Why I Care About Your Unnecessary Medical Procedures

Heather R · December 2011

Well, share your sources with us, pp, since you clearly know more. I like how you didn't respond to anything I said.

MegGary · December 2011

I just want to appologize to everyone else for driving up your health insurance costs by visiting the ER when my husband & I can't get into the visiting nurses clinic. We are uninsured & if they aren't available or can't see us when we are sick enough we visit the ER. Well only once when my husbands entire body turned so red, close to purple in some areas after throwing up violently & calling every clinic in the county to get him in to be seen. No one would see him & everyone just kept saying, go to the ER. Which we finally did & found out that he had a drug interaction from his prescription medicines.

Just wanted to apologize for that.

Heather R · December 2011

MegGary:
I just want to appologize to everyone else for driving up your health insurance costs by visiting the ER when my husband & I can't get into the visiting nurses clinic. We are uninsured & if they aren't available or can't see us when we are sick enough we visit the ER. Well only once when my husbands entire body turned so red, close to purple in some areas after throwing up violently & calling every clinic in the county to get him in to be seen. No one would see him & everyone just kept saying, go to the ER. Which we finally did & found out that he had a drug interaction from his prescription medicines.
Just wanted to apologize for that.

er, this sounds like an emergent situation anyway. We are talking about people going to urgent care when their kids have a sore throat.

MegGary · December 2011

I do want to add that I say that seriously. Not joking.

RedCardinal · December 2011

Heather R:
Premiums are driven up by use of ER's as primary care, obesity and its related conditions and treatment, smoking and its related problems, and the actual rising costs of actual medical care and medical technology (which in turn reflects doctors' malpractice insurance that tort reform has failed to control). I know there are other factors, of course.

Roughly half the population is female. Roughly 20% of women never have kids. Of the difference, then, roughly 30% have c-sections. This resulting number is not dramatically influencing your premium, lol. Especially in comparison to the nearly 70% of overweight Americans. Moreover, NIH stats demonstrate only a 2% elective c/s rate. So what you suggest about costs isn't happening.

If you'd talked about the potential side effects on kids (like asthma) and how those drive up costs, you might have more of a leg to stand on. But I don't know that such data exists, since no one can definitively prove c/s cause asthma or anything else.

ultimately, what most drives up insurance costs is the fact that insurance is a for-profit entity. I notice a bit of suspicion in your post directed at doctors... This ideology is as much to blame as anything, since it fuels lawsuits that turned ob's trigger-happy with c-sections.

Also, since when is pain management (epidural) elective? Is it elective for cancer patients, too? Surgical recoveries? Or is it just women you throw under the "I don't want to pay for you" bus? Eta: I have some mean insomnia tonight. Boo.

Love this.

<<<<< Had two C-sections because my body would not dilate. Every body and every birth is different. ( I was in labor for 24 hours and I only got to 5 cm.)

BelleIsa · December 2011

ashleysyn2:
hopkins5:

I can guarantee the American public was in no way affected by my epidural and c-section.

<-- Canadian

Seriously though, Heather R nailed it.

Canada is better. Free health care.

If by free you mean that you pay for it through your taxes, then yeah. Health care is NOT free in Canada, you just don't see a bill. But, the hospital bills the government, and the government pays. Who pays the government? We ALL do. So, the more and more healthcare costs go up - the more your taxes will go up.

We face the same problems here (rising costs due to obessity & smokers) as in the states - it's just a little more 'hidden' I guess.

MrsDe2008 · December 2011

ashleyatjewell:
I cannot believe that someone would try telling me they've 'done their research' by telling me to 'go google it'.

::headdesk::

LOL I thought the same thing. Google knows EVERYTHING ya know! If it was googled, then it must be right!

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

I'm glad that some women chose to make this into an educated discussion (as it should be) rather than simply complain that they should go kill themselves to lower health care costs or some other such garbage.

This is not a small thing. We're talking about 25-35% of American women having unnecessary c-sections, at an increased cost of $5,000/birth. Plus each additional birth, due to the VBAC situation. (Also, insurance carriers are trying to figure out how to charge increased premiums to women who have c-sections b/c of the risk they won't get a VBAC). This adds up, for those middle class Americans struggling to pay the rising costs of their medical insurance. It adds up for those who are teetering on the line of not being able to pay for health insurance at all. We have no idea what the actual cost is to the American public of all the unnecessary medical procedures being done at birth. But you can't honestly say there isn't added cost, and that it doesn't have an effect on those who can't really afford to pay for health care anyways. So the "I'm just going to go kill myself" or "oh I saved you so much money" stuff is really missing the point here.

As for the snarky comments about my "natural birth" agenda, I didn't have a natural birth. I had an injection of a narcotic in my hep-lock. But yes, I didn't have an epidural. My son was a month early. My bag had torn early, I was bleeding, and my Dr. had to break my water. There was no way I should have been able to deliver him without all sorts of medical intervention. I did, thanks solely to my doula. My son was flipped, and I was having cluster contractions for hours. The nurses were livid I insisted on a hep lock, and they didn't know what was happening/why I wasn't progressing/how to help. My Dr. kept telling me I was going to have to be hooked up to an IV and have pitocin. I refused. I had made no progress for 8 hours (seriously, sitting at a 1 for about 8 hours), but was in a lot of pain because of him being flipped/cluster contractions. My doula showed up, got him flipped through changes of position, and within 45 minutes I was at a 7. I was in a lot of pain and had a narcotic. My son was crowning when my Dr. rushed in the room 30 minutes later.

Several nurses and one of the pediatricians said I probably avoided NICU by not having an epidural. I don't know enough about all of this to know whether that's true--but the nurses and doctors know more than I do.

But that was me. I appreciate that some c-sections are necessary. And some epidurals, for pain management! (I was in a lot of pain, I understand). And that every birth is different. For some, maybe the epidural was necessary, and I'm glad they had the option. But for many, it's not. For many women having c-sections, it's not. And someone is paying for it. That's the point.

kerribear1717 · December 2011

So unless any of us on TB went into the hospital demanding a c-section, then it's really up to the doctors. Why don't you go find a board full of OBs to go preach to? My overweight @ss had no pregnancy complications, not even a single day of high blood pressure, had an uncomplicated vaginal birth and paid good $$$$ for my epi.

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

MrsDe2008:

ashleyatjewell:
I cannot believe that someone would try telling me they've 'done their research' by telling me to 'go google it'.

::headdesk::

LOL I thought the same thing. Google knows EVERYTHING ya know! If it was googled, then it must be right!

Why would you assume I researched by googling? That's not what I meant. When I researched a natural birth, I consulted lots of books about this. By people who have researched it and have sources to back it up. I'm not going to go haul them all out. I'm just sharing what I learned.

I meant to go google to figure out that this IS driving up healthcare costs--b/c people were accusing me of making this up. You can easily figure this out by googling. That's the point.

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

No, you're missing the point.

We've had this discussion already. We had it a year ago when most of us were still in 3rd Tri.

We've talked this topic to death and it is not changing people's minds.

I mean, really, if anyone's mind changed because of a random internet person with no real studies or anything to back up their claims, then that anyone needs to take a Bumpcation.

So you need to take the stick out.

Merry Christmas.

Rach21 · December 2011

What an insurance grinch. Guess what? Whether you get a C/S or not, it still all comes from the same premium pool. Whether you get 2 ultrasounds (all our insurance would pay for) or 5 (my brother & SIL's insurance), I'm still thankful that insurance covers what would be EXTREMELY difficult for most people to pay. I'd never been sick other than the occasional sinus infection or strep throat in all the 10 years I've been paying for my Blue Cross Blue Shield. And you know what? I don't freakin' care if that money I wasn't using went to lighten the load for someone else. My emergency C/S alone would have been over $20k had I not had insurance. The 9 months of care + the 14 months of subsequent immunizations and doctors' visits for my son would have probably driven us to the poor house without it. So, in the spirit of Christmas, I say THANK YOU to my insurance providers and pay my monthly premiums with gratitude.

BelleIsa · December 2011

ashleysyn2:
BelleIsa:
ashleysyn2:
hopkins5:

I can guarantee the American public was in no way affected by my epidural and c-section.

<-- Canadian

Seriously though, Heather R nailed it.

Canada is better. Free health care.

If by free you mean that you pay for it through your taxes, then yeah. Health care is NOT free in Canada, you just don't see a bill. But, the hospital bills the government, and the government pays. Who pays the government? We ALL do. So, the more and more healthcare costs go up - the more your taxes will go up.

We face the same problems here (rising costs due to obessity & smokers) as in the states - it's just a little more 'hidden' I guess.

Yes, that is what I meant. And I still voted to keep my high taxes and healthcare.

ETA: And I was also trying to make a joke about how the "Canada is better" debate always comes up when talking healthcare.

Oh, well, Canada IS better in regards to healthcare. Is that even a debate?

My UO : I sometimes begrudge/slightly hate people who are obese and use up lots of healthcare (while eating McDonalds and drinking 4 L of coke everyday) driving up the cost of healthcare for everyone, thus my taxes. Also people who get lung cancer because they smoke - get treated and cured - AND THEN KEEP SMOKING AND THEN GET CANCER AGAIN. STAY AWAY FROM MY TAX MONEY BIIITCHES!

I realise that probably makes me a fascist-conservative. But it just bugs me.

There - that should deflect the thread from c-sections. (Although I DO think the rate is pretty high in north america... doesn't that midwife Ina May Garten have a 3% c-section rate at her centre? Why is her rate so low?)

RedCardinal · December 2011

ChristinaD09:
(Also, insurance carriers are trying to figure out how to charge increased premiums to women who have c-sections b/c of the risk they won't get a VBAC).

This sentence made me laugh. Do you have research to support this statement? Having a repeat C-Section isn't elective. It is the mother's choice to NOT go through a VBAC because she had major complications etc. VBACS can be dangerous too.

OP- I'm glad you go your natural birth and all, but don't judge C-sections momma's that could not give birth naturally and opted for a C-section the second time around.

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

justbeachy109:
Wait. Are you saying that epidurals = NICU?

Nope. I said I don't know why they said that, just that they did.

Heather R · December 2011

ChristinaD09:

And some epidurals, for pain management! (I was in a lot of pain, I understand). And that every birth is different. For some, maybe the epidural was necessary, and I'm glad they had the option. But for many, it's not.

SOME pain management is ok, lol. Pain patches for SOME cancer patients, but others are totes good without it.

You apparently get to make the call over what is necessary and what is not, from surgery to medication.

I ask again for your sources.

Your move, Surgeon General.

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

RedCardinal:
ChristinaD09:

(Also, insurance carriers are trying to figure out how to charge increased premiums to women who have c-sections b/c of the risk they won't get a VBAC).

This sentence made me laugh. Do you have research to support this statement? Having a repeat C-Section isn't elective. It is the mother's choice to NOT go through a VBAC because she had major complications etc. VBACS can be dangerous too.

OP- I'm glad you go your natural birth and all, but don't judge C-sections momma's that could not give birth naturally and opted for a C-section the second time around.

Not judging. The insurance companies are. I'm stating fact.

BelleIsa · December 2011

EllaHella:
ChristinaD09:

As for the snarky comments about my "natural birth" agenda, I didn't have a natural birth. I had an injection of a narcotic in my hep-lock. But yes, I didn't have an epidural.   There was no way I should have been able to deliver him without all sorts of medical intervention. I did, thanks solely to my doula.

Several nurses and one of the pediatricians said I probably avoided NICU by not having an epidural. I don't know enough about all of this to know whether that's true--but the nurses and doctors know more than I do.

And some epidurals, for pain management! (I was in a lot of pain, I understand). And that every birth is different. For some, maybe the epidural was necessary, and I'm glad they had the option. But for many, it's not.

You can't seriously read this and tell me there is no natural agenda at play, especially the bolded.

If a woman determines she would like an epidural, it becomes necessary. You don't get to take that choice away from other women.  We have worked very hard to own our bodies and make choices for our bodies. We should have dominion over our own body and our own choices, not someone else. As a natural birth advocate, you can surely agree about that.

Meh- I can see where the OP is going with this.

Birth is a scary thing, and it used to be that women giving birth were surrounded by women (mothers, aunts whatever) who had 'been there done that'. They were at home in a comfortable setting. They had support and encouragement.

Now we're in hospitals, and unless you have a midwife and doula, you're alone with your DH who has no idea about babies coming out of vaginas and who is probably freaking out at seeing you in pain, thus making you freak out.

There is a lot to say about how the 'energy' is different, and how this can affect a woman's ability to progress on her own (because she's not relaxed enough, whether this is because the hospital in and of itself is a freaky place, or because she's getting freaked out vibes from her DH or because the only other person with her is the nurse, who comes in once every 30 minutes to ask whether or not she wants her epi now). Sure, some women may have completely valid medical reasons for a c-section - but surely some of you can see how the 'birth setting' now can negatively affect the birth process, consciously or subconsciously?

I don't agree with all the OP is saying, but I can see where she's coming from.

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

Well, as long as it doesn't raise insurance costs...

quidditchcapn1120 · December 2011

ChristinaD09:
MrsDe2008:

ashleyatjewell:
I cannot believe that someone would try telling me they've 'done their research' by telling me to 'go google it'.

::headdesk::

LOL I thought the same thing. Google knows EVERYTHING ya know! If it was googled, then it must be right!

Why would you assume I researched by googling? That's not what I meant. When I researched a natural birth, I consulted lots of books about this. By people who have researched it and have sources to back it up. I'm not going to go haul them all out. I'm just sharing what I learned.

I meant to go google to figure out that this IS driving up healthcare costs--b/c people were accusing me of making this up. You can easily figure this out by googling. That's the point.

First, you haven't posted any sources of your information other than telling us to do an Internet search that would take .008 seconds. Sorry, that doesn't negate the 12+ years of school that OB's do after high school not to mention the years of experience. It also doesn't negate the years of actual research public health officials do to figure out what the answer to rising healthcare cost is. My guess (although I'm not going to claim to know, because I'm not the expert you claim to be) is that elective c/s is very little of this problem. Why don't you post your sources since you are so sure of your research? It sounds like your books might be a little biased.

In interest of full disclosure, I had an induction turned vaginal delivery. I avoided the epi until hour 20, when I was still stuck at a 3. I requested the epi in order to avoid a section if possible, and then I started to progress. Walla, within another 8 hours I was holding my baby. If you can use personal anecdote, so can I- my epi was obvs necessary for me to dilate completely.

Heather R · December 2011

RedCardinal:
ChristinaD09:

(Also, insurance carriers are trying to figure out how to charge increased premiums to women who have c-sections b/c of the risk they won't get a VBAC).

This sentence made me laugh. Do you have research to support this statement?

eh, women are already charged more to insure. Being female is a pre-existing condition, lol. So that (again) defeats OP's argument.

RedCardinal · December 2011

ChristinaD09:
RedCardinal:
ChristinaD09:

(Also, insurance carriers are trying to figure out how to charge increased premiums to women who have c-sections b/c of the risk they won't get a VBAC).

This sentence made me laugh. Do you have research to support this statement? Having a repeat C-Section isn't elective. It is the mother's choice to NOT go through a VBAC because she had major complications etc. VBACS can be dangerous too.

OP- I'm glad you go your natural birth and all, but don't judge C-sections momma's that could not give birth naturally and opted for a C-section the second time around.

Not judging. The insurance companies are. I'm stating fact.

Links ? I'm pretty interested because my friend's doctor wouldn't even discuss a VBAC with her .... so the insurance companies must not be trying too hard.

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

Fact: Bears, beets, Battlestar Gallactica.

aforst · December 2011

EllaHella:
ChristinaD09:

As for the snarky comments about my "natural birth" agenda, I didn't have a natural birth. I had an injection of a narcotic in my hep-lock. But yes, I didn't have an epidural.   There was no way I should have been able to deliver him without all sorts of medical intervention. I did, thanks solely to my doula.

Several nurses and one of the pediatricians said I probably avoided NICU by not having an epidural. I don't know enough about all of this to know whether that's true--but the nurses and doctors know more than I do.

And some epidurals, for pain management! (I was in a lot of pain, I understand). And that every birth is different. For some, maybe the epidural was necessary, and I'm glad they had the option. But for many, it's not.

You can't seriously read this and tell me there is no natural agenda at play, especially the bolded.

If a woman determines she would like an epidural, it becomes necessary. You don't get to take that choice away from other women.  We have worked very hard to own our bodies and make choices for our bodies. We should have dominion over our own body and our own choices, not someone else. As a natural birth advocate, you can surely agree about that.

This. Seriously. In what universe does one person get to determine for another when an epidural is "necessary" or not?? People have different pain tolerances. This is a slippery slope. Should it be up to the dr's to determine who should/should not receive one? I can see how that would go over nicely. "I understand you are in pain, but we don't believe it's really necessary for you to get the epidural."

You clearly wanted to be able to make decisions for yourself during your labor. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that you think it's ok to force women to choose what they can and cannot do when it comes to their bodies, based on "necessity".

Heather R · December 2011

BelleIsa:

Meh- I can see where the OP is going with this.

Birth is a scary thing, and it used to be that women giving birth were surrounded by women (mothers, aunts whatever) who had 'been there done that'. They were at home in a comfortable setting. They had support and encouragement.

Now we're in hospitals, and unless you have a midwife and doula, you're alone with your DH who has no idea about babies coming out of vaginas and who is probably freaking out at seeing you in pain, thus making you freak out.

There is a lot to say about how the 'energy' is different, and how this can affect a woman's ability to progress on her own (because she's not relaxed enough, whether this is because the hospital in and of itself is a freaky place, or because she's getting freaked out vibes from her DH or because the only other person with her is the nurse, who comes in once every 30 minutes to ask whether or not she wants her epi now). Sure, some women may have completely valid medical reasons for a c-section - but surely some of you can see how the 'birth setting' now can negatively affect the birth process, consciously or subconsciously?

I don't agree with all the OP is saying, but I can see where she's coming from.

women and infants died in those rosy, supportive, childbirth-friendly environments.

Rach21 · December 2011

CinemaGoddess:
Fact: Bears, beets, Battlestar Gallactica.

YES!!!

BelleIsa · December 2011

Heather R:

women and infants died in those rosy, supportive, childbirth-friendly environments.

Ummm, yes. That's why I'm happy to live in a time when c-sections are available to those who really need it.

I never said I was against c-sections

Personally, I think the rate is high, but again, I'm happy there's the option for those who would loose their babies or their own lives without it.

I was just trying to think out loud about how maybe the environment we give birth in today leads to more sections than necessary.

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

I have nothing further to contribute, so here's Rob Lowe playing air banjo.

memali26 · December 2011

Heather R:
BelleIsa:

Meh- I can see where the OP is going with this.

Birth is a scary thing, and it used to be that women giving birth were surrounded by women (mothers, aunts whatever) who had 'been there done that'. They were at home in a comfortable setting. They had support and encouragement.

Now we're in hospitals, and unless you have a midwife and doula, you're alone with your DH who has no idea about babies coming out of vaginas and who is probably freaking out at seeing you in pain, thus making you freak out.

There is a lot to say about how the 'energy' is different, and how this can affect a woman's ability to progress on her own (because she's not relaxed enough, whether this is because the hospital in and of itself is a freaky place, or because she's getting freaked out vibes from her DH or because the only other person with her is the nurse, who comes in once every 30 minutes to ask whether or not she wants her epi now). Sure, some women may have completely valid medical reasons for a c-section - but surely some of you can see how the 'birth setting' now can negatively affect the birth process, consciously or subconsciously?

I don't agree with all the OP is saying, but I can see where she's coming from.

women and infants died in those rosy, supportive, childbirth-friendly environments.

Yep. And the "birth setting" isn't what caused me to need an epidural - it was being stuck at 4 cm after nearly 30 hours of labor, with pitocin and 2 round of cervidil, and a baby who was sunny side up causing horrific back labor and not dropping. I could have had every woman I know in that room supporting and encouraging, but they couldn't help me dilate or stop the jaws of life style pain in my back.

With the second baby, it was another sunny side up, back labor situation, but that epidural failed anyway. Maybe the insurance company should give me my money back on that one...

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Womans-Guide-Better-Birth/dp/0399525173/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569692&sr=8-14

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Best-Birth-Discover-Experience/dp/B0058M5K96/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-10

https://www.amazon.com/Birthing-Within-Extra-Ordinary-Childbirth-Preparation/dp/0965987302/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-7

https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Partner-Complete-Childbirth-Companions/dp/1558323570/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-6

https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Childbirth-Bradley-Way-Revised/dp/0452276594/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-2

I read all of those. The info is prob. a mix from all of them.

Insurance trying to charge more/not pay for VBAC: https://www.ims2007.org/c-section-rate-impact-on-health-insurance/

the last sentence was especially on-point:

The women who become uninsurable or have to pay higher premiums, or those who have to look all over their state in an effort to find a VBAC provider ? while suffering from pregnancy signs and symptoms, are on the losing end. So are doctors and hospitals, who are essentially forced to take insurance costs as well as the best medical interest of the patient into account when making decisions. And then there are health insurers, who are paying for all these initial c-sections. Perhaps it is time for something to change, in everybody?s interest.

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

ChristinaD09:

https://www.amazon.com/Ina-Mays-Guide-Childbirth-Gaskin/dp/0553381156/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-3

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Childbirth-Bradley-Way-Revised/dp/0452276594/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324569920&sr=8-2

These two are in absolutely no way biased.

Not at all.

Nope.

KJmashup · December 2011

ChristinaD09:
Insurance trying to charge more/not pay for VBAC: https://www.ims2007.org/c-section-rate-impact-on-health-insurance/

the last sentence was especially on-point:

The women who become uninsurable or have to pay higher premiums, or those who have to look all over their state in an effort to find a VBAC provider ? while suffering from pregnancy signs and symptoms, are on the losing end. So are doctors and hospitals, who are essentially forced to take insurance costs as well as the best medical interest of the patient into account when making decisions. And then there are health insurers, who are paying for all these initial c-sections. Perhaps it is time for something to change, in everybody?s interest.

About Insurance Magazine (www.ims2007.org):

"As UK based insurance intemediarys ourselves, we have discovered the benefits of publishing our niche specific insurance news to a wide online audience. As such the doors are now open to You to join us in making Insurance Magazine a well read ezine."

Therefore, I can't find much value in anything this "publication" says.

ChristinaD09 · December 2011

https://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/national-c-section-rate-highest-ever-study-says-11553

I'm done posting information for you. You can go research on your own, if you care. which I'm sure most of you don't, given your reactions.

This is why I don't bother posting on here. thanks for reminding me

CinemaGoddess · December 2011

ChristinaD09:

https://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/national-c-section-rate-highest-ever-study-says-11553

I'm done posting information for you. You can go research on your own, if you care. which I'm sure most of you don't, given your reactions.

This is why I don't bother posting on here. thanks for reminding me

Can you call one of us Hitler so we can get the trifecta of DoYourOwnGoogling/GBCB/Godwin's Law?

Kthxbai.

quidditchcapn1120 · December 2011

OP, I was all for natural birth too, at first. I read many of those same books. But as I read them, I saw that although they were claiming to be anti-agenda other than the health of the mom and baby, they really did have their own bias too. It simply wasn't based on sound science. Do I think a med-free and natural burth can be relatively happy and pleasant. Absolutely. Do I think this is always possible while still maintaining patient autonomy and keeping mom and child healthy? No, it's not. That is fact. Why do you think infant and mother mortality rates have decreased in times if increased medical technology?

Hesterlicious · December 2011

CinemaGoddess:
I have nothing further to contribute, so here's Rob Lowe playing air banjo.

The handle is too short. It must be a ukelele

jlthompson19 · December 2011

ChristinaD09:

As for the snarky comments about my "natural birth" agenda, I didn't have a natural birth. I had an injection of a narcotic in my hep-lock. But yes, I didn't have an epidural. My son was a month early. My bag had torn early, I was bleeding, and my Dr. had to break my water. There was no way I should have been able to deliver him without all sorts of medical intervention. I did, thanks solely to my doula. My son was flipped, and I was having cluster contractions for hours. The nurses were livid I insisted on a hep lock, and they didn't know what was happening/why I wasn't progressing/how to help. My Dr. kept telling me I was going to have to be hooked up to an IV and have pitocin. I refused. I had made no progress for 8 hours (seriously, sitting at a 1 for about 8 hours), but was in a lot of pain because of him being flipped/cluster contractions. My doula showed up, got him flipped through changes of position, and within 45 minutes I was at a 7. I was in a lot of pain and had a narcotic. My son was crowning when my Dr. rushed in the room 30 minutes later.

Several nurses and one of the pediatricians said I probably avoided NICU by not having an epidural. I don't know enough about all of this to know whether that's true--but the nurses and doctors know more than I do.

But that was me. I appreciate that some c-sections are necessary. And some epidurals, for pain management! (I was in a lot of pain, I understand). And that every birth is different. For some, maybe the epidural was necessary, and I'm glad they had the option. But for many, it's not. For many women having c-sections, it's not. And someone is paying for it. That's the point.

So, you risked the life of your unborn child to save us all from higher insurance costs? Thanks?

ANJ410 · December 2011

OP, what drives up health care costs way more than c-sections is:

- Repetitive Tests. People go to one doctor who orders tests, then go to another doctor who does not have access to the patients medical records and orders the same tests again for their records. I am not going to get political on here, but Obama had the right idea about creating a database that stores all of the patients medical records throughout their life and can be pulled up by any doctor at any time simply by typing in the patient's SS number.

.- Obesity. People in our country have adapted the most disgusting eating habits. Fast food, prepared foods and soda have become an everyday part of so many people's lives, especially in low income and uneducated families. Their bodies don't get the proper nutrition they need and it leads to obesity and a lifetime of bad health.

- lack of public health insurance. There are milllions of families in this country who have no health insurance, therefore do not go for regular check ups and wait until they are extremely sick before seeing a doctor. Often they don't discover life-threatening conditions until its too late and need the most expensive treatments. When they can't cough up the money to pay, it raises the premiums for the rest of us.

Your epidural stance makes you sound like an idiot. Those of us who pay for our health uinsurance, and pay a pretty penny for it, have the right to decide if we want our hard earned money to go towards an epidural.

Also, yes, the rate of c-sections has gone up in this country, but the rate of stillborn births and women dying during childbirth have gone down. 64 years ago my MIL was delivered breech and the doctor had to dislocate her arm and break her shoulder bone to get her out. It caused nerve damage and she has had limited use of her right arm all of her life. How sad! Her arm was perfectly alright during development and would have been alright if her mother had a c-section. That would NEVER happen today because doctors foresee potential birth hazzards and choose to proceed with c-sections and deliver healthy babies!

It's great for you that you had an uncomplicated vaginal birth, but what about the rest of us!

kehgirl · December 2011

Here is a dissertation from a friend of DH's. Its on VBACs. It has ACTUAL citations and references. Its slightly related to what you guys are talking about in this thread. I thought it was mildly interesting. I removed the names on the coverpage for privacy.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27288426/VBAC.pdf