Sort of a vent, sleep training related

musicalmama5

DS is nowhere near sleeping through the night. And honestly, I don't really care. I've never been much of a sleeper through the night myself either, always having to get up at least once to pee, get a drink of water, or whatever. And from what I've researched, an infant waking at night to nurse is not a "problem", and it doesn't mean he's a "bad sleeper". It's actually quite normal and natural. That being said, some nights are harder than others, and some days I'm tired. On those days, I might complain to a friend. And I'm so sick of hearing about how I need to sleep train him. 

We actually almost did sleep train. DH was going to go in and try and soothe DS instead of me just nursing him. And that night when I was rocking him to sleep, I started crying just thinking about it. If my baby is crying and I know EXACTLY what will stop it and get him back to sleep, why on earth would I purposefully hold back that comfort from him?? 

Anyway, I mostly just want to know that there are others like me out there in the internet world.  

blush64

I don't sleep train. I see no reason to do it. I believe kids will learn to put themselves to sleep when they are ready and mature enough to do it, and at that point it comes naturally. I respect people who choose to sleep train when they do it in an acceptable manner but it's not something I find necessary. It's more work not to sleep train so I guess it's not as popular.

mysticl

This is the first time I've popped into this board.  I saw the title and just had to check it out.  My lo used to sleep through the night and then gave it up.  OP you verbalize my feelings on infant sleep almost exactly.  I have a friend who keeps trying to get my to let my kid cry it out.  She keeps telling me I need to let him cry for 3 nights and then he will sleep.  It worked for 2 out of her 3 kids.  One of the things I get hung up on is what if something is really wrong, like a wet diaper or a foot got stuck in the slats, etc.  One day I was babysitting that friend's youngest and she told me to let her cry herself to sleep for her nap.  Well, I couldn't stand more than about 2 minutes of the crying and it was upsetting my son.  So I went in to check on her, turns out she had a wet, dirty diaper.  

Mrs.AmyDylan

I'm not an in-your-face advocate of not sleep training. I very much believe that you do what works for you and your family. I absolutely cannot hear my daughter cry and not do something about soothing her. 

my parents still laugh about the first time they got up the courage to try CIO in the crib. I was 16mo. After two min of crying, I stopped. They were shaking their heads going, "we should have tried this sooner!". Another minute goes by and their bedroom door swings open and I crawl into bed with them, like usual. 

Sure, I get tired and wish DD slept through the night. However, I love her snuggles! I know that overall I'm getting better sleep than not bed sharing. Im also very fortunate to have a supportive mom that encourages me when I'm feeling overwhelmed or tired. 

Hugs to you and hope you enjoy some good rest with yummy baby snuggles!

blu-eyedwife

DH's coworkers told him all the time we'd need to sleep train. That no baby sleeps through the night on their own. It was hard on rough nights. But I'd remind him that those nights weren't terribly common, so they were probably for a reason. And sure enough, he started sleeping through the night on his own.

Emerald27

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

=Lee=B

We have no intention to let our daughter cry it out or otherwise 'sleep train'.  I do grumble about having to go in so often...but I wouldn't change it.  I have no idea how she does it but if I am in the room she is sound asleep...but if I sneak out she wakes within 5min.  How?  She wakes up lightly crying, I walk in and she lights up with the biggest smile. I give her soother and a kiss on the forehead and she instantly passes out.  I have resorted to bringing my laptop in her room and hanging out for the first 1-2 hrs till she is out long enough to stop waking.

Anyways, my friends have a boy 1 month younger than our daughter (so only 4.5months) their doctor told them it was time to cry it out (grrrr).  So they were all excited to try it this weekend.  I tried to gently comment there are books to help as I was worried they would literally just throw him in crib and leave and not go back.  I am not for cry it out sleep training but would rather they do the going in every few minutes route than just leaving. They didn't get the books.

Anyways, is it wrong of me to be happy when I got some extremely upset, panicked emails from her last night.  They will NEVER do that again.  The poor baby after like 20minutes was crying so hard, the dad ran in and grabbed the baby and the baby was so upset he threw up all over the dad, all over the floor.  The two of them went running, both bawling into the bathroom where the mom was having a shower.

They were all traumatized...so she nursed the baby into a coma and was sending me emails in the middle of the night hoping that her baby wouldn't remember it in the morning and that she hoped baby would forgive her etc.

It stressed me out thinking about the poor baby!  But part of me was so happy that it went so badly that both the mom and dad were traumatized into not trying it again.  The poor baby is still helpless and needs mom and dad to calm him.

Part of me wants to ask my daughters doctor in 2 weeks at her 6months appointment his thoughts on crying it out.  Just to see what he says, I have the feeling he wouldn't encourage it.  But, I am afraid to ask as I respect him and I think I'd be disappointed if he did encourage it!

Emerald27

Stories like that make me feel sick. I sincerely hope that she snuggled that baby all night long, and that they forget about sleep training. I think I've met my quota for TB today. Can't take anymore.

opheliainwaders

Oof. @Emerald27 I agree with you. I can't even listen to CIO stories without getting stressed and upset.

erbear

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

PipSqueak0313

erbear said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

If Emerald is on a high horse, I'll join her there. I am far from being a mommy martyr. I have made my share of parenting mistakes but that doesnt make CIO any less sickening to me.....the very thought of leaving a baby or young child to cry is cruel and unthinkable. For that matter, leaving my teenager or my adult dd to cry even today, without at least giving them a hug and an ear,is unthinkable. The older two at least can tell me what is bothering them.

Mrs.AmyDylan

erbear said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

Seriously? You are coming into an AP forum where the OP was looking for support on her decisions to not sleep train.  You mock and ridicule a regular poster for her views posted in an appropriate location and context. Shame on you. 

bullybutt

I'm very anti-CIO also.  I would rather eat hot dog turds than have to put my child through that sort of torture and yes, to me, it's torture. You are pretty much forcing an infant to fend for themselves during a time of needing comfort.  Most (and I say MOST because I can't think of an instance where it wasn't this case) people sleep train out of their own selfishness.  They want better sleep for themselves, they don't want to bedshare, baby needs to learn (really?), etc.   I have entertained the idea a few times when DS needed to constantly nurse through the night because of teething issues, but I quickly came back to reality and knew that it was just a phase and it was something that I would have to endure for his sake. Maybe I should diaper train him also and let him live in a filthy soiled diaper until he figures out that he needs to take it off and wipe his own a$$.

SarahandSam2007

erbear said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

Whoa.  The research IS on the anti-CIO side, by the way.  She's not being perfect, she's taken time to understand the needs of a baby. 

opheliainwaders

erbear said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

Wow, sounds like you're pretty uncomfortable with your own parenting choices, Captain Defensivepants. Do some research. Not everything in parenting is an opinion, and not every parent's choices are good, even if they're socially acceptable. CIO is one of those things.

Emerald27

As I said before, I'm all for parents doing what works best for them, their baby, and their family - on many issues. 

 Some are not negotiable, though. 

Other than abuse and neglect, I consider shaming a child, letting a child play with matches and other dangerous objects so that he "learns from experience", and CIO, to be non-negotiables. 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by stating my opinion. I did not mean to come across as a martyr or as though I think I'm better than any parent who is trying their best to do what's right for their child with the information they've been given. I am, however, going to stand my ground and say that CIO is never ok.

Emerald27

You are absolutely right. I tend to equate CIO and sleep training, which is absolutely not true. I should have been more specific.

opheliainwaders

Nicb13 said:

gulickr said:

erbear said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

Wow, sounds like you're pretty uncomfortable with your own parenting choices, Captain Defensivepants. Do some research. Not everything in parenting is an opinion, and not every parent's choices are good, even if they're socially acceptable. CIO is one of those things.

In defensive of @erbear, she didn't say that she did CIO and for you to say that "not every parent's choices are good" is absolutely, mind blowingly ridiculous to me. Parents have the freedom to make whatever choices they want for their children and who are you to say that those choices are "good" or not?  Parenting is hard enough as it is!

I just don't understand why people care so much what other parents do when it comes to how they feed, help their kids to sleep or where they sleep. I really don't. This board is very informative and there are often some really great threads but when they go south, some of the posts just make me
shake my head.

To be fair, the research on CIO really is pretty unequivocal. When there really is a lack of data, or a set of options where the outcomes are roughly equivalent, or a parent makes a choice for a health reason, etc., then I would most definitely assert their right to choose among those options without judgment. That said, there are some things that are unequivocally not good, and I think they deserve our judgment, because it's how a society changes norms and customs that are dangerous or bad.

Also, I'm only human, and erbear's tone really bugged me

musicalmama5

Wow, ladies! I leave TB for 24 hours and look at all this!

That said, I posted this on this board because I knew y'all would understand. My birth club, probably not so much (although I do love my birth club!). We're still working out the kinks in our sleeping arrangements, but I have a feeling better nights are around the corner. Thinking of getting a bigger bed (we have the same bed that I've had since college, so I feel that this might be a good time to get a new bed anyway) or a bedrail like Emerald mentioned to me once before. 

As an aside, I always get compliments on how big and healthy my baby is and how interactive, smiley, and bright he is. Those comments affirm my parenting decisions like nothing else could!

st.augbride

While I personally am not a fan of CIO, not everyone does it because they are being selfish. With ds, our ped had the "CIO conversation" with us around his 6 month visit and gave us a handout that it was time to do it and that if we didn't, he wouldn't have the sleep he needed for proper brain development. Well, ds was born early and had developmental issues as it was, so she truly scared the you know what out of us. I hated the thought of CIO, but I was scared that I was being selfish to NOT do it because of what she said! Anyhow, we attempted it and it was horrible. We stopped and he eventually started STTN on his own at 14 months. When she gave me the same talk for dd at her 4 month apt (I'm talking full out extinction CIO), I just smiled and nodded knowing better for us now.

That said, I am pretty confident that while some parental decisions are better than others, kids that are subjected to CIO training still turn into normal, functional, happy adults with solid relationships just as well as kids who did not have CIO. I'd like to think that humans as a species can overcome dumb things parents do. My parents are very loving, but man did they mess up a lot! I think I'm ok ; )

erbear

I think you are misunderstanding. I don't give a crap what other parents do with their kids. AP to me is doing what's right for MY kids, so I don't see the need to throw a judgy post out there. Shrug. You don't have to agree with me; that's kind of the point.

erbear

Nicb13 said:

Emerald27 said:

As I said before, I'm all for parents doing what works best for them, their baby, and their family - on many issues. Some are not negotiable, though. Other than abuse and neglect, I consider shaming a child, letting a child play with matches and other dangerous objects so that he "learns from experience", and CIO, to be non-negotiables. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by stating my opinion. I did not mean to come across as a martyr or as though I think I'm better than any parent who is trying their best to do what's right for their child with the information they've been given. I am, however, going to stand my ground and say that CIO is never ok.

It's all good. We all feel strongly about certain things. I never did CIO but I would never make someone feel bad for making the choice to do it. There is tons of research for both sides of that sleep training method and to be fair Emerald, you did say that you "think sleep training is cruel and would never advocate for it". Not CIO, but sleep training in general.

I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse and you do contribute a lot of great stuff on this board but it's those types of comments that just make other parents feel bad. It would be nice if everyone was confident in their decisions they've made for their children but it's really hard not to take that comment wrong and wonder "gee, did I do something terrible to my child?" No need to respond, just getting that out there.

This is what I was trying to say. You're more eloquent

FWIW, I've been on this board for years. I can't post all day every day because of work. I have two kids, one of whom was sleep trained around 18 months when she was still waking up every hour at night. We made the decision for us, as a family, that that was healthy for no one, and I don't think it was cruel and unusual punishment. I'm not getting into a CIO argument on here though, just stating that when parents are judged openly for decisions that they make in the best interest of their families, it's pretty frustrating.

Meganequine

OP-  You're not alone.  There are lots like you. .  even if it's just "internet friends".  Most of us have been.  Hang in there, if you are happy (most of the time) with how things are then leave it be.  We all need to complain now and then.

In regard to the "sleep training" conversation: We never did CIO with my son.  However, I'm not opposed to gentle sleep training (non CIO), but I hate that phrase.  I believe you need to respond to your baby's needs but also your own.  If you are not getting enough sleep that's not healthy either.  Healthy babies need healthy moms. 

We did night wean my son around 8 months down to only nursing after thus and such time (I can't even remember what time that was. . .).  We always went in and soothed him when he woke but it got me more sleep because Dad could help more.  Right now I'm working with him on falling asleep "on his own" with mommy laying next to him (instead of rocking to sleep.)  I suppose that is a bit of sleep training, but will ever be CIO, in fact there is almost no crying involved.

 

opheliainwaders

st.augbride said:

While I personally am not a fan of CIO, not everyone does it because they are being selfish. With ds, our ped had the "CIO conversation" with us around his 6 month visit and gave us a handout that it was time to do it and that if we didn't, he wouldn't have the sleep he needed for proper brain development. Well, ds was born early and had developmental issues as it was, so she truly scared the you know what out of us. I hated the thought of CIO, but I was scared that I was being selfish to NOT do it because of what she said! Anyhow, we attempted it and it was horrible. We stopped and he eventually started STTN on his own at 14 months. When she gave me the same talk for dd at her 4 month apt (I'm talking full out extinction CIO), I just smiled and nodded knowing better for us now.

That said, I am pretty confident that while some parental decisions are better than others, kids that are subjected to CIO training still turn into normal, functional, happy adults with solid relationships just as well as kids who did not have CIO. I'd like to think that humans as a species can overcome dumb things parents do. My parents are very loving, but man did they mess up a lot! I think I'm ok ; )

Yikes! I'm glad you did what felt right to you in the end. I am side-eying your pedi a bit, but I'll let it drop

TiffanyBerry

I think "sleep training" ends up meaning some very different things when you do it with a four month old verses a 18 month old.  

I did some ridiculously slow and gentle "sleep training" (that was NOT CIO - either all at once or even extinction), but was the sort of thing where, for both my child and myself, we really did need her to start putting more effort in going to sleep without me staying the whole night.  Mind you, that means that it started when she was something lke 18mo, had stopped nursing to sleep, and I would leave the room for one or two minutes one or two times before coming back in to stay with her.  

It was a VERY (nearly two years) long progression to where we are no (which many people might still stay wasn't "good enough" since I lay with her for a while and sometimes I or DH goes back in).  And to me, that was still sleep training.  In the way that reading her books and teaching her the alphabet and making letters in the sand and asking her if she recgonizes her name is "reading training".  Small, gentle, appropriate steps that offer a small challenge, but set the kid up to succeed.  That sort of thing doesn't even come close to making sense on an infant.

SarahandSam2007

gulickr said:

gulickr said:

Emerald27 said:

I'm entirely opposed to sleep training. I think that LO's needs during the nighttime are just as valid as her needs during the daytime. And infant sleep patterns are so naturally different from ours: frequent waking is actually an important way in which SIDS is prevented, and frequent night nursing is good for development and keeps those tiny tummies full. Longer sleep stretches are unnatural...by waking frequently and needing to nurse frequently, baby assures that she won't be left alone (or so nature would have it).  

I think that sleep training is cruel and I would never advocate for it. Parenting makes you tired, but it is such a short time in our lives. We can take it. And before we know it, our little ones will STTN all on their own. STTN is a milestone just like sitting up or crawling. 

In many things I am a "do what works best for you, your baby, and your family" kinda gal, but not this. It makes me nauseous to hear stories about sleep training. CIO is my hot-button issue. I just can't take it. :P

Sounds like you are meeting your LO's needs so gently and lovingly, OP. Good job. Hang in there!

It must be hard being a perfect parent all the time. Are you ok up there on your high horse?

Sleep training, like every other parenting decision, is one that families have to make for themselves. CIO, don't CIO, bedshare until the kid is 18. It doesn't matter to anyone else what parenting decisions anyone else makes, and mommy martyrs like this make other people feel bad and don't really have a place in my world.

Wow, sounds like you're pretty uncomfortable with your own parenting choices, Captain Defensivepants. Do some research. Not everything in parenting is an opinion, and not every parent's choices are good, even if they're socially acceptable. CIO is one of those things.

In defensive of @erbear, she didn't say that she did CIO and for you to say that "not every parent's choices are good" is absolutely, mind blowingly ridiculous to me. Parents have the freedom to make whatever choices they want for their children and who are you to say that those choices are "good" or not?  Parenting is hard enough as it is!

I just don't understand why people care so much what other parents do when it comes to how they feed, help their kids to sleep or where they sleep. I really don't. This board is very informative and there are often some really great threads but when they go south, some of the posts just make me shake my head.

To be fair, the research on CIO really is pretty unequivocal. When there really is a lack of data, or a set of options where the outcomes are roughly equivalent, or a parent makes a choice for a health reason, etc., then I would most definitely assert their right to choose among those options without judgment. That said, there are some things that are unequivocally not good, and I think they deserve our judgment, because it's how a society changes norms and customs that are dangerous or bad. Also, I'm only human, and erbear's tone really bugged me

Oh my goodness, yes!  At what point will we stop fleeing to the land of "no judgment" and start thinking to ourselves, you know what, maybe the CIO  (although it "worked") was not the very best approach for my child--we can do better next time.  I do not think it's wrong to point out to parents that CIO might be harmful and that the research points to this.     
Even without the research, I wouldn't want to be left in a room to cry.  I wouldn't want my gramma left in a room to cry.  Why leave an infant alone to cry?  At the basic human level, doesn't it make sense that something that feels so bad MIGHT BE BAD? I will treat my baby the way I want to be treated.  The problem is our expectations of how infants ought to act, sleep, self-soothe and in general, adapt to a society that is not very baby-friendly.  There are a lot of compromises to be made it the spirit of balancing the needs of a baby with the needs of a family, but CIO is not the place for it.  Yeah, that's a judgment.  So be it.  Again, our job is to do better, not say that we did it before and believe that makes it okay.  

Jbosarge85

All of my friends with babies tell me to do CIO, my mom even tried the "Crying is good for babies it helps to strengthen their lungs." I admit I gave in and tried it once, after 5 min of crying ended up crying myself and ran in to grab her. Now she is sleep training herself, the last few nights she will wake up when we lay down together and cry so I put her in her crib (Which is right next to our bed) and the moment she touched the mattress she was asleep, and only woke up once to nurse. I actually miss bedsharing with her, but she wants to sleep in her crib. I am now convinced that when they are ready they will do it. My pediatrician has not mentioned sleep at all. The nurse asked me where she sleeps and I said with us, and all she said was well, with her age I'm sure it's fine, but you should know the best place is on her back in her crib.

Jbosarge85

st.augbride said:

While I personally am not a fan of CIO, not everyone does it because they are being selfish. With ds, our ped had the "CIO conversation" with us around his 6 month visit and gave us a handout that it was time to do it and that if we didn't, he wouldn't have the sleep he needed for proper brain development. Well, ds was born early and had developmental issues as it was, so she truly scared the you know what out of us. I hated the thought of CIO, but I was scared that I was being selfish to NOT do it because of what she said! Anyhow, we attempted it and it was horrible. We stopped and he eventually started STTN on his own at 14 months. When she gave me the same talk for dd at her 4 month apt (I'm talking full out extinction CIO), I just smiled and nodded knowing better for us now.

That said, I am pretty confident that while some parental decisions are better than others, kids that are subjected to CIO training still turn into normal, functional, happy adults with solid relationships just as well as kids who did not have CIO. I'd like to think that humans as a species can overcome dumb things parents do. My parents are very loving, but man did they mess up a lot! I think I'm ok ; )

My friend did CIO when her baby was 2 wks old and another friend when their baby was 3 months old and they were so proud that it only took a week of 45 min to an hour of crying. It made me want to cry

bullybutt

Oh my goodness, yes!  At what point will we stop fleeing to the land of "no judgment" and start thinking to ourselves, you know what, maybe the CIO  (although it "worked") was not the very best approach for my child--we can do better next time.  I do not think it's wrong to point out to parents that CIO might be harmful and that the research points to this.     
Even without the research, I wouldn't want to be left in a room to cry.  I wouldn't want my gramma left in a room to cry.  Why leave an infant alone to cry?  At the basic human level, doesn't it make sense that something that feels so bad MIGHT BE BAD? I will treat my baby the way I want to be treated.  The problem is our expectations of how infants ought to act, sleep, self-soothe and in general, adapt to a society that is not very baby-friendly.  There are a lot of compromises to be made it the spirit of balancing the needs of a baby with the needs of a family, but CIO is not the place for it.  Yeah, that's a judgment.  So be it.  Again, our job is to do better, not say that we did it before and believe that makes it okay.  

That's one of the smartest comments I've read in a long time.

PhieryBFly

bullybutt said:

Oh my goodness, yes!  At what point will we stop fleeing to the land of "no judgment" and start thinking to ourselves, you know what, maybe the CIO  (although it "worked") was not the very best approach for my child--we can do better next time.  I do not think it's wrong to point out to parents that CIO might be harmful and that the research points to this.     
Even without the research, I wouldn't want to be left in a room to cry.  I wouldn't want my gramma left in a room to cry.  Why leave an infant alone to cry?  At the basic human level, doesn't it make sense that something that feels so bad MIGHT BE BAD? I will treat my baby the way I want to be treated.  The problem is our expectations of how infants ought to act, sleep, self-soothe and in general, adapt to a society that is not very baby-friendly.  There are a lot of compromises to be made it the spirit of balancing the needs of a baby with the needs of a family, but CIO is not the place for it.  Yeah, that's a judgment.  So be it.  Again, our job is to do better, not say that we did it before and believe that makes it okay.  

That's one of the smartest comments I've read in a long time.

Agreed! I've been resisting the urge to pull out all the scientific studies about psychological and neurological damage caused by cry it out/abandonment types of behavior and this post summarizes the research (and basic humanity) very well!

stoneofthor

We did a form of CIO when my DS was 8 months. He no longer wanted to be rocked to sleep. Staying in the room with him or constantly going in also didn't work, it actually made him more upset. He cried for maybe 20 the first night and 5 the second night. Once he was asleep he was fine but it was starting to become a problem for HIM not being able to get to sleep initially . It was what worked best for HIM. I have other friends who bed share or lay next to their LO until they fall asleep. That's what works for THEM. CIO is damaging for newborns and I would never go any form of sleep training before 6-8 months. It is also damaging if a child is left to cry for hours and for days on end (ie children in orphanages). Sleep training your child is a personal choice and is usually dependant on your LOs personality. Most moms I know did a good deal of research on how to sleep train. I wanted to use the techniques I learned from NCSS but it didn't work for my son. I'm SMH that some of you can say such judgemental things about sleep training/CIO when you have no idea about what goes on in other people's lives.

kcisthebombdotcom

Emerald27 said:

As I said before, I'm all for parents doing what works best for them, their baby, and their family - on many issues. 

 Some are not negotiable, though. 

Other than abuse and neglect, I consider shaming a child, letting a child play with matches and other dangerous objects so that he "learns from experience", and CIO, to be non-negotiables. 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by stating my opinion. I did not mean to come across as a martyr or as though I think I'm better than any parent who is trying their best to do what's right for their child with the information they've been given. I am, however, going to stand my ground and say that CIO is never ok.

You are obviously very uneducated on development if you think CIO is always about the parents and that its never ok for a child. On the contrary, its necessary for some children. Sure, most kids will eventually learn to sleep through the night if left to their own devices. Some kids are just such poor sleepers that the lack of sleep impacts their development. They Are unable to emotionally regulate and spend much of their awake time miserable. Why would you let a child suffer like that in some attempt to avoid CIO? If you're got a kid who truly has poor sleep cycles you can try some no cry methods in an attempt to change things. They're not going to work for 100% of kids 100% of the time. Some parents do have to resort to CIO so their children can thrive developmentally and get the sleep they need to meet their developmental and emotional needs. Also your claim that science is on your side and sleep training is harmful isn't quite true. There's research supporting both sides. https://healthland.time.com/2012/09/10/its-o-k-to-let-babies-cry-it-out-at-bedtime/

SarahandSam2007

Emerald27 said:

As I said before, I'm all for parents doing what works best for them, their baby, and their family - on many issues. 

 Some are not negotiable, though. 

Other than abuse and neglect, I consider shaming a child, letting a child play with matches and other dangerous objects so that he "learns from experience", and CIO, to be non-negotiables. 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by stating my opinion. I did not mean to come across as a martyr or as though I think I'm better than any parent who is trying their best to do what's right for their child with the information they've been given. I am, however, going to stand my ground and say that CIO is never ok.

You are obviously very uneducated on development if you think CIO is always about the parents and that its never ok for a child. On the contrary, its necessary for some children. Sure, most kids will eventually learn to sleep through the night if left to their own devices. Some kids are just such poor sleepers that the lack of sleep impacts their development. They Are unable to emotionally regulate and spend much of their awake time miserable. Why would you let a child suffer like that in some attempt to avoid CIO? If you're got a kid who truly has poor sleep cycles you can try some no cry methods in an attempt to change things. They're not going to work for 100% of kids 100% of the time. Some parents do have to resort to CIO so their children can thrive developmentally and get the sleep they need to meet their developmental and emotional needs. Also your claim that science is on your side and sleep training is harmful isn't quite true. There's research supporting both sides. https://healthland.time.com/2012/09/10/its-o-k-to-let-babies-cry-it-out-at-bedtime/
How DOES CIO benefit the development of a child exactly?  Babies do not NEED to STTN to ensure proper development.  Last time I checked, they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED NOT to STTN.  I'm not sure I would be telling Emerald that she is uneducated about child development.  Most of us go to her first for advice, and she's usually dead-on. 
How many nights a week do YOU sleep through the night?  Last night, I woke up once to pee and once to eat...and my husband didn't look at me and say "Get back to bed!  It's not 7 AM yet!  You couldn't possibly have to use the bathroom or be hungry!" Again, unrealistic expectations of the baby and perhaps unrealistic expectations of what might be required of us as parents.   

NoeK

PhieryBFly said:

bullybutt said:

Oh my goodness, yes!  At what point will we stop fleeing to the land of "no judgment" and start thinking to ourselves, you know what, maybe the CIO  (although it "worked") was not the very best approach for my child--we can do better next time.  I do not think it's wrong to point out to parents that CIO might be harmful and that the research points to this.     
Even without the research, I wouldn't want to be left in a room to cry.  I wouldn't want my gramma left in a room to cry.  Why leave an infant alone to cry?  At the basic human level, doesn't it make sense that something that feels so bad MIGHT BE BAD? I will treat my baby the way I want to be treated.  The problem is our expectations of how infants ought to act, sleep, self-soothe and in general, adapt to a society that is not very baby-friendly.  There are a lot of compromises to be made it the spirit of balancing the needs of a baby with the needs of a family, but CIO is not the place for it.  Yeah, that's a judgment.  So be it.  Again, our job is to do better, not say that we did it before and believe that makes it okay.  

That's one of the smartest comments I've read in a long time.

Agreed! I've been resisting the urge to pull out all the scientific studies about psychological and neurological damage caused by cry it out/abandonment types of behavior and this post summarizes the research (and basic humanity) very well!

I am in total agreement. If I was upset and tearful and my husband heard me in the next room and KNEW I was upset but didn't bother to try to comfort me, I would think he was heartless, that he didn't care about my needs. I would try to reason with myself that maybe it was because he was busy or tired, but my feeling would still be hurt. My LO is not even capable of reasoning that mommy is tired or what have you. All he knows is that he is upset, scared, frustrated and ALONE and no one is helping him. Its cruel and I'm not going to do that to him. He doesn't need to comfort himself, he is 6 months not 16. And let me tell you if my 16 year old was friggin CRYING I would try to find out what was going on because I am his mother, this is the job I signed up for and I am honored to do it.

stoneofthor

It just seems hypocritical to me to be angry/frustrated at people for not respecting your choice to not sleep train and then turn around and judge people for making their own informed choices to sleep train.

stoneofthor

If you had read my previous post you would see that sleep training, for us, had nothing to do with night time wakings. For some people it's about the ability for their child to fall asleep at the beginning of the night, for others they have a child who wakes hourly and thus does not get quality sleep. Yes, some people are doing it wrong and for self serving reasons but most are choosing that path in order to meet their LOs needs. Please understand that many people who sleep train do it because it is important for their child's sleep and has nothing to do with expecting them to sleep like an adult. I like some of the aspects of AP which is why I like to check out this board, but I also recognize that I need to follow my son's personality to understand what works best for him. Sometimes an AP family may find that they need to sleep train, just like a baby might not like being worn or bedsharing may not work out.

kcisthebombdotcom

SarahandSam2007 said:

Emerald27 said:

As I said before, I'm all for parents doing what works best for them, their baby, and their family - on many issues. 

 Some are not negotiable, though. 

Other than abuse and neglect, I consider shaming a child, letting a child play with matches and other dangerous objects so that he "learns from experience", and CIO, to be non-negotiables. 

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by stating my opinion. I did not mean to come across as a martyr or as though I think I'm better than any parent who is trying their best to do what's right for their child with the information they've been given. I am, however, going to stand my ground and say that CIO is never ok.

You are obviously very uneducated on development if you think CIO is always about the parents and that its never ok for a child. On the contrary, its necessary for some children. Sure, most kids will eventually learn to sleep through the night if left to their own devices. Some kids are just such poor sleepers that the lack of sleep impacts their development. They Are unable to emotionally regulate and spend much of their awake time miserable. Why would you let a child suffer like that in some attempt to avoid CIO? If you're got a kid who truly has poor sleep cycles you can try some no cry methods in an attempt to change things. They're not going to work for 100% of kids 100% of the time. Some parents do have to resort to CIO so their children can thrive developmentally and get the sleep they need to meet their developmental and emotional needs. Also your claim that science is on your side and sleep training is harmful isn't quite true. There's research supporting both sides. https://healthland.time.com/2012/09/10/its-o-k-to-let-babies-cry-it-out-at-bedtime/
How DOES CIO benefit the development of a child exactly?  Babies do not NEED to STTN to ensure proper development.  Last time I checked, they are BIOLOGICALLY PROGRAMMED NOT to STTN.  I'm not sure I would be telling Emerald that she is uneducated about child development.  Most of us go to her first for advice, and she's usually dead-on. 
How many nights a week do YOU sleep through the night?  Last night, I woke up once to pee and once to eat...and my husband didn't look at me and say "Get back to bed!  It's not 7 AM yet!  You couldn't possibly have to use the bathroom or be hungry!" Again, unrealistic expectations of the baby and perhaps unrealistic expectations of what might be required of us as parents.   

They might not need to sleep through the night to ensure proper development, but I assure you if a 10 month old child is getting up every 45 minutes during the night that can absolutely impact their development and mood. Just because people turn to emerald for ap related advice it does not make her an expert on the needs of an infants brain.

aglenn

Oh, this debate never gets old around here...

As the mom of two *challenging* sleepers, I can tell you I have read all the books and research I could get my hands on.  At the end of the day, the truth I have found is that every situation is different because, hello, every baby is different.  I guarantee you could poll everyone on here who did "sleep train" and get a zillion different scenarios that fall within that umbrella.  I doubt any of them caused brain damage.

That said, I did not do real CIO with either of my kids.  Some would point the finger and say that's why they didn't sleep better and blame me for my exhaustion.  That is fine; they are entitled to their opinions.  From my perspective, CIO was not something that was going to work for my particular kids because they do not respond well to it.  They are not the type to eventually give up and go to sleep.  They get more and more upset and continue crying far beyond my ability to tolerate letting it continue.  However, they also are not brain damaged from getting up during the night. 

I think there are scare tactics on both sides; people will give you all kinds of warnings on what will happen if you do use CIO and what will happen if you don't.  My personal opinion on sleep is that you can do things to make kids sleep worse, by not providing an environment conducive to sleep, but there is little you can really do to make them sleep better/longer if they are not ready to do so.  Bottom line is that you know what feels right for your family and your kids, and if all else fails time will correct the problem.

NoeK

Nicb13 said:

stoneofthor said:

If you had read my previous post you would see that sleep training, for us, had nothing to do with night time wakings. For some people it's about the ability for their child to fall asleep at the beginning of the night, for others they have a child who wakes hourly and thus does not get quality sleep. Yes, some people are doing it wrong and for self serving reasons but most are choosing that path in order to meet their LOs needs. Please understand that many people who sleep train do it because it is important for their child's sleep and has nothing to do with expecting them to sleep like an adult. I like some of the aspects of AP which is why I like to check out this board, but I also recognize that I need to follow my son's personality to understand what works best for him. Sometimes an AP family may find that they need to sleep train, just like a baby might not like being worn or bedsharing may not work out.

I wasn't referring to your posts at all actually! Should have quoted the other person.

@NoeK said " If I was upset and tearful and my husband heard me in the next room and KNEW I was upset but didn't bother to try to comfort me, I would think he was heartless, that he didn't care about my needs".

I just don't see how you can compare how you would feel to how a baby "might" feel. I don't know, some of it seems off base to me and far reaching. BUT, with that being said, do what works for your family and chill on how much you rip on other parents.

I understand what you mean and I am not trying to rip on anyone because I know how that feels. I cannot know how a baby feels for sure only, how it seems. All I know for sure is when my own LO cries for me, my heart literally aches, so I personally could not let him cry it out. I may over empathize when it comes to babies but I literally don't know how to be any other way.

musicalmama5

OK, here's my two cents- and PP, I'm glad you brought up BFing- about judging other people's parenting decisions. While we can never completely understand what other parents are going through, I think it's safe to assume that we all (whether silently or loudly) judge other parents' decisions sometimes. BUT we don't have to be mean about it, for sure. And ripping into someone is never cool. That said, when scientific facts and research back up one's decisions (CIO and BFing come to mind...) then I think it's very good to have an open dialogue. I posted in the BFing board a while back about a friend of mine that chose not to BF because she didn't want saggy boobs, and I admitted that I do judge her for that decision. Boy, did I get flamed! But you know what, I stand by my judgement, because it's not cool to not even try and BF because you're afraid of saggy boobs. 

Anyway, this got totally off topic, so I'm going to stop. I'm at work anyway. :P

kcisthebombdotcom

I understand what you mean and I am not trying to rip on anyone because I know how that feels. I cannot know how a baby feels for sure only, how it seems. All I know for sure is when my own LO cries for me, my heart literally aches, so I personally could not let him cry it out. I may over empathize when it comes to babies but I literally don't know how to be any other way.

See, I can totally relate to you as a parent. I personally couldn't do CIO. However, there wasn't ever really a need to change my child's sleep patterns--I could handle getting up at night and the wake ups never had a negative impact on my child. I've seen a friend go through some real sleep issues with her child. Her son was constantly miserable, she was barely hanging on and it wasn't something that naturally resolved with time. She tried other things but eventually had to do CIO and it made her child a much happier kid and his development took off when he got the sleep he needed. I do think CIO is overused/used for the wrong reasons but I think it's beneficial for certain kids. Sometimes as a parent we need to do things that make us uncomfortable because its what's best for our child.