should we even talk about the C-word?

nkintzel · August 2009

bbowie:
nkintzel:
bbowie:

I just read an article yesterday that the AAP may start encouraging circumcisions once again and the current rate is 65% of newborns are circumcised...down from 80%.

Mothering did an article on this study awhile back. They essentially poked holes all through the methods.

My thoughts are that why in heaven's name would we ever use a surgical procedure to replace good sexual protection? The whole concept is scary.

What study? The article just refers to studies in general.

All of this talk was based on a study done in Africa. Here's a link to that paper:

https://www.circumstitions.com/Docs/garenne-2.pdf

lanie26 · August 2009

The "he was humiliated" his whole life because he wasn't circ'd argument is hilarious to me. He probably blames his mom for his poor social relationships too.

It's a personal decision. I don't care what others do with their children's genitals. I don't think I could do it but am not against it. We have a girl so it has not been an issue.

7river7wed7 · August 2009

bbowie:
7river7wed7:
bbowie:
7river7wed7:
bbowie:

I just read an article yesterday that the AAP may start encouraging circumcisions once again and the current rate is 65% of newborns are circumcised...down from 80%.

Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it. TIA!

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24circumcision.html?_r=3&ref=health

I am really confused b/c I thought all this was proven to not be true??

Are you being sarcastic? Because I was interested to know what kind of evidence they had and from what I'm reading, it's not a whole lot. Here are a couple quotes for others who are curious...

"There is little to no evidence that circumcision protects men who have sex with men from infection."

?What we?ve heard from our consultants is that there would be a benefit for infants from infant circumcision, and that the benefits outweigh the risks.?

Also, for clarification, it is the CDC that is considering recommending it. AAP may just remove their neutral remarks - they will not be recommending it. To me, its a developing story not hard evidence. Not saying it couldn't become something noteworthy in the future, but right now the statistics aren't really staggaring. Could be lack of a control group that makes the results appear the way they do.

I'm not against it by any means - what I am against is uninformed people who do it because it's the norm. Not saying anyone here is uninformed, just sayin. In fact, if DD was a boy she would have been circed because I, too, told DH is was ultimately his decision and he was strongly for it.

No I'm not being sarcastic. I NEVER said it was hard evidence. And yes, the AAP may start ENCOURAGING it...I NEVER said RECOMMEND!

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like I was attacking you. I just meant to state that the articles I've read tend to try to make it look like breaking news, hard evidence, when that isn't usually the case -- just a different interpretation. I also didn't mean it to sound like you were implying it was hard evidence, just stating my opinion. Sorry it came off that way.

I like you - please don't be mad at me Sad

847Christine · August 2009

I wanted to throw my 2 cents in here too... I have been w/men who were circ'd & those who were intact. None of the ones who were intact were embarrassed by their status & none had cleanliness issues.

DH is still not sure what we would ever do if we have a son someday. (He is circ'd.) I am, however, pretty against it. DH's arguments are similar to some of the ones posted in this thread: social/cosmetic reasons, cleaner, healthier, etc. He is also worried that if we had a son, we'd eventually have to have the procedure done b/c of something that caused DH's brother to need a circ. Ultimately though, I feel more strongly than he does so it's more likely that if we have a son, he will remain intact.

It's such a double standard... female circumcision is very controversial, though still performed in some parts of the world. I would never imagine subjecting DD to that kind of treatment, so why would I do that to a son?

EandT · August 2009

The "he was humiliated" his whole life because he wasn't circ'd argument is hilarious to me. He probably blames his mom for his poor social relationships too.

Nope, he's a very well adjusted guy. He made sure to always shower after everyone else left though. It made me sad for him. Luckily we're a close bunch and we all still rip him about it.

847Christine · August 2009

JCM083009:
7river7wed7:

I can't imagine doing a painful procedure that has been proven to have no medical, health or heigenic benefits.

This. And we do have a son. And I am Jewish. I couldn't do it.

Also, having attended my nephew's bris (sp?) I was even more turned off by the whole idea. It breaks my heart when I hear my baby scream. NO WAY I could do something intentional that would cause that kind of pain.

bbowie · August 2009

7river7wed7:
bbowie:
7river7wed7:
bbowie:
7river7wed7:
bbowie:

I just read an article yesterday that the AAP may start encouraging circumcisions once again and the current rate is 65% of newborns are circumcised...down from 80%.

Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it. TIA!

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24circumcision.html?_r=3&ref=health

I am really confused b/c I thought all this was proven to not be true??

Are you being sarcastic? Because I was interested to know what kind of evidence they had and from what I'm reading, it's not a whole lot. Here are a couple quotes for others who are curious...

"There is little to no evidence that circumcision protects men who have sex with men from infection."

?What we?ve heard from our consultants is that there would be a benefit for infants from infant circumcision, and that the benefits outweigh the risks.?

Also, for clarification, it is the CDC that is considering recommending it. AAP may just remove their neutral remarks - they will not be recommending it. To me, its a developing story not hard evidence. Not saying it couldn't become something noteworthy in the future, but right now the statistics aren't really staggaring. Could be lack of a control group that makes the results appear the way they do.

I'm not against it by any means - what I am against is uninformed people who do it because it's the norm. Not saying anyone here is uninformed, just sayin. In fact, if DD was a boy she would have been circed because I, too, told DH is was ultimately his decision and he was strongly for it.

No I'm not being sarcastic. I NEVER said it was hard evidence. And yes, the AAP may start ENCOURAGING it...I NEVER said RECOMMEND!

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like I was attacking you. I just meant to state that the articles I've read tend to try to make it look like breaking news, hard evidence, when that isn't usually the case -- just a different interpretation. I also didn't mean it to sound like you were implying it was hard evidence, just stating my opinion. Sorry it came off that way.

I like you - please don't be mad at me

Ohhhhh...I was like WTH?! Darn internet. My bad interpretation too. I do get a little sensitive over this issue b/c I take it personally even though I shouldn't.

andrea922 · August 2009

EandT:
The "he was humiliated" his whole life because he wasn't circ'd argument is hilarious to me. He probably blames his mom for his poor social relationships too.

Nope, he's a very well adjusted guy. He made sure to always shower after everyone else left though. It made me sad for him. Luckily we're a close bunch and we all still rip him about it.

So you, as an adult, make fun of your friend for being uncirc'ed? Nice.

My husband, along with most other men from pretty much every other Western country in the world, is not. The US has one of, if not the highest, circ rate of all Western countries for non religious reasons. I think this says a lot. We didn't circ our son and I wouldn't circ another boy either.

As for the study, I think they need to do the same study in Europe and the US and then come out with the results.

bbowie · August 2009

847Christine:
I wanted to throw my 2 cents in here too... I have been w/men who were circ'd & those who were intact. None of the ones who were intact were embarrassed by their status & none had cleanliness issues.

DH is still not sure what we would ever do if we have a son someday. (He is circ'd.) I am, however, pretty against it. DH's arguments are similar to some of the ones posted in this thread: social/cosmetic reasons, cleaner, healthier, etc. He is also worried that if we had a son, we'd eventually have to have the procedure done b/c of something that caused DH's brother to need a circ. Ultimately though, I feel more strongly than he does so it's more likely that if we have a son, he will remain intact.

It's such a double standard... female circumcision is very controversial, though still performed in some parts of the world. I would never imagine subjecting DD to that kind of treatment, so why would I do that to a son?

Are the two comparable? I thought female circumcision was the removal of the clitoris and performed for the purpose to removing pleasure from sex?

Judah'sMommy · August 2009

fredalina:
Anyone can discuss anything they want anywhere they want. The problem is that this board is fast becoming a crunch contest and an "extreme parenting" contest and not as much about AP and AP principles IMO. That perception, which others have expressed as well, is alienating to some people and is causing a negative perception of the board in general (and thus attracts trolls and trouble-makers).

Agreed.

bbowie · August 2009

847Christine:
JCM083009:
7river7wed7:

I can't imagine doing a painful procedure that has been proven to have no medical, health or heigenic benefits.

This. And we do have a son. And I am Jewish. I couldn't do it.

Also, having attended my nephew's bris (sp?) I was even more turned off by the whole idea. It breaks my heart when I hear my baby scream. NO WAY I could do something intentional that would cause that kind of pain.

They don't use an anesthesia at a bris do they?

Bonzer · August 2009

I mutilated Phoenix' genitals, and I will mutilate my son due in November's genitals also.

I often ask Phoenix at 18 months old, " Do you remember the day we had your genitals mutilated for our own selfish reasons?"

He looks at me and smiles, because he doesn't remember and I'm relatively confident he couldn't care less. I'm sure he actually prefers that we took care of it now rather than having to scrape schmegma off of of his foreskin and try to prevent UTI's when the schmegma gets thick, builds up and clogs his ureter. But what do I know. I'm just a barbaric mom.

EandT · August 2009

Andrea - you don't make fun of your friends? One of the great pleasures in our lives is to sit around busting on each other. The touchier the subject the better. Wink

FutureGosnell · August 2009

I would argue they are not 100% the same, but are comparable. Removing the foreskin removes the most sensitive part of the penis and turns an internal organ, the glands, into an external organ making it less sensitive. Is sex still pleasurable? - Yes Could it be more pleasurable? - Possible and possible for both partners

Circumcision was started to reduce masturbation by making it less pleasurable.

lanie26 · August 2009

bbowie:
847Christine:

I wanted to throw my 2 cents in here too... I have been w/men who were circ'd & those who were intact. None of the ones who were intact were embarrassed by their status & none had cleanliness issues.

DH is still not sure what we would ever do if we have a son someday. (He is circ'd.) I am, however, pretty against it. DH's arguments are similar to some of the ones posted in this thread: social/cosmetic reasons, cleaner, healthier, etc. He is also worried that if we had a son, we'd eventually have to have the procedure done b/c of something that caused DH's brother to need a circ. Ultimately though, I feel more strongly than he does so it's more likely that if we have a son, he will remain intact.

It's such a double standard... female circumcision is very controversial, though still performed in some parts of the world. I would never imagine subjecting DD to that kind of treatment, so why would I do that to a son?

Are the two comparable? I thought female circumcision was the removal of the clitoris and performed for the purpose to removing pleasure from sex?

Not at all. In fact, comparing the two is ignorant.

eacabraham@gmail.com · August 2009

Bonzer:
I'm sure he actually prefers that we took care of it now rather than having to scrape schmegma off of of his foreskin and try to prevent UTI's when the schmegma gets thick, builds up and clogs his ureter. But what do I know. I'm just a barbaric mom.

Okay, so full disclosure: my son is circumcised. I deferred to my husband on this decision, not because he has a penis, but because he's Jewish and I respect his religious obligations.

BUT - my son has a persistent case of buried penis. Smegma? Oh yeah, we got it. We have never had to scrape it off, and the foreskin and glans should *never* be scraped. You wash an uncircumcised penis exactly the way you'd wash a finger, you do not retract the foreskin to do it. Rough treatment of foreskin can *cause* infections, not prevent them. Smegma isn't harmful. It can be a little stinky and look a little gross, but the same can be said of a whole bunch of things about bodies.

MegGary · August 2009

FutureGosnell:

?We have a significant H.I.V. epidemic in this country, and we really need to look carefully at any potential intervention that could be another tool in the toolbox we use to address the epidemic,? Dr. Kilmarx said.

This is from the artical posted above, we also have the highest circ rate of an industrial country, yet it hasn't seemed to help.

I rather my son depend on a condom to prevent HIV then his circ status.

I hate the HIV STD argument for circumsision. I imagine we as women should have our labia & vagina altered as well since we are at higher risk for HIV & STD's? Would that be a good solution for people? Condoms, and more importantly, abstinence are what prevent HIV & STDs.

Sally J · August 2009

mominatrix:

Also, the sense I'm seeing online is that circ is anti-AP, because it runs counter to AP's sense of 'gentle' parenting.

I just wanted to make it known that I somehow got misquoted several times. Mominatrix said the above quote not me.

happilyhis · August 2009

FutureGosnell:

I would argue they are not 100% the same, but are comparable. Removing the foreskin removes the most sensitive part of the penis and turns an internal organ, the glands, into an external organ making it less sensitive. Is sex still pleasurable? - Yes Could it be more pleasurable? - Possible and possible for both partners

Circumcision was started to reduce masturbation by making it less pleasurable.

Umm...never mind. I'm just going to pretend you didn't put that out there like it was true.

MegGary · August 2009

EandT:

The "he was humiliated" his whole life because he wasn't circ'd argument is hilarious to me. He probably blames his mom for his poor social relationships too.

Nope, he's a very well adjusted guy. He made sure to always shower after everyone else left though. It made me sad for him. Luckily we're a close bunch and we all still rip him about it.

WHAAAAAAT?! You make fun of him? Even though you feel bad for him. Even though you use his humilation as an argument to circ? Thats nice. Real nice.

MrsJuneHawk · August 2009

EandT:
Here's a vote for circs! We have a family friend (adult) who is not circ'ed and he has been humiliated about it for much of his life. Being involved in sports, etc and showering with other males was a painful source of embarassment for him. He most def. had his son circ'ed.

That is the second lamest excuse to circumcise a child. The first one is "because we want him to look like his daddy".

Hygiene I get, STDs I get but those two reasons REALLY grind my gears.

kirbabe · August 2009

Ummmm, I just want to add that men DO have breasts! They have actual breast tissue, they are just less developed and don't have the extra fat that we do.

MrsJuneHawk · August 2009

847Christine:
I wanted to throw my 2 cents in here too... I have been w/men who were circ'd & those who were intact. None of the ones who were intact were embarrassed by their status & none had cleanliness issues.

DH is still not sure what we would ever do if we have a son someday. (He is circ'd.) I am, however, pretty against it. DH's arguments are similar to some of the ones posted in this thread: social/cosmetic reasons, cleaner, healthier, etc. He is also worried that if we had a son, we'd eventually have to have the procedure done b/c of something that caused DH's brother to need a circ. Ultimately though, I feel more strongly than he does so it's more likely that if we have a son, he will remain intact.

It's such a double standard... female circumcision is very controversial, though still performed in some parts of the world. I would never imagine subjecting DD to that kind of treatment, so why would I do that to a son?

That is a moronic comparison! There IS no comparison! Female circumcisions are done for entirely different reasons and are barbaric. They also CREATE health problems instaed of eliminating them. Do yourself a favor and dont' repeat that IRL because it makes you sound like an ignorant fool.

That said, my son is not circumcised....but I still think there is absolutely no comparison.

EandT · August 2009

WHAAAAAAT?! You make fun of him? Even though you feel bad for him. Even though you use his humilation as an argument to circ? Thats nice. Real nice.

Yeah. And he's bald too. We also make fun of him for that.

nkintzel · August 2009

kirbabe:
Ummmm, I just want to add that men DO have breasts! They have actual breast tissue, they are just less developed and don't have the extra fat that we do.

Oh, seriously? Come on.

Ok, fine. And we have erectile tissue on our clitoris. Are we talking the same thing? No.

foundmylazybum · August 2009

I have seen some dumb posts before but some of the comments in this trainwreck really take the cake.

angie16 · August 2009

I think an AP parent would be more likely to weigh their child's pain as part of thir decision to circ. or not. When weighing the pros/cons I really saw that the medical pros/cons seemed to balance out, so when taking ds's pain into account we decided not to circ.

Manderlin923 · August 2009

This post got a little heated huh?

I don't know if anyone will read to the end but I wanted to put this link in. It's a great counterbalance to the one from msnbc about the hiv in africa thing.... this has a ton of good points.

https://www.circumcision.org/hiv.htm

Heidi Lanigan-Potter · August 2009

EandT:
Here's a vote for circs! We have a family friend (adult) who is not circ'ed and he has been humiliated about it for much of his life. Being involved in sports, etc and showering with other males was a painful source of embarassment for him. He most def. had his son circ'ed.

Sounds like more of a self-esteem issue to me.

Heidi Lanigan-Potter · August 2009

Bonzer:
I mutilated Phoenix' genitals, and I will mutilate my son due in November's genitals also.
I often ask Phoenix at 18 months old, " Do you remember the day we had your genitals mutilated for our own selfish reasons?"
He looks at me and smiles, because he doesn't remember and I'm relatively confident he couldn't care less. I'm sure he actually prefers that we took care of it now rather than having to scrape schmegma off of of his foreskin and try to prevent UTI's when the schmegma gets thick, builds up and clogs his ureter. But what do I know. I'm just a barbaric mom.

Sleep Get over yourself and your defensiveness. You made your choice, we made ours. Don't make it sound like those of us who choose NOT to circ are putting our children at any more risk than yours. Just the fact that you ask your son this question half-jokingly makes me wonder if you are actually comfortable with your choice. But I really don't care.

DAuger · August 2009

FutureGosnell:
EandT:

Here's a vote for circs! We have a family friend (adult) who is not circ'ed and he has been humiliated about it for much of his life. Being involved in sports, etc and showering with other males was a painful source of embarassment for him. He most def. had his son circ'ed.

My dad isn't and he hasn't had any issues.

My dad wasn't either and he said he's NEVER had ANYONE say anything to him. He says he is so thankful that he wasn't circ. DH has always said he wished he wasn't. DS isn't circ and I'm so glad and proud that he isn't.

DAuger · August 2009

angie16:

I think an AP parent would be more likely to weigh their child's pain as part of thir decision to circ. or not.

This is my thought as well.

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