Down syndrome.

MamaFantastic · October 2013

i would not terminate for a DS diagnosis, or for any other disability. i witnessed my good friend carry her baby (with great trauma to her own body, a funeral with a tiny casket, and a recovery process from hell) to 32 weeks and deliver him with no knowledge of whether he'd live or die, and what quality of life he'd have. to see her honor his life and his worth in that way... that forever changed me. walking through that pregnancy and delivery with her just reaffirmed my strong feelings about this subject.

AcaAwkward · October 2013

SeattleMomma said:
Heh. I never said I was any better. Dear lord, ya'll read into this junk wayyyy too much. All I said was my opinion. If the girl said " Hey my baby has Down syndrome I'm having an abortion" if I would of made a comment after that then maybe that would be offsensive. No one here is dealing with this so why is my opionion such a big deal??? I'm not against abortion I've had one already. All I'm saying is if you'd intentionally get rid of your baby for not being "perfect" that's just totally wrong IN MY OPIONION. Sooo simmer the hell down, geesh..

Sooooo...you "intentionally got rid" of your baby for...not "perfect" circumstances? Explain to me how that is different than anyone else who chooses to terminate, specifics aside?

Usually I wouldn't touch such a ridiculous statement but, DAMN, your rationale for attacking another member for a (hypothetical, if we're all remembering correctly) decision (which, correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't even absolute -- pretty sure dani just gave some very well articulated reasons the decision wouldn't be cut and dry) MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE given
your background and supposed beliefs.

ETA: In absolutely no way am I judging your past decisions. Just using your exact words to try and grasp as some context clues over here.

strawberrytree · October 2013

Sometimes love isn't enough. We have a family friend who has two now-adult sons. One has Down's, one is on the higher end of the autism spectrum. She is a small woman and her sons have become physically violent with her. Any time we see her, or hear how she's doing from her from her brothers, it's always "Hanging in there...barely." I hear about how exhausted she is, how she cries at night worrying about what will happen to them when she's gone. She and her husband work their fingers to the bone caring for their boys, on top of their jobs. It is hard. It is a lifelong commitment. It is not all happy sunshine lovable little ones forever. It's not like being a special ed teacher, where you can go home at the end of the day or on weekends and get a break. You don't get a break. Ever.

Would I terminate if I found out my baby had Downs? Possibly. I can't say yes or no because I've never been in that situation. But I would consider it and weigh my options. I find some of the judgement thrown at moms who would make that decision sad. Every single one of them made the choice that was right for them, in their situation. Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

Mamaengen · October 2013

I would definitely not abort and would do everything within my power to raise that child as if he/she didn't have Downs. My grandma was the perfect inspiration for this. She had 13 pregnancies and 10 babies (one died shortly after birth as a blue baby), and one of those children has downs. He is currently approaching 60 years old!!! It's such a testament to what love and patience can do for a child with Downs. He is doing well and graduated high school. Back when she had him, his life expectancy was 12. But he's done most things that a non-Downs child would. I would hope to be as great a mother as her if I faced the same thing.

Mamaengen · October 2013

mrscrcalli said:

seannasmommy16 said:
Okay let me re ask it. If your child had Down syndrome would your abort the baby.. There we that better?
We are going there? Ok this thread should get fun..

No I would not, I would love it and raise it just as I would a "normal" baby cause its part of me and H..

Also my cousin and a close friend of ours both got positive reads and kept the babies and nothing ended up being wrong.

I'm in love with this little one already no matter what.

Same thing happened to my cousin. She is perfectly normal to this day (16 years later). All the testing did was cause my aunt tons of undue stress over how she would take care of her. In the end, she was thankful she went against the suggestions of the doctors and didn't abort her.

DaniSara21 · October 2013

Keep the baby and raise it and love it so so unconditionally. That is a horrible question.

seannasmommy16 · October 2013

DaniSara21 said:
Keep the baby and raise it and love it so so unconditionally. That is a horrible question.

It's not a horrible question. It's a real thing that could happen to anyone of us. Many women face this on a daily basis. I was just asking because it's something I wanted to hear from people and see what they would do. If it's such a awful question, then dont answer. More women abort there babies with Down syndrome then keeping them. So therefor I asked

Andrewsgal · October 2013

DaniSara21 said:
Keep the baby and raise it and love it so so unconditionally. That is a horrible question.

Actually if you read the post many people have pointed out it is a great thought provoking question with no easy answers.

RubiksElf · October 2013

I actually think this is an interesting topic to discuss, since many people do face this decision. I am adamantly pro-choice, but don't think I would make the decision to terminate if it was discovered my child had Downs syndrome.

This is a little off-topic, but my DH and I had this conversation after our last loss. We were getting tested for it about a week after the loss was discovered (which obviously didn't happen). However, the genetic results on the fetus determined he had Trisomy 21 (or Downs syndrome). They are pretty sure it caused a severe heart defect that caused the loss. For how devastating that loss was, I was grateful I didn't have to make this decision. It would have been crystal clear in the next couple appointments how severe his case was and we would have been faced with it. This is definitely a question that is hard to answer unless you are in that position.

Sisimama10 · October 2013

@rubikself thank you for sharing.

maelic · October 2013

If the NT scan had shown an increased risk of Down Syndrome I would have had a CVS or an amniocentisis. Had that confirmed Trisomy 21, we probably would have had an abortion. I can't say for sure, because it didn't happen this way, but that would probably have been our decision had we found out at 13 weeks.

If we were to find out at birth that our child has Down Syndrome, we would obviously love the child as much as any child and do our very best to ensure that his or her physical and economical needs were met even in the event of our death (untimely or eventual), in great part to minimize any impact on any other children we might have.

I am pro-choice and this is a choice I feel I would make for me and my family. I don't believe in god and I don't believe life begins at conception, so it is not, hypothetically, a moral quandary for me. I may have changed my mind, but I can say that this (NT scan and potential early detection) will be the plan for our next child as well.

avidkeo · October 2013

I think its very hard for pro-choice ladies to get a real voice here. I think the question is a very appropriate one, and also very hard to answer. If you are against abortion, then thats fine, but do not judge someone because they WANT the option, and want a safe place to discuss it.

I would hate it if in the next few weeks, someone found out they had a Trisomy baby, but did not feel comfortable discussing their options because they would be blasted for even thinking of an abortion.

To put my money where my mouth is, I am very much pro-choice about this sort of thing. As talked about above, its not as simple as loving your child, its also thinking about their long term care, and what will happen to them once I am unable to take care of them. Unfortunately, the care we have for our disabled population does not make me feel comfortable about willingly bringing someone into this world who will have to rely on this "care" for the rest of their life.

Please respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

edoliesmom · October 2013

AcaAwkward said:

This is a tough question, and one I don't think I could honestly answer unless I were in that situation. But I'll take a stab at it... I would not terminate a child with Down Syndrome so long as his or her quality of life was reasonably assured to be promising, given the limitations of the syndrome. I will love all of my children with my whole heart, no matter their stregnths and weakness, gifts and limitations... However, it would be very hard for me to bring a child into this world who was sure to need a dozen heart surgeries before the age of one, who would never be able to digest food without a feeding tube, etc. There are certain instances wherein a baby would be in constant pain for its very short life where I believe termination might be a better option (this isn't often the case with DS but I'm extrapolating here). Many people don't realize that DS presents in varying degrees of severity, and I am not sure what my decision would be if it turned out that our child's resulting abnormalities were to be on the very severe end of the spectrum.

I seem to be in the minority and am pro-life. I personally have never thought abortion to ever be an option for me, but after reading your points, I can say I don't know anymore... I'm one of the people that didn't realize that DS has different levels of severity. I guess I did kind of, but didn't realize how extreme the levels of severity could be.

I can relate it to someone being on life support, not having very good odds of survival, and even if they do, their quality of life wouldn't be anymore than being strapped up to machines and confined to a bed for the rest of their life, then having to be the person who has to make the decision on whether to continue care or not... This would be so difficult, but even more so for a baby since you couldn't have possibly discussed with them what they'd want to be done in that situation as you could have with a parent or a spouse, for example. You would just have to make the decision using your best judgment and instincts. Ugh... that would be beyond difficult!! But after having thought about this, I can now say I wouldn't completely rule it out, not if it meant saving my baby from a lifetime of pain.

I hope this is a decision none of us are ever faced with.

Erikahenderson1 · October 2013

I would abort. At this point in time I would do anything to make sure my baby is healthy. I would be horribly sad if I were to miscarry, or to find out anything was wrong. But I am terrified enough with this being my first child. Everyone says you're never ready til you have them. I've done everything I possibly could in order to "get ready." I'm 24, married, own a home and both my husband and I work. I honestly don't think I could support a child with those needs. We would struggle and my child would suffer the consequences. I'm as ready as I'll ever be for a healthy baby, anything else would be more than just a struggle, it would be detrimental. Your question is not stupid, it's completely relevant, and I'm sorry there are so many hormonal bitches on this site trying to make you feel dumb for asking a question.

seannasmommy16 · October 2013

Erikahenderson1 said:
I would abort. At this point in time I would do anything to make sure my baby is healthy. I would be horribly sad if I were to miscarry, or to find out anything was wrong. But I am terrified enough with this being my first child. Everyone says you're never ready til you have them. I've done everything I possibly could in order to "get ready." I'm 24, married, own a home and both my husband and I work. I honestly don't think I could support a child with those needs. We would struggle and my child would suffer the consequences. I'm as ready as I'll ever be for a healthy baby, anything else would be more than just a struggle, it would be detrimental. Your question is not stupid, it's completely relevant, and I'm sorry there are so many hormonal bitches on this site trying to make you feel dumb for asking a question.

Andddd.....
I love you

Mommyoftwo1014 · October 2013

Just because it had Down syndrome dosent mean its different! I'd treat my child the same no matter their differences!
Babies with Downs are angels so I'd fe very blessed.

BiggerinRealLife · October 2013

I would never judge someone for their choice on this issue because I'm not going to be living their life for them, so how can I fault their choices? That, and I try not to judge anyway, as that's putting yourself in a seat that makes you 'better' than the person you're judging. And I don't think I'm better than anyone, regardless of their choices.

That being said, from a purely objective standpoint, nothing personal intended, the sociologist in me thinks it's not a very far leap between aborting a baby with Downs, sex-selective abortions, and 'purifying' a race/humanity. History shows that societal shifts happen incrementally, and as a society becomes comfortable with one shift, another is on the horizon. Let me be clear, I'm not saying one will lead to the other, just pointing out that those abortions have a similar root cause where there is an unwanted characteristic in the baby that is terminated.

aphilcox · October 2013

Hi, my name is Alana and I will be going for a similar test soon. My husband and I have been struggling with whether or not have the test...is the devil you know better than the one you don't? But there is one thing we know, we would keep the child regardless. This goes for any abnormality, defect, imperfection, etc... I guess the best thing about knowing if your child has Downs is being better prepared when your baby does arrive. You will have time to become more knowledgeable about the topic, join boards such as this one to reach out to families in similar situations, etc... I know the decision is yours and I am sure you two will decide what is best for you both, but know you would NEVER be alone if you decide to keep the baby. You won't be the first person to have a baby with Down Syndrome, and you certainly won't be the last.

Laura11786 · October 2013

I'm sorry but if I knew my baby was going to be proded by doctors, in and out of hospital and put through pain all of their life I would have serious doubts I would keep it, all life is precious but I've grown up with my brother having severe disabilities, spending half his life in a hospital bed, never having a gf or the chance to travel or even go to the pub and then his body gave in at 21 and if my mum knew of all the pain he would have suffered through all his life she told me she wouldn't know what she would do! I'm high risk and my baby is under serious danger so I might have to make some difficult decisions and no one has a right to judge unless they are in that particular situation. All Children are special but I think you need to consider what quality of life they will have and make the decision right for your baby and family!

megan8127 · October 2013

seannasmommy16 said:

I'm not against abortion by any means. I think it's a women's choice, not the one to judge either. On the other hand, if a women has had like 6 abortions.. Then I think it's time for her to get birth control or to keep a kid. As for me, abortion is just something I couldn't see myself doing.. Maybe adoption but not abortion..

So, you are judging. And a woman who has had 6 abortions is very clearly saying she is not ready/wanting a child. The last thing I would want that woman to do is "keep a kid".

SSchuerg · October 2013

megan8127 said:

seannasmommy16 said:

I'm not against abortion by any means. I think it's a women's choice, not the one to judge either. On the other hand, if a women has had like 6 abortions.. Then I think it's time for her to get birth control or to keep a kid. As for me, abortion is just something I couldn't see myself doing.. Maybe adoption but not abortion..

So, you are judging. And a woman who has had 6 abortions is very clearly saying she is not ready/wanting a child. The last thing I would want that woman to do is "keep a kid".

--------------------------------------------
Well, six abortions seems a bit excessive. Some people need to use better judgment, have better self-control, and/or keep it in their pants. As I said before, I'm pro-life, but I'm not going to think less of someone for having had an abortion if they felt it was their only option, and it was a hard decision for them to make. But when people more or less use abortion as a form of "birth control" and really have no conscience about it, it's very hard for me to maintain any respect for them.

BiggerinRealLife · October 2013

jillianbova said:
I hope to be the kind of friend that peope can come to no matter what their situation and know I support them. As women, we should never be afraid to question ourselves and our choices. We shouldn't be afraid to have these kinds of discussions. Life is hard enough as it is, but if we can't talk about things like this what's the point of an open forum?

This. Totally feminist statement right there. Love it.

Rrrrrachel · October 2013

Until politicians are as concerned with children after their born than before and insure that the resources are there to raise children in safe environments, let alone access to birth control and sex education, I don't see how we can judge women who get abortions. No matter how many. Downs is particularly a hard because some kids have a great quality of life and some don't, and it's hard to know what will happen for a particular child before their born.

Rogue237 · October 2013

SSchuerg said:

seannasmommy16 said:

I'm not against abortion by any means. I think it's a women's choice, not the one to judge either. On the other hand, if a women has had like 6 abortions.. Then I think it's time for her to get birth control or to keep a kid. As for me, abortion is just something I couldn't see myself doing.. Maybe adoption but not abortion..

So, you are judging. And a woman who has had 6 abortions is very clearly saying she is not ready/wanting a child. The last thing I would want that woman to do is "keep a kid".
-------------------------------------------- Well, six abortions seems a bit excessive. Some people need to use better judgment, have better self-control, and/or keep it in their pants. As I said before, I'm pro-life, but I'm not going to think less of someone for having had an abortion if they felt it was their only option, and it was a hard decision for them to make. But when people more or less use abortion as a form of "birth control" and really have no conscience about it, it's very hard for me to maintain any respect for them.

I can't say that I know from experience - i'm lucky enough to never have had any serious procedure like an abortion or even something as unfortunate as a D&C that seems very invasive, but I can't imagine many women would be getting such a serious procedure done over and over again, right? Again, I have no clue - I'm sure there's some statistics out there, but I can't imagine someone with the mindset of 'yeah, I'll just get that horribly painful and invasive procedure for the 7th time.' I mean, my view on it is that I defend your right to make any choice you want on your body, even if it's a decision I don't agree with. That said, any argument that people are getting abortions like they're popping skittles seems crazy to me (not that anyone on here said that, but in general).

edoliesmom · October 2013

Rrrrrachel said:

Until politicians are as concerned with children after their born than before and insure that the resources are there to raise children in safe environments, let alone access to birth control and sex education, I don't see how we can judge women who get abortions. No matter how many. Downs is particularly a hard because some kids have a great quality of life and some don't, and it's hard to know what will happen for a particular child before their born.

I can maybe see your point on sex ed. and access to birth control concerning teens, but grown women have all the resources they need (ex.: when I first got married, I went to Planned Parenthood, provided some basic personal and financial info about myself, and walked out of their with free pills and condoms. Also, box of condoms: $10) and should have enough common sense to know how our bodies work in order to become pregnant, that if you have sex you could pregnant, and that if they unintentionally get pregnant more than twice, it's time to rethink things and start being a BIT more cautious when it comes to their sex life. So no, I still maintain that it would be hard for me to have respect for women who choose to use abortion as a form of BC, and that the government and politics shouldn't be held accountable for someone else's irresponsibility.

Twirple · October 2013

I have a family member who has had 5 abortions. You bet I judge her for that! She is an intelligent, hard working person who has had a drug problem. She probably got the abortions because she was afraid that her babies would be born addicted. I believe that she made the right decision for her, but I also know that she is intelligent enough to know what a condom is, and to get on the pill.

When she was in this situation (repeatedly) she was holding down a regular job, she was not a teenager, and she had access to birth control.

I do love this woman, and she is great with my son, but I can't help thinking about the decision she made 5 times.

That said, I cannot judge someone who has an abortion for an unplanned pregnancy or a pregnancy where the child is unhealthy.

Now, DH and I have decided not to have genetic testing done, which pretty much takes this decision out of our hands.

edoliesmom · October 2013

@Rogue237 I thought the same thing! I was like," I'm not sure what all an abortion entails, but surely that can't be a GOOD thing for your body..." I was only using that as part of my argument because I was quoting someone, and as Twirple has decided to share with us, there really are women in the world like this. And that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

Rrrrrachel · October 2013

SLSchuerg said:

Rrrrrachel said:

Until politicians are as concerned with children after their born than before and insure that the resources are there to raise children in safe environments, let alone access to birth control and sex education, I don't see how we can judge women who get abortions. No matter how many.

Downs is particularly a hard because some kids have a great quality of life and some don't, and it's hard to know what will happen for a particular child before their born.

I can maybe see your point on sex ed. and access to birth control concerning teens, but grown women have all the resources they need (ex.: when I first got married, I went to Planned Parenthood, provided some basic personal and financial info about myself, and walked out of their with free pills and condoms. Also, box of condoms: $10) and should have enough common sense to know how our bodies work in order to become pregnant, that if you have sex you could pregnant, and that if they unintentionally get pregnant more than twice, it's time to rethink things and start being a BIT more cautious when it comes to their sex life. So no, I still maintain that it would be hard for me to have respect for women who choose to use abortion as a form of BC, and that the government and politics shouldn't be held accountable for someone else's irresponsibility.

That's . . . Total bullshit. Sorry, but I don't know how else to say it. Not everyone has a planned parenthood near them. Or if they do they may not have transportation to get there. Or they may not have the education necessary to understand that certain unreliable methods of bc like pull and pray are, in fact, unreliable. Or they may have an abusive spouse. This whole post drips privilege and lack of empathy.

edoliesmom · October 2013

@Rrrrrachel Obviously (or maybe not-so-obvious?) I'm not talking about women who have abusive spouses. I'm not going to defend every point you've put against me because I know it won't change your mind (and I'm not trying to anyway), but I certainly don't want you to misunderstand me. I've been working since I was 17, married at 19, widowed at 20, don't have any college under my belt, my now husband and I have to pay our rent with his financial aid, and I'm the breadwinner of our household working 31 hours a week at $7.50 an hour, so I'm definitely not "privileged" and happen to be a very empathetic person. Apologies if I came off otherwise. Anyone at all who's living goes through life experiencing new situations and struggles, and through those experiences can either learn from it and gain knowledge, wisdom and common sense, or they can repeatedly make the same choices, experience the same struggles and never learn anything from it. All women are given opportunities to learn through their own life and choices and see the cause and effect of things. And if they have transportation to go get an abortion, they certainly have transportation to go buy a freaking box of condoms.

Rogue237 · October 2013

@twirple - wow, I stand corrected. That is really sad, but thanks for sharing.

Rrrrrachel · October 2013

Great. You've bootstrapped yourself successfully. That's terrific congratulations. But you can never know fully the situation another woman is in. Poverty is profound and generational in this country and women are disempowered in ways you can't imagine, especially in some rural areas. That's my only point there are many reasons why it's not as simple as "get on bc and take some responsibility for yourself"

Andrewsgal · October 2013

SLSchuerg said:

@Rrrrrachel Obviously (or maybe not-so-obvious?) I'm not talking about women who have abusive spouses. I'm not going to defend every point you've put against me because I know it won't change your mind (and I'm not trying to anyway), but I certainly don't want you to misunderstand me. I've been working since I was 17, married at 19, widowed at 20, don't have any college under my belt, my now husband and I have to pay our rent with his financial aid, and I'm the breadwinner of our household working 31 hours a week at $7.50 an hour, so I'm definitely not "privileged" and happen to be a very empathetic person. Apologies if I came off otherwise. Anyone at all who's living goes through life experiencing new situations and struggles, and through those experiences can either learn from it and gain knowledge, wisdom and common sense, or they can repeatedly make the same choices, experience the same struggles and never learn anything from it. All women are given opportunities to learn through their own life and choices and see the cause and effect of things. And if they have transportation to go get an abortion, they certainly have transportation to go buy a freaking box of condoms.

Would you like to see a picture of my beautiful the condom broke and plan B failed baby boy? BC if even available is not 100%. We were luck we could handle another child and were okay with it, some are not and can't. To boil it down to just use birth control is naive at best.

edoliesmom · October 2013

@Andrewsgal Sure! I'd love to see a picture of any fellow bumpies' babies.

Please go back and read all of my points. You don't have to, but I'd rather you not take one thing I said out of context and call me naive. I was originally talking about women (who are in healthy, safe circumstances [I shouldn't assume people know exactly what I'm thinking, but no, I wasn't lumping women who have been raped or are in any kind of unsafe, unhealthy circumstances all into the same category]) who choose to get multiple abortions instead of just using better judgment and/or more precautionary measures. Are there women out there who have had 3+ abortions who just weren't ready for a baby and did, in fact, use protection and got pregnant anyway? Possibly, but I can guarantee you that is a high unlikelihood, just like you getting pregnant with your precious baby boy. Unlikely, but possible, and happened.

It's apparent that no matter how much I try to clarify what I said and meant that people are going to intentionally misconstrue my words just to try to prove that their perspective on the matter is the "right" one. I'm perfectly okay with agreeing to disagree, and I'll leave it at that.

Rrrrrachel · October 2013

Now you're limiting the situation more and more and creating more and more of a straw man.

edoliesmom · October 2013

Rrrrrachel said:

Now you're limiting the situation more and more and creating more and more of a straw man.

A straw man?

BiggerinRealLife · October 2013

SLSchuerg said:

Rrrrrachel said:

Now you're limiting the situation more and more and creating more and more of a straw man.

A straw man?

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person."

And I have to say, that's going on on both sides of this particular side conversation.

Sisimama10 · October 2013

BiggerinRealLife said:

SLSchuerg said:

Rrrrrachel said:

Now you're limiting the situation more and more and creating more and more of a straw man.

A straw man?

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person."

And I have to say, that's going on on both sides of this particular side conversation.

Oooh there's a name for this?! Good to know this is exactly how my SO fights. Lmao

BiggerinRealLife · October 2013

See @Sisimama10? You can learn something new every day on The Bump! I can just picture you arguing now, you can be all like, "oh, no you didn't! You did NOT just straw man me!" And your DH will be all like, "whaaaaa?"

SSchuerg · October 2013

Thanks, @BiggerinRealLife. I'm willing to admit when I'm in the wrong. I feel it's one way to improve myself. But right now, I'm cooking dinner, and that takes priority because I'm HUNGRY. I'll just have to do some good ol' reflecting later!

Kelseyl34 · October 2013

What if you and your significant other disagree? That would be really tough. My DH has always said he would want to terminate, but we didn't do the genetic testing so I guess that option is gone. If the doctor finds out otherwise we will cross that bridge when we come to it. I'd rather wait for a problem to tackle then come up with one.

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