Trying to Get Pregnant

UO Thursday


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Bring on the nutella wars!


TTC since June 2010.
DX hypothyroidism, pituitary hyperfunction, and PCOS.
On med/treatment break indefinitely. Not currently trying.
Lots of love to all of my Golden Girls!
The Vagtastic Voyage
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«13

Re: UO Thursday

  • OMg, that is fantastic!!
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  • I don't like The Bachelor or The Bachlorette. I think if I saw a friend or family member on the show I would be very embarrassed to know them. If you have to go on a TV show to get married then you are a shameless attention whore & I automatically wonder why you can't maintain a relationship. Why do people like it so much?

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me. If you participate actively then you are a post whore. If you post sparingly then you don't do enough to GTK the community? I don't understand. 


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  • imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me.

     

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    TTC since June 2010.
    DX hypothyroidism, pituitary hyperfunction, and PCOS.
    On med/treatment break indefinitely. Not currently trying.
    Lots of love to all of my Golden Girls!
    The Vagtastic Voyage
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic
  • imagetairairat:

    I don't like when UO Thursday has a no food or celebrity UOs rule for that week.  I like the lighthearted comments that come with people saying they don't like nutella or certain music.  ::cough:: Adele ::cough::

    In the spirit of that I think if you've never had Cheerwine you've never really lived. Wink 

    This is not from me, Adele asked me to pass it along-
    (I love her, saw her live last year in DC/at the 930 club right before her VB crapped out. Amazing show!)

    adele

  • Lolli, there you are! I feel like I haven't seen you around lately. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. Wink

    Once again, I don't have a UO. But, I'll still agree that nutella is amazeballs. Stick out tongue 

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  • I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.
     TTC#1 Since April 2011 
    BFP#1 5.23.12 C/P 4w4d 
    BFP #2 10.1.13
    EDD June 10, 2014
    image
    imageimageimage
  • imageLollipopsAndCrisps:
    imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me.

     

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    Yeah I know. It is what it is. I guess I have to own it. ;) 


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  • imagetairairat:
    imagelovelyday39:
    imagetairairat:

    I don't like when UO Thursday has a no food or celebrity UOs rule for that week.  I like the lighthearted comments that come with people saying they don't like nutella or certain music.  ::cough:: Adele ::cough::

    In the spirit of that I think if you've never had Cheerwine you've never really lived. Wink 

    This is not from me, Adele asked me to pass it along-
    (I love her, saw her live last year in DC/at the 930 club right before her VB crapped out. Amazing show!)

    adele

    I should clarify, I like Adele's music.  I sing along every time it comes on the radio.  I mentioned her because at one point bashing her music was a huge thing with UO Thursday.  Which might be why the semi-ban on food and music was instituted. 

    Ah, gotcha. :) Well, Adele says this gif is for the rest of you bishes that bash her. XO

  • Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    Married BF 6/29/2002/
    TTC Since Aug 2011/
    ME:34 all clear/DH:41 DX Severe MFI/
    IVF w/ICSI OCT 2012 Stims started 10/8/ER 10/19/12/ET 10/24/Beta#1 11/2=BFN (beta was 1.2)

    IVF 2.0-Baseline 11/7/12 beta 0/All Clear
    Stim start 11/7/12//ER 11/19 11M//10F
    ET 2 embies 11/24//Beta#1 28 Beta #2 23 Beta#3 29
    stop meds Beta#4 37/C/P 5W5D EDD:8/12/13/IVF#3 in Jan

    Ivf 3-frozen 3 poor 3day/fet=bfn

    Ivf#4 New dr. New protocol=beta1 197 beta#2 677 beta#3 1557
     u/s 8/13 =TWINS 2 strong hb
    Due Date 4/4/14

    image

    My Chart//>
    image
    image

    image

  • imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    Just curious, do you have pets?

  • imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me. If you participate actively then you are a post whore. If you post sparingly then you don't do enough to GTK the community? I don't understand. 

    image
     

    image
  • imagePrimRoseMama:
    imageLollipopsAndCrisps:
    imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me.

     

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Yeah I know. It is what it is. I guess I have to own it. ;) 

    Or you could stop being such a post whore. Just a thought. 


    TTC since June 2010.
    DX hypothyroidism, pituitary hyperfunction, and PCOS.
    On med/treatment break indefinitely. Not currently trying.
    Lots of love to all of my Golden Girls!
    The Vagtastic Voyage
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic
  • imagepostahoarus:
    imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me. If you participate actively then you are a post whore. If you post sparingly then you don't do enough to GTK the community? I don't understand. 

    image
     

    Awe. Not you Postahoarus! You are special & cute. ;) 


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  • imageLollipopsAndCrisps:
    imagePrimRoseMama:
    imageLollipopsAndCrisps:
    imagePrimRoseMama:

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me.

     

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Yeah I know. It is what it is. I guess I have to own it. ;) 

    Or you could stop being such a post whore. Just a thought. 

    I could.  


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  • imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    I'm very guilty of this as well!

  • imagePrimRoseMama:

    I don't like The Bachelor or The Bachlorette. I think if I saw a friend or family member on the show I would be very embarrassed to know them. If you have to go on a TV show to get married then you are a shameless attention whore & I automatically wonder why you can't maintain a relationship. Why do people like it so much?

    Also, the term post-whore annoys me. If you participate actively then you are a post whore. If you post sparingly then you don't do enough to GTK the community? I don't understand. 

    I really don't like these shows. I don't think any of these people really care about the bachelor/bachelorette I think it's just a competition to win. Also would you really want to marry someone that was making out with ten other girls the week before? I guess I just don't get it. 

    BFP 4/4/12 CP 4/10/12

    9/20/2013 Came home with our little miracle from the Philippines

    11/26/2013 Surprise!!! BFP!
    image

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  • imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Me: 32, DH: 45... TTC #1 since May 2010
    July - Nov 2011: Testing with OB... OB said everything looks good
    March - Sept 2012: Moved to RE.. 4 treatment cycles - responses of one or no follicles
    09.03.12: Diagnosed Poor Ovarian Response.. DE IVF only option
    Feb - Nov 2012: Pursued Adoption. That door slammed shut.
    12.23.12: Surprise BFP (first ever)... 12.25 - 12.31: Natural M/C
  • raeynraeyn member
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    I actually found myself encouraging my dog on our run last night, as though he could understand me. The guy running towards me gave me a super weird look. 

    Edit: resize pic

    image
    imageimage
  • imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Well said! My dogs are my babies! 

    BFP 4/4/12 CP 4/10/12

    9/20/2013 Came home with our little miracle from the Philippines

    11/26/2013 Surprise!!! BFP!
    image

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  • imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    Me too. I mean, yea, my dog and cat aren't my children by any means...but they get the best treatment/food/vet care, etc.

    In that respect, I think that people who believe getting a puppy will prepare them for having children are complete dumb dumbs. We get a lot of those types at my work. "Oh, this is my fiance, we just bought a puppy to prepare us for when we're actually parents!" Confused 

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  • imageanastasiacarmen:

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    People who say "I treat my cat like my child bc she is my child" confuse me. I love my cats and I would be so very upset if something happened to one of them but if my son was allergic those cats would be gone so fast it wouldn't be funny (to a loving home but gone).  When people say that I think to myself "Would she seriously consider picking her cat over her kid"! No you won't (unless you were a nut job of high caliber) so don't say your cat is just like your baby!

    I disagree with this immensely. I would look to alleviate symptoms vs. ditching my animals. I won't say I treat them like my children, but I made a commitment to love them & shelter them until they die. I might be a "nutjob of the highest caliber" but I take my commitment to living beings in my home seriously.

    Also, studies show living with animals reduces allergy risks. The pediatrician actually was very happy that we have more than one. 


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  • imagelovelyday39:

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    Just curious, do you have pets?

    Yes, I do. I have a dog and love him and he's well taken care of. I'm probably guilt of it to a degree, but I don't refer to myself as mommy it my H as daddy. I should probably clarify what bugs me and it's mostly when people are like "Monny loves you!".  

     TTC#1 Since April 2011 
    BFP#1 5.23.12 C/P 4w4d 
    BFP #2 10.1.13
    EDD June 10, 2014
    image
    imageimageimage
  • imagebeachbum4304:
    imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Well said! My dogs are my babies! 

    Yup, they are my first/second born... 

  • imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

     Well said! image
    Married BF 6/29/2002/
    TTC Since Aug 2011/
    ME:34 all clear/DH:41 DX Severe MFI/
    IVF w/ICSI OCT 2012 Stims started 10/8/ER 10/19/12/ET 10/24/Beta#1 11/2=BFN (beta was 1.2)

    IVF 2.0-Baseline 11/7/12 beta 0/All Clear
    Stim start 11/7/12//ER 11/19 11M//10F
    ET 2 embies 11/24//Beta#1 28 Beta #2 23 Beta#3 29
    stop meds Beta#4 37/C/P 5W5D EDD:8/12/13/IVF#3 in Jan

    Ivf 3-frozen 3 poor 3day/fet=bfn

    Ivf#4 New dr. New protocol=beta1 197 beta#2 677 beta#3 1557
     u/s 8/13 =TWINS 2 strong hb
    Due Date 4/4/14

    image

    My Chart//>
    image
    image

    image

  • imageanastasiacarmen:

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    People who say "I treat my cat like my child bc she is my child" confuse me. I love my cats and I would be so very upset if something happened to one of them but if my son was allergic those cats would be gone so fast it wouldn't be funny (to a loving home but gone).  When people say that I think to myself "Would she seriously consider picking her cat over her kid"! No you won't (unless you were a nut job of high caliber) so don't say your cat is just like your baby!

    I would never pick an animal over a kid, but my dogs are my furbabies. Judge away Wink
    Married BF 6/29/2002/
    TTC Since Aug 2011/
    ME:34 all clear/DH:41 DX Severe MFI/
    IVF w/ICSI OCT 2012 Stims started 10/8/ER 10/19/12/ET 10/24/Beta#1 11/2=BFN (beta was 1.2)

    IVF 2.0-Baseline 11/7/12 beta 0/All Clear
    Stim start 11/7/12//ER 11/19 11M//10F
    ET 2 embies 11/24//Beta#1 28 Beta #2 23 Beta#3 29
    stop meds Beta#4 37/C/P 5W5D EDD:8/12/13/IVF#3 in Jan

    Ivf 3-frozen 3 poor 3day/fet=bfn

    Ivf#4 New dr. New protocol=beta1 197 beta#2 677 beta#3 1557
     u/s 8/13 =TWINS 2 strong hb
    Due Date 4/4/14

    image

    My Chart//>
    image
    image

    image

  • imagericecakes1216:
    imagelovelyday39:

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    Just curious, do you have pets?

    Yes, I do. I have a dog and love him and he's well taken care of. I'm probably guilt of it to a degree, but I don't refer to myself as mommy it my H as daddy. I should probably clarify what bugs me and it's mostly when people are like "Monny loves you!".  

    Ok, totally understand where you are coming from now LOL! The post was so short I was left going hmmmmmmm.....

     

  • imageJustWonderin805:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    Me too. I mean, yea, my dog and cat aren't my children by any means...but they get the best treatment/food/vet care, etc.

    In that respect, I think that people who believe getting a puppy will prepare them for having children are complete dumb dumbs. We get a lot of those types at my work. "Oh, this is my fiance, we just bought a puppy to prepare us for when we're actually parents!" Confused 

    JW so funny you said that, my husband would use that line when we would be asked 99x a week when/if we were having children. He would kid and say eh, we are starting with the dogs and working our way up. Yea not even close to taking care of a baby. I am thinking maybe people say that when they never really took care of anything? lol
    Married BF 6/29/2002/
    TTC Since Aug 2011/
    ME:34 all clear/DH:41 DX Severe MFI/
    IVF w/ICSI OCT 2012 Stims started 10/8/ER 10/19/12/ET 10/24/Beta#1 11/2=BFN (beta was 1.2)

    IVF 2.0-Baseline 11/7/12 beta 0/All Clear
    Stim start 11/7/12//ER 11/19 11M//10F
    ET 2 embies 11/24//Beta#1 28 Beta #2 23 Beta#3 29
    stop meds Beta#4 37/C/P 5W5D EDD:8/12/13/IVF#3 in Jan

    Ivf 3-frozen 3 poor 3day/fet=bfn

    Ivf#4 New dr. New protocol=beta1 197 beta#2 677 beta#3 1557
     u/s 8/13 =TWINS 2 strong hb
    Due Date 4/4/14

    image

    My Chart//>
    image
    image

    image

  • imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Thank you.

    I met a girl at a Christmas party a few years ago. She proceeded to tell the story about how her brand new yorkie puppy killed itself eating ornament hangers (SHE LEFT ON THE FLOOR!) She said if the dog was that stupid she didn't need it around any way, isn't that soooo funny, hahahHAHAhaha........

    I was like WTF is wrong w/you?! I had to walk away b/c I was overwhelmed w/the urge to cold *** her.

  • imagemitzidanny:
    imagebeachbum4304:
    imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Well said! My dogs are my babies! 

    Yup, they are my first/second born... 

    My coworker wasn't able to have kids so her dog is her baby and she refers to her as her baby. Good for her. I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

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  • imagelovelyday39:
    imageBlsd4given:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    Picture removed for space purposes... But... ROFL... That's awesome.

    FWIW, I am guilty of it too.

    My UO... I hate it when people treat their pets like they're disposable accessories or burdens - instead of living creatures that deserve love, attention, and proper care.

    Thank you.

    I met a girl at a Christmas party a few years ago. She proceeded to tell the story about how her brand new yorkie puppy killed itself eating ornament hangers (SHE LEFT ON THE FLOOR!) She said if the dog was that stupid she didn't need it around any way, isn't that soooo funny, hahahHAHAhaha........

    I was like WTF is wrong w/you?! I had to walk away b/c I was overwhelmed w/the urge to cold *** her.

    OMG bump you just p*ssed me off. COLD:

    ***!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • imagericecakes1216:
    Yes, I do. I have a dog and love him and he's well taken care of. I'm probably guilt of it to a degree, but I don't refer to myself as mommy it my H as daddy. I should probably clarify what bugs me and it's mostly when people are like "Monny loves you!".  

     I can agree with the bolded. But I do treat my dogs like people - all day, every day.

    siggy warning

    image

    Anniversary

    Me:29 DH:30
    TTC since 10/11
    HSG, BW, Ultrasound, SA, Genetic testing, Karyotype - all normal
    DX - Unexplained IF
    3/13-9/13 - 2 Clomid IUIs & 3 Injectable IUIs - All BFN
    Cycle 25 - IVF w/ antagonist protocol - ER 11/18 (11R, 9F) - ET 11/23 (1 "good" early blast) - none left to freeze - BFN
    Cycle 26 - IVF w/ antagonist protocol  - ER 1/17 (12R, 11M, 8 F) - ET 1/22 (2 "good" expanded blasts) 
    2 frosties - Beta 2/4 - BFP! 2104, 2/7 -  4780, ultrasound 2/12 - holy shiz, there are 2!
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  • The terms "preggers" and "prego" really bother me. I don't why, but they drive me crazy.

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  • imagePrimRoseMama:
    imageanastasiacarmen:

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    People who say "I treat my cat like my child bc she is my child" confuse me. I love my cats and I would be so very upset if something happened to one of them but if my son was allergic those cats would be gone so fast it wouldn't be funny (to a loving home but gone).  When people say that I think to myself "Would she seriously consider picking her cat over her kid"! No you won't (unless you were a nut job of high caliber) so don't say your cat is just like your baby!

    I disagree with this immensely. I would look to alleviate symptoms vs. ditching my animals. I won't say I treat them like my children, but I made a commitment to love them & shelter them until they die. I might be a "nutjob of the highest caliber" but I take my commitment to living beings in my home seriously.

    Also, studies show living with animals reduces allergy risks. The pediatrician actually was very happy that we have more than one. 

    Just my two cents on this, my son is allergic to cats and dogs, but only ever has a reaction around other people's pets.  He face plants into our cats at least once a day.

    I'm very lucky though, some of the alternatives for severely allergic kids are daily medication, confining pets to specific rooms, lots of costly hypoallergenic products not to mention the air filtering and cleaning.  So as hard as it is to give up a pet, sometimes I think all involved would be happier in the long run. Just saying.

    PCOS Dx 12.08 / BFP! 4.22.10 DS1 born 1.4.11 DS2 born 6.19.13
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  • Sorry for the lack of quotes-my phone won't let me quote.

    Diva- that picture is adorable. 

    JW- I totally agree. When you get a pet you make a commitment to give them quality care. Trust me I've spent a ton on vet bills when a lot of people would have thrown the dog out. I would never dispose of my dog and he gets awesome treatment. He just doesn't sleep in my bed or sit on my furniture and I don't compare him to a baby. I have a friend who compares her digs to children all the time and believes she will be the best parent or offer patenting advice because she has digs.seriously no joke. 

     TTC#1 Since April 2011 
    BFP#1 5.23.12 C/P 4w4d 
    BFP #2 10.1.13
    EDD June 10, 2014
    image
    imageimageimage
  • imageMrsJ723:

    The terms "preggers" and "prego" really bother me. I don't why, but they drive me crazy.

    It's UNpopular opinion Thursdays, MrsJ. That's a quite popular one. Wink 

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  • imagerrdiva1:
    imageJustWonderin805:
    imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    Me too. I mean, yea, my dog and cat aren't my children by any means...but they get the best treatment/food/vet care, etc.

    In that respect, I think that people who believe getting a puppy will prepare them for having children are complete dumb dumbs. We get a lot of those types at my work. "Oh, this is my fiance, we just bought a puppy to prepare us for when we're actually parents!" Confused 

    JW so funny you said that, my husband would use that line when we would be asked 99x a week when/if we were having children. He would kid and say eh, we are starting with the dogs and working our way up. Yea not even close to taking care of a baby. I am thinking maybe people say that when they never really took care of anything? lol

    I really think so. Usually it's the younger couples (mid 20's-early 30's) that are either newly married or engaged that will come into my work and gush about how they just got Max or Susie from a shelter, and that they're starting off with a dog/cat/bird or what have you before they start having kids. (I work at a pet boarding facility, just so people don't think I have random strangers coming up to me to tell me about their pets Stick out tongue)  

    They usually know very little about the breed of dog/cat they have, what kind of food it should eat, how much energy their pet has, etc.. It's like they were going to a shelter or pet store looking for an animal like they would go to Crate&Barrel looking for a new set of dishes.  

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  • imagerrdiva1:

    Embarrassed

    imagericecakes1216:
    I hate when people talk/treat their pets like they're humans.

    I am so guilty of this....<3

    image

    Love it! 

    I am so guilty of treating my pets like kids, cause let's face it they are my kids. They are completely dependent on me for their wellbeing, I am responsible for them so I am going to treat them like my family. DH is also guilty of it. And no we do not own a pet stroller, I draw the line there.

     

     

    *Losses mentioned*
    Me: 34 DH:32
    TTC #1 since Dec 2011
    HSG = tubes clear, bicornuate or septate ute; MRI= severe arcuate uterus no septum seen 
    SA #1 low count, low morph;  SA#2 4% Morph, count OK  SA#3 july 2014= NORMAL!!!
    9/2013  IUI#1 w/Clomid 100mg = over response; cycle converted to cryoocyte IVF
    IVF #1: 9/15 ER= 9 mature eggs, all eggs made it thru vitrification
    10/23 ICSI 6 fertilized; 10/28 5dt of two morulas. Hold on to me babies, stick, stick, stick!!
    11/6 BFP EDD 7/14/14 Beta #1= 18; 11/9 Beta #2= 44.8; 11/12 Beta #3= 7 = Early loss @4w6d. No frosties
    Feb 2014 Hysterscopy = no septum seen ute all clear in the inside
     IUI #1.1 4/2/14 Beta on 4/16 BFN
    Thinking about IUI #2  RE advised to try 3?????
    Natural cycle surprise BFP 8/3/14 EDD 4/11/15  beta#1(8/5/14)=35 Beta#2(8/8/14)=22  CP/Early loss@5w
    PAIF/SAIF Welcome
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  • There is a serious overuse of gifs and pictures floating around these days.
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  • imagepinkflipflops44:
    There is a serious overuse of gifs and pictures floating around these days.

    WHAT?!

    No such thing.

  • imagepinkflipflops44:
    There is a serious overuse of gifs and pictures floating around these days.

    I agree. Especially when you know a poster will answer a thread with a gif or picture.  

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