Our country is supposed to be "Godless?"

J&A2008

Um, go back and read your Declaration of Independence, ladies.

Our country was founded on the principle that God has endowed every one of us with the right to seek our own destiny and that we have the freedom to believe and worship as we will.  Certainly our country was founded on the belief that people had the right to choose their faith or none at all, but to say our country was founded as a godless society is completely, unquestionably wrong.

J&A2008

car seat:

Which god?

You need to calm down.  You're still allowed to be religious if the government isn't. 

Hey, I'm not a big fan of religion.  I don't want someone else telling me how to practice my faith.

But to say the government is godless, when the founding documents so clearly spell out that the idea behind our government is to form a society to allow people to enjoy the freedoms given by our God/Creator is absurd.

CoffeeBeen

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

Someone should tell Tomas Jefferson the US isn't supposed to be Godless, he sounds like a huge jackass.  

J&A2008

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

pookie2005

Unquestionably? I don't think so. There are many "gods". Some people don't believe any of them are real. To some, god is as real as a mermaid or a dragon and I don't want them in my declaration of independence either.

morayme1

God shouldn't be mentioned when it comes to "country" because gods and religions differ so greatly. I worship Thor and I don't feel my rights are accurately represented these days.

Venus04d

Oh, you mad?

J&A2008

car seat:

Do you feel that any party right now is trying to strip religious rights?  I don't understand what the problem is.  The United States was built on the idea of escaping persecution - including religious persecution.  The Christians, deists and atheists who founded the country included the word God, but there's no instruction to make God part of every thing politicians do.

I don't understand why you're upset.  I really don't.

I'm not upset.  I just think there's a lot of wrong in the DNC thread below, from every angle, but that one I think needs to be set right.  It's a misconception that the separation of church and state means faithless.  Clearly, the government does not ascribe to any particular church/religion/faith, but to say that our government was not founded on faith is wrong.

J&A2008

pookie2005:

Unquestionably? I don't think so. There are many "gods". Some people don't believe any of them are real. To some, god is as real as a mermaid or a dragon and I don't want them in my declaration of independence either.

Well, then you'll have to seek a different country or form your own. 

Has no one read it?

J&A2008

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

So we are splitting hairs on religion and God? 

Or separating continents.

 

J&A2008

justAphase:

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."                   . John Adams

Exactly.  I'm not going to tell you who/what God is, but He does exist.

CoffeeBeen

J&A2008:

justAphase:

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."                   . John Adams

Exactly.  I'm not going to tell you who/what God is, but He does exist.

Maybe, maybe not.  Either way He doesn't get a say in my government.

morayme1

J&A2008:

justAphase:

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."                   . John Adams

Exactly.  I'm not going to tell you who/what God is, but He does exist.

Neat, but you don't need to tell anyone that god exists. You just do your own thing when it comes to god. Since theres no proof and stuff.

morayme1

Pfft:

morayme1:

God shouldn't be mentioned when it comes to "country" because gods and religions differ so greatly. I worship Thor and I don't feel my rights are accurately represented these days.

::fights urge to say something mean::

Let it out, we're all friends here.

Kitiara5512

Constitution > Declaration

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The people writing, agreeing, and signing off on the Constitution deliberately kept God out of it. The Declaration was simply a declaration of why the people of the colonies did not consider themselves under the rule of King George anymore. It didn't have to do with how they formed the country afterwards except for trying to ensure that religion did not officially get involved in the politics process.

This is further supported by being officially made a part of the Constitution in the Bill of Rights.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

CoffeeBeen

Pfft:

morayme1:

God shouldn't be mentioned when it comes to "country" because gods and religions differ so greatly. I worship Thor and I don't feel my rights are accurately represented these days.

::fights urge to say something mean::

Me too, Pffft.  The first amendment is in overdrive with her.

J&A2008

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

So we are splitting hairs on religion and God? 

Or separating continents.

Sorry.  I am not following your vague responses. 

I think on some level we are saying the exact same thing, we just have different reasons for it.

The government does not dictate faith.  The government allows religious freedom.  I say the reason why our government is this way is in our founding documents that our founding fathers believed this was best because these are the freedoms God gave to mankind.  You say no, probably because you haven't read them.

Kitiara5512

pookie2005:

Unquestionably? I don't think so. There are many "gods". Some people don't believe any of them are real. To some, god is as real as a mermaid or a dragon and I don't want them in my declaration of independence either.

Nuh-uh. Takhisis is so totally real and you take that back or she will seduce you in your dreams and then suck out your soul.

 

CoffeeBeen

pookie2005:

Unquestionably? I don't think so. There are many "gods". Some people don't believe any of them are real. To some, god is as real as a mermaid or a dragon and I don't want them in my declaration of independence either.

What if the Declaration of Independence is referring to the Bump Gods? ::shudder::

RedWingsFan

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

So we are splitting hairs on religion and God? 

Or separating continents.

Sorry.  I am not following your vague responses. 

I think on some level we are saying the exact same thing, we just have different reasons for it.

The government does not dictate faith.  The government allows religious freedom.  I say the reason why our government is this way is in our founding documents that our founding fathers believed this was best because these are the freedoms God gave to mankind.  You say no, probably because you haven't read them.

Um, no.  Read Kit's response.  The Declaration of Independence was just that - a Declaration indicating that the newly founded US would not be subject to England's laws.  It does not dictate how the US would function as a matter of law.  That is the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the Land and does not mention God.  In fact, it explicitly mentions separation of church.  Our country's government/laws are based on the Constitution, not the Declaration of Independence. 

Kitiara5512

J&A2008:

justAphase:

"God is an essence that we know nothing of.  Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."                   . John Adams

Exactly.  I'm not going to tell you who/what God is, but He does exist.

No it doesn't. You will find many people who do not believe that any gods exist. Especially and including the one you want to capitalize the G in.

Kitiara5512

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

So we are splitting hairs on religion and God? 

Or separating continents.

Sorry.  I am not following your vague responses. 

I think on some level we are saying the exact same thing, we just have different reasons for it.

The government does not dictate faith.  The government allows religious freedom.  I say the reason why our government is this way is in our founding documents that our founding fathers believed this was best because these are the freedoms God gave to mankind.  You say no, probably because you haven't read them.

I am sitting here with a copy of the Constitution. Have you read it? I may not have, but then I look shiit up when I want to.

J&A2008

Scout2005:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

J&A2008:

EllaHella:

Thomas Jefferson: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

True.  Not religion. 

So we are splitting hairs on religion and God? 

Or separating continents.

Sorry.  I am not following your vague responses. 

I think on some level we are saying the exact same thing, we just have different reasons for it.

The government does not dictate faith.  The government allows religious freedom.  I say the reason why our government is this way is in our founding documents that our founding fathers believed this was best because these are the freedoms God gave to mankind.  You say no, probably because you haven't read them.

I love the "you disagree with me, therefore you haven't read X" argument. Because it couldn't just be that someone disagrees.

Again, the reality was that in 18th century America, chances were you were a de facto Christian. That language was included likely out of habit and tradition more than anything.

I don't choose to look at it as anything more serious of intent than that, frankly.

I'm not asking her to like it, but the language is clearly there.  Whether or not it says x,y, and z is not really a matter of opinion.

kcisthebombdotcom

KC wuz here.

Kitiara5512

J&A2008:

I'm not asking her to like it, but the language is clearly there.  Whether or not it says x,y, and z is not really a matter of opinion.

Are you just referring to the quote you already provided or do you have additional support?

Also, do you understand the difference between the Declaration and the Constitution?

Are you splitting hairs or nails?

Do you prefer chunky or creamy?

Fruit or chocolate?

Beaches or mountains?

Inquiring minds need to know!!!!

J&A2008

EllaHella:

RedWingsFan:

The Declaration of Independence was just that - a Declaration indicating that the newly founded US would not be subject to England's laws.  It does not dictate how the US would function as a matter of law.  That is the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the Land and does not mention God.  In fact, it explicitly mentions separation of church.  Our country's government/laws are based on the Constitution, not the Declaration of Independence. 

Or maybe she just hasn't read the Consitution. 

To  the OP- before you try to school us on the founding principles of our country, perhaps you should study a little more yourself.  The two documents, while both profound and valid, served two distinct purposes. 

Declaration of Independence is self explanatory.  It proclaimed "Eff Off, Brits.  We are going to draft our own law."

The Constitution provided the framework for such autonomy and law as a newly formed Nation. 

Again, saying the same things.  I don't disagree with you on the function of either document.

LuckyDad

Have you all been Touched by His Noodly Appendage?

J&A2008

Spooko:

Also...godless, to me, connotes rejecting God in some way. I see a distinction between separating God from politics and government and rejecting God altogether. IDK if this matters to anyone else or not.

Thank you!  Yes. 

Any other responses, please see this.  One simple sentence to sum up my point.

Spooko, will you be my speech writer for all future bump posts?

Kitiara5512

Spooko:

I'm pretty sure I remember learning at some point in HS or college that the founding fathers pretty much didn't actually believe in God. At least not in any sense that we would share now. If anything, their God was more of the "watchmaker", set it and forget it kind of God. A god like that wouldn't really have anything to do with guiding principles in a country anyways. 

Also...godless, to me, connotes rejecting God in some way. I see a distinction between separating God from politics and government and rejecting God altogether. IDK if this matters to anyone else or not.

I think Jefferson was an atheist and Franklin was agnostic. And they were not the only ones, just the most famous and therefore the only I remember.

J&A2008

CTGirl30:

J&A, I am having a hard time taking your stand seriously here - show us some actual evidence where either document states that God / religion is / are intended to be the underlying governing principles of our country.

They're not.  Our country came to be because people came here seeking a government that was free from religious oppression and wanted a land where they could practice the freedom God gave them to choose how to worship.

Kitiara5512

And the quote that started it all.

twatley:

Repeat after me:

THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIANITY.

OUR GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE GODLESS.

NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN YOUR RELIGION. 

Note that it says the government is supposed to be godless, not the citizens of this country.

Then go back and read the 1st amendment. Do you want me to quote it again for ya?

 

KJmashup

LuckyDad:

Have you all been Touched by His Noodly Appendage?

I'm a Pastafarian, indeed. 

Kitiara5512

Scout2005:

Kitiara5512:

And the quote that started it all.

twatley:

Repeat after me:

THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIANITY.

OUR GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSED TO BE GODLESS.

NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN YOUR RELIGION. 

Note that it says the government is supposed to be godless, not the citizens of this country.

Then go back and read the 1st amendment. Do you want me to quote it again for ya?

 

Yeah, I'm really lost as to the point of this thread. 

I think the point is for J&A to go "nana nana booboo, I am right about this one teeny tiny miniscule piece of information (the word God in the Declaration) so you will now all bow to my wisdom" or sumsuchshit.

[Deleted User]

KJmashup:

LuckyDad:

Have you all been Touched by His Noodly Appendage?

I'm a Pastafarian, indeed. 

Oooh, saucy!

RedWingsFan

J&A2008:

CTGirl30:

J&A, I am having a hard time taking your stand seriously here - show us some actual evidence where either document states that God / religion is / are intended to be the underlying governing principles of our country.

They're not.  Our country came to be because people came here seeking a government that was free from religious oppression and wanted a land where they could practice the freedom God gave them to choose how to worship.

You lose me at the last statement.   

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

J&A2008

Spooko:

JA, I'm glad you were able to express your idea with something I said. I'm not sure how it helps your position, though. Are you just arguing that godless is too strong of a word? It's been difficult to parse out exactly what your point and position is. 

Godless is a rejection of the idea of a higher power.  I think our leaders should be cognizant of a higher power than themselves in order to lead, and I think our country was founded so people could have freedoms from all sorts of tyranny, including religious oppression, from a government run by a man/men full of themselves and their own expression of power. 

Our Congress still opens with prayer, and I support this because I like the idea that people leading our country recognize that they are not the end-all be-all in the universe, but that there are more significant forces at work.  I don't really want someone in office who makes him/herself his/her own god.

robinsokj

J&A2008:

Spooko:

JA, I'm glad you were able to express your idea with something I said. I'm not sure how it helps your position, though. Are you just arguing that godless is too strong of a word? It's been difficult to parse out exactly what your point and position is. 

Godless is a rejection of the idea of a higher power.  I think our leaders should be cognizant of a higher power than themselves in order to lead, and I think our country was founded so people could have freedoms from all sorts of tyranny, including religious oppression, from a government run by a man/men full of themselves and their own expression of power. 

Our Congress still opens with prayer, and I support this because I like the idea that people leading our country recognize that they are not the end-all be-all in the universe, but that there are more significant forces at work.  I don't really want someone in office who makes him/herself his/her own god.

You really just gave my eyes the best workout theyve had this week.  

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kitiara5512

J&A2008:

Spooko:

JA, I'm glad you were able to express your idea with something I said. I'm not sure how it helps your position, though. Are you just arguing that godless is too strong of a word? It's been difficult to parse out exactly what your point and position is. 

Godless is a rejection of the idea of a higher power.  I think our leaders should be cognizant of a higher power than themselves in order to lead, and I think our country was founded so people could have freedoms from all sorts of tyranny, including religious oppression, from a government run by a man/men full of themselves and their own expression of power. 

Our Congress still opens with prayer, and I support this because I like the idea that people leading our country recognize that they are not the end-all be-all in the universe, but that there are more significant forces at work.  I don't really want someone in office who makes him/herself his/her own god.

Its possible to not believe in any gods without considering oneself to be a god. Its funny how that works. I do not believe in gods. I am not a god. There, see? Easy peasy.

RedWingsFan

J&A2008:

Spooko:

JA, I'm glad you were able to express your idea with something I said. I'm not sure how it helps your position, though. Are you just arguing that godless is too strong of a word? It's been difficult to parse out exactly what your point and position is. 

Godless is a rejection of the idea of a higher power.  I think our leaders should be cognizant of a higher power than themselves in order to lead, and I think our country was founded so people could have freedoms from all sorts of tyranny, including religious oppression, from a government run by a man/men full of themselves and their own expression of power. 

Our Congress still opens with prayer, and I support this because I like the idea that people leading our country recognize that they are not the end-all be-all in the universe, but that there are more significant forces at work.  I don't really want someone in office who makes him/herself his/her own god.

::scratches head::

So if someone does not believe in a higher power, that means they see themselves as god?  I'm very confused.

Not everyone believes in a higher power, and I don't see how that makes them less of a leader.  Even if they do believe in a higher power, per our Constitution church/faith should not play a role in the governance of this country.