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Another s/o: do you support or oppose kids saying the Pledge of Allegiance?
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Re: Another s/o: do you support or oppose kids saying the Pledge of Allegiance?
I'm mostly indifferent. They do not do it at ds' private school, they did recite it in the public school he attended.
An aside that I find funny: we have one particular elementary school here in town with a HUGE foreign student population (this is a large university town and the on-campus family housing- mostly foreign families- is within this particular school's boundaries.) Anyhow, my best friend's ds attends this school and they also say the pledge daily which I find a bit ironic considering that such a large portion of the class are citizens of different countries. (I think that about 1/3 of the students are ESL.)
I'm indifferent. I'm sure my kids will be exposed to it if we send them to the public schools here (TN). I'm not sure the private schools do it - his Catholic preschool does not do it. They do pray, obviously.
I'll tell them they're welcome to opt out if they want to do so.
I don't care for it.
it should not be mandatory, but I don't care if they do it.
I DO think that if you're going to teach it that the actual meaning behind the recitation should be part of the lesson, not just a memorization of words.
I feel like I got my ass handed to me over this topic and my opinion once before...
now everyone is all meh over it?
fvckers!
ETA: I don't care if other people do it- I would prefer my kids NOT do it. I don't want them pledging their allegiance to any country.
Geez, it would be so much easier if they would just omit the 'under God' part.
In any case, I support schools that do the Pledge, but I do not support making kids say it. I don't care if they say the whole thing, part of it, or none of it - but if the pledge is taking place, at least stand up and show some respect for the country's unity and liberty.
And I agree with Edith that they should teach the meaning of it if the kids are going to recite it.
David "BD" 2/8/07 Spencer 9/12/11Support. I believe that children should be taught loyalty to their country. We are so lucky to be here and to have the freedoms we have.
Amen!
I'm ambivalent about it. I don't remember it ever inspiring me as a kid. Seems so much more appropriate when getting your citizenship, for example...essentially pledging that the US is now your chosen home and new nationality.
For schoolkids...educating about the value of liberty and freedom seems more productive than a mumbled pledge.
I am for everyone making their own choice on that. I honestly find pledging "allegiance" to be a sort of creepily nationalistic concept in and of itself, but I can appreciate the value of the tradition behind it. For what it's worth, I adore this country for it's natural beauty, but its history and the politics are often an embarrassment to me.
I used to say the pledge every morning as a kid; I'm not so sure I'd say it now.
I don't really care. If my kids say it, they say it. If not, no big deal.
When I was in school it was starting to be 'ok' to opt out of it. The problem was that people were opting out of it for the wrong reasons. It got to the point by the end of the school year where no one would stand up and say it.
LOL.
LOL +1
We do it in my class. I sometimes say it, sometimes do not. My rule is that you need to stand and be respectful - no talking (unless you are saying the pledge.) My daughter says it in her class. We do teach about it in June.
I do think it can sound creepy to "pledge allegiance" but I don't really think of it that way. I think of the people fighting for my freedom. I think of it as time to show respect to our flag. There could be better words, but I think "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" are pretty good words.
meh, I really don't care either way. I'm not vehemently opposed to it, and I'm not in the mandatory camp, either. We said it every day in school, but I think it's just as important to teach kids the reasons behind one's support of your country, rather than arbitrarily making them memorize a pledge.
I do think they should take out the "under God" part already since it was never in the original--would of kinda defied the purpose back then, huh?. It was only added during the whole Red Scare in the 50s McCarthyism era. And I think we're way beyond that now.
What's funny? That we are lucky? That we as Americans experience the ability to sit here and discuss openly the Pledge? That we have a voluntary military that fights for the freedom to do so? Sorry, I don't find that funny at all.
I think it's mostly because there are lots of countries that are just as good at offering these basic liberties (ok- so there are also countries that do not- but they are not unique to the states.)
the gays don't even have equal rights here, ffs. and our education and medical systems are a mess, and the poverty that is so rampant in a country with so much money- is sickening!
Im sure this post will garner the typical nationalist "Iffin' ye don't like it hurrr then juss go!" comment- but seriously. This is not the promised land. Its a country with its own problems, and I don't get all the american pride some people come up with.
LOL!
Not only this, but I also cringe at many elements of our history--they way the European settlers treated the Native Americans, the history of slavery and Jim Crow laws, our current attitude towards immigrants, etc.
Like I said, I am awed by the natural beauty of this country & I'm proud of those men & women who serve to protect our freedoms, but I agree w/ EBB that this is far from the promised land and when people get too nationalistic, its easy to forget the parts of our history that make us no better than other countries who have abused and persecuted their citizens.
If you are so angry with the state of the country then do something about it. Move, join a local government committee to change things, etc. don't just post that you are upset and then not act. I do not know if you have done those things but honestly, if you haven't it's like voting. I personally think that if you don't vote you loose your right to complain. It's that simple. So if you don't act and just sit around saying how crappy your country is then you need to hush.
As for American pride my husband fights for you to sit around and *** on a message board each day. He offers you the ability to say and do whatever you want. So you know what, maybe my views are skewed but I will forever be grateful to him and to the thousands of others that put their lives on the line so you can complain. I am proud to be an American citizen and consider myself blessed to live here.
I vote, I attend demonstrations and protests, I write to my congresspeople, and every Veteran's day, I call my father & thank him for his service during the Vietnam war (regardless of my views on war in general, or that war in particular). Your husband also fights for our right NOT to say the pledge if that is what aligns with our beliefs. And I am eternally grateful to him for that.
And honestly, I get that you feel passionately about this, but I think we're having a discussion, not "bitching" all day on a message board.
Hmm, I disagree with Edith and SBDC.
Yes, there are countries that have similar liberties, but I think the founding of our country and the documents that came from that are something to be proud of. There are moments in our history that are not something to be proud of, but I do find the way we have moved forward and evolved to be something to have pride in. I'm not going to lie, I think the way we transfer power, the way we are able to speak out and fight for what we believe in, our legal system - all of those things are things I have pride in. Even when there are things I disagree with (example: gay rights), there is a path to fight that and I'm proud to be a part of that and do it.
I don't know - just because someone else does something similar doesn't mean I'm not proud of it in myself, or my kids, or my country. I think MH is wicked smart, but he's not the only smart person on the planet. I'm still proud of him.
America, f*ck yeah!
Ditto!
Be aware that you are about to be LOL'd. It's uncool to have pride in our country and super uncool to be slingin' "Amen's" around. :oP
I think there's a huge difference between having pride in being an American and believing that the pledge of allegiance should be mandatory. I personally believe that allowing the pledge to be optional is a wonderful example of our freedom of speech.
Eclaires, I'm not saying there aren't a LOT of things to be proud of in our nation's history, but I think pledging absolute allegiance to a country necessitates brushing those "messy, unfortunate" parts of our history under the rug (at least for me) and I'm not comfortable with that.
Have you ever seen me care about what people think about me on here? I feel like I fight the oppisition all the time. This will not be the first time I have posted something similar. Really, no one sould be surprised by my POV.
To me, pledging allegiance to a country is a lot like getting married. Your spouse will never be perfect and probably has done things in their past to embarass or anger you, but you are still vowing to stand by them forever. Pledging allegiance doesn't mean 'brushing those "messy, unfortunate" parts of our history under the rug'; it means being faithful to a country regardless of those parts.
I agree totally with this. The American Revolution was the only revolution in history to successfully create a democratic nation that has lasted so long! The US comes up short when compared to certain nations because the US is more vast and diverse than, say, the Netherlands. And by the way, you want to see ignorant opinions of immigrants...take thyself to Western Europe and try out being Moroccan or Sudanese. And did you know for instance that in the Italian justice system you are guilty until proven innocent? Pick a "perfect" country and I'll show you a place the size of Virginia (if that) with a very homogeoous population.
yeah dude- exactly!! I am not going to pledge allegiance to stand by a country that denies basic rights to some, and protects the same for others. Im not pledging my allegiance to stand in support of a country that has become so corrupt that an illness can ruin them financially for life. IF they even get the care they need to survive their way into dep poverty.
Its like saying, geeze. My husband is a jerk and he doesn't live up to his responsibilities, he bullies other people, and he walks all over others- but he is the BEST husnband in the world. Here- lemme sing you a little song about him!
I think a better pledge would go thusly:
I pledge my honor to make the most of this country, to fight for justice and liberty for everyone DESPITE their differences and beliefs, to make this country a home for all of its citizens and to welcome change and advancement.
the pledge is a bunch of hooey as it stands. there is NOT liberty or justice for all. We are not a nation under "god" we are surely not indivisible. ask the republicans! They're out for no one but themselves!
awww, yeah- Im taking it there~!
but really.
no.
God, I love you.
Jerms, if this were a different country, we could get married with our love. Too bad we have to live in the best one in the world instead.
See, I don't know what to do about this. The problem is that I get what you are saying. But at the same time, things are not perfect anywhere else either.
I still count myself lucky that I was born American, if for no other reason, because of we have the freedom to right the wrongs. It takes years and years of people protesting, working, screaming to change it though.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend that America doesn't have issues.... and BIG ONES. But at the end of the day, I am still proud to be an American because of people who fight to right the injustices created by ignorance or tradition or religion or whatever.
yeah. I feel ya. but I guess...and maybe this is just the sort of person I a, or the sort of mindset I have- I feel lucky to live here and not, say...egypt right now- I recognize how much worse things can be- and are.
but I still am not going to be all amerrka! eat my crap world! we rule!
because I feel like it's ok here.
I feel like it is near impossible for change to happen, because of the way our system (doesn't) work. (why only two parties are represented, why must we fight and battle and fillibuster our way to a pointless compromise?)
I feel like our problems are not so much about america not being great as much as americans suck. I mean, living in kansas I am reminded of how much they suck frequently.
If one more white person leans in and makes a "black people" comment to me- like we're sharing white people secrets- Im gonna flip my burgers, y'all.
we're a backwards bunch making up a majority- and I am not proud of that, or of being born someplace geographically that I had no control over.
I feel like Im in a club that embarasses me and Im too entwined to get out!
It's hard to be intelligent and progressive and live in Kansas...and you live in a relatively progressive area. Case in point, the last time we went to visit my cousins (who live in KC), we got stared at and some lady actually said to me "Y'all are such good people to give that poor little black child a home!" Sweet jesus. Fcuking rednecks.