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Attachment Parenting
mominatrix
member
should we even talk about the C-word?
mominatrix
member
circumcision?
With all the new stuff going on in the 'circumcision debate', it seems like more and more 'mainstream' people are going with the procedure...
I still am very against... will not circumcise my son.
IME, there's great overlap between the AP community and the anti-circ community...
is that your experience?
why do you think that is?
will circ refusals make us seem even less mainstream?
The Girl is 5. The Boy is 2. The Dog is 1.
I am the 99%.
I am the 99%.
This discussion has been closed.
Re: should we even talk about the C-word?
Don't have a boy, but if I did I wouldn't circ. I think you're right that there is probably a big overlap.
I can't imagine doing a painful procedure that has been proven to have no medical, health or heigenic benefits.
what does circumcision have to do with AP?
There are several studies that show the health benefits to circ (lower contraction of STDs). People might not do it for the "cleanliness" factor anymore, but there are still reasons to do it.
Anyway, we circ DS and I don't regret it one bit.
I thought the two might be related since in my own circle those who are more AP'ing tended to have boys left in tact while those who were more mainstream tended to circumcise. I posted a poll on the board to see and it was about a 50/50 split, with slightly more people circumcising than not. There didn't appear to be a correlation despite my own view, which I think points to the fact that AP'ing and circumcision are not related.
Does anyone know of any articles that discuss this topic further? I just wonder if there has been anything written about AP and circumcision.
We didn't circ our son, and I really can't see why it is done anymore, aside from religious reasons. All the "pros" to circumcision can be accomplished by other, much less painful means. Like, hey, if you're concerned about the cleanliness factor, teach your child to maintain good hygiene, or, hey, if you are worried about STDs, teach your child to use protection. I just don't get it.
Of course, that's just my opinion...
I do see the overlap between AP and noncirc. It's about seeing things through your baby's eyes. Would I want the skin around my most sensitive parts cut off? Hell no.
That being said...
1. I don't have a boy. So take my opinion only for what it is - my opinion.
2. We didn't find out that DD was a girl until she was born. DH and I talked a lot about circ and my official position (after a lot of thought and although I was still conflicted about it) was that it was DH's decision. He does have a penis so it seems reasonable that he could make a more informed decision than I could. DH wanted to circ.
3. We looked into the different ways baby boys are circed. (When I was in college, I volunteered in the mother-baby center of a hospital and assisted with a few circs. There are different ways drs can do it, different "tools" they can use, and different anticeptics they can use.) We asked our MW for recs and she suggested we contact a local mohel (a Jewish person who performs circs for baby boys during the bris), who we ultimately decided to use if we had a boy. But instead we got DD.
Here's the Dr. Sears page on deciding whether or not to circ:
https://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp
Also, the sense I'm seeing online is that circ is anti-AP, because it runs counter to AP's sense of 'gentle' parenting.
I am the 99%.
I think that's a better way of saying it than what I said above.
But if we have a son in the future, we'll still probably circumcise him. Like I said, I think it's mostly DH's decision. But I don't feel warm and fuzzy and all AP about it.
Ditto.
Yea I'm confused on why some people are getting so defensive about whether there is a correlation between the two. If it isn't about the label and following it to a T, why does it matter if someone else thinks they are related?
Maybe the "principles" don't state APers don't circ, but they are open to interpretation and everyone interprets them differently - just because lanie (and the others that I can't remember their sns) say their not related doesn't mean that to someone they aren't.
hug it out
I don't really post here, but I do lurk. I thought I'd weigh in on the subject. I totally see the relationship between AP and circ. A pp put it pretty well. I consider APing to be mostly about a gentle, intuitive approach to parenting.
For me, it would be the opposite of gentle or intuitive if I were to cut the most sensitive parts of my boy's body off. Though we had multiple, lengthy, informed discussions on the issue, ultimately, I told my husband that it would be done over my dead body.l worked really hard to have the gentle homebirth that I felt was a respectful entrance for my son, and I couldn't imagine then taking him somewhere to get circ'd. Though my husband really wanted to do it,he didn't really want it bad enough to take him somewhere and have it done. So, he's not circ'd.
Anyway, for me, its totally an AP related thing. I mean, I know that lots of people say that they forget the pain or whatever, but I don't really buy that it doesn't have an impact on some level. Just my opinion.
And as an example of why I think the "I don't have an penis so I'm not qualified..." argument is BS. I have a teenage daughter. I would sincerely hope that if I decided that she should have breast implants, my husband would feel compelled or authorized or allowed to have equal say in that decision. Even though he is breastless.
DS is circ'd. It was not my preference. However, my husband felt very strongly that DS needed to be circ'd. Since I didn't feel it was a life or death issue, I didn't fight strongly on it - I showed DH the research, and he still decided to go through with it and felt strongly about it. The pedi at the hospital came in before the procedure, told us how unnecessary it was, how its not as common today as it used to be, etc. and DH STILL wanted to go through with it. For me, it was a choose your battles kind of issue. I chose not to battle. However, DH really respected the doctor for trying to talk us out of it, and then trusted the doctor more because of it (I guess DH knew the doctor was informed, so felt more comfortable after that). So, it is what it is. They did kind of botch the procedure though, and DS has a skin tag because of it, which totally pisses me off, and later, DH was like, "Maybe we shouldn't have done it." But, you can only do so much when 2 parents have to agree on something. It wasn't worth causing a rift in my marriage over.
Anyways - I do think AP'ers probably tend to lean towards not circumsizing, as others said - gentle parenting, not doing procedures and other traditional things just because that's what you are "supposed" to do, etc.
I'm not anti-circ., but I do think its a painful, unnecessary procedure, and in my son's case - more painful than necessary since they trapped some of his skin in there. However, that will go away, and I do not think he is emotionally scarred for life because of it.
Once again Fredalina has run off with my words.
So true. I think the thing is that there are still many whose culture and upbringing dictate certain behaviours and norms especially around circumcision. To imply, however subtley that this may result in an a "non gentle" parenting method is silly.
I have no idea what I'll do if I have a boy. But I like to think that regardless of my decision, it will have no bearing on how I connect with or parent my child. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that our child's penis and its foreskin or lack thereof will not dictate what parenting methods I employ.
The trend of not circumcising runs across all parenting philosophies...not just AP. So I don't think anyone is standing out among mainstream parents but if you feel it's AP then certainly roll with it. I don't.
I just read an article yesterday that the AAP may start encouraging circumcisions once again and the current rate is 65% of newborns are circumcised...down from 80%.
Hmm. Interesting point.
Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it. TIA!
I don't think it's just an anti-circ thing. I think it's more than AP tends to overlap with NFL in general. I mean, that's why they publish Mothering, right?
No lanie, your decision to circ will not ultimately dictate your ability to connect with your child and does not ban you from the AP club...but neither will choosing to FF, putting your child in a stroller, or having an elective c-section. It is about how you feel as a parent and what ideals you most closely relate to. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? You, among others, are the ones that keep attacking posters who ask what the 'AP' standpoint is on certain topics - they are not singling you out or criticizing those who don't follow it, so why does it always have to be a defense rather than "I do this and this is why". YOU are the one that is pushing the label you are supposedly are fighting so hard to prevent - it is OK for somethign to be AP even if Lanie doesn't do it and still wants to be called AP.
ETA: To you and fred, I think it is those who claim to resent the label who make it an issue. Why can't there be a discussion on this board without someone jumping in and throwing the "its not AP" bomb. WTF cares? That doesn't mean that like-minded mamas can't come here to discuss it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24circumcision.html?_r=3&ref=health
I am really confused b/c I thought all this was proven to not be true??
Here's a vote for circs! We have a family friend (adult) who is not circ'ed and he has been humiliated about it for much of his life. Being involved in sports, etc and showering with other males was a painful source of embarassment for him. He most def. had his son circ'ed.
::shrugs:: If you don't want to, don't. If you want to, do. I guess I just don't see how a discussion on what is and is not "AP" is bad on an AP board.
so, this is the 'cosmetic' argument... the 'my son will be humiliated in the gym showers if he's not circumcised'
...but the % of boys being circumcised is way, way lower than it has been historically - - even below 50% in some places / populations.
So an uncircumcised penis on our sons just isn't the oddity it was for our fathers or our husbands / brothers.
I am the 99%.
Pretty much this. The only person who should decide on circ is the owner of the penis.
Mothering did an article on this study awhile back. They essentially poked holes all through the methods.
My thoughts are that why in heaven's name would we ever use a surgical procedure to replace good sexual protection? The whole concept is scary.
?We have a significant H.I.V. epidemic in this country, and we really need to look carefully at any potential intervention that could be another tool in the toolbox we use to address the epidemic,? Dr. Kilmarx said.
This is from the artical posted above, we also have the highest circ rate of an industrial country, yet it hasn't seemed to help.
I rather my son depend on a condom to prevent HIV then his circ status.
Are you being sarcastic? Because I was interested to know what kind of evidence they had and from what I'm reading, it's not a whole lot. Here are a couple quotes for others who are curious...
"There is little to no evidence that circumcision protects men who have sex with men from infection."
?What we?ve heard from our consultants is that there would be a benefit for infants from infant circumcision, and that the benefits outweigh the risks.?
Also, for clarification, it is the CDC that is considering recommending it. AAP may just remove their neutral remarks - they will not be recommending it. To me, its a developing story not hard evidence. Not saying it couldn't become something noteworthy in the future, but right now the statistics aren't really staggaring. Could be lack of a control group that makes the results appear the way they do.
I'm not against it by any means - what I am against is uninformed people who do it because it's the norm. Not saying anyone here is uninformed, just sayin. In fact, if DD was a boy she would have been circed because I, too, told DH is was ultimately his decision and he was strongly for it.
My dad isn't and he hasn't had any issues.
What study? The article just refers to studies in general.
This is it.
No I'm not being sarcastic. I NEVER said it was hard evidence. And yes, the AAP may start ENCOURAGING it...I NEVER said RECOMMEND!
"The academy is revising its guidelines, however, and is likely to do away with the neutral tone in favor of a more encouraging policy stating that circumcision has health benefits even beyond H.I.V. prevention, like reducing urinary tract infections for baby boys, said Dr. Michael Brady, a consultant to the American Academy of Pediatrics."
This. And we do have a son. And I am Jewish. I couldn't do it.
Its kinda old news, actually. The study was done awhile back. I wish I could find an on-line version of the Mothering article. Its not a very strong case.
Thanks, Dobie.
Here's the most recent article.
https://www.nocirc.org/2008-07_Mothering-Fauntleroy.pdf
Thanks, Dobie.
Here's the most recent article.
https://www.nocirc.org/2008-07_Mothering-Fauntleroy.pdf