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Clicky: Do you support same sex marriage?
I'm making it yes or no. I know some people are in favor of 'unions' and other half-assed things. But I mean marriage just like DH and I have a marriage license. Should a same sex couple be afforded the same right. IYO
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Re: Clicky: Do you support same sex marriage?
lol. of course. then the little black kids who are gay just go directly to hell, right?
separation of church and state. Quit 'yer bit'chin' about it being against your religion...or "....the Bible states that marriage is to be between...."
do you know what the queers are doing to the soil!?!?
woah. I'd like to do battle with anyone brave enough to admit that they are bigots. bonus points if you hide your bigotry behind your religious beliefs!
let's go!!
it's all an undercover scheme to get us to lean to the right.
I think it is interesting that there are at least 5 people here who don't have enough balls to speak up for something that they believe so strongly...
probably strongly enough to vote against legislation that would provide equal rights...
gawd hates the gays!! they can't abide it!!
but they can cherry pick from various other bible lessons that apply to them- like...do they want to use birth control? that's ok, but supporting gay rights would be TERRIBLE!
(this would be my inlaws...)
For serious. Speak up already!
And word to Joe.
But these are the same people that freaked out over the book Princess Boy and are teaching their kids that different is wrong.
while I am SURE this is true of many people (eclaires is one.) I have not yet encountered a NON religious argument against gay rights...it is almost always rooted in that homosexuality goes against god's plan.
am I wrong?
it doesn't make all religious people anti gay, but I DO believe most anti gay people are religious.
ETA, you know the catholics don't even give WOMEN equal rights...not the most openminded of the major religions...their track record...not good.
I believe in God, am Baptist even, and fully, whole-heartedly, support gay marriage.
I wasn't referencing what I did as a knee-jerk reaction. I said that because it is what is almost ALWAYS the defense. If you are anti-gay, fine, whatever.....but don't say use the Bible as your reason when talking about a government issue.
Respectfully those may be your beliefs as a Catholic (and good on you for that) but that is not the oficially stated position of the Catholic church. The institution of the Catholic church is opposed to gay marriage and they spend a considerable amount of time and money opposing gay marriage.
I am horrified that 11% of the responders here are against same sex marriage.
And ditto JOE; it made me sick to even have to vote against Prop 8 two years ago--the fact that I actually had to go to a polling place and ask my government NOT to legislate against human rights was pretty sickening. And even more sickening when the majority of the state voted to deny their fellow humans basic rights.
Doctrine and policy are two different things. Like any large governing body, policy within the Church is controlled by many different people, cultures, and mindsets, not to mention 2000 years of tradition. But the core doctrine of the church is love, kindness and acceptance of all, and that we are all fallen, homosexuals no more so than the rest of us.
I'm curious about how doctrine and practice can be so separate when as early as 2 years ago, the Pope was saying that humanity had to be "saved from homosexuality." I imagine a LOT of people put a lot of stock into what the Pope has to say about Church dogma, and put it into practice, in terms of how they vote, how they treat other people, how they raise their children to think/feel about others, etc.
I think it's wonderful when people are willing to think outside what their chosen religion preaches if they disagree w/ it at their core. But that doesn't mean that their religion supports what they support personally, in dogma or practice.
I bet if I had posted this during the day, the 'no' vote would have been higher.
and eclaires is against gay marriage? Is that true BOF? That surprises me.
No, I'm so pro-gay marriage I wish I could have one. I'd have a big fat gay civil union if this country went that route (which I'm against - I actually think that people should get the license like we have now and that's what marries you and then if you choose to have a religious ceremony (or whatever else) you can but I think the priest/minister/etc role should be taken out of it - all you need to do to be married in the eyes of the state would be the license at city hall).
Anyhoo - I think she meant that I'm a religious person (practicing Catholic) who is pro-gay marriage.
I could be wrong though and maybe BOF thinks I am a gay hater and have a non-religious reason.
No, eclaires is a big supporter of gay marriage and gay rights in general. I think that is what BoF said and you misread it.
ETA: Nevermind. My slowass typing was beat by eclaires speaking for herself.
Wow, you said this perfectly! Especially the bolded.
Sure the Catholic church may "accept" homosexuals as people and maybe even as homosexuals (in the sense that they believe they may be inherently gay) but the church is not ambigous about this: sex is for marriage between a man and a woman. Outside of marriage there is no sex. There is no marriage between men and men, or women and women. Therefore gay people are not permitted to maintain intimate relationships with people of the same sex and there is no gay marriage.
The Catholic church, along with the Mormon church and a variety of other Christian denomonations have spent LOTS of time and money trying to deny gay people a right to marry their partners. Please don't mistake that.
and ok, you're right...religious institutions do have a previous "partner" in their discrimination against gay people. The Nazis! What illustrious company to keep.
I think this is a good point. As a Catholic, I also think it is my role to stay a practicing Catholic and work to change it however I can, both in my country and in my Church. The thing is, you can't always leave everything if you disagree. You have to fight for what you believe in and while I haven't yet discovered a path for this within the Catholic church for me, I hope to some day. Just like I donate money to organizations to change things here in the US - it's not like I'm going to leave the US over it - I'm working to change it. Plus, I feel like if every Catholic who disagrees with the Church's teachings on these things left, then there's no one there to fight for the real beliefs, the beliefs that matter, of the Church (which despite what the Pope or anyone else might say has zero to do with gay marriage).
oh ok! I was thinking wtf?! lol.
oh ok! I was thinking wtf?! lol.
LOL, Praline. I thought the same thing. Given that religions base their views on what they think is "moral" as well, I agree that this is not really an argument I'd like to scratch the surface of if I was part of a religion that discriminated against homosexuals.
I thoroughly enjoy my little piece of paper that says I'm married...I mean...why take that away from anyone???
The fact that this "debate" is still a "debate" astounds and disgusts me. I just hate that everyone is all about equality...unless it's equality for gay couples. Ridiculous, IMO.
It's amazing to me that 35+ responses in, and almost 15% of the people who responded do not support same sex marriage and yet not ONE of those almost 15% has enough courage in their convictions to actually admit to them.
I was arguing against the claim that all homophobia arises from religious reasons; what a silly way to twist my words. My point is that religion is not the basis of homophobia, but rather a tool and sometimes (like this post clearly shows) the victim. I personally think homophobia rises in any male-dominated society, where propagation of the bloodlines is considered a sign of manliness. It's alive and well in many Asian cultures, where religion is not even a factor.
People will use any method to promote their personal agenda, including religion. Christians who use Christianity as a reason for discrimination go against everything Christ teaches, and only discredits themselves and Christianity.
Definitely!
Ok Aggie, you are right. Religion is not always the basis for homophobia. But often, in the US anyway, people cite their religious beliefs as an explanation for why they disagree with gay marriage. Maybe you are on to something though, maybe the basis for it is always homophobia, driven by a fear of the feminine, an emphasis on hypermasculinity etc, etc....
So then, there are a lot of homophobic people, many of them are religious, and they use their religious beliefs to justify their homophobia. Religion isn't the "victim" here because religion isn't a person and doesn't have emotions. GAY PEOPLE are the victims. And lots of homophobes running organized religions (like the Catholic church) are on a mission to keep gay people (who have no affilition with their church) from being able to marry. They may make arguments about marriage and how the bible defines marriage defend their beliefs, but like you said above, that is just a TOOL for their homophobia.
Richard Rodriguez says it better than I can (and he's a practicing Catholic, btw). It is not out of nowhere that people point the finger at religious institutions in this isssue.
Then there is the Roman Catholic Church, my own church, which has just come off this extraordinary season of sexual scandal and misbehavior in the rectory against children. The church is barely out of the court and it's trying to assume the role of governor of sexual behavior, having just proved to America its inability to govern its own sexual behavior.
Look at the evangelicals. In their insistence that people be born again, they know Americans are broken. In their circus-tent suburban churches, you find 10,000 people on a Sunday morning. You find people who have been divorced, people who have had drug experiences, people who have been in jail. These churches touch upon a dream that people can put our lives back together again.
Now these churches are going after homosexuals as a way of insisting on their own propriety. They are insisting that they have a role to play in the general society as moral guardians, when what we have seen in the recent past is just the opposite. I mean, it's one thing for the churches to insist on their right to define the sacrament of marriage for their own members. But it's quite another for them to insist that they have a right to define the relationships of people outside their communities. That's really what's most troubling about Proposition 8. It was a deliberate civic intrusion by the churches.