WDPT: Could something been handled differently?

Princess_Lily · September 2013

Yesterday, my mom came by to help with DS, because we have someone coming to look at our house on Tuesday.

DH comes home from work hugs and kisses to everyone, before a quick break to wash up and then settles down with us on the couch, and in typical fashion my mom and DH have (what I thought to be) witty friendly banter, . DS is looking through a catalog picking out a halloween outfit and DH says (in jest), "You should be a witch for Halloween," and she replies "Don't worry you have the the blood of Jesus on you," keep in mind DH is an athiest, and my mom is an evangelical Christian. However the initial response was they both took eachothers comments as friendly jabs...its what they have always done with eachother.

After that DS proceeds to climb onto DH, DH tells him that he can sit next to him but he is in a lot of pain and its too uncomfortable to sit on his lap. I even said, "Honey, sit next to Daddy he's had a long day and is in pain." DS doesn't want to have anything to do with that and sasses and pushes himself on DH more, he just won't give up. DH sternly tells DS that if he doesn't behave and respect him, that he will go into time out. DS responds, "No, YOU go into timeout!!"

DH then takes DS to his room to punish him privately away from us, now DS did get spanked - we believe in that when all else fails, just a quick spank on the tush - not to crazy extreme spankings (like with switches, etc.). We also are in the belief when DS is in the care of his grandparents that its up to them their punishment, and my father believes in spanking - thats fine we trust their judgement.

My mother? She proceeds to loudly and sternly tell me how she can't believe I am not responding to DH's behavior and full on proceeds to have a panic-induced attack. I told her that I don't understand this need to try to repremand us for what she herself witnessed my dad do when we were growing up, they are still married and in love; for the record my brother and I grew up well-balanced and don't hold any hard feelings for my dad - I was just simply stating that I don't know where her total panic is coming from. I explained to her there is nothing wrong with what is happening, DH is DS's father, and DS was being bad - period. I also quietly explained that while DS disrespects her and everyone around him nothing is done on her end, he walks all over her and she baby's him - I told her that everyone see's this behavior (ie. DS's OT) but I told her she still won't change, because she's the only one who believes that DS doesn't have a problem. I said, "When are you going to start to see that DS has a problem? I can't keep him in school, and we are seeing a psychologist about the behavior. But we are wrong!!?? WE are his parents, not YOU." She then either sushes me, or tells me to shut up (I can't remember) and starts grabing her keys and purse, and she looks like she's in full-on panic mode - pacing. I ask her while she is pacing back and forth, "Where are you going?" "I'm leaving," she responds. I said calmly, "Okay, but I need the stuff from your car."

Then, she decides not to go. She says its because she doesn't want DS to see her leave without saying goodbye, but IMO I think its so she should still hear whats going on in the bedroom (a form of control IMO). DH tells me later him and DS hear how my mother and I are talking, and he was crying because he heard her jingling her keys; DH then says he has a teaching moment that was lost because of her behavior.

DS opened his bedroom door and ran to my mom on on the couch. So now, we have DS actually witness this argument between me and my mother - I am telling her I think she is wrong, and maybe she needs help for her behavior. She proceeds to sush me again and DH says, "No, your in my house sushing my wife? I think you can leave." She says, "She's my daughter," DH goes, "She's my wife now. You can't talk to her like that, in my house? Nope." My mom proceeds to (pull out of her arse) how DH hurt her feelings when he called her a witch. I then said, "WTF mom! You had no problem telling my husband he had 'the blood of jesus on him' and he's an athiest! You guys were playing, and now your randomly pulling sh*t up." DH still apologized for doing that, even though he and I both thought she was randomly pulling this - to look like the victim.

So what does she decide to do? Now, she decides to leave, but she had DD's carseat in her car (DS's old one), and she says she will leave it at the door - no, I just don't trust her state of mind. So I quietly walk behind her so that I could get my stuff from the car, I don't say a word to instigate - I just get my stuff and go back to the house.

Oh did I tell you that that all happened 45min before we had a psychologist appointment? Yep, true story. Turns out we missed the entire appointment due to a combination of rush hour traffic and major construction causing a ton of lanes to be shut down (I have a rescheduled appointment for this coming Thursday at 7pm)

I am so angry with my mother right now, she overstepped her line as a grandmother...repremanding DH and I IN FRONT of our child?! I am so pissed! I know what will happen from this, because this crap has happened before. She will tell my Dad some skewed story to make DH looks like an assh**e and make her the victim. If they call me...I don't want to answer the phone. I don't want to deal with the emotional assault from my parents when its clearly fuc**d up and unbalanced. I knew this was coming a mile away, they do this every year around fall-winter, they don't say anything or push their opinions and then they start to push until it comes to a head. They are control freaks, but its not everytime - its quite inconsistent and you never know how they are going to be.

Sorry, I know its kinda long. I don't want to talk about it anymore, but I feel writing is almost cathartic and helps me get these feelings out. It was a nightmare-induced night, I did sleep but not well.

I just hope I did right by my family. WDPT of this whole thing? Could something been done differently?

LoveActually4 · September 2013

I stopped reading after you said your husband spanked your son for being excited to see him, climbing on him and then saying "you go in time out".

RondackHiker · September 2013

I also think the spanking was inappropriate in this instance. Could he have asked DS to get a book or toy and sit next to him to play/read instead?

I also wouldn't have gone after my mom quite as much, like that you and your brother were spanked so she should get over it and that DS disrespects her and everyone sees it and that she's horrible for not seeing DS's issues and on and on.

I'd likely just have said that I supported DH's parenting decisions, including punishment and that there was nothing to discuss. If she was upset and leaving I'd have asked for the car seat and left it at that.

I also don't see how this was a wasted learning experience for DS.

theseaword · September 2013

mamaREB29 said:
I stopped reading after you said your husband spanked your son for being excited to see him, climbing on him and then saying "you go in time out".

This. I'm biased.

MrsCodeMonkey · September 2013

This was very long. I admit to skimming the last portion.

My best advice is avoid getting into a confrontation with your mom over anything to do with your children. She engaged you, but you didn't have to defend DH's actions. Just say you won't discuss it. We found the hard way that when we justify our actions it invites further comments and criticism.

That being said, I definitely think your DH could have handled things better. If I don't want to be climbed on I stand up from the couch. I have also been known to pick her up and put her back down on the floor with her toys.

Princess_Lily · September 2013

I say respectfully while there may be some disagreement to the way DH handled DS in this situation in regards to whether to spank or not, in all honesty my mother would still find fault in the discipline techniques of a simple timeout and make her displeasure known to everyone around her, the end results would still be the same had DS been placed into a timeout and not taken to his room. We have placed him into timeouts before, and she still reacts the same. She doesn't like DS being punished in any form when she is present - especially when DH is doing the punishing. Why? I have no clue. When I punish, she tries to override my parenting in front of DS, not every time we see her either, its very inconsistent.

In addition while a child's talking back or forcing oneself physically onto another when its not allowed/wanted may be typical defiance of a 4yo (and I agree) it still should never be tolerated because that isn't a socially acceptable form of seeking affection from another.

LoveActually4 · September 2013

Seriously dude. 4 year olds don't know about "socially acceptable" physical boundaries. It's our job as parents to teach it to them, not to spank them for not understanding something they can't fully grasp at their age anyways.

I think your expectations are totally out of line for a 4 year old.

ILoveBoys · September 2013

I think the timeout may have been appropriate seeing as how he seems to have behavior issues being worked on? But yes, at 4, redirection usually is our first go-to. Spanking is held for blatant misbehavior and doesn't happen often.
I would've too told her I wouldn't discuss it, it's not her decision what happens in my home. That's it. Don't engage her.
I wouldn't answer the phone or let them into your home until you can calmly discuss things.

mrs.schmitty · September 2013

Honestly, I think this was handled poorly all around. I also think spanking was completely inappropriate in this situation. And I am not anti spanking although I find it is very rarely ever effective.

And while you're mom should not have questioned you in the manner and at the time that she chose, I really would advise you and your husband to talk to your son's psychologist about how you can best help your son when he is acting out given his behavioral issues.

Because if he truly he has a behavioral problem that likely means he has trouble controlling his emotions when he's excited or upset. And punishing him for this is not only unfair but will also likely have the opposite effect. Instead; he needs helps learning other, more productive skills that he can use when he is feeling excited or upset.

.

Princess_Lily · September 2013

Well, thats why we are seeking professional help. We are not sure where the difficulties come from, if they are from the home environment, from his own coping skills he has learned.

DS's difficulties managing his emotions come from not being able to get what he wants when he wants it - the meltdowns are forceful and extreme when they occur.

Nita2603 · September 2013

I can't even with the spanking.

However, I do agree with your mother overstepping. I would have reacted similarly, except I'd probably not dealt with the whole production. If she treats you like a kid in your own house, ask her to leave. Ignore any and all pacing, whining, shushing. Don't have the guilt trip actually work out for her.

Also, if she cannot be respectful and treat you like an adult IN FRONT OF YOUR KIDS, she may need to just stay away for a while until she can.

I may be biased though, because my mother doesn't respect me for shit and makes life in my own house hell for weeks while she visits.
And while I know how to deal, I still don't cut her out like I should.

Mags748 · September 2013

I think all 3 adults could have handled things differently the whole way through, even starting from the banter that sounds it could be confusing for your DS who probably doesnt understand the joking/sarcasm at that age. I think others cover the rest. Also, I'm not not sure if you really did agree with the spanking in this case or just wanted to be able to defend DH to your mother, but I find my own DH is more likely to have unrealistic expectations of behavior since our DS is well bebehaved a mojority of the time. I sometimes have to call him out (but not in front of the kids or anyone else) and he usually gets where I am coming from. I am not a pushover either but I feel like you can't punish children for age appropriate behavior but rather redirect and/ or explain/model acceptable behavior.

klondikebar · September 2013

Princess_Lily said:

In addition while a child's talking back or forcing oneself physically onto another when its not allowed/wanted may be typical defiance of a 4yo (and I agree) it still should never be tolerated because that isn't a socially acceptable form of seeking affection from another.

What the fuck.

klondikebar · September 2013

I'd have a meltdown too if I was getting hit when seeking affection.

mrs.schmitty · September 2013

Princess_Lily said:

Well, thats why we are seeking professional help. We are not sure where the difficulties come from, if they are from the home environment, from his own coping skills he has learned.

DS's difficulties managing his emotions come from not being able to get what he wants when he wants it - the meltdowns are forceful and extreme when they occur.

I get it and I'm not judging you. I've been there not only with a friend of mine who went through this with her child but also as a person who sometimes has a hard time managing her own emotions. It's not easy.

But I also know from my own personal experience that it only made things worse when I felt like I was being punished for not being able to control my emotions. I started to feel like there was something wrong with me or that I was bad in some way. And this just made me more frustrated and upset because I didn't know how to change it.

Even today, I sometimes find myself getting irrationally upset when things don't go the way I want/expect. And I have to remind myself that it's not being upset that's the problem but how I choose to handle that. I am 30 years old. A 4 year old doesn't have that level of self awareness and cognitive skills yet.

And honestly, a lot of this is completely developmentally appropriate for his age. It's just a lot harder with a child who may already be showing signs of struggling with emotion regulation and acting out.

ASmallWonder · September 2013

Princess_Lily said:

Well, thats why we are seeking professional help. We are not sure where the difficulties come from, if they are from the home environment, from his own coping skills he has learned.

DS's difficulties managing his emotions come from not being able to get what he wants when he wants it - the meltdowns are forceful and extreme when they occur.

I don't want to pile you on (and like another poster, I'm not totally anti spanking) but I want to point out the hypocrisy here. Your son has forceful and extreme reactions to not getting what he wants. Your DH spanks him for trying to be physically affectionate. Do you see how that's likely confusing to him? Your DH wanted him to stop, DS did not stop so your DH had a forceful and extreme reaction to not getting his way. I'm not saying that respecting rules is the same as demanding more snacks or whatever toddler demand he has but to him, it's the same idea and he's seeing adults in his life handle things in a hysterical style but when he does it, he's in even more trouble.

LoveActually4 · September 2013

KlondikeBar said:
I'd have a meltdown too if I was getting hit when seeking affection.

I agree with @KlondikeBar on so many levels here. You need to looks at what your DS is saying with his behaviour. He is seeking physical affection and attention from his dad and instead is being spanked. Imagine how he feels? It must be devastating to him.

RondackHiker · September 2013

Since he has trouble not getting what he wants, redirection may help a LOT. DS is a big cuddler/ climber so when I'm flat out he's on me, even if I'm sick. What helps is asking for his help. I tell him mommy is feeling sick and ask if he can bring me a book or water or something else. When he comes back I pay the ground next to me and ask if he can sit next to me (or rub my back if I'm face in the toilet). It gives him something to do. Then I rub his leg or back or arm and praise him. It's not tolerating him being in my face but it's letting him get what he needs while I get what I need. He also LOVES knowing he can help me. It makes him feel big and special and gives him something to "do" when I'm sick, other than treat me like a trampoline (we use to roughhouse a lot). Now he'll ask if I'm sick and wait for me to say I'm okay before rough housing.

I'm not going to lie and say DS has never been punished for things that were an overreaction on my part. It happens. It seems like it happened to you here. That's a seperate issue than your mom.

Since you KNOW she fights discipline, you need to stop engaging. Just repeat, "we are the parents. This is our choice. It isn't up for discussion." Using excuses or justifications lets her argue with you. If she gets too worked up you can add, "you're clearly very upset. It might be better if you left till you are calmer." I'd also use, "don't shush me. Please be respectful."

You shouldn't argue or engage and give her power.

Libby1978 · September 2013

The only thing that situation warranted was a warning. Then if the behavior (talking back) continued a time-out. A four year old does not understand that his dad is in pain, all he understands is that he wanted some attention from his parent. And I'm sorry, when did it become "socially unacceptable" to crave affection from your parent??? That's where affection should come from freely, always!!

I feel sorry for you kid.

NativeFloridian · September 2013

Your son was just seeking some affection and attention. Things like, "Daddy's had a long day," and "Daddy's in pain," mean zilch to a kiddo who wants to cuddle. In fact, if it were my kid she'd insist more cuddles were necessary. She often steamrolls right into painful areas. Kids are sweet and reckless like that. I don't think it warranted a spanking. At all. I don't even think it warranted time-out. Getting up from the couch so as to take the sore area from the danger zone and picking your son up for a cuddle would have been appropriate. Five, maybe ten minutes of cuddles wouldn't have been nearly as long as that ordeal.

As for your mom, she sounds a lot like mine. Don't argue with her. Tell her what's up and if she doesn't like it, tough. She can say what she wants to but the more verbal vomit she puts out the worse place she's putting herself in. Personally, from the sound of this, I wouldn't trust her judgement. She spanks your kid yet he acts out of control around her? Clearly she doesn't know how to address his behavior appropriately. If I were your son I wouldn't know which way was up either.

MrsJakes · September 2013

I think your husband and your mom need to quit with the "joking". It doesn't really sound like joking to me. They may play it off that way, but it seems like there are some underlying issues. It seems really strange to me that "Don't worry you have the the blood of Jesus on you" could ever really be meant in a joking way especially in this context.

Like everyone else, I think your husband over reacted, but I understand his frustration. It drives me up the wall when my son says something like, "No, you go to timeout!".. but the appropriate response to that, I think, would be to follow through and put him in timeout.

When she threatened to leave the first time, you should have insisted that she go.

jorkz821 · September 2013

Just seems like a whole lot of over reaction on the part of 3 grown adults tbh.

Libby1978 · September 2013

Brandi Bee said:

Libby1978 said:

The only thing that situation warranted was a warning. Then if the behavior (talking back) continued a time-out. A four year old does not understand that his dad is in pain, all he understands is that he wanted some attention from his parent. And I'm sorry, when did it become "socially unacceptable" to crave affection from your parent??? That's where affection should come from freely, always!!
I feel sorry for you kid.

You're obviously not familiar with her backstory at all. And a four year old is absolutely able to understand that another person is in pain and it isn't okay to jump on them.

You're right, I don't know her backstory, but I do know it's a dickhead move to spank a child when he just wanted some attention and affection. That's all I need to know about this.

ASmallWonder · September 2013

Brandi Bee said:

Libby1978 said:

The only thing that situation warranted was a warning. Then if the behavior (talking back) continued a time-out. A four year old does not understand that his dad is in pain, all he understands is that he wanted some attention from his parent. And I'm sorry, when did it become "socially unacceptable" to crave affection from your parent??? That's where affection should come from freely, always!!
I feel sorry for you kid.

You're obviously not familiar with her backstory at all. And a four year old is absolutely able to understand that another person is in pain and it isn't okay to jump on them.

But what do kids want when they're hurt? Snuggles. Maybe he's a rough snuggler but maybe he just wanted to snuggle his hurting daddy.

NativeFloridian · September 2013

Libby1978 said:

Brandi Bee said:

Libby1978 said:

The only thing that situation warranted was a warning. Then if the behavior (talking back) continued a time-out. A four year old does not understand that his dad is in pain, all he understands is that he wanted some attention from his parent. And I'm sorry, when did it become "socially unacceptable" to crave affection from your parent??? That's where affection should come from freely, always!!
I feel sorry for you kid.

You're obviously not familiar with her backstory at all. And a four year old is absolutely able to understand that another person is in pain and it isn't okay to jump on them.

You're right, I don't know her backstory, but I do know it's a dickhead move to spank a child when he just wanted some attention and affection. That's all I need to know about this.

Yeah, man, no backstory necessary to gauge how inappropriate pretty much every part of the story was. The kid didn't need to be punished, the adults need to take accountability for their own attitudes in this. Dad was tired and sore so he expected a small child to be responsible for making him more comfortable and got mad when the kid lashed out because he was getting reprimanded instead of cuddled.

The grandma is a drama queen and OP needs to put her foot down and tell her mom to fucking stop.

MrsJakes · September 2013

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

Smootchy · September 2013

your mom was wrong and out of line.

I'm glad to see that you, DH & lo are going therapy. I'm not sure what your back story is or what problems your lo has but a kid wanting to climb on their parent is normal. A kid back talking like that is not. ...well, not acceptable IMO anyway.

NativeFloridian · September 2013

MrsJakes said:

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

He's four, he's not an adult. Kids at four don't have sufficiently developed self-control to stop themselves from doing what the fuck they want sometimes. As much as we think they should have the ability to listen and understand boundaries at four, they actually don't. They're beginning to, but they don't understand the need for boundaries. It's a fact.

So I continue to believe that dad could have diffused the situation by getting the fuck up and scooping up his boy for five goddamn minutes. It would have been way less stressful than what happened in reality and I HIGHLY doubt it would have caused his son to forever believe that boundaries aren't important.

And mom could have prevented their son from flipping out about grandma by telling grandma to GTFO when she first got all dramatic and threatened to leave.

MrsJakes · September 2013

NativeFloridian said:

MrsJakes said:

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

He's four, he's not an adult. Kids at four don't have sufficiently developed self-control to stop themselves from doing what the fuck they want sometimes. As much as we think they should have the ability to listen and understand boundaries at four, they actually don't. They're beginning to, but they don't understand the need for boundaries. It's a fact.

So I continue to believe that dad could have diffused the situation by getting the fuck up and scooping up his boy for five goddamn minutes. It would have been way less stressful than what happened in reality and I HIGHLY doubt it would have caused his son to forever believe that boundaries aren't important.

And mom could have prevented their son from flipping out about grandma by telling grandma to GTFO when she first got all dramatic and threatened to leave.

Would it have been less stressful? Absolutely. No denying that. The difference is he asked him to stop doing something, and he continued to do it. Sometimes we need space. The dad needed his space in that moment for a good reason. They gave the child an alternative choice, and he refused. If the dad is going to be in pain for a while (I'm not sure what his issue is) then the child needs to learn that he can't be jumping on dad whenever he wants. I feel like my 3 year old could grasp this concept.

NativeFloridian · September 2013

MrsJakes said:

NativeFloridian said:

MrsJakes said:

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

He's four, he's not an adult. Kids at four don't have sufficiently developed self-control to stop themselves from doing what the fuck they want sometimes. As much as we think they should have the ability to listen and understand boundaries at four, they actually don't. They're beginning to, but they don't understand the need for boundaries. It's a fact.

So I continue to believe that dad could have diffused the situation by getting the fuck up and scooping up his boy for five goddamn minutes. It would have been way less stressful than what happened in reality and I HIGHLY doubt it would have caused his son to forever believe that boundaries aren't important.

And mom could have prevented their son from flipping out about grandma by telling grandma to GTFO when she first got all dramatic and threatened to leave.

Would it have been less stressful? Absolutely. No denying that. The difference is he asked him to stop doing something, and he continued to do it. Sometimes we need space. The dad needed his space in that moment for a good reason. They gave the child an alternative choice, and he refused. If the dad is going to be in pain for a while (I'm not sure what his issue is) then the child needs to learn that he can't be jumping on dad whenever he wants. I feel like my 3 year old could grasp this concept.

In this instance there was no reason to go there. There are a lot of more important and pressing reasons to punish a child for being willful, I don't feel like "you won't listen when I say to get off of me" is a good reason. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

The parents were being dicks. I really give no fucks if you want to be contrary about it.

[Deleted User] · September 2013

If you're spanking for this, you're spanking too much.

It's going to lose any (in)effectiveness.

Princess_Lily · September 2013

DS does understand as far as I'm aware, and just refuses to listen - he pushes more than other children his age - but I'm not a doctor. DS is also not one to just "lie down" accept a rule or consequence, he is quite oppositional and is known to push to get what he wants, no holds bard.

For example, this morning he turned on the computer which he knows he is not allowed to touch. I told him, "DS, I told you not to touch this. If you will do it again, you will go to time out." He turned it on again, as soon as it was turned off. I said, "Let go." Predictibly he dropped to the floor, refusing to move. I had to pick him up under the shoulders, all 45lbs. and put him in timeout. When I got to eye level to explain why he was placed there he tried to kick my belly area, or step on my lap (I was kneeling). For 4 min, he refused to sit on the mat, yelling at me, hitting walls... its behavior that shows in classes too, biting/kicking his teachers, etc. Nothing is working, but we are trying to do the best we can and be on the same page.

We are also seeking help from a psych to see if this is just typical stuff, or he needs some extra help. This whole week, he's been pretty tough and a lot is going on; this week has been emotionally taxing on everyone involved.

thetheisens · September 2013

Princess_Lily said:

I say respectfully while there may be some disagreement to the way DH handled DS in this situation in regards to whether to spank or not, in all honesty my mother would still find fault in the discipline techniques of a simple timeout and make her displeasure known to everyone around her, the end results would still be the same had DS been placed into a timeout and not taken to his room. We have placed him into timeouts before, and she still reacts the same. She doesn't like DS being punished in any form when she is present - especially when DH is doing the punishing. Why? I have no clue. When I punish, she tries to override my parenting in front of DS, not every time we see her either, its very inconsistent.

In addition while a child's talking back or forcing oneself physically onto another when its not allowed/wanted may be typical defiance of a 4yo (and I agree) it still should never be tolerated because that isn't a socially acceptable form of seeking affection from another.

Neither is spanking someone when they are doing something that annoys you. He was being punished for violating his dad's personal space by then having his own personal space violated by being spanked? It is not a good form of punishment in this situation and you are reinforcing the idea of physically forcing yourself onto another person. Yes, you could have handled the situation in a whole differently. You have the choice whether or not to argue with your mother loud enough for your child to hear. Diffuse the situation and speak to her later when your child is not present. You are creating a very chaotic environment for a child that you already said had issues with behavior.

Libby1978 · September 2013

thetheisens said:

Princess_Lily said:

I say respectfully while there may be some disagreement to the way DH handled DS in this situation in regards to whether to spank or not, in all honesty my mother would still find fault in the discipline techniques of a simple timeout and make her displeasure known to everyone around her, the end results would still be the same had DS been placed into a timeout and not taken to his room. We have placed him into timeouts before, and she still reacts the same. She doesn't like DS being punished in any form when she is present - especially when DH is doing the punishing. Why? I have no clue. When I punish, she tries to override my parenting in front of DS, not every time we see her either, its very inconsistent.

In addition while a child's talking back or forcing oneself physically onto another when its not allowed/wanted may be typical defiance of a 4yo (and I agree) it still should never be tolerated because that isn't a socially acceptable form of seeking affection from another.

Neither is spanking someone when they are doing something that annoys you. He was being punished for violating his dad's personal space by then having his own personal space violated by being spanked? It is not a good form of punishment in this situation and you are reinforcing the idea of physically forcing yourself onto another person. Yes, you could have handled the situation in a whole differently. You have the choice whether or not to argue with your mother loud enough for your child to hear. Diffuse the situation and speak to her later when your child is not present. You are creating a very chaotic environment for a child that you already said had issues with behavior.

This is a good point. Maybe his behavior has something to do with his environment.

lollitots · September 2013

I'm not even going to get into the punishing the kid thing. Let's just say I agree with most everyone here that it was a bit extreme.

However, am I the only one that thinks that the DH getting into the argument will escalate things? I wouldn't want my DH getting into an argument between me and a family member. I can handle myself and I am guessing so can OP. By DH getting involved now there will be extra hard feelings and anger with another person to deal with. I know he was just "protecting" his wife in their home but he probably made things worse by doing it. Oh, and he needs to learn the term our home, not my home so they look like a united team if he is going to butt into arguments between mother/daughter.

Sometimes we have to distance ourselves from unsupportive people. Maybe it is time to see mom somewhere neutral or a little less if she can't respect our parenting decisions or keep her opinions to herself. She sounds like a bit of a drama queen.

NativeFloridian · September 2013

thetheisens said:

Princess_Lily said:

I say respectfully while there may be some disagreement to the way DH handled DS in this situation in regards to whether to spank or not, in all honesty my mother would still find fault in the discipline techniques of a simple timeout and make her displeasure known to everyone around her, the end results would still be the same had DS been placed into a timeout and not taken to his room. We have placed him into timeouts before, and she still reacts the same. She doesn't like DS being punished in any form when she is present - especially when DH is doing the punishing. Why? I have no clue. When I punish, she tries to override my parenting in front of DS, not every time we see her either, its very inconsistent.

In addition while a child's talking back or forcing oneself physically onto another when its not allowed/wanted may be typical defiance of a 4yo (and I agree) it still should never be tolerated because that isn't a socially acceptable form of seeking affection from another.

Neither is spanking someone when they are doing something that annoys you. He was being punished for violating his dad's personal space by then having his own personal space violated by being spanked? It is not a good form of punishment in this situation and you are reinforcing the idea of physically forcing yourself onto another person. Yes, you could have handled the situation in a whole differently. You have the choice whether or not to argue with your mother loud enough for your child to hear. Diffuse the situation and speak to her later when your child is not present. You are creating a very chaotic environment for a child that you already said had issues with behavior.

I have agree with @thetheisens, and I will add that there is PLENTY of time to teach kids about respecting personal space, and there are a lot more respectful, tactful, and gentle ways to do so.

Spapeggy · September 2013

I sp

MrsJakes said:

NativeFloridian said:

MrsJakes said:

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

He's four, he's not an adult. Kids at four don't have sufficiently developed self-control to stop themselves from doing what the fuck they want sometimes. As much as we think they should have the ability to listen and understand boundaries at four, they actually don't. They're beginning to, but they don't understand the need for boundaries. It's a fact.

So I continue to believe that dad could have diffused the situation by getting the fuck up and scooping up his boy for five goddamn minutes. It would have been way less stressful than what happened in reality and I HIGHLY doubt it would have caused his son to forever believe that boundaries aren't important.

And mom could have prevented their son from flipping out about grandma by telling grandma to GTFO when she first got all dramatic and threatened to leave.

Would it have been less stressful? Absolutely. No denying that. The difference is he asked him to stop doing something, and he continued to do it. Sometimes we need space. The dad needed his space in that moment for a good reason. They gave the child an alternative choice, and he refused. If the dad is going to be in pain for a while (I'm not sure what his issue is) then the child needs to learn that he can't be jumping on dad whenever he wants. I feel like my 3 year old could grasp this concept.
My 2 almost 3 year old grasped the concept when dh had his procedure and was very careful. We asked him to be and told him each time he went to dh. So I think for sure a 4 year old can get this. And the kid wasn't listening. Not that he was in trouble for love but for not listening.

Spapeggy · September 2013

Spapeggy said:
I sp
MrsJakes said:

NativeFloridian said:

MrsJakes said:

They asked her son a couple different times to stop climbing on daddy. They even explained why, and he still didn't do it. He's old enough at four to listen and to understand boundaries. I don't think he should get in trouble for wanting attention from his daddy, but I do think he needed to get in trouble for not listening. He could have gotten his daddy's attention by sitting beside him and snuggling like they asked.

He's four, he's not an adult. Kids at four don't have sufficiently developed self-control to stop themselves from doing what the fuck they want sometimes. As much as we think they should have the ability to listen and understand boundaries at four, they actually don't. They're beginning to, but they don't understand the need for boundaries. It's a fact.

So I continue to believe that dad could have diffused the situation by getting the fuck up and scooping up his boy for five goddamn minutes. It would have been way less stressful than what happened in reality and I HIGHLY doubt it would have caused his son to forever believe that boundaries aren't important.

And mom could have prevented their son from flipping out about grandma by telling grandma to GTFO when she first got all dramatic and threatened to leave.

Would it have been less stressful? Absolutely. No denying that. The difference is he asked him to stop doing something, and he continued to do it. Sometimes we need space. The dad needed his space in that moment for a good reason. They gave the child an alternative choice, and he refused. If the dad is going to be in pain for a while (I'm not sure what his issue is) then the child needs to learn that he can't be jumping on dad whenever he wants. I feel like my 3 year old could grasp this concept.

My 2 almost 3 year old grasped the concept when dh had his procedure and was very careful. We asked him to be and told him each time he went to dh. So I think for sure a 4 year old can get this. And the kid wasn't listening. Not that he was in trouble for love but for not listening.

jennygirlmt · September 2013

I guess my confusion is, if you have a child who has violent tendencies why would you teach him to not hurt/hit/kick/bite with hitting? I doubt your psychiatrist will agree that situation was handled properly. I really hope they give you some advice on positive discipline and ways to encourage good behavior.

I don't know all the specifics of your situation and I'm sure it's hard. But my 3 year old yells at me when I tell her she is getting a time out. So it's not a completely abnormal behavior for a child.

Kitiara5512 · September 2013

Holy fucking wall of text.

And sorry, any question you had got lost in the tl;dr and the fact that any of you thinks spanking is in anyway okay. I feel like shit the one time I got super frustrated and scared (ran off at mall and I couldn't find him) and popped C on the butt twice through a diaper. I couldn't imagine using that even as an all else fails method for discipline, especially considering that other than the tough tone, YH didn't bother trying jack shit else before heading off to smack your kid around. Oh, wait, spank. Except that to a kid it is still someone bigger than him using his physical power and size to beat him. Jesus fucking Christ, what the hell is wrong with you?

pandaglitter · September 2013

I think using spanking as the initial punishment (and at all) for a child who has difficulty controlling emotions and with reactions is a horrible idea. No wonder he throws fits and tries to hit you when you put him in time out and he's told no. Obviously it's really frustrating when time outs aren't working and your child won't listen, I would be extremely upset and frustrated if my daughter did the same thing (with the computer) and then threw a tantrum when she was put in time out, but I think what you should be discussing with your therapists are some other methods of discipline because the current ones aren't working.

Maybe positive reinforcement? Everything seems so negative. Maybe try encouraging him to listen by giving him incentives like good marble jars vs bad marble jars (he puts marbles from the bad jar to good when he listens and then gets a reward when it's full). That worked really well when my daughter was four. I mean I don't know your situation and I'm sure you've tried many things, but I think positive reinforcement for children who are very emotional and have strong negative reactions could be more effective (could, not for sure).

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