Sort of a vent, sleep training related

NoeK · August 2013

Nicb13 said:

NoeK said:

I understand what you mean and I am not trying to rip on anyone because I know how that feels. I cannot know how a baby feels for sure only, how it seems. All I know for sure is when my own LO cries for me, my heart literally aches, so I personally could not let him cry it out. I may over empathize when it comes to babies but I literally don't know how to be any other way.

That was a very heart felt response and one that I can relate to. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with as a parent. We are lucky enough to be able to make those choices for our children.
Don't get me wrong, I love a nice heated internet debate but I think sleep training and maybe breast feeding are 2 strong topics that end up just hurting other parents. That's just the way it is I suppose.
I agree,we all have our children's best interest at heart. I appreciate your point of view and the way you presented it.

MagickalNarwhal · August 2013

I want to respond to the idea that CIO can never be for the kids benefit. My son was the worst sleeper ever. From 2 weeks to 7 months he never got more than 12 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period, and it was usually closer to 10. He took less than 10 naps in that time that lasted longer than 45 min. He woke from every sleep session crying or screaming. He was miserable most of the time - constantly overtired. I read NCSS. We hired a sleep coach. I tried cosleeping. I tried every non-CIO method I could find to get him better sleep and nothing worked. I didn't give a HOOT about night wakings... In fact I'm still fine going in to him when he wakes in the night now at 18 mo, which he does 3 or 4 times a week. I never cared about my kid STTN, or about dropping night feeds. I wanted to help him get the sleep that he needed.

I used to weep when I'd read about CIO before I has my son. I couldn't imagine having a kid if you weren't willing to be a little sleep deprived. I thought it was selfish and cruel. Then when my son was 7 mo I found myself tearfully and reluctantly going ahead w a modified version of CIO (check/console at increasing intervals without picking him up, and the intervals started with 1 min, 2 min, 3 min and were never longer than 10 min). And I'm really glad I did. He started sleeping better and for the first time in his life was getting 12.5 to 13 hrs in a 24 hr period. He was SO much happier. Yeah it SUCKED for 2 nights. But I do a lot of things as a parent that suck.

I'm an attached parent. I strongly believe in gentle child-led parenting. And I did CIO. I do not think that I damaged or abused my son. The bulk of the anti CIO research (actual peer reviewed hard data research) that I've seem has been about the detrimental effects of crying due to long term neglect, like what happens to kids in institutionalized settings. I have yet to find compelling research that short term modified CIO is MORE damaging to a developing child than chronic sleep deprivation.

I ate a lot of crow about sleep issues with my first. So I'm a lot less judgy about it now. Do I still want to puke when I read stuff on the 0-3 mo board about CIO? Yeah. Do I think a lot of people jump to CIO needlessly without trying other options first? Yeah. But I really don't give a crap now, outside of what I consider egregious (ie extinction w a 2 week old, ol school babywise etc). I do think a lot of people use a LOT of heavy, shaming language around sleep training and it's one thing that's really put me off about our local AP community. I know people think I abused my son and I'm so glad that I have the distance and the confidence as a parent to not let that crush me. But as a tender scared sleep deprived first time mom it really sucked.

musicalmama5 · August 2013

MagickalNarwhal said:

I want to respond to the idea that CIO can never be for the kids benefit. My son was the worst sleeper ever. From 2 weeks to 7 months he never got more than 12 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period, and it was usually closer to 10. He took less than 10 naps in that time that lasted longer than 45 min. He woke from every sleep session crying or screaming. He was miserable most of the time - constantly overtired. I read NCSS. We hired a sleep coach. I tried cosleeping. I tried every non-CIO method I could find to get him better sleep and nothing worked. I didn't give a HOOT about night wakings... In fact I'm still fine going in to him when he wakes in the night now at 18 mo, which he does 3 or 4 times a week. I never cared about my kid STTN, or about dropping night feeds. I wanted to help him get the sleep that he needed. I used to weep when I'd read about CIO before I has my son. I couldn't imagine having a kid if you weren't willing to be a little sleep deprived. I thought it was selfish and cruel. Then when my son was 7 mo I found myself tearfully and reluctantly going ahead w a modified version of CIO (check/console at increasing intervals without picking him up, and the intervals started with 1 min, 2 min, 3 min and were never longer than 10 min). And I'm really glad I did. He started sleeping better and for the first time in his life was getting 12.5 to 13 hrs in a 24 hr period. He was SO much happier. Yeah it SUCKED for 2 nights. But I do a lot of things as a parent that suck. I'm an attached parent. I strongly believe in gentle child-led parenting. And I did CIO. I do not think that I damaged or abused my son. The bulk of the anti CIO research (actual peer reviewed hard data research) that I've seem has been about the detrimental effects of crying due to long term neglect, like what happens to kids in institutionalized settings. I have yet to find compelling research that short term modified CIO is MORE damaging to a developing child than chronic sleep deprivation. I ate a lot of crow about sleep issues with my first. So I'm a lot less judgy about it now. Do I still want to puke when I read stuff on the 0-3 mo board about CIO? Yeah. Do I think a lot of people jump to CIO needlessly without trying other options first? Yeah. But I really don't give a crap now, outside of what I consider egregious (ie extinction w a 2 week old, ol school babywise etc). I do think a lot of people use a LOT of heavy, shaming language around sleep training and it's one thing that's really put me off about our local AP community. I know people think I abused my son and I'm so glad that I have the distance and the confidence as a parent to not let that crush me. But as a tender scared sleep deprived first time mom it really sucked.

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm sure most of us in your situation would have done the exact same thing. Parenting is all about tough decisions, and it sounds like you really exhausted every other method before going to CIO, so BRAVA to you. You must be a strong lady fo realz.

MyNameWasTaken · August 2013

Well, I mostly just lurk here, but thought I'd throw in a little perspective as well. I bed-shared with DD from the night she was born til around 9 months. She was exclusively breastfed, and no where near sttn. Our sleeping arrangement was fine for about the first 7 months, because I actually got pretty good sleep, and DD was a happy, thriving baby. Then I started getting pinched nerves in my neck. I mean, viciously painful ones, ones that severely limited my movement. OTC pain relief was a joke, and being a SAHM, I wasn't comfortable with taking stronger drugs while being solely responsible for DD all day. I'd eventually work out a pinched nerve, only to get another one in a couple of days. This went on for several weeks, and it was because I was sleeping in the same position next to DD all night, every night. Further, it was to the point where DD, DH, and I were all keeping each other up all night, so none of us were getting sleep. DD was overtired, cranky, napping horribly, and getting about 7-11 hrs total of sleep in a 24 hr period.

So, we tried NCSS. I'd used it before just to help establish a bedtime routine with great success, but did it help us get anywhere with crib transition? Not even. In our situation, we needed a quicker solution, so we CIO. It sucked; one of us actually stayed in the room with her the whole time, soothing her and holding her hand til she went to sleep, but it was still awful. After 4 days, I could nurse and rock her to a drowsy state, and then lay her in the crib; I'd stand there for a few minutes rubbing her hand or her cheek, she'd give me little sleepy grins, and pass out. I still do this every night. If she needs me there with her to go to sleep til she's 18, so be it. The point was 100% to get her to sleep in the crib beside the bed, instead of in the bed with me. She went from sleeping only 7-11 hrs a day to sleeping 14 hrs a day, is once more a happy, easy-going baby, and I haven't had a pinched nerve since.

Like I said, I never did care one bit about sttn; she still gets up 3 times a night to nurse. I'm content to let her drop her night wakings as she sees fit. I didn't post this to netbattle, I'm just showing that nothing is black/white, cookie-cutter perfect, or one-mold-fits-all, and your best intentions sometimes flip you bird.

SarahandSam2007 · August 2013

I appreciate the perspectives, but I also feel like they are presented as if to say "just you wait, you never know what you're going to have to do as a parent." I'm sure I will have those moments, but not as they relate to sleep.

I will never CIO. I just believe there is always another solution--and it might not be one that I can think of on my own. I would come here for suggestions or go to the Kelly Mom breastfeeding support page on Facebook for help. Again, it's a non-negotiable for me.

opheliainwaders · August 2013

MyNameWasTaken said:
Well, I mostly just lurk here, but thought I'd throw in a little perspective as well. I bed-shared with DD from the night she was born til around 9 months. She was exclusively breastfed, and no where near sttn. Our sleeping arrangement was fine for about the first 7 months, because I actually got pretty good sleep, and DD was a happy, thriving baby. Then I started getting pinched nerves in my neck. I mean, viciously painful ones, ones that severely limited my movement. OTC pain relief was a joke, and being a SAHM, I wasn't comfortable with taking stronger drugs while being solely responsible for DD all day. I'd eventually work out a pinched nerve, only to get another one in a couple of days. This went on for several weeks, and it was because I was sleeping in the same position next to DD all night, every night. Further, it was to the point where DD, DH, and I were all keeping each other up all night, so none of us were getting sleep. DD was overtired, cranky, napping horribly, and getting about 7-11 hrs total of sleep in a 24 hr period.

So, we tried NCSS. I'd used it before just to help establish a bedtime routine with great success, but did it help us get anywhere with crib transition? Not even. In our situation, we needed a quicker solution, so we CIO. It sucked; one of us actually stayed in the room with her the whole time, soothing her and holding her hand til she went to sleep, but it was still awful. After 4 days, I could nurse and rock her to a drowsy state, and then lay her in the crib; I'd stand there for a few minutes rubbing her hand or her cheek, she'd give me little sleepy grins, and pass out. I still do this every night. If she needs me there with her to go to sleep til she's 18, so be it. The point was 100% to get her to sleep in the crib beside the bed, instead of in the bed with me. She went from sleeping only 7-11 hrs a day to sleeping 14 hrs a day, is once more a happy, easy-going baby, and I haven't had a pinched nerve since.

Like I said, I never did care one bit about sttn; she still gets up 3 times a night to nurse. I'm content to let her drop her night wakings as she sees fit. I didn't post this to netbattle, I'm just showing that nothing is black/white, cookie-cutter perfect, or one-mold-fits-all, and your best intentions sometimes flip you bird.

I think this is actually a really good example of where we're condidering CIO to mean different things. The fact that you guys sat with LO, held her hand, and soothed her to me makes what you did not really CIO? Not that it wasn't tough for you! I don't want to make light of what was hard, but it sounds like you found a way to do this that didn't involve leaving your daughter alone to cry, which is the facet of CIO that really gets my hackles up

JJ_13 · August 2013

gulickr said:

Well, I mostly just lurk here, but thought I'd throw in a little perspective as well. I bed-shared with DD from the night she was born til around 9 months. She was exclusively breastfed, and no where near sttn. Our sleeping arrangement was fine for about the first 7 months, because I actually got pretty good sleep, and DD was a happy, thriving baby. Then I started getting pinched nerves in my neck. I mean, viciously painful ones, ones that severely limited my movement. OTC pain relief was a joke, and being a SAHM, I wasn't comfortable with taking stronger drugs while being solely responsible for DD all day. I'd eventually work out a pinched nerve, only to get another one in a couple of days. This went on for several weeks, and it was because I was sleeping in the same position next to DD all night, every night. Further, it was to the point where DD, DH, and I were all keeping each other up all night, so none of us were getting sleep. DD was overtired, cranky, napping horribly, and getting about 7-11 hrs total of sleep in a 24 hr period.

So, we tried NCSS. I'd used it before just to help establish a bedtime routine with great success, but did it help us get anywhere with crib transition? Not even. In our situation, we needed a quicker solution, so we CIO. It sucked; one of us actually stayed in the room with her the whole time, soothing her and holding her hand til she went to sleep, but it was still awful. After 4 days, I could nurse and rock her to a drowsy state, and then lay her in the crib; I'd stand there for a few minutes rubbing her hand or her cheek, she'd give me little sleepy grins, and pass out. I still do this every night. If she needs me there with her to go to sleep til she's 18, so be it. The point was 100% to get her to sleep in the crib beside the bed, instead of in the bed with me. She went from sleeping only 7-11 hrs a day to sleeping 14 hrs a day, is once more a happy, easy-going baby, and I haven't had a pinched nerve since.

Like I said, I never did care one bit about sttn; she still gets up 3 times a night to nurse. I'm content to let her drop her night wakings as she sees fit. I didn't post this to netbattle, I'm just showing that nothing is black/white, cookie-cutter perfect, or one-mold-fits-all, and your best intentions sometimes flip you bird.
I think this is actually a really good example of where we're condidering CIO to mean different things. The fact that you guys sat with LO, held her hand, and soothed her to me makes what you did not really CIO? Not that it wasn't tough for you! I don't want to make light of what was hard, but it sounds like you found a way to do this that didn't involve leaving your daughter alone to cry, which is the facet of CIO that really gets my hackles up

I totally agree. When I say "CIO" I mean that a child was left alone to cry by herself or with "rules" like "no touching, no picking up, etc.". I actually don't think PP did "cry it out". I think she found a way to teach her child a new skill (putting herself to sleep) while staying with her, comforting, holding, and being "there" for her child. I realize that there are people for whom this would still mean "CIO" and who think that this is a travesty of parenting, but to me, the PP did what was best for her family under the circumstances.

SarahandSam2007 · August 2013

JJ_13 said:

gulickr said:

Well, I mostly just lurk here, but thought I'd throw in a little perspective as well. I bed-shared with DD from the night she was born til around 9 months. She was exclusively breastfed, and no where near sttn. Our sleeping arrangement was fine for about the first 7 months, because I actually got pretty good sleep, and DD was a happy, thriving baby. Then I started getting pinched nerves in my neck. I mean, viciously painful ones, ones that severely limited my movement. OTC pain relief was a joke, and being a SAHM, I wasn't comfortable with taking stronger drugs while being solely responsible for DD all day. I'd eventually work out a pinched nerve, only to get another one in a couple of days. This went on for several weeks, and it was because I was sleeping in the same position next to DD all night, every night. Further, it was to the point where DD, DH, and I were all keeping each other up all night, so none of us were getting sleep. DD was overtired, cranky, napping horribly, and getting about 7-11 hrs total of sleep in a 24 hr period.

So, we tried NCSS. I'd used it before just to help establish a bedtime routine with great success, but did it help us get anywhere with crib transition? Not even. In our situation, we needed a quicker solution, so we CIO. It sucked; one of us actually stayed in the room with her the whole time, soothing her and holding her hand til she went to sleep, but it was still awful. After 4 days, I could nurse and rock her to a drowsy state, and then lay her in the crib; I'd stand there for a few minutes rubbing her hand or her cheek, she'd give me little sleepy grins, and pass out. I still do this every night. If she needs me there with her to go to sleep til she's 18, so be it. The point was 100% to get her to sleep in the crib beside the bed, instead of in the bed with me. She went from sleeping only 7-11 hrs a day to sleeping 14 hrs a day, is once more a happy, easy-going baby, and I haven't had a pinched nerve since.

Like I said, I never did care one bit about sttn; she still gets up 3 times a night to nurse. I'm content to let her drop her night wakings as she sees fit. I didn't post this to netbattle, I'm just showing that nothing is black/white, cookie-cutter perfect, or one-mold-fits-all, and your best intentions sometimes flip you bird.
I think this is actually a really good example of where we're condidering CIO to mean different things. The fact that you guys sat with LO, held her hand, and soothed her to me makes what you did not really CIO? Not that it wasn't tough for you! I don't want to make light of what was hard, but it sounds like you found a way to do this that didn't involve leaving your daughter alone to cry, which is the facet of CIO that really gets my hackles up

I totally agree. When I say "CIO" I mean that a child was left alone to cry by herself or with "rules" like "no touching, no picking up, etc.". I actually don't think PP did "cry it out". I think she found a way to teach her child a new skill (putting herself to sleep) while staying with her, comforting, holding, and being "there" for her child. I realize that there are people for whom this would still mean "CIO" and who think that this is a travesty of parenting, but to me, the PP did what was best for her family under the circumstances.

Yes. Agreed.

MagickalNarwhal · August 2013

I didn't offer my perspective as a "just you wait". I specifically said that I wanted to share it to counter the idea that CIO is always done because the parents are selfish and never for the child's benefit. I really, really, REALLY don't care if you (the general you, no one specific) ever sleep train or not. And I really don't care how you feel about me sleep training. I *do* care how people talk to new struggling moms with intense shaming language, assumptions and blanket generalizations about how THEY feel about a situation that they themselves are not in, and I wish people could find a way to not do this.

And to the point made that "most would do the same in my situation" I know that isn't true. Many on this thread have made that very clear and again that is so 100% OK with me.

MagickalNarwhal · August 2013

I also wanted to add my experience because, to me, attachment parenting is about meeting the needs of my kid. And, as it turned out, my kid needed sleep and couldn't get there in the "typical" attachment parenting ways. I still consider myself an attached parent, even though I made a choice that most AP people find to be directly in conflict with their version of AP. I struggled a lot with the fact that doing sleep training might make me "less AP" but from where I sit now I wish I had cared a lot less about labels and about what other AP parents thought when I was making decisions about the welfare of my son.

limetango · August 2013

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling.

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

My thoughts EXACTLY! I personally think CIO should be illegal. I don't get it at all.

Meganequine · August 2013

I would never expect an infant or toddler to STTN; however I do think it's fine to want "limited" wake ups, or at least teach older children how to fall back asleep on their own.

Also just throwing this out there as a thought as it always irks me when people try to say adults don't STTN so why should kids. Sure, some don't, but some do. (Just like kids sleep differently.) As an adult, I have always sttn. With pregnancy as an exception, I never wake up to pee, get a drink, whatever. It always seems silly to me when people say I don't sleep through the night why should my child; I should flip that logic then and say my child should need to sttn since that's the type of sleeper I am. (He doesn't, but that's okay- he's not me.)

SarahandSam2007 · August 2013

Meganequine said:

I would never expect an infant or toddler to STTN; however I do think it's fine to want "limited" wake ups, or at least teach older children how to fall back asleep on their own.
Also just throwing this out there as a thought as it always irks me when people try to say adults don't STTN so why should kids. Sure, some don't, but some do. (Just like kids sleep differently.) As an adult, I have always sttn. With pregnancy as an exception, I never wake up to pee, get a drink, whatever. It always seems silly to me when people say I don't sleep through the night why should my child; I should flip that logic then and say my child should need to sttn since that's the type of sleeper I am. (He doesn't, but that's okay- he's not me.)

You're right some adults DO "STTN," or so they think. We all have sleep cycles, and at the end of each sleep cycle, every single one of us has some level of arousal. You may not wake up fully enough to be aware of this, but all of us do this as adults. Babies do this too, but their sleep cycles are much shorter than ours, meaning they have the potential to wake up many times per night. Sometime they do and sometimes they do not.

Have you ever woken in the night with your mind racing because you have so much to do, or a big interview the next day, or had a bad dream? Maybe you are not bothered by having to go to the bathroom or being hungry (as individuals we are all bothered by different things). Sometimes these things are enough to keep us awake between sleep cycles. Now, think about all the things going on with an infant--their development is rapid, they spend all day learning about the world, how to use their hands and legs, their teeth are coming through, they are learning to crawl, to walk, they have bad dreams, they are too cold, they are too hot, their diaper is dirty, they are hungry. All of this "stuff" going on often makes babies wake more at night.

You're right, it's not fair to compare infant sleep to adult sleep--but the concept of why a baby and an adult might wake is useful so we can relate to what our children are experiencing.

This article is incredibly insightful.

https://evolutionaryparenting.com/reasons-babies-cry-and-wake-at-night/

Meganequine · August 2013

SarahandSam2007 said:

Meganequine said:

I would never expect an infant or toddler to STTN; however I do think it's fine to want "limited" wake ups, or at least teach older children how to fall back asleep on their own.
Also just throwing this out there as a thought as it always irks me when people try to say adults don't STTN so why should kids. Sure, some don't, but some do. (Just like kids sleep differently.) As an adult, I have always sttn. With pregnancy as an exception, I never wake up to pee, get a drink, whatever. It always seems silly to me when people say I don't sleep through the night why should my child; I should flip that logic then and say my child should need to sttn since that's the type of sleeper I am. (He doesn't, but that's okay- he's not me.)

You're right some adults DO "STTN," or so they think. We all have sleep cycles, and at the end of each sleep cycle, every single one of us has some level of arousal. You may not wake up fully enough to be aware of this, but all of us do this as adults. Babies do this too, but their sleep cycles are much shorter than ours, meaning they have the potential to wake up many times per night. Sometime they do and sometimes they do not.

Have you ever woken in the night with your mind racing because you have so much to do, or a big interview the next day, or had a bad dream? Maybe you are not bothered by having to go to the bathroom or being hungry (as individuals we are all bothered by different things). Sometimes these things are enough to keep us awake between sleep cycles. Now, think about all the things going on with an infant--their development is rapid, they spend all day learning about the world, how to use their hands and legs, their teeth are coming through, they are learning to crawl, to walk, they have bad dreams, they are too cold, they are too hot, their diaper is dirty, they are hungry. All of this "stuff" going on often makes babies wake more at night.

You're right, it's not fair to compare infant sleep to adult sleep--but the concept of why a baby and an adult might wake is useful so we can relate to what our children are experiencing.

This article is incredibly insightful.

https://evolutionaryparenting.com/reasons-babies-cry-and-wake-at-night/

I am fully aware of the idea of sleep cycles. I seriously never "wake up" between cycles. I don't consider that moment of arousal "waking up". The only exception is pregnancy and I suppose a bad dream now and then. I've never woken up because I was worried about something or my mind was racing.

I've actually done a lot of research and reading on infant sleep and agree with everything you said. I think it's important to understand all the reasons a baby might wake up and how long their average cycle is. Then as a parent you know how to best respond to their needs. You can still respond to a child's needs while helping them learn to transition more easily between sleep cycles. I just wanted to point out the faulty logic in comparing your baby's sleep to your own (adult sleep). Even if their sleep was similar to ours, children have their own personalities and patterns.

kcisthebombdotcom · August 2013

limetango said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling.

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

My thoughts EXACTLY! I personally think CIO should be illegal. I don't get it at all.

You're an idiot.

ETA: attitudes like these are exactly why attachment parenting gets such a bad rap.

MyNameWasTaken · August 2013

limetango said:

My thoughts EXACTLY! I personally think CIO should be illegal. I don't get it at all.

To the bolded; um, no. Just...no. That's ridiculous.

Anyway, to the previous poster who felt like I was saying "just you wait...", no, that's not what I was saying. There was a poster (sorry, forgot her name) who basically said those of us who CIO were only selfish moms who neglected our babies so we could sttn, and I was responding to that piece of nonsense. I had a hard time phrasing my response so that it didn't sound condescending, especially that last sentence. But if you want still want to take it that way, okay, but it wasn't my intent.

ETA: Clarity.

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