Getting sent to the office

katmacwv

DD got sent to the office a couple of days in row 2 weeks ago for disruptions at nap time.  She and some of the other non-nappers were crawling under the tables, giggling, etc., so I completely agree with sending her to the office.  At that time, we warned her if she did it the second day, she wouldn't get to go to gymnastics that second evening and she did it anyway.  We took away toys, cartoons, etc., and I bribed her by saying that if she didn't get in trouble for the remaining 3 days of the week, I would go to school and have lunch with her.  I fulfilled my end of the bargain.  Now, it seems the same problem has arisen.  DH doesn't think we should let her go to gymnastics tonight, but since we didn't tell her that was a punishment for that "crime", I'm not sure whether to take that away.  Cartoons are definitely gone, and we'll be talking to her again, but it is hard to find anything that gets through to her.  The rest of the day at school she is fine, but staying quiet at nap time when she isn't tired is clearly a big issue.  WWYD?

jlw2505

I'm sorry but I disagree with taking away gymnastics for something she did at school.  You are not the ones that need to enforce her behavior at naptime while she is at school - that is schools job and giving her a punishment hours later doesn't mean a thing to her.  I would talk to school to see what they are doing to reinforce the positive behavior that they are after.  Do the kids have books to look at during the quiet time?  My younger DD's class has a pet bunny so many times, the reward for positive behavior is to help give the bunny a carrot or something along those lines.  I do believe that it is your job to remind your DD about how she should be behaving at school and give her suggestions of things she should be doing during naptime but it is 100% on the teachers to enforce the rules and give out punishment that they feel fit.  Sorry but taking away gymnastics or anything really is not going to work since they are not relate and hours apart.  What happens at school, stays at school - in the sense of dealing with things like this - reinforce the rules but her getting punished twice (office and no gymnastics) is not going to work.

cecee36

I agree with your husband 100%.  Just because your daughter wasn't notified that gymnastics would be taken away "this time" shouldn't be a big enough reason to let her go.  I always keep in mind what Dr. Phil says: you have to figure out what your child's "currency" is and if gymnastics is her "currency" (i.e. favorite thing) you have every right to use it as a disciplinary method.  After all, isn't that how the real world works?  You don't get paid if you don't do your job.  At her age, her job is school and her currency is anything she finds enjoyable whether it be a weekly gymnastics class or her favorite TV show after dinner.  

We take whatever we have to take from our daughter ANYTIME there is a disruption at school.  Fortunately, it doesn't happen often but we are extremely consistent with it and we are constantly reminding our daughter of what our expectations are of her where school is concerned.  We also ask her what she thinks she should do at school to be successful and she has no trouble following through.  We also let her teacher know that if she has a problem with our daughter, once notified, we will do our very best to make sure that we are working on it at home as well.  School is the absolute one thing that we give our daughter no wiggle room on.  She seems to have gotten the message.   

jsugrin

I think the gymnastics thing could go either way since you've used it in the past but honestly I don't think in general it's a good consequence.  What is she allowed to do at nap time?  Is she expected to lay on mat and stare at the ceiling for an hour + while the other kids nap or is she allowed to sit in the reading area with some books, have some attention in some way?  At 4 I think it's totally normal to not be napping and I think it's the schools responsibility to ensure that she is stimulated in a proper way during the nap time.  She can not be the only non-napper.  The crawling around is a direct result of her being bored and being asked to do something unreasonable (I'm assuming they expect the kids to entertain themselves otherwise I find it hard to believe they'd be under the tables). 

Were it my child I'd be working with the school on finding an acceptable behavior for her.  They need to set her up for success, and it doesn't sound like they are doing that. If I really felt the need to address this at home in a disciplinary manner I would take away the cartoons when you get home and I'd start a reward chart where you make her earn gymnastics.  It sounds like she goes twice a week, or is it once?  For every day that she behaves during nap time she gets to put a sticker on her chart and if all of her stickers are full then she gets to go to gymnastics.  That's more likely to help keep her on track, it's more consistent in terms of staying on her mind (although I'll be honest if she's able to think about how her actions mid day will effect the rest of her day then she's got a much higher emotional IQ then most 4's).

But really, this is only going to stop for good when the school is able to keep her body and mind busy during that time.

KatFCo

jlw2505:

I'm sorry but I disagree with taking away gymnastics for something she did at school.  You are not the ones that need to enforce her behavior at naptime while she is at school - that is schools job and giving her a punishment hours later doesn't mean a thing to her.  I would talk to school to see what they are doing to reinforce the positive behavior that they are after.  Do the kids have books to look at during the quiet time?  My younger DD's class has a pet bunny so many times, the reward for positive behavior is to help give the bunny a carrot or something along those lines.  I do believe that it is your job to remind your DD about how she should be behaving at school and give her suggestions of things she should be doing during naptime but it is 100% on the teachers to enforce the rules and give out punishment that they feel fit.  Sorry but taking away gymnastics or anything really is not going to work since they are not relate and hours apart.  What happens at school, stays at school - in the sense of dealing with things like this - reinforce the rules but her getting punished twice (office and no gymnastics) is not going to work.

I have to disagree with this. Although it is important to find out what she's supposed to do during naptime (my DD is expected to lay on her cot quietly even if she's not sleeping), teachers need to know parents have their back. One of the reasons kids act up in schools is because the parents don't reinforce behavior at home. My daughter was having difficulty being poite to teachers and classmates just before she turned 4, so we talked to her at home, reminded her of the consequences and a few times talked to her with the teacher there. We made sure she knew what the consequence was and were consistent about it. It took a week, but she learned.

I would say since she didn't know it was a consequence, it's not fair to take it away, but have a talk with her and make sure she knows this is the consequence from now on (or whatever you choose). Reinforce it each day when she goes to school and tell the teachers what it is so they can remind her, then each day, ask her about how she did.

jerol

jlw2505:

I'm sorry but I disagree with taking away gymnastics for something she did at school.  You are not the ones that need to enforce her behavior at naptime while she is at school - that is schools job and giving her a punishment hours later doesn't mean a thing to her.  

Sorry but taking away gymnastics or anything really is not going to work since they are not relate and hours apart.  What happens at school, stays at school - in the sense of dealing with things like this - reinforce the rules but her getting punished twice (office and no gymnastics) is not going to work.

 

I am sorry, but I disagree with this.  As a teacher, this type of thinking infuriates me. 

Yes, the teacher is in charge during the day but my children need to know that I support the efforts of their teachers.  

When we have had problems at school we discuss expectations every night before bed and every morning before they leave.  We have seen improvements just from these reminders.

We have had to take things away before.  But when we had a consistent problem we would make a chart.  Every day that they acted appropriately (ie stayed on their mat during nap or whatever the behavior is) she gets a sticker.  After a set amount they get a reward.  I have found that the positive works better than the negative.

As for specific question, I do not think they need warning that something is going to be taken away so I agree with your husband.  However, I would not take away gymnastics because it is exercise that they need.......and our classes are expensive  

Ciarrai

Ok, I'm going to be the really obnoxious one who says I don't think a 4-year-old should be sent to the office for being disruptive at naptime.  That is something the teacher should be able to handle.  I generally don't think that preschoolers really ever need to be sent to the office unless it's a major offense and probably something that they will be sent home for.  As some of the others mentioned, what are kids who don't nap expected to do?  Do they have books?  Quiet toys?  Have you asked your daughter why she's being disruptive?  Talked about things she could be doing instead crawling under tables?  I like the positive reinforcement - get 3 days of not getting in trouble and she can pick out a prize in the Target dollar bins or whatever, but I don't know how much I'd punish for it.  Can you schedule a meeting with the teacher and ask what's happening and what she's doing about?  Then maybe you can come up with strategies together to help her stay quiet at nap?

FWIW - The four-year-old class at our preschool doesn't have naps and the teacher reads books to them while they sit on towels or lay down.  The three-year-old class has quiet time for 45 minutes where about half nap and half read books or play with quiet toys/color/whatever.  They just have to stay on their mats and can't talk or play with each other.

KathrynMD

-auntie-:

I'd be looking at this more holistically.

The concept of an enforced nap at 4+ years of age is as inappropriate as expecting them to read Shakespeare. It's just not what fours can do. A school that expects this and then disciplines it with a trip to the office doesn't seem to have an effective curriculum for this age group nor a proactive approach to managing their behavior. This would be a huge red flag for me in terms of it being a suitable educational placement. Is this a day care setting? Are "teachers" getting breaktime while the kids are supposed to nap?

I do not discipline at home for in school offenses unless they are character issues. This is not lying, cheating or unkindness- and as such would be on the school to manage on their watch.

ITA - this is a school/classroom management issue IMO and I have never heard of a child being "discplined" by being sent to the office.  If some of the kids can't/won't take naps, they need to come up w/ a better solution than sending them to the office.

ElopeToHawaii

I think you can take gymnastics away tonight.  Your daughter knows that there are consequences for not behaving.  She doesn't have to know specific consequences in advance to understand that.

As for the comments about nap time not being enforceable...I'm not sure I agree with that.  My daughter is 4 and she either naps or stays quiet.  Going to the office isn't so much a punishment as the only thing they can do with distruptive kids.  Usually staff ratios are lower at nap time and they can't have a few kids distrupting the naps of others.  In my daughter's class, about 1/2 the kids still take a nap, including her some times.  If she is disruptive, a "sad note" comes home to us.  If she's awake but quiet we get a "happy note."

I think you should ask her teacher now long nap time is and what suggestions she has for your daughter to stay quiet if she's not napping.  I would also ask that her nap mat be moved away from the other girls she likes to talk to (hopefully they have already done this).  Kids rarely get in trouble for this kind of thing on their own, it's usually a group of them that get each other started.  Once you know what's expected of your daughter at school you can work with her on it at home.  It doesn't sound like it's a problem for her everyday, so clearly she can handle it some days.  What's going on during the days she can't?

katmacwv

As a follow up, we decided that since DD originally lied to DH about whether she got in trouble yesterday, the combination meant no cartoons, no playing and no gymnastics for the night.  However, if she is good today and tomorrow, she gets to do the make up class tomorrow.  I'm going to make cookies tonight, and she knows if she is good today, she gets to help with the cookies (something she LOVES).  I'm not of the belief that if she misbehaves at school there will be no repercussions at home.  A number of people in my family are in education, and that certainly would not have flown in my house growing up.

I spoke with the teachers this morning and they apparently told DD that if she was quiet on her mat for 10 minutes that they would give her a book, but she kept crawling over to another boy's mat and keeping him from napping.  Because her antics keep the other kids from sleeping, that is why she ends up in the office.  This is an accredited program at a day care, so it isn't like there are big kids in the office with her.  I pointed out to the teacher that DD has not concept of a 10 minute time span without a digital clock to follow, and the teacher mentioned possibly getting an egg timer so DD can hold it and see when the 10 minutes is up.  That may work better, but if things don't turn around soon, I'm gong to have to go to the director.  I really don't understand the 10 minutes of being on her mat to "earn" a book since the teachers in the 2 previous classes would give her a book from the start or even let her color quietly while the other kids slept.

They do have reward charts at school and for each day they are good at nap time, they get a sticker.  If they have 3 stickers at the end of the week, they get to pick something from the treasure box.  Sometimes that is enough incentive and other times not.

LucyPevensie

-auntie-:

I'd be looking at this more holistically.

The concept of an enforced nap at 4+ years of age is as inappropriate as expecting them to read Shakespeare. It's just not what fours can do. A school that expects this and then disciplines it with a trip to the office doesn't seem to have an effective curriculum for this age group nor a proactive approach to managing their behavior. This would be a huge red flag for me in terms of it being a suitable educational placement. Is this a day care setting? Are "teachers" getting breaktime while the kids are supposed to nap?

I do not discipline at home for in school offenses unless they are character issues. This is not lying, cheating or unkindness- and as such would be on the school to manage on their watch.

Thank you!  I'm reading this thread and saying "huh?!" to myself.  This is koo koo to me.  They're FOUR, not ten.  My just over 3 year old rarely naps anymore.  If she can't nap because her body just doesn't do that anymore - then she and the other "troublemakers" should be at a quiet coloring table with a teacher or in a quiet reading corner (again, with a teacher.)  Sent to the office?  Punished at home?  No gymnastics for being a  normal 4 year old?  Goofy.  I get that if they don't have another space for the gigglers to be quietly supervised they're sending them to the office - fine - that's the only space they have for them.  But this is NOT a punishable offense IMO.  This is silliness.