies done, and in homes where the homeowners have guns, a member of the household is more likely to be hurt by the gun than an intruder. I can't imagine the same wouldn't be true for schools. For me it's a no-brainer, if it would make my kid less safe (and again, that's been shown to be true in homes), then I would never put them in the position of being less safe.

Yea...but I feel like there's a difference. The people in the schools who would have the guns would have gone through several hours of training and I bet are being picked because of their ability to be responsible. It's not like there's a likelihood of guns just laying around for a kid to pick up. Any idiot can get a gun to keep in their house. This is selective.
I have worked in schools and seen the type of people chosen to be in charge of security. I would never let any of them near my child with a gun!

I don't believe they said anywhere it would be the security guards. In fact, they said it would not be known who the staff members are that are carrying as to help protect their identity.

diagonalley · January 2014

CDK211 said:

MommyP710 said:

Snip

I don't believe they said anywhere it would be the security guards. In fact, they said it would not be known who the staff members are that are carrying as to help protect their identity.

This could also pose a problem. In the chaos of it all, who will have a list of everybody authorized to carry a gun? Who will know who is helping and who is hurting? A teacher or adult could easily be the shooter, or the kids could get confused as to who is there to help them and who is there to hurt them.

I don't think they're picking any random teacher to do it. Honestly I think this point is a bit of a stretch. A teacher could easily walk in with a concealed weapon if they wanted to anyway. Having permission wouldn't change anything. Also, I don't know of anyone, in a situation with a shooter, who is just going to stand there and wonder about the person who has a gun. I'd think their natural reaction would be to flee or hide.

iris427 · January 2014

Columbine had an armed police officer on duty the day of the shooting. He actually exchanged fire with the killers. I don't think having armed people in a school will deter shootings or necessarily lower the body count. As someone else pointed out, the Sandy Hook killer was wearing body armor and was much better armed than someone with a handgun would be. Armed police officers I might be OK with, random parents and teachers no.

ElTrain5 · January 2014

The thing that makes me sad about this thread, is that the only argument in support of this idea boils down to "More guns = More safety" and unfortunately...that's never been proven to be true. Not in any other country in the world, and not here.

supgabs · January 2014

I would feel 100% comfortable sending my child to school knowing there are armed trained professionals. Banning guns only protects criminals.

snowpants · January 2014

joules235 said:

So what then? If you don't arm trained people in the schools then how do you keep them safe. Mental health care reform. Sure, it really needs to happen but actually at the school. What do you do to keep the kids safe when there is somebody shooting up the place?

Sadly I don't think it's an easy answer. And I'm not posting to change anyone's mind (I'm assuming no one else is either) but just to have an honest discussion on my admittedly uneducated feelings on the subject. So far studies have shown (as far as I know) that adding more guns doesn't actually make the situation safer. If it did, then I'd be ok with it because safety for my kid at school and anywhere is top priority. So what does make it safer? I think addressing the mental health issues that get overlooked are a big part of it. I think changing our culture in general needs to happen for any real changes to take place, but that's not a simple thing. It's incredibly complicated.

I believe (but someone please fact check me if you'd like) that for developed countries the US has the highest rate of gun injuries and the highest rate of gun ownership. We also have the highest rate of police officers, so clearly having armed officers isn't even keeping our numbers down. Why not?

Trust me, if I had a good solution I'd be happy to offer it up. People are often so polarized on the topic though that you're guaranteed to make a lot of people mad no matter what solution you pursue.

It's frustrating. And sad.

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